My 2 cents

[TheRedneckProfessor]

And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, ² and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. ³ So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; ⁴ for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”  

Luke 21:1-4

 

Ironic that you would be putting your "Two Cents" into this forum, isn't it?

[bornagainathiest]

 

I eat lions for breakfast. If all your “fiercest” one can do is take warning passages out of context then I’m not impressed. The verses quoted were warnings given by God to the Hebrews that were being persecuted for their faith in Christ to not abandon their trust in Him by returning to the ways of the OT.

 

But for the sake of discussion, I’ll play the devil’s advocate and demonstrate to you why that is only a warning passage and couldn’t be anything more than that. So the sentence structure of verse 4 in Greek, places the word impossible (adunatos in greek) in first position, which happens to be several lines away from the verbs which it modifies, thus strongly emphasizing on the impossibility of this hypothetical situation. In this line of thought, it seems that the passage states the obvious – if you have already fallen away, then it is impossible for you to repent. It’s like saying that if you’ve died, it’s impossible to drink water. So the key question is, have you fallen away? If it is possible for you to repent, which is and will be during the duration of your lifetime, up to the very point that you cease to be, then you have not “fallen away” in the sense of crossing the point of no return, which is the physical death.

 

That's interesting logic, Bibler.

 

Why would God give a warning to anyone about something that couldn't happen to them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[whitehorse]

 

Hey everybody, I see you guys have turned your back on Christ, so I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom. I've noticed some Christians have tried to do the same but most of them seem to back off fairly quickly and I'm pretty disappointed with that. I'm here to stay and fight your demons, and with The Lord's help maybe save a soul or two. So bring it on!

Now, my only appeal is that since you're a bunch of people and I'm just one dude, if you have questions, please try to focus on one at a time so we may be able to discuss it properly, instead of throwing dozens of 'em left and right.

Oh my God, a Christian? Thank you head God.

[whitehorse]

I've got so many questions, that never get answered because I keep getting kicked out of Christan chat forums. So to start

 

Why do Christians kick me out of their forums for just voicing my opinions, and challenging their views? If they know they are right, what does it matter if I'm wrong. I'm the one who is foolish not them, but they offend so easy and hold a grudge for a long time.

 

WHY!

[nutrichuckles93]

Agreed. What do you guys have to be afraid of if you're so sure you're right? And you say non-Christians persecute you.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Hey everybody, I see you guys have turned your back on Christ, so I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom. I've noticed some Christians have tried to do the same but most of them seem to back off fairly quickly and I'm pretty disappointed with that. I'm here to stay and fight your demons, and with The Lord's help maybe save a soul or two. So bring it on!

Now, my only appeal is that since you're a bunch of people and I'm just one dude, if you have questions, please try to focus on one at a time so we may be able to discuss it properly, instead of throwing dozens of 'em left and right.

 

Aww damn, looks like I'm late to the party.

 

Welcome to Ex-C! More specifically welcome to the lions den... we were getting hungry.

 

Looks like there is plenty of questions thus far so I'll let you answer them and see if there is anything unanswered.

 

When/if you have time I would ask why do you believe what you wrote in your first post? There are a lot of assumptions in that first post... why do you believe them? On what grounds?

 

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

You know, 2¢ won't get you anything anymore. Just sayin'.

 

 

I see you guys have turned your back on Christ

 

No, you don't see that. You just assume that. I haven't turned my back on Christ any more than you've turned your back on Santa Claus.

 

Since you want questions, let me ask you: What convinced you that Christianity is true? I'm not asking for apologetics arguments that you now want to convince us. I'm asking for what specifically convinced you. Also, how old were you at the time?

 

[Bibler]

 

 

But surely you can see that an appeal to scripture does not help you here. To claim that God has provided us with a "guidebook" of sorts in the Bible does not in any way help to resolve the issue that I raised. How do you know that the Bible actually reflects the will of God?

 

To appeal to scripture is to dodge the question rather than answer it. I ask again: by what authority do you claim to know the will of God? Please take this question seriously this time.

 

I already mentioned that you’re building your argument on an axiom. I do not claim to know the will of The Lord, and I already presented my thesis on why I don’t need to, in order to know how to act in favor of it. So, tell me, by what authority do you claim to be justified of murdering your father?

 

 

Bibler, how do you reconcile the basic immorality of Christianity -- letting someone die in your place to placate an evil god that tortures sentient beings for eternity?

