Reconciling The Violent God With A Loving God

[florduh]

This kind of dishonest "lukewarm" religion not only makes the Jesus character want to puke, but me as well. It's as if one would claim to be a Skinhead while thinking the Jews, Mexicans and blacks are really okay - Skinhead leadership is just pandering to a certain group and doesn't really mean it. Pitiful, really.

 

I suggest believing that which has evidence. Inventing your own imitation religion is pretty lame. Religion isn't required in order to be a good person.

[bornagainathiest]

Revelation 3 : 15 & 16...?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

crazy man, people have the ability to choose the right and wrong and most people have a fairly good grasp of what is good and what is evil, but human beings are naturally selfish and have desires that are very selfish sometimes a desire for pleasure, reputation, or power that in order to fulfill requires negative consequences to other people.

 

it isn't that human beings are just evil and don't have any choice in the matter but human beings are naturally inclined to sin and can choose whether or not to follow those inclinations.

 

I do actually agree that we have the ability to choose right and wrong, but I do not depend on the Bible whatsoever to define reality. You, on the other hand, have to reconcile this idea with the portions of scripture that claim that humans are "just evil" and cannot be anything but evil, without the aid of Jesus.

 

The Bible itself makes humans out to be these horrible, evil creatures who deserve to burn in a lake of fire for their humanity, but also makes it appear that we somehow choose to be this way. The problem is that, even if we are merely inclined to sin, the fact that this is a default condition means that our sinfulness is, in some way, programmed into us.

[Lucy]

I think people want god to exist so that you feel like the world is less random and more purpose driven. You are choosing Bible god because your friends are Christian and you were probably raised a Christian and surrounded by Christians.There are other religions with less offensive god figures. If you were born in another region you would have chosen the local god. It is the desire for goodness and a sense of purpose that is creating the desire for god to exist.

 

Your OP is saying that god had to make himself be the god the people would accept to gain their respect. It is also more probable that the priests of the time created a god that the people would accept so that they could maintain their priestly authority over the people.

 

If god could create the universe, why does he need to make himself acceptable to us? God shouldn't have to adjust his own beliefs to gain respect from some primitive people. God isn't a politician. He says let it be, and it is. I doubt he would adjust his moral code for humanity to suit what the people of the time find acceptable.

 

A better question would be, why do we need to make excuses for god? If god could create the universe, he should be capable of making himself understood. Being able to make yourself be understood isn't a super advanced skill. Surely the creator of the universe could have made a more clear guideline to what he wants from us, and what he wants us to know about him, that didn't cause so much room for interpretation.

[Orbit]

If you have to make that many excuses and rationalizations for God's behavior doesn't it make you wonder about consistency? If God's nature and attitude towards humans is constantly changing, how can you know you're espousing the right ideas any more? Where is God's head at today?

 

While it's great you're not a fundie, you're still taking a mythology literally that wasn't meant to be taken literally. The Biblical God does not exist in the real world. We have absolutely no evidence for his existence. Why believe a fairy tale?

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

crazy man, people have the ability to choose the right and wrong and most people have a fairly good grasp of what is good and what is evil, but human beings are naturally selfish and have desires that are very selfish sometimes a desire for pleasure, reputation, or power that in order to fulfill requires negative consequences to other people.

it isn't that human beings are just evil and don't have any choice in the matter but human beings are naturally inclined to sin and can choose whether or not to follow those inclinations.

 

 

I do actually agree that we have the ability to choose right and wrong, but I do not depend on the Bible whatsoever to define reality. You, on the other hand, have to reconcile this idea with the portions of scripture that claim that humans are "just evil" and cannot be anything but evil, without the aid of Jesus.

 

The Bible itself makes humans out to be these horrible, evil creatures who deserve to burn in a lake of fire for their humanity, but also makes it appear that we somehow choose to be this way. The problem is that, even if we are merely inclined to sin, the fact that this is a default condition means that our sinfulness is, in some way, programmed into us.

I can't answer your question because I do not know what is in the heart of the average human being.

 

(For my names sake ) a friend of Ted Bundy's asked him why he killed all those innocent people. he said, "because I liked it". He can't change that. he can choose not to kill people as the majority of people that would enjoy killing someone choose not to do, but the fact that he desired to kill people is not something he can just turn off any more than a homosexual can choose to be a heterosexual.

