Reconciling The Violent God With A Loving God

[Guest tedbunnny]

Finding people who have 'changed' for the better is not that hard, and definitely not just a Christian thing…. go to any meeting of AA, NA or any other group/peer counselling thing.. weight watchers, whatever. Even EVERY religion on the planet has tons of people who've changed for the better because of… name it, it's been claimed. Scientology thrives on this actually.

 

It's amazing what people can do when they think they can, and with a little support. We are social animals, and do best when we work together.

 

The Old Testament is a myriad of syncretism (absorption of many religious concepts from the entire Mediterranean) starting with late paleolithic/early Egyptian and Canaanite theologies. THAT is why Yahweh seems to change his mind, also because he has evolved as society has.

 

So interesting that Christ was egalitarian (a Greek concept) during the HELLENISTIC period… that Japhtheth sacrificed his daughter during a time when that was a common practice, and that the Hebrews became conquerors (maybe) during a time of much turmoil and warfare in the middle east. You see nothing of compassion for others (outside the tribal unit) early on, but later there is (The good samaritan is one example) because the ROMAN world was multicultural… and the early Hebrews were insular. Do you get it yet?

 

The early Hebrews were also POLYTHEISTIC… and Asherah (Yahweh's consort) was prevalent until quite late.. funny, she was El's consort earlier (Canaanite father god) and also Baal's consort as well. Her figurines look almost identical to Astarte's or Innanna/Ishtar's  even... Ninhursag's. Same stance, same symbology…hmm….

 

You can NOT understand the Old Testament without understanding the culture of the area, and the beliefs that were prevalent at the time. Seeing it from our point of view is pretty much useless… because their mindset and world view was very different from ours.

YEs I have always and still do fear that you are right .  It may be that human beings added a lot of bullshit to it to jive with the culture of the time.  It might also be that God met the people who had the culture engrained into them so deep seatedly that God would not be able to keep them devoted to him without permitting the depravity of the culture and customs of the time.

 

When you say people added and made up stuff,   It honestly looks that way to me, but I don't know that I am right.  But honestly, it looks that way which I can't deny. 

 

Also, in all honesty, I'd like to think that is the case in so far as God was not the tyrant that people wanted him to be and thus portrayed him as.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

The God of the BIble clearly changed his views on circumcision when he decided that and other pieces of the OT law no longer needed to be followed

 

 

This changed because most adult men don't want to convert to a religion that requires a very painful and possibly life threatening procedure. Paul wanted to convert the uncircumcised gentiles so he had to alter his religion to be more appealing. That's why a lot of OT laws were dropped.

 

The bible is not written directly by god, nor does it claim to be. It's written by people who claim to have god's revelations. If god is changing his mind all the time and using people to communicate these changes, then how do you decide whose revelation to trust? Only the people in the bible? Muhammad made a lot of claims about god as well. Was the Quran god changing his mind again or just Muhammad pushing his views on people while claiming it to be god's revelation?

 

If god is changing his mind and using people to reveal his new thoughts, then there is no real way to decide who is telling us god's views and who is just using god's name to push their views onto others.

 

It is with a heavy heart and dissapointment that I can only muster, "I don't know". 

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

 

 

I'm busy at the moment so I will respond to the rest of you later.

 

I see repeatedly in the Bible God changes his mind as a result of intercession and I find a god who changes his mind and constantly changes to be uplifting.

 

it means that God is growing more tolerant and compassionate and understanding of us.

 

for instance, God doesn't like homosexuality or fornication.

 

however God has repeatedly seen homosexuals who are miserable and become happy when they fall in love with someone that they have genuine love for and companionship.

 

jesus never preached against homosexuality and even in the Old Testament there was far far more preaching against other vices and very little about homosexuality.

I've seen miserable men develop a gleam in their eye and a love for life when they get with a girl that they love deeply and are attracted to.

 

I think any father would rather have their child happy in a relationship as long as it's not a relationship where they are hurting each other but care deeply about each other and he knows that we are sexual creatures and it can be very healthy for our emotional and physical health to have a good lay and companionship.

You are making things up. You are making up in your head what you think God would think, but it's really just what YOU would think. There is no basis in the Bible for what you are saying.

 

I'm not making things up but I am blending my conscience of what is right and wrong and what Scripture says, which is what every theologion does as well though Im not a Theologian and I only read the Bible all the way through once and don't care to do it again. 

 

But here is some of my basis.  John 13 ³⁴ “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ³⁵ By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”  That was his primary commandment and one of his last things he said to his disciples before getting arrested.

 

He said All the Law and the Prophets hang on that commandment. 

 

So what is God's idea of love.  He went on to say what it is.  THose who entered paradise were those who eased the suffering of others:

 

Matthew 25

³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, ³⁶ I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

³⁷ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

⁴⁰ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

This is called "cherry picking". You are picking out the verses that suit your view, and ignoring what contradicts your views.

 

Actually, that was what Christ said the law was, and when people asked him what they must do to be saved , that was repeatedly the theme and imagry he gave.

[Orbit]

 

 

 

 

I'm busy at the moment so I will respond to the rest of you later.

 

I see repeatedly in the Bible God changes his mind as a result of intercession and I find a god who changes his mind and constantly changes to be uplifting.

