My 2 cents

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi disillusioned, by the transcendental argument, you mean the Cornelius Van Til one, kept alive now by John Frame and Matt Slick and other Calvinist apologists? My best response to it so far is just to say it is stupid. TAGers are very slippery devils because, obviously, they refuse to argue from a shared set of assumptions. I think their shtick boils down to "your world view can't account for logic, but mine can, because God." It's like arguing with someone who denies that there are any starting points in an inquiry, or like arguing with a solipsist.

 

I have read that there are some Catholics who try to adapt TAG, but basically, TAG operates from Calvinist doctrine about the consequences of the Fall, which is inimical to Catholic doctrine. The RCs deny that human nature is so depraved that the natural man cannot properly know anything, which is the thesis of TAGers.

 

If you've written things on the classic cosmological arguments, I'd like to see them - and forgive me if you've already posted such on here and if I've forgotten.

 

When Dark Bishop stepped in to pick up the ball in the now no-longer stalled debate about God's existence, I had been tempted to volunteer to take the "God exists" position as an exercise. I was glad that Dark Bishop stepped in, though, because I wasn't sure that what I'd write would be helpful, or that it would be worth the time. But I would be interested in discussing classic args for theism, perhaps in another thread and not this one. (add: arguments for theism of course are not arguments for the existence of Bible God.)

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

 

 

 

Bibler, if you do come back, I have a few questions pertaining to the above quotes.

 

1. Is the story of Jesus, Mary and Joseph literal?

2. If so, what person in Jesus' genealogy was the literal son of an allegorical father?

3. What criteria do you base your conclusion in #2 on?

 

Thanks.

 

?I just realized something Citsonga! If Adam and Eve are just an allegory. Then there was no real fruit of knowledge of good and evil to eat from! So we aren't cursed! Sin hasnt passed upon us cuz there was no transgression. And we don't need Jesus to stay out of Hell because that's probably just an allegory too! HELL YEAH! that sounds like a winner for everyone! ?????? Congratulations @Bibleryou just saved everyone from fear of Hell and damnation through your revelations. You are Awesome! Way more awesome than bible God! 

 

DB

[Jeff]

My demons feel happier now. ^

[Realist]

 

?I just realized something Citsonga! If Adam and Eve are just an allegory. Then there was no real fruit of knowledge of good and evil to eat from! So we aren't cursed! Sin hasnt passed upon us cuz there was no transgression. And we don't need Jesus to stay out of Hell because that's probably just an allegory too! HELL YEAH! that sounds like a winner for everyone! ?????? Congratulations @Bibleryou just saved everyone from fear of Hell and damnation through your revelations. You are Awesome! Way more awesome than bible God! 

 

DB

 

Nah .... all it means is that Bibler is not a TRUETM  christian! He is a false prophet!! 

[Jeff]

Know sin?

Know Jebus!

No sin?

No Jebus. 

 

No Adam and Eve Bibler?  Yep. Why even bother at that point.

[whitehorse]

 

Bring some more Christians with you, thank you.

[whitehorse]

 

My demons feel happier now. ^

I don't know dude, now you've confessed your allegiance with the evil one.

 

 

[ag_NO_stic]

A haiku for @Bibler:

 

You prattle and judge

Claiming to know of "God's Will"

Where is your proof, sir?

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

?I just realized something Citsonga! If Adam and Eve are just an allegory. Then there was no real fruit of knowledge of good and evil to eat from! So we aren't cursed! Sin hasnt passed upon us cuz there was no transgression. And we don't need Jesus to stay out of Hell because that's probably just an allegory too! HELL YEAH! that sounds like a winner for everyone! ?????? Congratulations @Bibleryou just saved everyone from fear of Hell and damnation through your revelations. You are Awesome! Way more awesome than bible God! 

 

DB

 

DB - this is precicely what I am getting at in my quoted post below from page 4, which Bibler has not replied to:

 

@Bibler I have two sets of questions in the quoted portion below. Please be so kind as to chew my hide off in answering them.

 

 

LogicalFallacy Said:

"Most of the bible is allegory - nothing more that stories told to explain existence, mixed with a bit of history, and many assertions.

 

Is Adam and Eve and their sin allegory?"

 

@Bibler replied:

"Yes."

 

Bibler, since there was no original sin then, per your answer please explain:

 

1) Why we need saving from the original sin if its allegory?

2) Why does Paul and Jesus, both refer to Adam AND Moses as real if they were allegory, bearing in mind that while Paul was but a fallible man, Jesus was God in flesh.

 

^"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

¹⁴ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

¹⁶ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

¹⁷ For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

 

If Genesis 1 is allegory the rest of the bible falls over.... but fear not, Dr William Lane Craig and cohorts are working around the clock to rationalize science with the bible so that the fact God refers to people as literal we can take it is allegory. It's not real, its not true, its all man made religion and you my friend are showing that up very well thus far.

 

 

 

 

 

As I would expect. Of course the next step is for our Christian friend to demonstrate how HE has the correct authority and revelation considering that MANY Christians simultaneously claim mutually exclusive revelations.

 

@Bibler  my father is the pastor of a small church. He (and the church) believes (without evidence of ANY sort) that the bible is literal (We are talking 6,000 YEC's here) and that he is the messenger of Revelations 10 who receives the final message for a small "chosen few" to go in the Rapture. This rapture is Coming Soon (TM) (And has been my whole life).

