My 2 cents

[Guest end3]

 

Good man.  Would you like to have a conversation concerning the alleged exodus?  I will admit up front, I have no expertise on the subject.

We could.  Don't even know where to begin. 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

We could.  Don't even know where to begin. 

You could begin at your belief:

 

There was an exodus as told in the bible, yes or no?

[Bibler]

 

Hi, you're probably going to be a tad disappointed with this but I'm not a christian and I don't believe in gods. I usually really enjoy defending positions that I don't hold myself, but this thing here was a little bit different, I'd say I was kind of experimenting. I'm sorry. The story behind all of this is the following:

 

The day I posted this topic I was watching a movie and tbh I was pretty stoned. I got quite bored after the movie had ended and I got this wild idea in my head that if God was real and I tried defending christianity, maybe he would inspire me with some amazing divine arguments. It is now obvious that this didn't happen.

 

I have this to say to the people whose questions I did not answer - I had no damn idea how to even begin formulating a counter-argument that would make at least a little bit of sense to me.

 

There are however some unanswered questions for which I'd probably be able to form some kind of apologetics. Here they are:

 

I understand what you've said, but I wouldn't say that I've gotten your point, because you haven't actually made one yet.

 

You assert that the Bible is God's word. This is a claim to know God's will. How are you justified in claiming this knowledge? Furthermore, you've also stated in this thread that parts of the Bible are allegorical. Presumably some parts are not. So this means that you feel qualified to evaluate and interpret God's word. Again, this is tantamount to claiming to know God's will. By what authority do you make thus claim?

 

There is no way around this question. To be a Christian is not only to believe that God exists, but also to believe that you know what he wants you to do. And furthermore, to claim that you know what he wants me to do. This seems to me to be entirely untenable, and nothing that you've said has done anything to convince me otherwise.

 

So yes, if you're finally ready to begin addressing the question that I raised, then I'm all ears. If you want to start by explaining how you know that the Bible is the word of God, then sure, you can start there. But keep in mind that I've studied the Bible in some depth. I've memorized large portions of it. And I have carefully considered this question and all the usual answers many, many times. No one has ever answered this question satisfactorially. This is a big problem for Christianity. It's the primary reason why I'm not a Christian anymore. So answer the question, if you're up for it, but I would ask that you try to put some thought into your response.

 

Here I would have repeated what I said in my previous posts regarding this - that I know only what is revealed to me through the Bible. Then I would have continued by listing some supposed evidence for the Bible's divine inspiration that I myself don't believe in. Probably would have cut it and kept the conversation flowing.

I have no sensible answer for your question in bold.

 

Bibler, since there was no original sin then, per your answer please explain:

 

1) Why we need saving from the original sin if its allegory?

2) Why does Paul and Jesus, both refer to Adam AND Moses as real if they were allegory, bearing in mind that while Paul was but a fallible man, Jesus was God in flesh.

 

For 1 I would've said that original sin is still a thing, and the Bible describes it allegorically. That it's true and it's an analogy, but did not happen literally as described in the Bible.

For 2 I have no sensible answer.

 

Your rebuttal overlooks the claim that the all-knowing god is also all-powerful, so that, in addition to knowing who will return to him, he should also be capable of causing said return without your help and in spite of our best efforts to the contrary.  So, his omnipotence brings us back to you not being needed.

 

I think your choice of words reveals a lot more than you meant for it to.   "But what if I get somebody to return to the Living God..."  "He'd have known that I would come..."  "that I would help somebody..."  "And I believe that is no coincidence that I felt moved..."  It says a lot about you that you say a lot about you.  You are trying awfully hard to be needed, bless your heart; but if your god is all he's cracked up to be, then he really doesn't need you, or me, or any of us... except maybe florduh.

 

Here I would have proceeded to exploit your assumption that since God is all-powerful, that his ways of accomplishing things were somehow limited.

 

 

If you want to say God/Jesus is omniscinet and always knows, that's fine.  But when you say, "You will be known as...", this is not true in all cases, if you are referring to ex-Christians always being known to other living humans "as a person for whom Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, who did not accept it when provided with the chance to, who "fell away".  An ex-Christian can live his or her public life as a Christian and never disclose to anyone else, including family and friends, that he or she is in fact a non-believer.  When those ex-Christians die, all who knew them may think that they lived and died as Christian and have no idea otherwise.  A pastor giving the eulogy at the funeral may not even know this. 

 

You teared my argument to shreds with this. The only thing that came to my mind when I read your post was - oh shit, I fucked up big time here.

 

 

Also, to @nutrichuckles93, I kept on ignoring you because I really had no answer for your question that I thought would cut it.

 

Hope you have a great day

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

I was pretty stoned.

 

 

Well, getting stoned is biblical!