 

it means that God is growing more tolerant and compassionate and understanding of us.

 

for instance, God doesn't like homosexuality or fornication.

 

however God has repeatedly seen homosexuals who are miserable and become happy when they fall in love with someone that they have genuine love for and companionship.

 

jesus never preached against homosexuality and even in the Old Testament there was far far more preaching against other vices and very little about homosexuality.

I've seen miserable men develop a gleam in their eye and a love for life when they get with a girl that they love deeply and are attracted to.

 

I think any father would rather have their child happy in a relationship as long as it's not a relationship where they are hurting each other but care deeply about each other and he knows that we are sexual creatures and it can be very healthy for our emotional and physical health to have a good lay and companionship.

You are making things up. You are making up in your head what you think God would think, but it's really just what YOU would think. There is no basis in the Bible for what you are saying.

 

I'm not making things up but I am blending my conscience of what is right and wrong and what Scripture says, which is what every theologion does as well though Im not a Theologian and I only read the Bible all the way through once and don't care to do it again. 

 

But here is some of my basis.  John 13 ³⁴ “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ³⁵ By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”  That was his primary commandment and one of his last things he said to his disciples before getting arrested.

 

He said All the Law and the Prophets hang on that commandment. 

 

So what is God's idea of love.  He went on to say what it is.  THose who entered paradise were those who eased the suffering of others:

 

Matthew 25

³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, ³⁶ I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

³⁷ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

⁴⁰ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

This is called "cherry picking". You are picking out the verses that suit your view, and ignoring what contradicts your views.

 

Actually, that was what Christ said the law was, and when people asked him what they must do to be saved , that was repeatedly the theme and imagry he gave.

 

You need to go back and read the words of Jesus in context. He said the law rests on that; but he does NOT say the law is invalid, or that you don't need to follow it. Jesus was a Jew. He observed the Torah. Nowhere does he say that you don't have to observe the Torah--nowhere. There are some verses that say you will be saved by your good works. There are contradictory verses that say no, you will be saved by your faith. Can't you see the elaborate rationalizations you are having to perform to believe this stuff? You twist it, call it "context", and end up precisely seeing what you want to see in certain carefully chosen verses.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm busy at the moment so I will respond to the rest of you later.

 

I see repeatedly in the Bible God changes his mind as a result of intercession and I find a god who changes his mind and constantly changes to be uplifting.

 

it means that God is growing more tolerant and compassionate and understanding of us.

 

for instance, God doesn't like homosexuality or fornication.

 

however God has repeatedly seen homosexuals who are miserable and become happy when they fall in love with someone that they have genuine love for and companionship.

 

jesus never preached against homosexuality and even in the Old Testament there was far far more preaching against other vices and very little about homosexuality.

I've seen miserable men develop a gleam in their eye and a love for life when they get with a girl that they love deeply and are attracted to.

 

I think any father would rather have their child happy in a relationship as long as it's not a relationship where they are hurting each other but care deeply about each other and he knows that we are sexual creatures and it can be very healthy for our emotional and physical health to have a good lay and companionship.

You are making things up. You are making up in your head what you think God would think, but it's really just what YOU would think. There is no basis in the Bible for what you are saying.

 

I'm not making things up but I am blending my conscience of what is right and wrong and what Scripture says, which is what every theologion does as well though Im not a Theologian and I only read the Bible all the way through once and don't care to do it again. 

 

But here is some of my basis.  John 13 ³⁴ “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ³⁵ By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”  That was his primary commandment and one of his last things he said to his disciples before getting arrested.

 

He said All the Law and the Prophets hang on that commandment. 

 

So what is God's idea of love.  He went on to say what it is.  THose who entered paradise were those who eased the suffering of others:

 

Matthew 25

³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ³⁵ For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, ³⁶ I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

³⁷ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

⁴⁰ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

This is called "cherry picking". You are picking out the verses that suit your view, and ignoring what contradicts your views.

 

Actually, that was what Christ said the law was, and when people asked him what they must do to be saved , that was repeatedly the theme and imagry he gave.

 

You need to go back and read the words of Jesus in context. He said the law rests on that; but he does NOT say the law is invalid, or that you don't need to follow it. Jesus was a Jew. He observed the Torah. Nowhere does he say that you don't have to observe the Torah--nowhere. There are some verses that say you will be saved by your good works. There are contradictory verses that say no, you will be saved by your faith. Can't you see the elaborate rationalizations you are having to perform to believe this stuff? You twist it, call it "context", and end up precisely seeing what you want to see in certain carefully chosen verses.

 

Jesus said what the law was.  He gave a new commandment.  Never did he say that salvation was dependant on the following of the OT stuff.  He may not have said it was irrelevent but certainly his followers came to that conclusion and where did he mention the importance of gentiles following laws that were given to the Jews.

 

Apparently he didn't want people to follow the OT customs because he said let the one who is without sin cast the first stone and he said not to return violence but turn the other cheek.

 

Radically different than the OT commandments.

 

He brought about a new covenant and a new commandment and a radically different philosophy.

[Guest tedbunnny]

Finding people who have 'changed' for the better is not that hard, and definitely not just a Christian thing…. go to any meeting of AA, NA or any other group/peer counselling thing.. weight watchers, whatever. Even EVERY religion on the planet has tons of people who've changed for the better because of… name it, it's been claimed. Scientology thrives on this actually.

