My 2 cents

[bornagainathiest]

BAA

 

"Please explain how someone can go past the point of no return for repentance (by dying) but still be actively re-crucifying Jesus and subjecting him to public disgrace."

 

Bibler,

 

"Yes, you can still actively subject Christ to public disgrace after your physical body has passed away. In fact, you will be doing that for eternity. Merely by the fact that you have left your mark on this world, you've become history. You will be known as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away". And thus you will be shaming His Name."

.

.

.

I've corrected your post Bibler.

You couched your reply in factual terms - when these are not facts, but statements of belief on your part. 

 

"Yes, I BELIEVE THAT you can still actively subject Christ to public disgrace after your physical body has passed away. In fact, I BELIEVE THAT you will be doing that for eternity. Merely by the fact that you have left your mark on this world, you've become history.  I BELIEVE THAT You will be known as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away". And I BELIEVE THAT thus you will be shaming His Name."

 

 

 

[Astreja]

 

You will be known as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away". And thus you will be shaming His Name.

 

A god whose name can be shamed by a mortal isn't much of a god.  I continue to be baffled as to why believers think such a powerless git will save them from the inevitability and finality of death.

[Bibler]

 

Bibler,

You might just be the very first Christian I've encountered who doesn't violate the Copernican principle in their understanding of Big Bang cosmology.  

 

The way I can find out is to ask you if you conflate the beginning of the Inflationary process with the Big Bang that we observe from Earth.

 

And your answer is... ?

 

Sorry, I think I'm not understanding your question properly. Could you be more specific? According to TBBT, inflation is what caused the space in the embryonic universe to expand rapidly within a trillionth of a second, so certainly there would have been points that have moved away from each other at a rate faster than the speed of light . So if we take that for truth, obviously there would be stars, galaxies, clusters, superclusters and whatnot whose light hasn't yet had the time to reach us. However, I have a feeling that you're setting me up for a "gotcha" moment. I am well aware of the hypothesis claiming that the inflationary process can go on infinitely into the past, thus rendering the universe eternal, but I don't believe in that.

 

 

Ok, thanks. I was just curious. I'll take you at your word.

 

Evidently you also missed my previous post, unless you simply chose to not respond to it.

 

I saw it, but I would rather not share that information here, if that's okay with you. It's a purely subjective personal experience that would not pass your scientific testing and experimentation anyways and it would probably end up being mocked, so I'd rather not submit myself to that.

 

 

OK bibler, 

     I have a question. I know a lot of christian belief is faith based. Meaning a person just has to believe without proof. However there are many instances in scripture where there is physical proof. IE there are places mentioned in the bible that either still exist or have been excavated through archeological efforts. 

     On a side note here in America we have excavated many many ancient Indian settlements and can see where holes were dug for fire pits. Posts for tepee etc. We can find where they chipped arrowheads. We can find pot shards etc etc etc. 

     However in the bible. Possibly the most important story of the bible is told concerning Moses. Who according to christian belief wrote the first five books of the bible. He laid the foundations that even Christ was set on. Yet Archeologists tried for years to find the foot print that 2 million people, plus cattle, plus all their belongings would have left behind in such an event only to abandon the search as it was considered to be a fruitless effort. Now could you please explain why this is? Why can we find areas where Indians chipped out arrowheads with much much smaller groups of people. And we can't find evidence of that specific multitude of people? Please spare me the excuse that God erased the evidence or that a couple of supposed wagon wheels in the red sea are proof. How did such a vast multitude of people live in the desert for 40 years without leaving a massive amount of evidence?

 

Thank you

Dark Bishop

 

Great question. But the answer is simple. Exodus is an allegory, nothing more than that.

 

 

Babbler,

 

You claimed earlier that you came here because "I felt like the Holy Spirit has moved me to try and win some of you back into His Kingdom".  Now, however, you put forth the claim that it doesn't matter if we are christians or not because "god already knows what we are, who we are, and who we will become."  If the label by which we are identified is merely a "social construct that we use to define ourselves"; then, why, indeed, does it matter whether we are christians or ex-christians? 

 

However, if the holy spirit moved you, that's a different beast altogether.  If the holy spirit moved you, then obviously it does matter to god whether we are christians or ex-christians.  Moreover, you wouldn't be here trying to win some of us back if you didn't agree with the holy spirit.  Which means you do think it matters, despite making the contradictory claim that it doesn't.