 

I haven’t let Christ die for me. It has already happened, whether I would have let it happen or not is irrelevant to the fact that it has happened (I wouldn’t have let it happen if it was up to me, just saying). All I can do is either accept or reject His sacrifice. There is no such thing as eternal torture in the form you’re imagining it to be. You are either with The Lord or you are eternally separated from Him – in the “grave”, forever alone.

 

 

 

So, you are saying that we cannot be "fallen away" until we have died in our apostasy?  That, no matter how much we have rejected Christianity, no matter how much we may work to undermine it, we can still repent as long as we have breath in our bodies?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

That strikes me as just a feeble excuse to attempt to explain away the existence of ex-Christians:  "Oh, they're not really gone..."

 

It also puts Paul the Antichrist at odds with Jesus again -- Why would there be such a thing as an "unforgivable sin" (as in Mark 3:22–30) unless it were possible to actually commit it?

 

You definitely are able to commit the unforgivable sin. However, that is all it means. That it is unforgivable. 1 John 1:9. While you may not be forgiven of certain sins, if you do repent honestly and sincerely, with all your heart, your unrighteousness will be cleansed, respectively by the blood of the Mashiach that He spilled for all of us on the Cross. 1 Timothy 1:13-15

 

 

 

So are you saying that after someone dies, they are still actively crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public grace? 

 

Yes.

 

 

I think you have inadvertently discovered the "No True Irishman" fallacy.  In essence, it is the converse of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.  Whereas most christians might claim that we were never true christians to begin with, babbler attempts to claim that we are not true ex-christians.  As fallacies go, this one doesn't get as much air time as it should.

 

Bingo! Christians, ex-Christians, those are all just social constructs that we use to define ourselves, so we can get to know ourselves better. God already knows us all, what we are, who we are, and who we will become. In the end, you’re either with Him or not with Him, so what you’ve been throughout your life, like ex-this or ex-that, wouldn’t really matter.

 

That's interesting logic, Bibler.

 

Why would God give a warning to anyone about something that couldn't happen to them?

 

 

It definitely could happen. You can fall away. You can cross the point of no return, which I already said is the physical death. However, you still haven’t fallen away, and you haven’t crossed that point.

 

 

I see there are more questions.. sorry, I will try to get back at you later.

[Margee]

 

Hey everybody, I see you guys have turned your back on Christ, so I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom. I've noticed some Christians have tried to do the same but most of them seem to back off fairly quickly and I'm pretty disappointed with that. I'm here to stay and fight your demons, and with The Lord's help maybe save a soul or two. So bring it on!

Now, my only appeal is that since you're a bunch of people and I'm just one dude, if you have questions, please try to focus on one at a time so we may be able to discuss it properly, instead of throwing dozens of 'em left and right.

 

Rephrasing Cocky OP:

 

Hey everybody, I've been sitting here for a few months reading hundreds of testimonies of how and why you guys lost your faith and I feel so bad about this. My heart bleeds that you lost your faith and some of you have suffered greatly. So many of you seemed to be hurt by the church and disappointed in God's ''mysterious'' ways. I have also read  enough to see that you all know the bible inside and out (much better than me) because many of you have studied the 'word' for so many years trying to understand it.

 

 The holy spirit has moved me to try and understand what happened and maybe I could help a little? I would like to 'win' all of you (not one or two) back into his kingdom because the lord doesn't like to lose one of his little lost ones'.

 

I've noticed some christians have tried to do the same but most of them seem to back off fairly quickly because they come across so cocky and not with an ounce of 'the love of christ' and I am so disappointed in my non-loving christian brothers and sisters for treating you this way. I'd like to apologize for them. They think you woke up one morning and said, ''Fuck christianity'' without gently questioning 'why'. I'm here, full of the love of the lord (and not to show you how smart I am with the bible) to listen and hopefully help you. Maybe the lord will use me to heal some of your hearts.

 

Sincerely, Bibler

............................................................................................................

 

How dare you. 

 

Welcome to Ex-c. 

[whitehorse]

 

I eat lions for breakfast. If all your “fiercest” one can do is take warning passages out of context then I’m not impressed. The verses quoted were warnings given by God to the Hebrews that were being persecuted for their faith in Christ to not abandon their trust in Him by returning to the ways of the OT.

 

But for the sake of discussion, I’ll play the devil’s advocate and demonstrate to you why that is only a warning passage and couldn’t be anything more than that. So the sentence structure of verse 4 in Greek, places the word impossible (adunatos in greek) in first position, which happens to be several lines away from the verbs which it modifies, thus strongly emphasizing on the impossibility of this hypothetical situation. In this line of thought, it seems that the passage states the obvious – if you have already fallen away, then it is impossible for you to repent. It’s like saying that if you’ve died, it’s impossible to drink water. So the key question is, have you fallen away? If it is possible for you to repent, which is and will be during the duration of your lifetime, up to the very point that you cease to be, then you have not “fallen away” in the sense of crossing the point of no return, which is the physical death.