 

It's amazing what people can do when they think they can, and with a little support. We are social animals, and do best when we work together.

 

The Old Testament is a myriad of syncretism (absorption of many religious concepts from the entire Mediterranean) starting with late paleolithic/early Egyptian and Canaanite theologies. THAT is why Yahweh seems to change his mind, also because he has evolved as society has.

 

So interesting that Christ was egalitarian (a Greek concept) during the HELLENISTIC period… that Japhtheth sacrificed his daughter during a time when that was a common practice, and that the Hebrews became conquerors (maybe) during a time of much turmoil and warfare in the middle east. You see nothing of compassion for others (outside the tribal unit) early on, but later there is (The good samaritan is one example) because the ROMAN world was multicultural… and the early Hebrews were insular. Do you get it yet?

 

The early Hebrews were also POLYTHEISTIC… and Asherah (Yahweh's consort) was prevalent until quite late.. funny, she was El's consort earlier (Canaanite father god) and also Baal's consort as well. Her figurines look almost identical to Astarte's or Innanna/Ishtar's  even... Ninhursag's. Same stance, same symbology…hmm….

 

You can NOT understand the Old Testament without understanding the culture of the area, and the beliefs that were prevalent at the time. Seeing it from our point of view is pretty much useless… because their mindset and world view was very different from ours.

Yes people are capable of major transformation.

 

I am however convinced that what I see is more than what the positive mutations of evolution gave humans.  I am convinced that what I see is the grace of God.  Some of it is the grace of God, some of it could be accomplished by the power of the human mind and heart.  I can't prove this nor do I speak about it with certainty but rather what I am convinced of.

 

This still isn't enough evidence for me that I will tell anyone they will go to hell if they continue doing what they do.  neither is it enough evidence to tell people what they must believe; neither is it enough evidence to be passionate about what I believe.

 

But am I convinced of the existence of God and the grace of God, and even the goodness of God?  As of now, YES.

[mymistake]

 

 

But am I convinced of the existence of God and the grace of God, and even the goodness of God?  As of now, YES.

 

 

 

I don't mind if you have religion.  But why did you create an account here and spend over 30 posts talking to us about your new religious views?  I can understand it if you just wanted to work out where you stand on this but why not do that on a Christian forum?  We are not exactly good for your faith.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

 

 

But am I convinced of the existence of God and the grace of God, and even the goodness of God?  As of now, YES.

 

 

 

I don't mind if you have religion.  But why did you create an account here and spend over 30 posts talking to us about your new religious views?  I can understand it if you just wanted to work out where you stand on this but why not do that on a Christian forum?  We are not exactly good for your faith.

 

I have a membership at  Christian forums.  Multiple of them.  Protestant and Catholic.  They don't even allow you to say "shit" or "asshole".

 

Plus, when I see how certain they are about what they believe and bash those of other beliefs it makes me nauseous.  To say shit is sooo bad it will get you banned, but to despise other people and tell them their faith is satanic, or homosexuals are possessed, or judge people, and gossip is okay.  But you damn people cursing is what's terrible.

 

Also, im surprised I posted this many posts.  It was totally not my intention but people keep asking me questions. Also, the posts from others are very provocative and in large quantities lol which of course entices me to often reply.

[Ravenstar]

 

Finding people who have 'changed' for the better is not that hard, and definitely not just a Christian thing…. go to any meeting of AA, NA or any other group/peer counselling thing.. weight watchers, whatever. Even EVERY religion on the planet has tons of people who've changed for the better because of… name it, it's been claimed. Scientology thrives on this actually.

 

It's amazing what people can do when they think they can, and with a little support. We are social animals, and do best when we work together.

 

The Old Testament is a myriad of syncretism (absorption of many religious concepts from the entire Mediterranean) starting with late paleolithic/early Egyptian and Canaanite theologies. THAT is why Yahweh seems to change his mind, also because he has evolved as society has.

 

So interesting that Christ was egalitarian (a Greek concept) during the HELLENISTIC period… that Japhtheth sacrificed his daughter during a time when that was a common practice, and that the Hebrews became conquerors (maybe) during a time of much turmoil and warfare in the middle east. You see nothing of compassion for others (outside the tribal unit) early on, but later there is (The good samaritan is one example) because the ROMAN world was multicultural… and the early Hebrews were insular. Do you get it yet?

 

The early Hebrews were also POLYTHEISTIC… and Asherah (Yahweh's consort) was prevalent until quite late.. funny, she was El's consort earlier (Canaanite father god) and also Baal's consort as well. Her figurines look almost identical to Astarte's or Innanna/Ishtar's  even... Ninhursag's. Same stance, same symbology…hmm….

 

You can NOT understand the Old Testament without understanding the culture of the area, and the beliefs that were prevalent at the time. Seeing it from our point of view is pretty much useless… because their mindset and world view was very different from ours.

YEs I have always and still do fear that you are right .  It may be that human beings added a lot of bullshit to it to jive with the culture of the time.  It might also be that God met the people who had the culture engrained into them so deep seatedly that God would not be able to keep them devoted to him without permitting the depravity of the culture and customs of the time.