 

So, which is it?  Does it matter whether we are christians, or does it not?

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

 

Yes, it does matter. However, it only matters at the end of your life. So if we say you were a Christian your whole life, but then ceased to be and turned your back on The Almighty moments before you passed away, and vice versa, would it have mattered what you considered yourself to be before that?

 

 

You are ducking the question.

 

You stated in a previous post that God has revealed enough of his will to you through the Bible that you can know what actions are according his will and what actions violate it. This is a direct claim to have knowledge of the will of God. That your professed knowledge is sourced from the Bible does not matter to me at all. I also don't care that you only claim to have incomplete knowledge of God's will. Wherever it comes from, and however incomplete it is, you are claiming to know the will of God. I'm making no assumption here. You have made this claim directly in this thread.

 

I will ask it one more time: by what authority do you make this claim?

 

I said what I had to say on this subject, and I must assume that you've gotten my point since your paraphrasing of my statements seem to be spot-on.  It seems to me that your issue now is how can I know that the Bible is the Word of God. If you'd like, I can go into more detail about this with you.

[Bibler]

 

You conveniently failed to address my post where I said that your God's failure to truly act in the world is a major reason why I think Christianity is rubbish. What do you say to that?

 

Sorry mate, but I'm fighting Satan here. I will try to address you in my next post.

[florduh]

"Sorry mate, but I'm fighting Satan here. I will try to address you in my next post."

 

And we're fighting cognitive dissonance, a thing which actually exists. And a much more formidable foe, I might add.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Great question. But the answer is simple. Exodus is an allegory, nothing more than that.

 

Most of the bible is allegory - nothing more than stories told to explain existence, mixed with a bit of history (Slated to the writers view), and many (bald) assertions.

 

Is Adam and Eve and their sin allegory?

[sdelsolray]

 

 

Most of the bible is allegory - nothing more that stories told to explain existence, mixed with a bit of history, and many assertions.

 

Is Adam and Eve and their sin allegory?

 

Bibler will claim gnosis (i.e., knowledge) of which parts/stories of the Bible are allegory and which parts/stories are literal.  He no doubt considers himself an authority on what is allegorical and what is literal.  Those choices will conveniently, of course, match his a priori theistic beliefs/assumptions and will be devoid of any independent rational explanation for the distinctions, such as textual criticism, lack of evidentiary support, tracing to earlier mythological sources, etc.  Instead, I suspect he will pull his "I have special revelation from one of my sky fairies" card, although I equally suspect he is already aware that folks here won't buy into such hollow hubris.  We'll see.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Yes, it does matter. However, it only matters at the end of your life. So if we say you were a Christian your whole life, but then ceased to be and turned your back on The Almighty moments before you passed away, and vice versa, would it have mattered what you considered yourself to be before that?

This fails to answer the question of why the holy spirit would move you to come here and try to win us back.  Obviously the majority of us are still alive, myself included; yet the holy spirit felt compelled to compel you to come.  While we were all still alive.  If the god you believe in knows us, who we are, and who we will become, as you claimed before, then he already knows which of us would die in apostasy and which of us would submit to a deathbed conversion.  He already knows which of us will be "saved" and which would be lost.  He would therefore not need you to come here and try to win some of us back; and certainly not at this point when we're all still alive.  Furthermore, given that we are all still alive, and, in your own words, it doesn't matter until we die, why would we need you to come here and try to win some of us back?  None of us would require your services until the moment that old reaper man come a-knockin'.

 

So, explain to me again what exactly it is you're doing here?  Besides obviously contradicting yourself.

[sdelsolray]

TRP, good analysis.  We don't need him.  He needs us to satisfy his need to proselytize and stroke his ego.  Easy peasy.

[nutrichuckles93]

I appreciate all of the other ex-c's here. Just throwing that out there. You are all much more articulate at this than I am. I like learning from all of the veterans here to form arguments.

 

And seriously, Bibler? "Battling satan here?" You could've just said you would get to it later. You didn't need to throw in a "feel for me as I fight my demons" plea. Wish I'd gotten there before Florduh.

[Bibler]

 

 

Most of the bible is allegory - nothing more that stories told to explain existence, mixed with a bit of history, and many assertions.