 

It will be interesting to see what you have to say on the board now that your experiment is over. You may want to change your user name, though, in order to avoid confusion.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Well, getting stoned is biblical!

 

It will be interesting to see what you have to say on the board now that your experiment is over. You may want to change your user name, though, in order to avoid confusion.

 

 

And that huge "Authentic Christian Believer" sign.  

[LogicalFallacy]

 

For 1 I would've said that original sin is still a thing, and the Bible describes it allegorically. That it's true and it's an analogy, but did not happen literally as described in the Bible.

For 2 I have no sensible answer.

 

Hope you have a great day

 

And I'd reply how do you have original sin as "still a thing" if it didn't actually happen? Why then are we judged for something that we did not do, don't know what it is, and did not commit ourselves?

 

With number 2 regarding Paul and Jesus referring to allegorical characters as real I'm not sure anyone has a sensible answer... but someone will have an apologetic that thy simply base on assertions.

 

You have a good day too.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

So I'm guessing my question was also unanswerable? And yeah now that ya dropped the act. Lose the authentic christian believer symbol. It's an eye sore. Lol.

 

DB 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

And that huge "Authentic Christian Believer" sign.  

 

 

So I'm guessing my question was also unanswerable? And yeah now that ya dropped the act. Lose the authentic christian believer symbol. It's an eye sore. Lol.

 

DB 

 

I think a moderator has to do that, so perhaps the next step after changing his user name should be contacting a moderator about the logo.

[Bibler]

 

 

And I'd reply how do you have original sin as "still a thing" if it didn't actually happen? Why then are we judged for something that we did not do, don't know what it is, and did not commit ourselves?

 

With number 2 regarding Paul and Jesus referring to allegorical characters as real I'm not sure anyone has a sensible answer... but someone will have an apologetic that thy simply base on assertions.

 

You have a good day too.

 

I would have probably made shit up like that original sin did happen, but it was rather a long process initiated by Satan, and not a single event like giving in to temptation from a fuQing magical talking snake.

 

Also, I don't know how to change my name, nor my logo. It doesn't bother me anyway, but if a moderator is willing to change them, I'd go for "babbler" for a display name. Somebody used this in this thread to refer to me and gave me a few solid chuckles

Also laughed hard at some reactions to my claims that I'm fighting Satan and that I'd annihilate your demons

 

@DarkBishop yeah, it's safe for you and everybody else who hasn't got an answer from me to assume that I have no idea what to say

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Also, I don't know how to change my name, nor my logo. It doesn't bother me anyway, but if a moderator is willing to change them, I'd go for "babbler" for a display name. Somebody used this in this thread to refer to me and gave me a few solid chuckles

 

To change your user name:

1. In the upper right-hand corner of your screen, click the drop-down beside your user name.

2. From the drop-down list, click Account Settings

3. In the list on the left, click Display Name

4. Enter your new name

5. Click Save

 

To change your avatar:

1. In the upper right-hand corner of your screen, click the drop-down beside your user name.

2. From the drop-down list, click Profile

3. Click the little file logo next to your avatar (it will say Profile Photo when you move your cursor over it)

4. Click on Choose Single File and then locate whatever you intend to use (or you could select No Photo if you don't want one)

5. Click Save

 

To request that the Authentic Christian Believer emblem be removed, contact one of the moderators here: http://www.ex-christian.net/staff/

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

I would have probably made shit up like that original sin did happen, but it was rather a long process initiated by Satan, and not a single event like giving in to temptation from a fuQing magical talking snake.

 

I'd prefer you to be a Christian - I'm having so much fun.

 

So your grounding for your long initiated process by Satan is? You get your authority for this assertion where?

 

"and not a single event like giving in to temptation from a fuQing magical talking snake." .... as opposed to a magical super demon created by a super sky fairy that the Christian simply asserts to exist then makes stuff up to explain anything that needs explaining....  

[Bibler]

 

To change your user name:

1. In the upper right-hand corner of your screen, click the drop-down beside your user name.

2. From the drop-down list, click Account Settings

3. In the list on the left, click Display Name

4. Enter your new name

5. Click Save

 

To change your avatar:

1. In the upper right-hand corner of your screen, click the drop-down beside your user name.

2. From the drop-down list, click Profile

3. Click the little file logo next to your avatar (it will say Profile Photo when you move your cursor over it)

4. Click on Choose Single File and then locate whatever you intend to use (or you could select No Photo if you don't want one)

5. Click Save

 

To request that the Authentic Christian Believer emblem be removed, contact one of the moderators here: http://www.ex-christian.net/staff/

 

 

Alright, thanks for the guide mate.

EDIT: It doesn't let me click on Display Name. I probably don't have the ability to change it because I'm a new member.