 

When you say people added and made up stuff,   It honestly looks that way to me, but I don't know that I am right.  But honestly, it looks that way which I can't deny. 

 

Also, in all honesty, I'd like to think that is the case in so far as God was not the tyrant that people wanted him to be and thus portrayed him as.

 

 

No.. you missed the point entirely.

 

If god CREATED people, and was in contact with them (which is stated in the Bible)… how did he meet with people who already had a culture? Use your head. This makes no sense, at all. Why would the creator of the universe link (please understand what you are seeing here - this is a star factory - a place where dust and gas coalesce to form baby stars.. it's a very small portion of a dust cloud in the Eagle Nebula in our galaxy, the Milky Way, which has 100 billion stars in it - each one of those nodules is larger than our entire solar system…there are approximately 100 billion galaxies in the universe)  have a problem communicating his law with puny just barely out of the stone age humans? Why would a supreme being, an omniscient being need to LIE by misrepresenting itself to get through to people?

 

People didn't ADD things to jive with the culture of the time. You read in there what WAS the culture and beliefs of the time… and it changes with every new book.. because people changed, society changed… beliefs changed. They didn't 'make stuff up'… they wrote what they sincerely believed.. or had heard from their tribes, parent, culture… people are storytellers, and these stories change over time. (Noah's flood is a story from a much earlier civilization, Sumerian) (Moses too, was partially borrowed from Akkadia, Sargon of Akkad*) As they met up with other peoples they absorbed the mythology of those peoples (Zoroastrainism and dualism, for one) Think about why early in the OT god's name is EL ELYON … because the Hebrews came out of the hills of Canaan and that was the Canaanite father god.. only later is he merged with Yahweh. Read the Ugarit texts and you will see many similarities between Canaanite religion and Hebrew.

 

* Sargon of Akkad (also known as Sargon the Great, Shar-Gani-Sharri, and Sarru-Kan, meaning "True King" or "Legitimate King") reigned in Mesopotamia from 2334 to 2279 BCE. He is equally famous today as the father of the great poet-priestess Enheduanna. He was born an illegitimate son of a "changeling", which could refer to a temple priestess of the goddess Innanna (whose clergy were androgynous) and, according to the Sargon Legend (a cuneiform clay tablet purporting to be his biography) never knew his father. His mother could not reveal her pregnancy or keep the child, and so he was set adrift by her in a basket on the Euphrates River where he was later found by a man named Akki who was a gardener for Ur-Zababa, the King of the Sumerian city of Kish. (Found by royalty..in a basket, on the river.. hmm.. sounds familiar) From this very humble beginning, Sargon would rise to conquer all Mesopotamia and create the first multi-national empire in history.

 

HEBREW.. the language, is actually an offshoot of Phoenician. Do you not think that they brought those ideas/words with them? 

 

Actually read your Bible.. Yahweh is most definitely a tyrant, a bloodthirsty and warlike god who enjoys the smell of burnt flesh and the slaughter of just about everyone. His heroes are debauched and immoral. His direct commands are cruel, bigoted, bloody, racist, misogynistic, etc...

 

Use your head.

 

Case in point… which MAY be based on a very early British chieftain/warlord, or it may be complete fabrication - however, the values associated are timeless (i.e.: mythological).. King Arthur. The story we know today bears little resemblance to the original. 

 

http://www.caerleon.net/history/arthur/page3.htm

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

But am I convinced of the existence of God and the grace of God, and even the goodness of God?  As of now, YES.

 

 

 

I don't mind if you have religion.  But why did you create an account here and spend over 30 posts talking to us about your new religious views?  I can understand it if you just wanted to work out where you stand on this but why not do that on a Christian forum?  We are not exactly good for your faith.

 

I have a membership at a Christian forum.  They don't even allow you to say "shit" or "asshole".

 

Plus, when I see how certain they are about what they believe and bash those of other beliefs it makes me nauseous.  To say shit is sooo bad it will get you banned, but to despise other people and tell them their faith is satanic, or homosexuals are possessed, or judge people, and gossip is okay.  But you damn people cursing is what's terrible.

 

Also, im surprised I posted this many posts.  It was totally not my intention but people keep asking me questions. Also, the posts from others are very provocative and in large quantities lol which of course entices me to often reply.

 

 

 

You're okay.  Around here people frown on defending faith.  If you would keep your religion to yourself you would probably get along fine here.

[Ravenstar]

^^ That's the truth  

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

 

Finding people who have 'changed' for the better is not that hard, and definitely not just a Christian thing…. go to any meeting of AA, NA or any other group/peer counselling thing.. weight watchers, whatever. Even EVERY religion on the planet has tons of people who've changed for the better because of… name it, it's been claimed. Scientology thrives on this actually.

 

It's amazing what people can do when they think they can, and with a little support. We are social animals, and do best when we work together.

 

The Old Testament is a myriad of syncretism (absorption of many religious concepts from the entire Mediterranean) starting with late paleolithic/early Egyptian and Canaanite theologies. THAT is why Yahweh seems to change his mind, also because he has evolved as society has.