 

Please explain to me why I should listen to your revelations/assertions rather than my fathers:

1) Considering that neither of you provide anything other than a claim of personal experience with God backed up by nothing but words,

2) why I should trust you over my father.

 

Thanks

 

LF

 

[whitehorse]

 

A haiku for @Bibler:

 

You prattle and judge

Claiming to know of "God's Will"

Where is your proof, sir?

 

Here

 

(                    )

[ag_NO_stic]

 

Here

 

(                    )

 

Maybe if I have faith, I will be able to see it more clearly....

[whitehorse]

 

 

Maybe if I have faith, I will be able to see it more clearly....

Hang on I have, you've just hit on something.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Here

 

(                    )

 

Ahhh so your proof is transcendent, immaterial and beyond the observable and knowable cosmos?

 

Please explain to me the difference between the proof above and non existence in relation to us knowing?  

[whitehorse]

 

 

Ahhh so your proof is transcendent, immaterial and beyond the observable and knowable cosmos?

 

Please explain to me the difference between the proof above and non existence in relation to us knowing?  

I think I need a drink for this.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

I think I need a drink for this.

 

Don't we all. Hell, even Jesus turned water into wine to deal with all that shit.

[whitehorse]

 

 

Don't we all. Hell, even Jesus turned water into wine to deal with all that shit.

Yeah he even went off to remote places to get away from his followers. Makes you wonder.

[disillusioned]

 

Hi disillusioned, by the transcendental argument, you mean the Cornelius Van Til one, kept alive now by John Frame and Matt Slick and other Calvinist apologists? My best response to it so far is just to say it is stupid. TAGers are very slippery devils because, obviously, they refuse to argue from a shared set of assumptions. I think their shtick boils down to "your world view can't account for logic, but mine can, because God." It's like arguing with someone who denies that there are any starting points in an inquiry, or like arguing with a solipsist.

 

I have read that there are some Catholics who try to adapt TAG, but basically, TAG operates from Calvinist doctrine about the consequences of the Fall, which is inimical to Catholic doctrine. The RCs deny that human nature is so depraved that the natural man cannot properly know anything, which is the thesis of TAGers.

 

If you've written things on the classic cosmological arguments, I'd like to see them - and forgive me if you've already posted such on here and if I've forgotten.

 

When Dark Bishop stepped in to pick up the ball in the now no-longer stalled debate about God's existence, I had been tempted to volunteer to take the "God exists" position as an exercise. I was glad that Dark Bishop stepped in, though, because I wasn't sure that what I'd write would be helpful, or that it would be worth the time. But I would be interested in discussing classic args for theism, perhaps in another thread and not this one. (add: arguments for theism of course are not arguments for the existence of Bible God.)

 

The Van Til transcendental argument was the first one I was exposed to, and I agree with your assessment of it. I find it interesting mainly because it has prompted me to do some reflecting on the nature of logic, which is a topic I'm quite interested in. But I find your summary of the argument to be remarkably succinct. I feel somewhat similarly about the ontological argument, which I have summarised as "Imagine a God who exists. Therefore God exists."

 

I'd be happy to discuss classic arguments for theism elsewhere. Perhaps in the colosseum? I'll dig up some things I've written and start a thread in the next couple of days.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Damn.  For a guy who was here to stay and disappointed with how many christians before him had tucked tail, he sure played the 'I'll be back' card pretty quickly.

 

[Bibler]

Hi, I've been very busy these days and I've got loads of stuff left to do as well. I'm probably going to have some free time this weekend, so could I perhaps ask for somebody to sum up all questions that you'd like me to answer, in one post?

[sdelsolray]

 

Hi, I've been very busy these days and I've got loads of stuff left to do as well. I'm probably going to have some free time this weekend, so could I perhaps ask for somebody to sum up all questions that you'd like me to answer, in one post?

 

Translated:  Do some of my work for me because I have other things to do and I'm special.

[Jeff]

?‍♂️

[bornagainathiest]

 

Hi, I've been very busy these days and I've got loads of stuff left to do as well. I'm probably going to have some free time this weekend, so could I perhaps ask for somebody to sum up all questions that you'd like me to answer, in one post?

 

Yes, you could perhaps ask us that, Bibler.

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And here is a work by the German Romantic painter Caspar David Friedrich, (1774  - 1840) entitled Riesengebrige.

 

[Bibler]

@bornagainathiest, thank you for sharing this painting. Isn't God's creation just beautiful?

 

Also, it was certainly not my intention to come off as special, but I find it difficult to get the quoting right, especially when I have to switch pages, and that alone eats up a lot of my time. It would be really easier if I could quote just one post and get back to work on my post. Anyhow, I'll do it either way this weekend, so you better prepare your demons to be annihilated by the might of The Lord.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

@bornagainathiest, thank you for sharing this painting. Isn't God's creation just beautiful?

 

Also, it was certainly not my intention to come off as special, but I find it difficult to get the quoting right, especially when I have to switch pages, and that alone eats up a lot of my time. It would be really easier if I could quote just one post and get back to work on my post. Anyhow, I'll do it either way this weekend, so you better prepare your demons to be annihilated by the might of The Lord.