 

Is Adam and Eve and their sin allegory?

 

Yes.

 

 

This fails to answer the question of why the holy spirit would move you to come here and try to win us back.  Obviously the majority of us are still alive, myself included; yet the holy spirit felt compelled to compel you to come.  While we were all still alive.  If the god you believe in knows us, who we are, and who we will become, as you claimed before, then he already knows which of us would die in apostasy and which of us would submit to a deathbed conversion.  He already knows which of us will be "saved" and which would be lost.  He would therefore not need you to come here and try to win some of us back; and certainly not at this point when we're all still alive.  Furthermore, given that we are all still alive, and, in your own words, it doesn't matter until we die, why would we need you to come here and try to win some of us back?  None of us would require your services until the moment that old reaper man come a-knockin'.

 

So, explain to me again what exactly it is you're doing here?  Besides obviously contradicting yourself.

 

Your argument basically states that since The Almighty is all-knowing and already knows which of you will die in Him and which will die in apostasy, then I am not needed. But what if I get somebody to return to the Living God, and that somebody passes away in Him? Since He is all-knowing, He'd have known that I would come here, that I would help somebody find the way back to Him, and die in Him. And I believe that is no coincidence that I felt moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

 

I appreciate all of the other ex-c's here. Just throwing that out there. You are all much more articulate at this than I am. I like learning from all of the veterans here to form arguments.

 

And seriously, Bibler? "Battling satan here?" You could've just said you would get to it later. You didn't need to throw in a "feel for me as I fight my demons" plea. Wish I'd gotten there before Florduh.

 

I have no demons. I'm battling yours. I believe you can overcome them and feel the pure love of Yeshua, our Lord and Savior, once again!

[sdelsolray]

Bibler is backpeddling from his gnostic claims, at least a bit.  Notice how he is beginning to preface some of his sentences and clauses with "I believe..." or "I do not believe...".  Points for him on this voluntary adjustment, although I suspect some prodding from others helped.

[nutrichuckles93]

I would prefer Bibler, if you would answer my previous query. You said you would in your next post. Perhaps you forgot that.

 

I felt no love from "the born and risen savior Yeshua." Nothing but disappointment and frustration that he failed to provide evidence of himself when I asked him for it. Nothing but silence.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

 

Great question. But the answer is simple. Exodus is an allegory, nothing more than that.

 

 

Seriously? This is your answer?

 

Then I would have to say you are almost there if you will open your eyes. Because here is the problem. The bible's foundations are in these first 5 books, allegedly written by non other than Moses. The passover itself comes from the story of  moses. And also two other holidays. 

 

 

Passover
A month later, on Nisan 15, the all-important Jewish festival of Passover (“Pesach” in Hebrew) begins. Historically, it is the first of the three festivals, and commemorates the Israelites’ escape from slavery in Egypt, as described in the Book of Exodus, and all of the miracles associated with that event. (One of those miracles is that in the final one of the 10 Plagues, the angel of death “passed over” the homes of the Israelites when it slayed the first-born sons of the Egyptians – hence the name.) It is a celebration of spring and of the rebirth of the Jews as a nation.
Like Sukkot, Pesach lasts seven days (eight outside Israel), with its first and last days being holy days.
During the entire festival, one refrains from eating bread, and by inference, an entire variety of other foods that have the potential to ferment, so as to recall the haste with which the Israelites left Egypt, with not enough time to allow their bread to rise sufficiently. That’s the reason we eat “unleavened bread” – matzo – both at the seder, the ritual meal observed at the start of the holiday, and throughout the holiday’s duration.
Shavuot
Seven weeks after the Exodus, Moses received the Torah – that is, the corpus of Jewish law, both written and oral -- from God on Mount Sinai, a momentous event commemorated by Shavuot (“weeks”), a one-day festival that also marks the spring harvest, when the first fruits were gathered and brought to the Temple as offerings.

Shemini Atzeret and Simhat Torah
Shemini Atzeret and Simhat Torah fall immediately after Sukkot. In Israel, the two holidays are the same day; outside the country, they fall on consecutive days.
Shemini Atzeret (“the eighth day of assembly”) is of obscure meaning. Simhat Torah (“rejoicing of the Torah”) marks the festive end and the immediate restarting of the year-long cycle of reading the Five Books of Moses in synagogue.  
 