 

So interesting that Christ was egalitarian (a Greek concept) during the HELLENISTIC period… that Japhtheth sacrificed his daughter during a time when that was a common practice, and that the Hebrews became conquerors (maybe) during a time of much turmoil and warfare in the middle east. You see nothing of compassion for others (outside the tribal unit) early on, but later there is (The good samaritan is one example) because the ROMAN world was multicultural… and the early Hebrews were insular. Do you get it yet?

 

The early Hebrews were also POLYTHEISTIC… and Asherah (Yahweh's consort) was prevalent until quite late.. funny, she was El's consort earlier (Canaanite father god) and also Baal's consort as well. Her figurines look almost identical to Astarte's or Innanna/Ishtar's  even... Ninhursag's. Same stance, same symbology…hmm….

 

You can NOT understand the Old Testament without understanding the culture of the area, and the beliefs that were prevalent at the time. Seeing it from our point of view is pretty much useless… because their mindset and world view was very different from ours.

YEs I have always and still do fear that you are right .  It may be that human beings added a lot of bullshit to it to jive with the culture of the time.  It might also be that God met the people who had the culture engrained into them so deep seatedly that God would not be able to keep them devoted to him without permitting the depravity of the culture and customs of the time.

 

When you say people added and made up stuff,   It honestly looks that way to me, but I don't know that I am right.  But honestly, it looks that way which I can't deny. 

 

Also, in all honesty, I'd like to think that is the case in so far as God was not the tyrant that people wanted him to be and thus portrayed him as.

 

 

No.. you missed the point entirely.

 

If god CREATED people, and was in contact with them (which is stated in the Bible)… how did he meet with people who already had a culture? Use your head. This makes no sense, at all. Why would the creator of the universe link (please understand what you are seeing here - this is a star factory - a place where dust and gas coalesce to form baby stars.. it's a very small portion of a dust cloud in the Eagle Nebula in our galaxy, the Milky Way, which has 100 billion stars in it - each one of those nodules is larger than our entire solar system…there are approximately 100 billion galaxies in the universe)  have a problem communicating his law with puny just barely out of the stone age humans? Why would a supreme being, an omniscient being need to LIE by misrepresenting itself to get through to people?

 

People didn't ADD things to jive with the culture of the time. You read in there what WAS the culture and beliefs of the time… and it changes with every new book.. because people changed, society changed… beliefs changed. They didn't 'make stuff up'… they wrote what they sincerely believed.. or had heard from their tribes, parent, culture… people are storytellers, and these stories change over time. (Noah's flood is a story from a much earlier civilization, Sumerian) (Moses too, was partially borrowed from Akkadia, Sargon of Akkad*) As they met up with other peoples they absorbed the mythology of those peoples (Zoroastrainism and dualism, for one) Think about why early in the OT god's name is EL ELYON … because the Hebrews came out of the hills of Canaan and that was the Canaanite father god.. only later is he merged with Yahweh. Read the Ugarit texts and you will see many similarities between Canaanite religion and Hebrew.

 

* Sargon of Akkad (also known as Sargon the Great, Shar-Gani-Sharri, and Sarru-Kan, meaning "True King" or "Legitimate King") reigned in Mesopotamia from 2334 to 2279 BCE. He is equally famous today as the father of the great poet-priestess Enheduanna. He was born an illegitimate son of a "changeling", which could refer to a temple priestess of the goddess Innanna (whose clergy were androgynous) and, according to the Sargon Legend (a cuneiform clay tablet purporting to be his biography) never knew his father. His mother could not reveal her pregnancy or keep the child, and so he was set adrift by her in a basket on the Euphrates River where he was later found by a man named Akki who was a gardener for Ur-Zababa, the King of the Sumerian city of Kish. (Found by royalty..in a basket, on the river.. hmm.. sounds familiar) From this very humble beginning, Sargon would rise to conquer all Mesopotamia and create the first multi-national empire in history.

 

HEBREW.. the language, is actually an offshoot of Phoenician. Do you not think that they brought those ideas/words with them? 

 

Actually read your Bible.. Yahweh is most definitely a tyrant, a bloodthirsty and warlike god who enjoys the smell of burnt flesh and the slaughter of just about everyone. His heroes are debauched and immoral. His direct commands are cruel, bigoted, bloody, racist, misogynistic, etc...

 

Use your head.

 

Case in point… which MAY be based on a very early British chieftain/warlord, or it may be complete fabrication - however, the values associated are timeless (i.e.: mythological).. King Arthur. The story we know today bears little resemblance to the original. 

 

http://www.caerleon.net/history/arthur/page3.htm

 

All very convincing and well educated.  I read it all but not the link.

 

I shall present it to one or more of the people that I confide in for Spiritual direction.  Hey maybe this person will get a membership and answer it.

 

What I see is a very educated, clever, and convincing arguement against Christianity.  Yes there are many.  I have heard equally educated, clever, and convincing arguements that suggest otherwise.

 

Do I know who is right and who is wrong? I think both arguements are right sometimes and wrong at others.  But good job!