Not if your a Mormon.

 

Edit: Mormon doctrine states that everyone gets a second chance at redemption after they die, in the spirit world.

 

So there's more of this in the next world, (Doing dodgy eyes)

 

 

[nutrichuckles93]

You are also approaching us under the presumption that your reality (Christianity is true) can come here to our reality (Christianity is not true) and we will simply accept that.

 

Your mistake is in thinking you can propose to us that the resurrection took place and that we will take it as fact. But that's not what we believe.

 

It's not that we don't believe in the bible and are simply choosing to turn our backs on its savior. It's that we don't even believe such an account to be true. So in truth, you can't even meet us "where we are," as Christians would say. We aren't on the same field of reality.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I have another question, Bibler. Have you previously posted on this board as either Sight or Reverendturmoil?

 

[bornagainathiest]

ThereAndBackAgain...

 

"So, you are saying that we cannot be "fallen away" until we have died in our apostasy?  That, no matter how much we have rejected Christianity, no matter how much we may work to undermine it, we can still repent as long as we have breath in our bodies?"

 

Bibler...

 

"Yes."

.

.

.

Well, that isn't much of a selling point for getting us back into the kingdom, is it?

We freely chose to become Christians, but you say we cannot freely choose to become Ex-Christians?  

Just as god made it impossible for Adam and Eve to return to Eden, so he's made it impossible for us to leave the light and return to the darkness?

 

Hmmm...  you won't win many of us back to the kingdom with that approach.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

readyforchange...

 

"So are you saying that after someone dies, they are still actively crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public [dis]grace? "

 

Bibler...

 

"Yes."

.

.

.

Please explain how someone can go past the point of no return for repentance (by dying) but still be actively re-crucifying Jesus and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

 

[TABA]

 

ThereAndBackAgain...

 

"So, you are saying that we cannot be "fallen away" until we have died in our apostasy?  That, no matter how much we have rejected Christianity, no matter how much we may work to undermine it, we can still repent as long as we have breath in our bodies?"

 

Bibler...

 

"Yes."

 

 

@Bibler, I know that's what you want to believe.  That's what I wanted to believe when I was a Christian.  But Hebrews 6, as pointed out by BAA, says that those who have fallen away and cannot be restored "are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace".  And you explain this by saying that these are dead people doing this. There is absolutely no implication that these apostates are dead.  These are the kind of mental gymnastics that I too engaged in to make scripture and Christianity make sense.  It's a relief not to have to do that anymore. 

 

In any case, whether it's backed up by scripture or not, most of us here reached a point in our deconversion process when we knew there was no going back.  Our member Joshpantera describes it as having Intellectual Immunity to Christianity (and theism in general).  So you have your work cut out for you.  I'm just sayin'. 

 

[Bibler]

 

Well, that isn't much of a selling point for getting us back into the kingdom, is it?

We freely chose to become Christians, but you say we cannot freely choose to become Ex-Christians?  

Just as god made it impossible for Adam and Eve to return to Eden, so he's made it impossible for us to leave the light and return to the darkness?

 

Hmmm...  you won't win many of us back to the kingdom with that approach.

 

You strike me as a thinking person, and it surprises me that you're missing my obvious point. I don't know whether that's deliberate or you're just reading through my posts in some sort of superficial way. I have not said that you can't freely choose to be ex-Christians. You can define yourself and your positions how ever you want to. They are temporary. Yes, you might be ex-Christian now, but what if hypothetically you became a Christian again? The Almighty knows whether you will "fall away" or not, He knows who and what you are going to be in the very end, in your last breath. That is what matters. 

 

 

You are also approaching us under the presumption that your reality (Christianity is true) can come here to our reality (Christianity is not true) and we will simply accept that.

 

Your mistake is in thinking you can propose to us that the resurrection took place and that we will take it as fact. But that's not what we believe.

 

It's not that we don't believe in the bible and are simply choosing to turn our backs on its savior. It's that we don't even believe such an account to be true. So in truth, you can't even meet us "where we are," as Christians would say. We aren't on the same field of reality.