You may consider the story of moses an allegory. But to the Jews this was a very real event. If there was a Jesus it was very real to him because:

 

1. It contained prophecies that pointed to his coming and/or relate to his life which are referenced by Jesus and the apostles. Here is a website showing 8 out of 40 old testament prophecies of Jesus that were in the Penteuch. 

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies/

 

2. Even Jesus said he was the fulfillment of the law in Mathew 5:17.

 

3. Moses is mentioned in the four gospels 37 times, many of those times by Jesus himself

 

4. Moses supposedly appeared with Elias in front of Jesus and the apostles in Mark 9:4.

 

     No where in the bible are you going to find that the story of exodus was an allegory. It was believed to be a very real event. The only reason that you say it is an allegory is because of christian apologetics. Which came as a result of lack of evidence, they found out the exodus didn't happen and had to make an excuse so they could keep their faith.  They wouldn't even have looked for the evidence if they thought it was only an allegory. 

 

Also think about this. The bible says Jesus was without sin and neither was guile found in his mouth. If you believe Jesus existed and you must or you wouldn't be a christian. You must believe this statement. Guile is deciet. So Jesus couldn't have presented moses as a person who lived and breathed, who was close to God, and in whom God trusted to give the law to the isrealites at Mount Sinai if he couldn't be deceptive. And if he was in fact continuing the deceptive lie that moses was real then he was in fact not a spotless lamb was he? No that would make him a liar. And if he was a liar he was a sinner.

 

Now you may say that Jesus didn't know it was an allegory. That he thought it was real so he didn't know it was a lie. On that I would call bullshit. Hell we are talking about the almighty son of God here. The only thing God kept from him was the due date for his second coming. Without the first five books of the bible everything falls apart. 

 

We know now that not only was the penteuch not written by moses but that it was written and edited by at least four different people. They are designated as "J, E, D, and P. 

 

J- was the writer that brought in Yahweh as the name for the diety that isreal worshipped.

 

E- is the writer who referred to diety as EL or Elohim. If you will do some googling on ancient Canaanite beliefs you will find that the EL mythology will explain a lot of things in the old testament. EL was originally believed to be ruler over a whole pantheon of God's. You will remember some of the names of his children from your bible studies. I'll let you look it up. It's a very breathtaking read for a christian.

 

D- is the author of deuteronomy which was a book that was "found" during the reign of king Josiah. This book conveniently reflected all of the kings own personal beliefs which he then put into governmental law after it was read before the people.

 

P- lastly P was the priestly source that organized the Torah and added their own views which gave reason for why God turned his back on them and why the Temple had been destroyed. They had sinned against him therefore they were being punished. 

 

As you can see Bibler not only did the exodus not happen, not only was Moses not a factual figure in history, it also wasn't an allegory.  It wasn't An allegory because it was a lie. It isnt a beautiful poem or story that captivates the mind and reflects God's inspiration. It is a rule book presented as an actual event in history and an actual act of God for the Isrealites. To strike fear in their hearts so that they will Obey what God has said. I mean seriously if you were brought up as a child reading about the plagues of Egypt, God opening up the ground and swallowing disobedient Isrealites, God splitting a red sea, God destroying the armies of Pharoah, God making manna fall from heaven and water to come from rocks. I mean seriously who wants to piss off that guy?

 

Now let's fast forward to Jesus, the apostles, and their teachings. What do we have now to keep us in line? HELL! Now think about all those teachings of Jesus, love, and all that jazz. But once again if you don't do what God says (believe in Jesus) not only will you die like all those people in the old testament. You are gonna fry after death for all eternity. It is just a rule book enforced by fear. And it is indoctrinated into people's minds from birth. I didn't question Santa clause until I found proof that he wasn't real. I also didn't question the bible until I didn't find proof that it was real. Well I take that back. I had begun to question certain things for awhile before I fully deconverted, things just weren't adding up.

 

I do not accept your answer bibler and your answer will in no way lead me back to God. He isn't real. He's chilling at the north pole with Santa now. It's time to open your own eyes. You've entered the lions den of Exc and you will find that most of us believed in the bible at one time, probably more so than you. We did not turn our back on God. God disappeared from our lives. We can't turn our backs on something that doesn't exist. Ironically in some cases it was through our bible studies that we came to this knowledge. 