[Overcame Faith]

Ted, as others have said, you are making up a God of your liking. That's okay to do that if you want to, but you should remember something of great importance. As a Christian, you are stuck with the God of the Bible. It's the same God who repeatedly ordered genocide, ordered the deaths of unruly teens, stonings of those who are gay, invented hell, would not simply forgive people, held other's responsible for the "sins" of Adam and Eve even though they had nothing to do with what that couple supposedly did, decided that he could only forgive otherwise innocent individuals if he conceived a son, had him crucified as an atonement for what he considered to be otherwise unforgivable sins, and on and on it goes even to the extreme of inventing eternal punishment in hell.

 

You can reinvent this God to your heart's desire if you wish, but your reinvention of him does not replace that cruel son of a bitch called the God of the Bible. Your reinvention of him is just that - your rejection of the God of the Bible in favor of a kinder and gentler version! I can't say that I blame you for reinventing him because the God of the Bible is an abomination. Just accept that that is what you are doing!

[Guest tedbunnny]

Well...I don't know the whole story either.  If God were going to grant all these suffering souls an eternity of bliss, their suffering for up to 100 years  was nothing more than a brief slap on the wrist compared to the joy they would have for more than hundreds of thousands of years.

 

In the Scripture God's judgement often came after much warning, though I just don't get a lot of it, but don't know the whole story.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of inhospitality.  THe people were raping eachother and wanted to sodomize the "men of God and angels" that visited.

 

The merciful thing for God to do and the best thing for the world at that time may have been to whipe out certain cities where the people had become so perverse and inhospitable and drenched in and addicted to depravity that it was best to put them out of their misery and better for the neighboring cities as well.

 

Yes I am left with the God of the Bible who founded a new covenant and commandment that is based on serving the poor and loving others without conditions and not returning violence for violence.

[Ravenstar]

Burning someone in hell forever, for a mere 75 years on earth is immoral and depraved…and the vast majority of people are not evil, just human, and since 'god' is omniscient he would be aware of it… always.

 

That's sadism and evil of a infinite scope. Go to the link.. it's just a pic.. but it is breathtaking and puts a realistic scale on humanity. No being that could, or would, create that would be as petty as Yahweh.

[Lucy]

You seem to want to believe in a god who is better than Bible god. But since you're stuck on Christianity you are not stuck with defending Bible god's bad behavior while maintaining that god is good. This will cause you to try to justify his bad behavior.

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah story has many flaws. I don't believe a whole city can be so depraved that they should be wiped out entirely. Even the toddlers and babies? We just heard a story about some men, what about the women? What about the ones he saved. Lot offered his daughters to the rape mob, yet god thought Lot was worthy of salvation. Lot's wife was turned into salt for just looking at the destruction behind them so she was no longer worthy of being saved just because she disobeyed the order not to look at the destruction behind her. Lot's daughters were also worthy of being saved yet they later drug raped their own father to get pregnant. These were the people god thought were worth saving? It seems he didn't choose very well.

 

I tried to rationalize the Bible god like you are doing now. The cognitive dissonance eventually became too much for me.

[mymistake]

Well...I don't know the whole story either.  If God were going to grant all these suffering souls an eternity of bliss, their suffering for up to 100 years  was nothing more than a brief slap on the wrist compared to the joy they would have for more than hundreds of thousands of years.

 

In the Scripture God's judgement often came after much warning, though I just don't get a lot of it, but don't know the whole story.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of inhospitality.  THe people were raping eachother and wanted to sodomize the "men of God and angels" that visited.

 

The merciful thing for God to do and the best thing for the world at that time may have been to whipe out certain cities where the people had become so perverse and inhospitable and drenched in and addicted to depravity that it was best to put them out of their misery and better for the neighboring cities as well.

 

Yes I am left with the God of the Bible who founded a new covenant and commandment that is based on serving the poor and loving others without conditions and not returning violence for violence.

 

 

Uh don't try to justify genocide.  Just don't go there.  By the way rape wasn't the problem in the S&G story.  Lot was supposedly a righteous man and he offered to let the mob rape his daughters.  The angles did not become upset at this idea because to the men who wrote the story a girl was the property of her father to do with her whatever he pleased.

[Guest tedbunnny]

Burning someone in hell forever, for a mere 75 years on earth is immoral and depraved…and the vast majority of people are not evil, just human, and since 'god' is omniscient he would be aware of it… always.

 

That's sadism and evil of a infinite scope. Go to the link.. it's just a pic.. but it is breathtaking and puts a realistic scale on humanity. No being that could, or would, create that would be as petty as Yahweh.

Yes...burning people in hell forever for a mere 75 years on earth to me is the most cruel and aweful thing imaginable and worse and more depressing than the deeds of any murderer or sadist that walked the planet imho.  If there is a Hell however, we don't know that any human is there.  True that Christ warned about a place of eternal fire with wailing and gnashing of teeth.  The fire may be eternal.  The suffering may not be eternal.

 

That may also be similar to a parent making a gross exaggeration to scare a child away from bad behavior.  For instance, I was told that if I had unprotected sex these days 80% of the people out there have a contagious STD.

 

Well, clearly that isn't true but still the point that there is an epidemic and a risk is there.  I was also told that if I went to prison or jail I'd get raped.   I've been to both.  Never happened.  Nor did I see it happen but according to the testimony of others, it did happen but it must have been extremely rare for me to never see any evidence of it. 