 

You're absolutely right about that. But can you provide me with a scientific theory that the universe came into existence by itself? That it has no creator/designer? As for the latter, please don't give me the "you can't prove a negative" crap. I want you to provide me not with evidence for a negative, but with evidence for a positive that by its nature refutes the negative I'm professing. The Big Bang theory wouldn't do it either as even though it is greatly supported by observation, it doesn't at all attempt to explain how the universe originated.

Until then, maybe you could propose some kind of middle ground where our "realities" could meet?

 

 

Please explain how someone can go past the point of no return for repentance (by dying) but still be actively re-crucifying Jesus and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

 

 

I know that's what you want to believe.  That's what I wanted to believe when I was a Christian.  But Hebrews 6, as pointed out by BAA, says that those who have fallen away and cannot be restored "are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace".  And you explain this by saying that these are dead people doing this. There is absolutely no implication that these apostates are dead.  These are the kind of mental gymnastics that I too engaged in to make scripture and Christianity make sense.  It's a relief not to have to do that anymore. 

 

In any case, whether it's backed up by scripture or not, most of us here reached a point in our deconversion process when we knew there was no going back.  Our member Joshpantera describes it as having Intellectual Immunity to Christianity (and theism in general).  So you have your work cut out for you.  I'm just sayin'. 

 

Yes, you can still actively subject Christ to public disgrace after your physical body has passed away. Infact, you will be doing that for eternity. Merely by the fact that you have left your mark on this world, you've become history. You will be known as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away". And thus you will be shaming His Name.

 

EDIT:

 

I have another question, Bibler. Have you previously posted on this board as either Sight or Reverendturmoil?

 

Sorry, I missed that. And to answer your question - nope, I have not.

 

[nutrichuckles93]

I'm not that intelligent. I don't know how the universe came into existence, and I'm not about to dig through hours of theories online to find one I like to convince one person I'll never meet in person that I have a reasonable position. From where I stand, there's no way for any person to claim to know. Which is something Christianity tries to do. And yet where did your creator come from? Did he pop out of thin air one day? Who's to say there was no creator and that the universe did that itself? Maybe my position is as unreasonable to you as yours is to me. There's no evidence for your deity other than some book claiming him so.

 

You conveniently failed to address my post where I said that your God's failure to truly act in the world is a major reason why I think Christianity is rubbish. What do you say to that?

[florduh]

This one's so much better than the previous 489 Christians who came here to school us. This one has the true understanding of the Bible and Christianity. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Sorry, I missed that. And to answer your question - nope, I have not.

 

Ok, thanks. I was just curious. I'll take you at your word.

 

Evidently you also missed my previous post, unless you simply chose to not respond to it.

 

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

You assume your Gods exist.  You assume certain writings are from your Gods.  You assume you have special access to your Gods who provide you with special revelations.  You assume your Gods have authority over everything.

 

Do I need to pretend all that is true (like you do) to play along with your proselytizing?  

 

Can I instead ask you to demonstrate the accuracy of your premises before you begin your sales pitch?

 

Bibler has not responding to my post above.  His subsequent posts demonstrate he answers "Yes" to the first question and "No" to the second one.  So be it.  Deconstruction to follow.

 

 

..

I don't know whether that's deliberate or you're just reading through my posts in some sort of superficial way.

...

False dichotomy fallacy wth a side salad of hubris.  A third choice is obvious, "...or perhaps I am wrong in my beliefs."

 

 

...

The Almighty knows whether you will "fall away" or not, He knows who and what you are going to be in the very end, in your last breath.

...

Mere assertion fallacy.

 

 

...

But can you provide me with a scientific theory that the universe came into existence by itself? That it has no creator/designer? As for the latter, please don't give me the "you can't prove a negative" crap. I want you to provide me not with evidence for a negative, but with evidence for a positive that by its nature refutes the negative I'm professing.

...

Shifting the burden of proof...a standard canard from Chapter 3 of the book Disingenuous Theism for Dummies.

He's asking BAA to falsify his a priori assumption that his particular group of sky fairies exist and related dogma is true.

 

 

...

Yes, you can still actively subject Christ to public disgrace after your physical body has passed away. Infact, you will be doing that for eternity. Merely by the fact that you have left your mark on this world, you've become history. You will be known as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away". And thus you will be shaming His Name.

...

 

Several mere assertion fallacies.  We have a gnostic theist here, folks.

[bornagainathiest]

You are also approaching us under the presumption that your reality (Christianity is true) can come here to our reality (Christianity is not true) and we will simply accept that.

 

Your mistake is in thinking you can propose to us that the resurrection took place and that we will take it as fact. But that's not what we believe.