 

I'd prefer you to be a Christian - I'm having so much fun.

 

So your grounding for your long initiated process by Satan is? You get your authority for this assertion where?

 

"and not a single event like giving in to temptation from a fuQing magical talking snake." .... as opposed to a magical super demon created by a super sky fairy that the Christian simply asserts to exist then makes stuff up to explain anything that needs explaining....  

 

Yeah, but you must admit characterizing an entity that doesn’t exist doesn’t sound as ridiculous as characterizing and giving attributes to an existing creature that we know it can't possibly have.  

As per your question –  I’ll say my grounding is the Bible – we know that it says there is original sin, however we also know that snakes don’t talk, so we must assume that it’s an allegory rather than it being literal depiction of events. Then you’ll probably ask how can the Bible be the foundation for my argument, and I think we’ll finally get to the point I mentioned in reply #203 under disillusioned’s quote, where I’ll start listing evidence for its divine inspiration.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

Alright, thanks for the guide mate.

EDIT: It doesn't let me click on Display Name. I probably don't have the ability to change it because I'm a new member.

 

Ah, you're probably right. It probably requires a certain number of posts or a length of time. You could make the request to a moderator, though. Otherwise you'll just have to wait.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Alright, thanks for the guide mate.

EDIT: It doesn't let me click on Display Name. I probably don't have the ability to change it because I'm a new member.

 

Yeah, but you must admit characterizing an entity that doesn’t exist doesn’t sound as ridiculous as characterizing and giving attributes to an existing creature that we know it can't possibly have.  

As per your question –  I’ll say my grounding is the Bible – we know that it says there is original sin, however we also know that snakes don’t talk, so we must assume that it’s an allegory rather than it being literal depiction of events. Then you’ll probably ask how can the Bible be the foundation for my argument, and I think we’ll finally get to the point I mentioned in reply #203 under disillusioned’s quote, where I’ll start listing evidence for its divine inspiration.

 

Yes but you have a rather poignant problem - Jesus and Paul thought it was real. That's what formed the basis of original sin. "For by one man (Adam) did sin come into the world, and by one man (Jesus) was sin taken away".

 

IF your grounding was the bible you'd be saying original sin was the literal eating of fruit. By what authority do you say it's allegory? Common sense tells us the whole story is codswallop, but at which point in the bible does god say "Oh hey, Genesis, yeah its mostly made up... Exodus too. My bad, allegory stories to teach you folk something and all" It doesn't, right through to the last world in the Bible "Amen" it treats Adam, Eve, the Serpent and the Garden of eden as literal events that happened.

 

So I ask you again, what is the original sin? 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Well, getting stoned is biblical!

 

It will be interesting to see what you have to say on the board now that your experiment is over. You may want to change your user name, though, in order to avoid confusion.

 

 

ROFLMAO (I haven't typed that since highschool), @Citsonga, I have seen some funny shit on this thread, but you get the "I've laughed hardest so far at this post" award. I have not seen anything so far on this thread that made me laugh like that. Bwahahaha

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Hi, you're probably going to be a tad disappointed with this but I'm not a christian and I don't believe in gods. I usually really enjoy defending positions that I don't hold myself, but this thing here was a little bit different, I'd say I was kind of experimenting. I'm sorry. The story behind all of this is the following:

 

The day I posted this topic I was watching a movie and tbh I was pretty stoned. I got quite bored after the movie had ended and I got this wild idea in my head that if God was real and I tried defending christianity, maybe he would inspire me with some amazing divine arguments. It is now obvious that this didn't happen.

 

I have this to say to the people whose questions I did not answer - I had no damn idea how to even begin formulating a counter-argument that would make at least a little bit of sense to me.

 

There are however some unanswered questions for which I'd probably be able to form some kind of apologetics. Here they are:

 

 

Here I would have repeated what I said in my previous posts regarding this - that I know only what is revealed to me through the Bible. Then I would have continued by listing some supposed evidence for the Bible's divine inspiration that I myself don't believe in. Probably would have cut it and kept the conversation flowing.

I have no sensible answer for your question in bold.

 

 

For 1 I would've said that original sin is still a thing, and the Bible describes it allegorically. That it's true and it's an analogy, but did not happen literally as described in the Bible.

For 2 I have no sensible answer.

 

 

Here I would have proceeded to exploit your assumption that since God is all-powerful, that his ways of accomplishing things were somehow limited.

 

 

 

You teared my argument to shreds with this. The only thing that came to my mind when I read your post was - oh shit, I fucked up big time here.

 

 

Also, to @nutrichuckles93, I kept on ignoring you because I really had no answer for your question that I thought would cut it.