 

I think probably anybody who goes out and shoots birds or other animals simply for the pleasure of killing them and no other reason, would probably also enjoy killing a human being. that is just who they naturally are. they are perfectly capable of choosing not to.

 

I look at the history of this world and it appears to me that human beings are naturally inclined to hurt each other even if it's just something like gossip and headgames, that is one way to destroy a person as well.

[Guest tedbunnny]

My question wasn't about your feelings, Ted.

 

It asked if you thought that passage of scripture applied to you.

 

Could you please answer?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I never liked that scripture verse. I presented it to a priest once in the confession booth, and he gave me an explanation that put me totally at ease, but that is years ago and I don't know what he said.

 

that verse could be referring to those who know very clearly what the truth is and consciously are choosing to reject it. I have never known an atheist who was consciously rejecting what they knew to be true.

[25YearsLater]

So I recently went from being agnostic to being a lukewarm Christian again 

 

By the way, if the Bible God is real, you're in big trouble.  Revelation 3:16, anyone?

 

Edit - 'pols to BAA

[Guest tedbunnny]

This kind of dishonest "lukewarm" religion not only makes the Jesus character want to puke, but me as well. It's as if one would claim to be a Skinhead while thinking the Jews, Mexicans and blacks are really okay - Skinhead leadership is just pandering to a certain group and doesn't really mean it. Pitiful, really.

 

I suggest believing that which has evidence. Inventing your own imitation religion is pretty lame. Religion isn't required in order to be a good person.

I think if you're giving food to the hungry , caring for the sick, are giving to the needy, or giving shelter to the homeless, you will not make the Jesus character puke, because in Matthew 25 the saved were separated from the unsaved based upon the good that they did for the poor and the suffering.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

So I recently went from being agnostic to being a lukewarm Christian again

 

 

By the way, if the Bible God is real, you're in big trouble.  Revelation 3:16, anyone?

 

So I recently went from being agnostic to being a lukewarm Christian again

 

 

By the way, if the Bible God is real, you're in big trouble.  Revelation 3:16, anyone?

I guess I will have to ask for the mercy of God and it is his choice whether to grant it or not.

[Guest tedbunnny]

I think people want god to exist so that you feel like the world is less random and more purpose driven. You are choosing Bible god because your friends are Christian and you were probably raised a Christian and surrounded by Christians.There are other religions with less offensive god figures. If you were born in another region you would have chosen the local god. It is the desire for goodness and a sense of purpose that is creating the desire for god to exist.

 

Your OP is saying that god had to make himself be the god the people would accept to gain their respect. It is also more probable that the priests of the time created a god that the people would accept so that they could maintain their priestly authority over the people.

 

If god could create the universe, why does he need to make himself acceptable to us? God shouldn't have to adjust his own beliefs to gain respect from some primitive people. God isn't a politician. He says let it be, and it is. I doubt he would adjust his moral code for humanity to suit what the people of the time find acceptable.

 

A better question would be, why do we need to make excuses for god? If god could create the universe, he should be capable of making himself understood. Being able to make yourself be understood isn't a super advanced skill. Surely the creator of the universe could have made a more clear guideline to what he wants from us, and what he wants us to know about him, that didn't cause so much room for interpretation.

I just became an a theist about a week ago, so am definitely not an apologist. but God claims to be a Fisher of men, and can use any means as bait to get people hooked.

[Ravenstar]

You do realize you contradict yourself a lot, don't you?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?  Habakkuk 1:13

 

Thank you for pointing out yet another glaring contradiction in the scriptures.  There is no possible way that god could have become sin in our stead when the bible plainly states that god cannot even abide the sight of sin.  His holiness prevents the explanation you offer from being valid.  Good try, though.

 

Welcome to the forums.

my response to that would be that God could not associated with sin until he became a man and took the sin upon himself and then suffered the punishment for that sin. Before he became a man that was not the case.

 

When he was a man he was a prostitute magnet and a friend of adulterers, tax collectors, drunkards, heathens, and pagans and they were drawn to him. He was a disgrace to the religious folks of the time and they were the ones that wanted him dead.