 

Here's wishing you the best,

Dark Bishop 

 

PS I must apologise. I referred to the author D as H in my original post. It is edited now.

[Margee]

 

I believe you can overcome them and feel the pure love of Yeshua, our Lord and Savior, once again!

 

Take a look at the thousands of gods on this earth that are being worshiped and tell me how you know that your god is the right and true god?? 

 

Please answer this for me?

 

https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

I would prefer Bibler, if you would answer my previous query. You said you would in your next post. Perhaps you forgot that.

 

I felt no love from "the born and risen savior Yeshua." Nothing but disappointment and frustration that he failed to provide evidence of himself when I asked him for it. Nothing but silence.

 

I prayed that prayer many times during my four year sabbatical from church before I fully deconverted. It is sad that a God that supposedly loves us so much that he let's his son die for us can't show himself to us when we have doubts. Not at all all powerful that's for sure. Disappointment is putting it lightly.

 

DB 

[nutrichuckles93]

That is true. And that's only from my less than two year stint in Christianity. I can't even begin to comprehend those whose entire concept of reality was shattered from the god who didn't show up.

[born free]

 

 

Sorry mate, but I'm fighting Satan here. I will try to address you in my next post.

no you are not fighting satan! You are fighting knowledge, truth, science, common sense and reason. They are religion's worst enemy! You are brainwashed .... your subjective mind has fed itself only on what it wants to see and from sources within the safety of that subjective eggshell. You will never see the truth until you get outside the safety of that shell. That is YOUR call ... we cannot do it for you!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Your argument basically states that since The Almighty is all-knowing and already knows which of you will die in Him and which will die in apostasy, then I am not needed. But what if I get somebody to return to the Living God, and that somebody passes away in Him? Since He is all-knowing, He'd have known that I would come here, that I would help somebody find the way back to Him, and die in Him. And I believe that is no coincidence that I felt moved by the Holy Spirit.

Your rebuttal overlooks the claim that the all-knowing god is also all-powerful, so that, in addition to knowing who will return to him, he should also be capable of causing said return without your help and in spite of our best efforts to the contrary.  So, his omnipotence brings us back to you not being needed.

 

I think your choice of words reveals a lot more than you meant for it to.   "But what if I get somebody to return to the Living God..."  "He'd have known that I would come..."  "that I would help somebody..."  "And I believe that is no coincidence that I felt moved..."  It says a lot about you that you say a lot about you.  You are trying awfully hard to be needed, bless your heart; but if your god is all he's cracked up to be, then he really doesn't need you, or me, or any of us... except maybe florduh.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

That is true. And that's only from my less than two year stint in Christianity. I can't even begin to comprehend those whose entire concept of reality was shattered from the god who didn't show up.

 

It hurts it really does. I'm gonna be honest when I think about it to much I still start to cry. But the deconversion process is still fairly new and raw to me. I'm hoping the sadness fades over time. I shed many a tear behind the pulpit while expressing my fervent belief in God and Jesus' sacrifice. I suppose I may have to shed just as many tears to get over the fact that it was all a lie and I was deceived.

 

DB 

[nutrichuckles93]

I can only be fortunate I wasn't deceived for a larger portion of my lifetime. I am so sorry you still have to deal with that. I hope it continues to get better for you though.

[Margee]

 

 

Sorry mate, but I'm fighting Satan here. 

 

[whitehorse]

Bibler,

 

No one is going to laugh at you or mock you later if you decided to turn your life over to reason.

 

And you don't have to join any club, you can make up your own world view.

 

 

[whitehorse]

 

I can only be fortunate I wasn't deceived for a larger portion of my lifetime. I am so sorry you still have to deal with that. I hope it continues to get better for you though.

Don't be so easy on yourself.

[whitehorse]

 

 

It hurts it really does. I'm gonna be honest when I think about it to much I still start to cry. But the deconversion process is still fairly new and raw to me. I'm hoping the sadness fades over time. I shed many a tear behind the pulpit while expressing my fervent belief in God and Jesus' sacrifice. I suppose I may have to shed just as many tears to get over the fact that it was all a lie and I was deceived.

 

DB 

Learning to have fun again drives the spirit of head Jesus out.