Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 So I recently went from being agnostic to being a lukewarm Christian again and it largely has to do with new friends that I have made and new changes in my lifestyle that made life a lot more enjoyable. I say lukewarm because I'm not a fervent Christian and rarely make a sacrifice for God or pray and certainly don't have much confidence in God. One of the things is I have met some really amazing Christians for the first time in my life that don't judge others and have unconditional love for even the most unlovable people out there. And they don't believe in this idea of eternal punishment. So, that still leaves the issue of God being extremely violent and unjust in Scripture, especially the Old Testament. Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over. 2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun. We are sin. It is just naturally what we do and who we are. So we are attracted to despicable behavior. SO in the Old Testament people were barbaric. They loved war. They had many Gods for themselves and those Gods were warrior Gods and God's of wrath and Gods that one approached with fear and trembling and had to do be obedient to in order to avoid punishment. So they were expecting a God who demanded respect. That was the God they wanted. So he became what the people would most respect with the goal to eventually lead them away from that and to lead them to the greatest commandment which is charity. It's sort of like, if you are going to a violent ghetto to lead the people to a more civilized and higher quality of living, and the ghetto follows some Tupac cult or Tupac is everyone's hero, the best way to lead the people and earn their respect is to become Tupac. That is my favorite explanation. It isn't perfect, but it helped me more than the others. Have you heard that explanation? Do you have any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Another thing I like about these new Christian friends of mine is they will voice their dislike for what some in fact most Christians believe about God to them. We were at a Bible study and there was this Calvinist leading the Bible study who said God made vessels of righteousness and vessels of wrath to be destroyed. Meaning the vessels of righteousness are predestined for heaven...the vessels of wrath are predestined for hell and to glorify God by being defeated and destroyed. Immediately one of them said that is gross! How, is that fair for any of the people that God created for hell. They didn't choose to be that way so why should they be destroyed and suffer forever for God making them that way. He said, "if that is our God, I don't want to know him, don't want to spend time with him, certainly don't want to worship him or have anything to do with such a God." I thought that was cool. Then I chimed in and said, "yeah, that's disgusting". And the leader of the bible study turned red and looked a little distraught and said "I beg to differ". LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 22, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2014 Feel free to make up whatever you need to in order to make it work for you personally. As for us, we've been there and can't lie to ourselves any longer. Should you be inclined to think, be aware the mental gymnastics become very tiring eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Yeah. Well, I feel happier now that I have found some faith and I see the hand of God guiding myself and others. But still as I said im lukewarm and still have a distaste for Christianity in general and many unanswered questions. Also, many of these things that I recognize as "blessings" from God may just have to do with the fact that I live in America. If I was born in Haiti I might be starving to death in a gutter and riddled with diseases or buried under the rubble, so, im not waving the banner for Religion all that much just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 22, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over. 2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun. We are sin. It is just naturally what we do and who we are. So we are attracted to despicable behavior. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? Habakkuk 1:13 Thank you for pointing out yet another glaring contradiction in the scriptures. There is no possible way that god could have become sin in our stead when the bible plainly states that god cannot even abide the sight of sin. His holiness prevents the explanation you offer from being valid. Good try, though. Welcome to the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Yeah. Well, I feel happier now that I have found some faith and I see the hand of God guiding myself and others. But still as I said im lukewarm and still have a distaste for Christianity in general and many unanswered questions. Also, many of these things that I recognize as "blessings" from God may just have to do with the fact that I live in America. If I was born in Haiti I might be starving to death in a gutter and riddled with diseases or buried under the rubble, so, im not waving the banner for Religion all that much just yet. Hey if it works for you then enjoy it. If you want to stay a lukewarm Christian you should probably not hang out here. We are simply going in a different direction. You should find a liberal church or perhaps join a Unitarian Universalist church. I would stay away from those who focus on money because they will bite you in the wallet. I would try very hard to not think about reconciling God. In fact you should probably stop reading the Bible altogether. Trust your God-given moral compass and empathy. Enjoy your nice friends and thrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25YearsLater Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 We are sin. It is just naturally what we do and who we are. So we are attracted to despicable behavior. You speak for yourself - I'm not like that. I have plenty of flaws, and I make mistakes, which I try, moderately successfully, over time, to learn from. But I, and plenty of other intelligent, decent people, do not habitually and unavoidably do bad things, nor are we attracted to doing them. I simply do not buy this hand-wringing notion of sin. We have a morality that originated because cooperation leads to more successful survival in a hostile world, and which evolves as our civilisation changes. And we are imperfect people that don't always do what our ideals might mandate. But to extrapolate from there to anything that needs a redemptive sacrifice is bullshit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hi Ted! Your posts and your profile make interesting reading. As does your description of the barely-Biblical god you believe in. This god became sinful (despicable, warlike and barbaric) so that the OT Israelites would respect him..? Because their sinful natures would be more attracted to a sinful god - rather than to a good and just one..? And this god became sin to them - just like his NT counterpart..? . . . I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over. 2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun. We are sin. It is just naturally what we do and who we are. So we are attracted to despicable behavior. Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? Habakkuk 1:13 Thank you for pointing out yet another glaring contradiction in the scriptures. There is no possible way that god could have become sin in our stead when the bible plainly states that god cannot even abide the sight of sin. His holiness prevents the explanation you offer from being valid. Good try, though. Welcome to the forums. my response to that would be that God could not associated with sin until he became a man and took the sin upon himself and then suffered the punishment for that sin. Before he became a man that was not the case. When he was a man he was a prostitute magnet and a friend of adulterers, tax collectors, drunkards, heathens, and pagans and they were drawn to him. He was a disgrace to the religious folks of the time and they were the ones that wanted him dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hi Ted! Your posts and your profile make interesting reading. As does your description of the barely-Biblical god you believe in. This god became sinful (despicable, warlike and barbaric) so that the OT Israelites would respect him..? Because their sinful natures would be more attracted to a sinful god - rather than to a good and just one..? And this god became sin to them - just like his NT counterpart..? . . . I see. in the Old Testament God often changed his mind and compromised. he didn't originally want divorce but he compromised. polygamy also would not have been his first choice but he permitted s and my personal opinion was that it was to gain people's favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 And you're quite happy to put your (lukewarm) faith in such a changeable and capricious god, Ted..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 And you're quite happy to put your (lukewarm) faith in such a changeable and capricious god, Ted..?no not really. but it's no skin off my ass to make a request now and then or say thank you Lord when some thing good happens. a prayer seems to do me good now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Ah... I think I see 'who' your god is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Ah... I think I see 'who' your god is now. I have Biblical basis for my stance but when I see a genuinely good and just person , that is what I believe is the model that God would like to see imitating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 That's not the god I see when I read your posts, Ted. You referred to your god by name in post # 12. The thirty-third (33rd) word of your reply is your god's name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 ^^^^ BAA Not to be rude… but, why are you here? You seem to have found something that works for you. Then you come to an EX-christian site to… state your position? I'm happy if you have found some inner peace… but why come here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I just recently stopped being an ex Christian so just thought I would share my testimony a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 in the Old Testament God often changed his mind and compromised. he didn't originally want divorce but he compromised. polygamy also would not have been his first choice but he permitted s and my personal opinion was that it was to gain people's favor. Why does god have to compromise to gain people's favor? Is god a politician? The idea of god needing to compromise to gain people's favor seems blasphemous in most Christian worldviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 So I recently went from being agnostic to being a lukewarm Christian again and it largely has to do with new friends that I have made and new changes in my lifestyle that made life a lot more enjoyable. I say lukewarm because I'm not a fervent Christian and rarely make a sacrifice for God or pray and certainly don't have much confidence in God. One of the things is I have met some really amazing Christians for the first time in my life that don't judge others and have unconditional love for even the most unlovable people out there. And they don't believe in this idea of eternal punishment. So, that still leaves the issue of God being extremely violent and unjust in Scripture, especially the Old Testament. If being a lukewarm Christian works for you, then that is all fine and dandy, but I'm not entirely sure that your reasons for going back to Christianity are all that good (even for the brand you currently subscribe to). Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over. 2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun. We are sin. It is just naturally what we do and who we are. So we are attracted to despicable behavior. I'm not sure that this explanation is all that good. It appears to be an explanation that is designed to pander to the wishful thinking of believers, without actually demonstrating anything. If "sin" is not an action, but a noun, meaning that we really are naturally evil, then the question that should be asked is: "How did we get that way?" If we are "sin", meaning that we naturally are attracted to "despicable behavior", then we did not choose to be "sin". If we didn't choose to be this way, then perhaps "God" either intentionally designed us this way or we became this way as a punishment for the actions of some ancestors who have been dead for thousands of years (which is what Biblical literalists who believe in a literal Adam and Eve claim). If either of these possibilities are correct, then they both show that "God" is completely responsible for all of the harm humans cause. Perhaps when you said earlier on in your post, "I say lukewarm because