 

Again, god's holiness would preclude him from becoming human, if, as you say, humans are sin.  There would be no possible way for god's holiness to be embodied within the very sin it cannot abide.  That would be the theological equivalent of trying to put oil into water.

[Guest tedbunnny]

You do realize you contradict yourself a lot, don't you?

Yeah...the theory of evolution contradicts itself as well.

 

So, please provide a list of statements where I contradicted myself.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?  Habakkuk 1:13

 

Thank you for pointing out yet another glaring contradiction in the scriptures.  There is no possible way that god could have become sin in our stead when the bible plainly states that god cannot even abide the sight of sin.  His holiness prevents the explanation you offer from being valid.  Good try, though.

 

Welcome to the forums.

my response to that would be that God could not associated with sin until he became a man and took the sin upon himself and then suffered the punishment for that sin. Before he became a man that was not the case.

 

When he was a man he was a prostitute magnet and a friend of adulterers, tax collectors, drunkards, heathens, and pagans and they were drawn to him. He was a disgrace to the religious folks of the time and they were the ones that wanted him dead.

 

Again, god's holiness would preclude him from becoming human, if, as you say, humans are sin.  There would be no possible way for god's holiness to be embodied within the very sin it cannot abide.  That would be the theological equivalent of trying to put oil into water.

 

What I meant by we are sin is it is a part of who we are, it is our fallen nature, and our natural inclination is to sin.  It is a desire present in us all which theologians call concupiscence or some call "the flesh".

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Hi Ted!

 

Your posts and your profile make interesting reading. 

 

As does your description of the barely-Biblical god you believe in. 

 

This god became sinful (despicable, warlike and barbaric) so that the OT Israelites would respect him..? 

 

Because their sinful natures would be more attracted to a sinful god - rather than to a good and just one..?

 

And this god became sin to them - just like his NT counterpart..?

.

.

.

I see.

in the Old Testament God often changed his mind and compromised. he didn't originally want divorce but he compromised. polygamy also would not have been his first choice but he permitted s and my personal opinion was that it was to gain people's favor.

 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.  Hebrews 13:8

 

So, either jesus is not the same god as the old testament god (in which case god did not become human [sin], negating your prior argument); or this is yet another contradiction in the scriptures.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

 

Hi Ted!

 

Your posts and your profile make interesting reading. 

 

As does your description of the barely-Biblical god you believe in. 

 

This god became sinful (despicable, warlike and barbaric) so that the OT Israelites would respect him..? 

 

Because their sinful natures would be more attracted to a sinful god - rather than to a good and just one..?

 

And this god became sin to them - just like his NT counterpart..?

.

.

.

I see.

in the Old Testament God often changed his mind and compromised. he didn't originally want divorce but he compromised. polygamy also would not have been his first choice but he permitted s and my personal opinion was that it was to gain people's favor.

 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.  Hebrews 13:8

 

So, either jesus is not the same god as the old testament god (in which case god did not become human [sin], negating your prior argument); or this is yet another contradiction in the scriptures.

 

Well, obviously he isn't the same yesterday and forever because he never became human until roughly 2,000 years ago.  The Incarnation was a pretty big change if you ask me.  Also, he wasn't a carpenter yesterday today and forever, one of many other changes.

 

He also didn't piss , shit, sweat, or drink booze with prostitutes for all those thousands of years in the OT.  Another change.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

crazy man, people have the ability to choose the right and wrong and most people have a fairly good grasp of what is good and what is evil, but human beings are naturally selfish and have desires that are very selfish sometimes a desire for pleasure, reputation, or power that in order to fulfill requires negative consequences to other people.

Humans evolved this way because it is necessary for our overall survival as a species.  The reason that the average Joe knows right from wrong is because there is an instinctive morality that evolved as we developed as a social species.  We know that helping each other, looking out for each other, treating others with courtesy as opposed to hostility--these are all preferable because they enhance our own chances of survival.

 

Likewise, people can also be complete dicks at times.  This is also a product of evolution.  If one of your ancestors 27,435 years ago hadn't selfishly hoarded food, you might not be here today.  Struggles for power and position are seen all throughout the animal kingdom.  This is because, generally speaking, a social species has a better chance of survival under the leadership of one member.