 

I was also on occassion told by authority figures that if I did such and such an action one more time I was going to prison.  I did that such and such an action multiple times and didn't go. I've known of parents and judges and probation officers that will threaten their kids with severe consequences to motivate them to good behavior and never follow through with it when it happens.

 

I was told being the only white boy in a black neighborhood would have all sorts of dangers and consequences.  I've been there done that.  Not what the concerned people told me it  would be.

 

Also, to warn people of the risk of sin could result in going to the place reserved for the fallen angels doesn't mean that unbelievers or sinners who die have a guarentee of going there.  Even the Catholic Church, the most ancient and argueable the strictest sect of Christianity recognizes that we can never be sure if anyone including the "Hitlers" and mass murderers are in Hell.

 

The possibility for God to grant a soul grace even after death to see the truth and repent is there according to the magisterium.  And that grace is available to all souls.

[mymistake]

 

 

What I see is a very educated, clever, and convincing arguement against Christianity.  Yes there are many.  I have heard equally educated, clever, and convincing arguements that suggest otherwise.

 

Do I know who is right and who is wrong? I think both arguements are right sometimes and wrong at others.  But good job!

 

 

I use to think that I had heard many good arguments for why Christianity was viable.  But then I learned logic, real logic, by attending college.  None of the pro-Christian arguments hold up.  Now that doesn't mean you have to give up your religion.  Hey if it makes you happy and you are not hurting anybody then enjoy it.  It's just that if you bring arguments here they will be examined and tested; they will will go down in flames.

[Guest tedbunnny]

You seem to want to believe in a god who is better than Bible god. But since you're stuck on Christianity you are not stuck with defending Bible god's bad behavior while maintaining that god is good. This will cause you to try to justify his bad behavior.

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah story has many flaws. I don't believe a whole city can be so depraved that they should be wiped out entirely. Even the toddlers and babies? We just heard a story about some men, what about the women? What about the ones he saved. Lot offered his daughters to the rape mob, yet god thought Lot was worthy of salvation. Lot's wife was turned into salt for just looking at the destruction behind them so she was no longer worthy of being saved just because she disobeyed the order not to look at the destruction behind her. Lot's daughters were also worthy of being saved yet they later drug raped their own father to get pregnant. These were the people god thought were worth saving? It seems he didn't choose very well.

 

I tried to rationalize the Bible god like you are doing now. The cognitive dissonance eventually became too much for me.

Yes...I made it very clear that stuff bothers me.

 

But were there 10 just men/women in those cities they would be spared for their sake.

 

Also, If I could get turned into a pillar of salt this day and go to a place free of suffering and responsibility and uncertainty and disease, I'd take it without hesitation.

 

If those girls that got raped and murdered are in a place free of suffering, I bet they no longer care what happened to them.  I wouldn't.  Also, just because lot is just, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot or that God approved of his stupidity in making such a decision.

 

Also...if 20 years ago I got raped, my eyes plucked out, my ear drums punctured, every bone fractured, and tortured for months before getting skinneed alive and dismembered...that would suck...but  had I then gone to a place that in the last 20 years I had no suffering, perfect understanding, and no worries, I wouldn't be grieving over what happened to me 20 years ago. 

[mymistake]

 

You seem to want to believe in a god who is better than Bible god. But since you're stuck on Christianity you are not stuck with defending Bible god's bad behavior while maintaining that god is good. This will cause you to try to justify his bad behavior.

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah story has many flaws. I don't believe a whole city can be so depraved that they should be wiped out entirely. Even the toddlers and babies? We just heard a story about some men, what about the women? What about the ones he saved. Lot offered his daughters to the rape mob, yet god thought Lot was worthy of salvation. Lot's wife was turned into salt for just looking at the destruction behind them so she was no longer worthy of being saved just because she disobeyed the order not to look at the destruction behind her. Lot's daughters were also worthy of being saved yet they later drug raped their own father to get pregnant. These were the people god thought were worth saving? It seems he didn't choose very well.

 

I tried to rationalize the Bible god like you are doing now. The cognitive dissonance eventually became too much for me.

Yes...I made it very clear that stuff bothers me.

 

But were there 10 just men/women in those cities they would be spared for their sake.

 

Also, If I could get turned into a pillar of salt this day and go to a place free of suffering and responsibility and uncertainty and disease, I'd take it without hesitation.

 

If those girls that got raped and murdered are in a place free of suffering, I bet they no longer care what happened to them.  I wouldn't.  Also, just because lot is just, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot or that God approved of his stupidity in making such a decision.

 

Also...if 20 years ago I got raped, my eyes plucked out, my ear drums punctured, every bone fractured, and tortured for months before getting skinneed alive and dismembered...that would suck...but  had I then gone to a place that in the last 20 years I had no suffering, perfect understanding, and no worries, I wouldn't be grieving over what happened to me 20 years ago. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately heaven isn't real.  This would have been a great opportunity for God to tell humans that they shouldn't have sex with a woman against her consent.  But the Bible doesn't take that opportunity.  In fact the Bible never makes consent an issue.  The men in the Bible own the women.  A father decides to whom he will sell his daughter.  The buyer is the husband and the woman must obey and submit.  This is one example of how the Bible is evil.