 

Hope you have a great day

 

Also, @Bibler....for the record, I don't believe you. Maybe other people on the site are giving you the benefit of the doubt with this whole thing, but I'm thinking the more likely course of events is that someone said something that you decided to research for a bit and now you don't know what to do except try to backtrack the dumbassery. Just saying, I don't buy it. But we can still be friends hahaha

[Guest end3]

 

 

Also, @Bibler....for the record, I don't believe you. Maybe other people on the site are giving you the benefit of the doubt with this whole thing, but I'm thinking the more likely course of events is that someone said something that you decided to research for a bit and now you don't know what to do except try to backtrack the dumbassery. Just saying, I don't buy it. But we can still be friends hahaha

Yeah, and I thought pretending was kind of against the rules here... would have to re-read.  Where's the mods when you need one...

 

Edit:  see "spoofer" in the forum guidelines...

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

Also, @Bibler....for the record, I don't believe you. Maybe other people on the site are giving you the benefit of the doubt with this whole thing, but I'm thinking the more likely course of events is that someone said something that you decided to research for a bit and now you don't know what to do except try to backtrack the dumbassery. Just saying, I don't buy it. But we can still be friends hahaha

 

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but yeah, I'm not fully convinced, either. We'll just have to see how things go from here on out, if he sticks around.

 

 

Yeah, and I thought pretending was kind of against the rules here... would have to re-read.  Where's the mods when you need one...

 

Edit:  see "spoofer" in the forum guidelines...

 

Good call. To make it easy for Bibler, here's a link: http://www.ex-christian.net/guidelines/

 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but yeah, I'm not fully convinced, either. We'll just have to see how things go from here on out, if he sticks around.

 

 

Good call. To make it easy for Bibler, here's a link: http://www.ex-christian.net/guidelines/

 

 

I'm comfortable with being wrong about this, there's really no way to prove it, but I wanted to be up front about not buying it. 

[disillusioned]

 

Yeah, and I thought pretending was kind of against the rules here... would have to re-read.  Where's the mods when you need one...

 

Edit:  see "spoofer" in the forum guidelines...

 

And it's also just not cool.

[Bibler]

Honestly, if I wasn't stoned and bored, I wouldn't have done that. What a dangerous combination.. Sorry for hurting your feelings, lads, I promise to repent.

 

Also, if we're going that route, can we have a definition of troll, just so we're on the same page? Because it was certainly not my intention to "troll" the board, I'd say I was pretty genuine in my attempts to defend christianity. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Because it was certainly not my intention to "troll" the board, I'd say I was pretty genuine in my attempts to defend christianity. 

 

How is it "genuine" to argue for a position that you don't agree with without any clarification that that's what you're doing?

 

[ag_NO_stic]

 

Honestly, if I wasn't stoned and bored, I wouldn't have done that. What a dangerous combination.. Sorry for hurting your feelings, lads, I promise to repent.

 

Also, if we're going that route, can we have a definition of troll, just so we're on the same page? Because it was certainly not my intention to "troll" the board, I'd say I was pretty genuine in my attempts to defend christianity. 

 

You also put a great deal of thought, while stoned, into your profile with worshiping "Yeshua" and not just "god".....throwing a "Ha-Mashiach" in there. Seems pretty involved.

[disillusioned]

 

Honestly, if I wasn't stoned and bored, I wouldn't have done that. What a dangerous combination.. Sorry for hurting your feelings, lads, I promise to repent.

 

Also, if we're going that route, can we have a definition of troll, just so we're on the same page? Because it was certainly not my intention to "troll" the board, I'd say I was pretty genuine in my attempts to defend christianity. 

 

Many people here are struggling to repair the damage that Christianity has done to their lives. You came in here pretending to be a member of a religion that has irreversibly affected the lives of many of us. The fact that you put a lot of effort into pretending to be a Christian makes it worse, not better. Would you go to a group of recovering addicts claiming to be a dealer and try to sell them drugs?

 

Your intentions don't matter. What you did was against the rules of the site, and was deeply disrespectful to those here who are trying to repair their lives.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

 

Many people here are struggling to repair the damage that Christianity has done to their lives. You came in here pretending to be a member of a religion that has irreversibly affected the lives of many of us. The fact that you put a lot of effort into pretending to be a Christian makes it worse, not better. Would you go to a group of recovering addicts claiming to be a dealer and try to sell them drugs?

 

Your intentions don't matter. What you did was against the rules of the site, and was deeply disrespectful to those here who are trying to repair their lives.

 

Amen to this.

 

Assuming, of course, that he's not just trying to cover his ass for seeing reason in what we're all saying. For all we know, he's testing the waters in an environment that will not judge him for exploring these beliefs with skepticism.  In his mind, it might make more sense to disrespect everyone by claiming to have been stoned and joking the whole time than to just say "You guys have given me things to think about."