 

This is why humans feel the need to serve under a good leader; or, in your case, an imaginary one.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Yeah...the theory of evolution contradicts itself as well.

 

 

Support this claim with evidence of the Theory of Evolution contradicting itself.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?  Habakkuk 1:13

 

Thank you for pointing out yet another glaring contradiction in the scriptures.  There is no possible way that god could have become sin in our stead when the bible plainly states that god cannot even abide the sight of sin.  His holiness prevents the explanation you offer from being valid.  Good try, though.

 

Welcome to the forums.

my response to that would be that God could not associated with sin until he became a man and took the sin upon himself and then suffered the punishment for that sin. Before he became a man that was not the case.

 

When he was a man he was a prostitute magnet and a friend of adulterers, tax collectors, drunkards, heathens, and pagans and they were drawn to him. He was a disgrace to the religious folks of the time and they were the ones that wanted him dead.

 

Again, god's holiness would preclude him from becoming human, if, as you say, humans are sin.  There would be no possible way for god's holiness to be embodied within the very sin it cannot abide.  That would be the theological equivalent of trying to put oil into water.

 

What I meant by we are sin is it is a part of who we are, it is our fallen nature, and our natural inclination is to sin.  It is a desire present in us all which theologians call concupiscence or some call "the flesh".

 

Exactly.  And god's holiness could not abide within "the flesh"

 

Go back and read Isaiah 6.  Even the holy angels who have never known sin had to cover their faces before god's holiness.  Why?  Because his holiness was just so damn HOLY!  There is no way that much holiness could be contained within "our fallen nature, and our natural inclination... to sin."

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

crazy man, people have the ability to choose the right and wrong and most people have a fairly good grasp of what is good and what is evil, but human beings are naturally selfish and have desires that are very selfish sometimes a desire for pleasure, reputation, or power that in order to fulfill requires negative consequences to other people.

Humans evolved this way because it is necessary for our overall survival as a species.  The reason that the average Joe knows right from wrong is because there is an instinctive morality that evolved as we developed as a social species.  We know that helping each other, looking out for each other, treating others with courtesy as opposed to hostility--these are all preferable because they enhance our own chances of survival.

 

Likewise, people can also be complete dicks at times.  This is also a product of evolution.  If one of your ancestors 27,435 years ago hadn't selfishly hoarded food, you might not be here today.  Struggles for power and position are seen all throughout the animal kingdom.  This is because, generally speaking, a social species has a better chance of survival under the leadership of one member.

 

This is why humans feel the need to serve under a good leader; or, in your case, an imaginary one.

 

IF you read my OP you will find no where that I declared my statements to be true.  In fact, I simply mentioned where I'm at right now theistically and just very recently developed belief in God and I simply mentioned my favorite explanation of the God of the Old Testament.  It was explained much better than that to me but I summed it up in a few of my own words.

 

I admit that I am lukewarm and don't claim to know the truth so don't have much passion for preaching the scriptures because I myself agree with anyone who says that they contradict themselves.  I personally don't know how any Christian who has read the Bible could claim that it doesn't Contradict itself.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Hi Ted!

 

Your posts and your profile make interesting reading. 

 

As does your description of the barely-Biblical god you believe in. 

 

This god became sinful (despicable, warlike and barbaric) so that the OT Israelites would respect him..? 

 

Because their sinful natures would be more attracted to a sinful god - rather than to a good and just one..?

 

And this god became sin to them - just like his NT counterpart..?

.

.

.

I see.

in the Old Testament God often changed his mind and compromised. he didn't originally want divorce but he compromised. polygamy also would not have been his first choice but he permitted s and my personal opinion was that it was to gain people's favor.

 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.  Hebrews 13:8

 

So, either jesus is not the same god as the old testament god (in which case god did not become human [sin], negating your prior argument); or this is yet another contradiction in the scriptures.

 

Well, obviously he isn't the same yesterday and forever because he never became human until roughly 2,000 years ago.  The Incarnation was a pretty big change if you ask me.  Also, he wasn't a carpenter yesterday today and forever, one of many other changes.

 

He also didn't piss , shit, sweat, or drink booze with prostitutes for all those thousands of years in the OT.  Another change.

 

Then Hebrews 13:8 is a lie.