 

Really the men who wrote the Bible were too primitive to understand that it is unethical to have sex with a woman without her consent.  Humans figured it out later much like how we figured out that slavery is wrong.

[RipVanWinkle]

I sometimes get lazy and that is the way I feel tonight. So I read your OP but only scanned the responses Therefore what I say may repeat what others have said.

 

You are saying that god had to become the very thing he condemned about humans in order to reach us: SIN   Instead of setting an example, god became the enemy, the very thing he had condemned  Adam and Eve to death for doing: SIN  God created Adam and Eve knowing even before he created them that SIN would enter the world and contaminate it. for his creations. Why? Why not do it right to begin with?

 

One thing everyone (including you) who really doesn't like the evil god of the bible but wants to believe in him anyway does is to ignore the parts of the bible that describes god being cruel, or reinterpret the bible's plain meaning and replace bad scriptures with his or her own idea of what would make the bible describe a good god. You can't honestly say you believe in the god of the bible if you rewrite or reinterpret  or otherwise modify him to your liking. For one thing if you do that the bible as written before your changes could not have been inspired by an all knowing god, since it was not a perfect bible. For another thing, with the changes we have a new god created by you. Thanks, but no thanks. Rip

[Ravenstar]

 

You seem to want to believe in a god who is better than Bible god. But since you're stuck on Christianity you are not stuck with defending Bible god's bad behavior while maintaining that god is good. This will cause you to try to justify his bad behavior.

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah story has many flaws. I don't believe a whole city can be so depraved that they should be wiped out entirely. Even the toddlers and babies? We just heard a story about some men, what about the women? What about the ones he saved. Lot offered his daughters to the rape mob, yet god thought Lot was worthy of salvation. Lot's wife was turned into salt for just looking at the destruction behind them so she was no longer worthy of being saved just because she disobeyed the order not to look at the destruction behind her. Lot's daughters were also worthy of being saved yet they later drug raped their own father to get pregnant. These were the people god thought were worth saving? It seems he didn't choose very well.

 

I tried to rationalize the Bible god like you are doing now. The cognitive dissonance eventually became too much for me.

Yes...I made it very clear that stuff bothers me.

 

But were there 10 just men/women in those cities they would be spared for their sake.

 

Also, If I could get turned into a pillar of salt this day and go to a place free of suffering and responsibility and uncertainty and disease, I'd take it without hesitation.

 

If those girls that got raped and murdered are in a place free of suffering, I bet they no longer care what happened to them.  I wouldn't.  Also, just because lot is just, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot or that God approved of his stupidity in making such a decision.

 

Also...if 20 years ago I got raped, my eyes plucked out, my ear drums punctured, every bone fractured, and tortured for months before getting skinneed alive and dismembered...that would suck...but  had I then gone to a place that in the last 20 years I had no suffering, perfect understanding, and no worries, I wouldn't be grieving over what happened to me 20 years ago. 

 

 

oh… that is just… I don't know what to say. 

 

sorry, speechless.

 

 

You don't have children, do you?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

You seem to want to believe in a god who is better than Bible god. But since you're stuck on Christianity you are not stuck with defending Bible god's bad behavior while maintaining that god is good. This will cause you to try to justify his bad behavior.

 

The Sodom and Gomorrah story has many flaws. I don't believe a whole city can be so depraved that they should be wiped out entirely. Even the toddlers and babies? We just heard a story about some men, what about the women? What about the ones he saved. Lot offered his daughters to the rape mob, yet god thought Lot was worthy of salvation. Lot's wife was turned into salt for just looking at the destruction behind them so she was no longer worthy of being saved just because she disobeyed the order not to look at the destruction behind her. Lot's daughters were also worthy of being saved yet they later drug raped their own father to get pregnant. These were the people god thought were worth saving? It seems he didn't choose very well.

 

I tried to rationalize the Bible god like you are doing now. The cognitive dissonance eventually became too much for me.

Yes...I made it very clear that stuff bothers me.

 

But were there 10 just men/women in those cities they would be spared for their sake.

 

Also, If I could get turned into a pillar of salt this day and go to a place free of suffering and responsibility and uncertainty and disease, I'd take it without hesitation.

 

If those girls that got raped and murdered are in a place free of suffering, I bet they no longer care what happened to them.  I wouldn't.  Also, just because lot is just, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot or that God approved of his stupidity in making such a decision.

 

Also...if 20 years ago I got raped, my eyes plucked out, my ear drums punctured, every bone fractured, and tortured for months before getting skinneed alive and dismembered...that would suck...but  had I then gone to a place that in the last 20 years I had no suffering, perfect understanding, and no worries, I wouldn't be grieving over what happened to me 20 years ago. 

 

 

It's interesting, the victims of the Holocaust didn't consider their suffering unimportant and something to be easily forgotten.  Maybe ask some people who have been tortured before you go around minimising it and glossing over it.  You can produce zero evidence of an afterlife, so don't claim suffering is all made better after we die.  I used to believe that shit, and I nearly took my own life so I could get there.  Just as well I woke up and realised "god" is a human made myth, and embraced reality, reason, logic and evidence.

[Ravenstar]

The world is a better place because you stayed with us!    Free.

 

 

Out of up votes