 

It's not that we don't believe in the bible and are simply choosing to turn our backs on its savior. It's that we don't even believe such an account to be true. So in truth, you can't even meet us "where we are," as Christians would say. We aren't on the same field of reality.

 

You're absolutely right about that. But can you provide me with a scientific theory that the universe came into existence by itself? That it has no creator/designer? As for the latter, please don't give me the "you can't prove a negative" crap. I want you to provide me not with evidence for a negative, but with evidence for a positive that by its nature refutes the negative I'm professing. The Big Bang theory wouldn't do it either as even though it is greatly supported by observation, it doesn't at all attempt to explain how the universe originated.

Until then, maybe you could propose some kind of middle ground where our "realities" could meet?

.

.

.

Bibler,

You might just be the very first Christian I've encountered who doesn't violate the Copernican principle in their understanding of Big Bang cosmology.  

 

The way I can find out is to ask you if you conflate the beginning of the Inflationary process with the Big Bang that we observe from Earth.

 

And your answer is... ?

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

OK bibler, 

     I have a question. I know a lot of christian belief is faith based. Meaning a person just has to believe without proof. However there are many instances in scripture where there is physical proof. IE there are places mentioned in the bible that either still exist or have been excavated through archeological efforts. 

     On a side note here in America we have excavated many many ancient Indian settlements and can see where holes were dug for fire pits. Posts for tepee etc. We can find where they chipped arrowheads. We can find pot shards etc etc etc. 

     However in the bible. Possibly the most important story of the bible is told concerning Moses. Who according to christian belief wrote the first five books of the bible. He laid the foundations that even Christ was set on. Yet Archeologists tried for years to find the foot print that 2 million people, plus cattle, plus all their belongings would have left behind in such an event only to abandon the search as it was considered to be a fruitless effort. Now could you please explain why this is? Why can we find areas where Indians chipped out arrowheads with much much smaller groups of people. And we can't find evidence of that specific multitude of people? Please spare me the excuse that God erased the evidence or that a couple of supposed wagon wheels in the red sea are proof. How did such a vast multitude of people live in the desert for 40 years without leaving a massive amount of evidence?

 

Thank you

Dark Bishop

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Bingo! Christians, ex-Christians, those are all just social constructs that we use to define ourselves, so we can get to know ourselves better. God already knows us all, what we are, who we are, and who we will become. In the end, you’re either with Him or not with Him, so what you’ve been throughout your life, like ex-this or ex-that, wouldn’t really matter.

Babbler,

 

You claimed earlier that you came here because "I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom".  Now, however, you put forth the claim that it doesn't matter if we are christians or not because "god already knows what we are, who we are, and who we will become."  If the label by which we are identified is merely a "social construct that we use to define ourselves"; then, why, indeed, does it matter whether we are christians or ex-christians? 

 

However, if the holy spirit moved you, that's a different beast altogether.  If the holy spirit moved you, then obviously it does matter to god whether we are christians or ex-christians.  Moreover, you wouldn't be here trying to win some of us back if you didn't agree with the holy spirit.  Which means you do think it matters, despite making the contradictory claim that it doesn't.

 

So, which is it?  Does it matter whether we are christians, or does it not?

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

[Astreja]

 

I haven’t let Christ die for me. It has already happened, whether I would have let it happen or not is irrelevant to the fact that it has happened (I wouldn’t have let it happen if it was up to me, just saying). All I can do is either accept or reject His sacrifice. There is no such thing as eternal torture in the form you’re imagining it to be. You are either with The Lord or you are eternally separated from Him – in the “grave”, forever alone.

 

I reject the so-called "sacrifice" unconditionally (assuming it even happened, which I very much doubt).  Not interested in eternal life, not at all.

[disillusioned]

 

 

I already mentioned that you’re building your argument on an axiom. I do not claim to know the will of The Lord, and I already presented my thesis on why I don’t need to, in order to know how to act in favor of it. So, tell me, by what authority do you claim to be justified of murdering your father?

 

You are ducking the question.

 

You stated in a previous post that God has revealed enough of his will to you through the Bible that you can know what actions are according his will and what actions violate it. This is a direct claim to have knowledge of the will of God. That your professed knowledge is sourced from the Bible does not matter to me at all. I also don't care that you only claim to have incomplete knowledge of God's will. Wherever it comes from, and however incomplete it is, you are claiming to know the will of God. I'm making no assumption here. You have made this claim directly in this thread.

 

I will ask it one more time: by what authority do you make this claim?