[Lucy]

 

I just became an a theist about a week ago, so am definitely not an apologist. but God claims to be a Fisher of men, and can use any means as bait to get people hooked.

 

 

 

If god changes his message to suit the audience, then he is inconsistent and also a liar. If he adjust his claims to fit what he thinks will gain your approval, then he is not claiming to you what he truly thinks, but what he thinks will get you to agree with him. That is lying.

 

If that is the case, then we have no way to know what god really wants us to do or what his message for us is because he just changes it to suit his audience at the time.

 

So by that logic, if god revealed himself to us again to with a new revelation, it would be updated to appeal to our modern cultural beliefs. We still would not know what god truly thinks because he is just telling us what he thinks we want to hear so that he can gain our respect. So we will never know what god really wants from us because he is fine with lying to us to appeal to our current views if it makes himself more seem acceptable.

[Guest tedbunnny]

 

 

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, one explanation I like a lot is that God becomes us in our wretchedness to win us over.  2 cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  God became sin." In other words...sin is not an action...sin is a noun.  We are sin.  It is just naturally what we do and who we are.  So we are attracted to despicable behavior.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?  Habakkuk 1:13

 

Thank you for pointing out yet another glaring contradiction in the scriptures.  There is no possible way that god could have become sin in our stead when the bible plainly states that god cannot even abide the sight of sin.  His holiness prevents the explanation you offer from being valid.  Good try, though.

 

Welcome to the forums.

my response to that would be that God could not associated with sin until he became a man and took the sin upon himself and then suffered the punishment for that sin. Before he became a man that was not the case.

 

When he was a man he was a prostitute magnet and a friend of adulterers, tax collectors, drunkards, heathens, and pagans and they were drawn to him. He was a disgrace to the religious folks of the time and they were the ones that wanted him dead.

 

Again, god's holiness would preclude him from becoming human, if, as you say, humans are sin.  There would be no possible way for god's holiness to be embodied within the very sin it cannot abide.  That would be the theological equivalent of trying to put oil into water.

 

What I meant by we are sin is it is a part of who we are, it is our fallen nature, and our natural inclination is to sin.  It is a desire present in us all which theologians call concupiscence or some call "the flesh".

 

Exactly.  And god's holiness could not abide within "the flesh"

 

Go back and read Isaiah 6.  Even the holy angels who have never known sin had to cover their faces before god's holiness.  Why?  Because his holiness was just so damn HOLY!  There is no way that much holiness could be contained within "our fallen nature, and our natural inclination... to sin."

 

Scripture says nothing is impossible for God so if he wants to become flesh he can and his holiness can abide wherever he wants it to.  He also is perfectly capable of changing his mind which he often does in the OT as a result of someone's intercession. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

crazy man, people have the ability to choose the right and wrong and most people have a fairly good grasp of what is good and what is evil, but human beings are naturally selfish and have desires that are very selfish sometimes a desire for pleasure, reputation, or power that in order to fulfill requires negative consequences to other people.

Humans evolved this way because it is necessary for our overall survival as a species.  The reason that the average Joe knows right from wrong is because there is an instinctive morality that evolved as we developed as a social species.  We know that helping each other, looking out for each other, treating others with courtesy as opposed to hostility--these are all preferable because they enhance our own chances of survival.

 

Likewise, people can also be complete dicks at times.  This is also a product of evolution.  If one of your ancestors 27,435 years ago hadn't selfishly hoarded food, you might not be here today.  Struggles for power and position are seen all throughout the animal kingdom.  This is because, generally speaking, a social species has a better chance of survival under the leadership of one member.

 

This is why humans feel the need to serve under a good leader; or, in your case, an imaginary one.

 

IF you read my OP you will find no where that I declared my statements to be true.  In fact, I simply mentioned where I'm at right now theistically and just very recently developed belief in God and I simply mentioned my favorite explanation of the God of the Old Testament.  It was explained much better than that to me but I summed it up in a few of my own words.

 

I admit that I am lukewarm and don't claim to know the truth so don't have much passion for preaching the scriptures because I myself agree with anyone who says that they contradict themselves.  I personally don't know how any Christian who has read the Bible could claim that it doesn't Contradict itself.

 

What does any of that have to do with the fact that evolution explains both morality and selfishness without the need of gods, saviors, and sins?