I'm not a fervent Christian and rarely make a sacrifice for God or pray and certainly don't have much confidence in God", you have a very good reason to lack confidence in him. In fact, if either of the two possibilities I proposed are correct, then this being you call "God" should be met with hostility. SO in the Old Testament people were barbaric. They loved war. They had many Gods for themselves and those Gods were warrior Gods and God's of wrath and Gods that one approached with fear and trembling and had to do be obedient to in order to avoid punishment. So they were expecting a God who demanded respect. That was the God they wanted. So he became what the people would most respect with the goal to eventually lead them away from that and to lead them to the greatest commandment which is charity. As has already been demonstrated, you believe that we are "sin", meaning we are naturally evil. For that to be true, it would mean that being "sin" was no choice of ours. If the same was true for the Old Testament people, then they certainly did not choose to be barbaric or love war. If it was true for them, then they were designed to be barbaric, lovers of war. It would mean that they were nothing but robots who were programmed to be the way they were. If it is true that we are naturally evil, but did not choose to be that way, and the same was true for the OT people, then it's not that the OT people received the god they wanted, but that they received a god who designed them in his likeness and is just as despicable as they were (perhaps even more so for designing them the way he did and then punishing them for it in extremely barbaric ways). This explanation you offer does not appear to hold any weight. It appears to be nothing more than an idea that is meant to pander to the wishful thinking of believers. It's sort of like, if you are going to a violent ghetto to lead the people to a more civilized and higher quality of living, and the ghetto follows some Tupac cult or Tupac is everyone's hero, the best way to lead the people and earn their respect is to become Tupac. Given the issues I have raised, I'd say that your analogy fails. That is my favorite explanation. It isn't perfect, but it helped me more than the others. Have you heard that explanation? Do you have any thoughts? I can see why this explanation might appeal to you. I know that when I first started doubting and questioning, I would have loved to have found a way to excuse the behavior of Yahweh, one that made him appear to be a benevolent, wise entity, instead of a total psychopath. The explanation you offered would have seemed wonderful at the time, but the points that I have raised have shown that, not only is the explanation imperfect, but it is horribly flawed. I think that a much simpler explanation, one that makes a lot more sense, is that Yahweh is a man-made god who was designed in the likeness of those who created him. All of his personality traits were those of the humans who created him. Maybe it would be wise to rethink your position and reconsider your reasons for being a believer again. With all that being said, welcome to ex-C.net. You're certainly a breath of fresh air, compared to the types of Christians we are used to. Hopefully you decide to stick around for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 in the Old Testament God often changed his mind and compromised. he didn't originally want divorce but he compromised. polygamy also would not have been his first choice but he permitted s and my personal opinion was that it was to gain people's favor. Why does god have to compromise to gain people's favor? Is god a politician? The idea of god needing to compromise to gain people's favor seems blasphemous in most Christian worldviews. maybe but God actually did compromise a lot in Scripture that's just a fact Crazyguy I really liked what you have to say and I do not know what the answers are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Were you a lukewarm Ex-Christian, Ted? Or a fully committed one - that Hebrews 6 : 4 - 8 would have applied to..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 as an ex Christian I was very very disgusted with religion and being around the average religious person brought feelings of rage into my mind if that answers your question. crazy man, people have the ability to choose the right and wrong and most people have a fairly good grasp of what is good and what is evil, but human beings are naturally selfish and have desires that are very selfish sometimes a desire for pleasure, reputation, or power that in order to fulfill requires negative consequences to other people. it isn't that human beings are just evil and don't have any choice in the matter but human beings are naturally inclined to sin and can choose whether or not to follow those inclinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Crazyguy I really liked what you have to say and I do not know what the answers are. Apparently I wasn't entirely satisfied as I kept tweaking my post after I had already posted it. Anyway... If what I had to say at least got you thinking, then that is all I was hoping for. The best thing you can do is keep investigating and seeking answers to the questions you have. When you find possible answers that seem to be good answers, it would be a good idea to make sure that they are not too good to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tedbunnny Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Crazyguy I really liked what you have to say and I do not know what the answers are. Apparently I wasn't entirely satisfied as I kept tweaking my post after I had already posted it. Anyway... If what I had to say at least got you thinking, then that is all I was hoping for. The best thing you can do is keep investigating and seeking answers to the questions you have. When you find possible answers that seem to be good answers, it would be a good idea to make sure that they are not too good to be true. well how about this. I use the things you guys say to argue with my Christian friends. I have to confess that that was actually one reason I came here (not the main one though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 My question wasn't about your feelings, Ted. It asked if you thought that passage of scripture applied to you. Could you please answer? Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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