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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
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    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • Weezer
      Hey!  When you get to thinking about sex, your imagination runs wild!  😁
    • Weezer
      I'm not seeing anything like a rogue Star fleet.  And they didn't just have sex and then bail out.  But you are getting the idea.  Using a little imagination, perhaps a relatively small group came from another planet for some reason, and stayed on?  A guy named Sitchin wrote several books about this.  He claimed to be able to "read" or interpret cuneiform writings, but he doesn't have a lot of credibiity.  He seems to have a vivid imagination and came up with some stuff that does not add up.     But what if some aliens more advanced that earthlings DID come here and somehow "mixed" with early forms of earthlings?  Somehow boosting their evolution, and "creating" "humans"??   Thus, eventually the sons of gods marrying the daughters of men contained in Sumerian writings and the bible.  And the mentioning of heavenly chariots in the bible.  Possible??  Perhaps!!   Keep in mind this did not happen in just a few years.  It was more like centuries, or even thousands of years.  And these aliens supposedly lived much longer than earthlings.  Maybe some of the aliens eventually left earth??  Maybe some stayed and mixed in with with we earthlings??  There are endless possibliities.  If anyone is interested I can list a few authors who have written about these possibilities.  I have found it very interesting, being an avid Star Trek fan.  
    • moxieflux66
      Do you mean introduced to humans?  Sounds to me like the Sumerians, if they were not from around here, so to speak, were trying to make excuses for mating with an interplanetary (maybe experimental?) species. Maybe Star Fleet Command had them in hot water for that. Maybe they were reprimanded and called home from their mission. OOps! Maybe even court martialed!  I could see it......🤔
    • Weezer
      Yes. 😁  Hey, writing (cuneiform) had just been "invented" (at least that's what historians say), so like with any new toy, maybe they started playing with it and writing everything down??
    • moxieflux66
      "They" as in 'the Sumerians'?    So are you saying that there's a star fleet of these guys traversing the Universe, and like Captain Kirk have sex with aliens? And create new beings on other planets and then bail? I don't mean to be disrespectful and all but is this something documented in the bible as when the gods liked what they saw in the female slaves they created and decided to mate with them? And THEN began the chain of events that resulted in our advancement and the origins of breaking away from our 'divine' creators?    If our true origins lie with extraterrestrials, more and more this sounds like an experiment gone wrong. Amirite here anyone?  Is this why I have deep seated abandonment issues? 🤔
    • Weezer
      That would help, but it appears the "gods" brought big influence.  The big question is, where did they come up with the ideas for all the improvements?  This is controversial and some laugh at the idea, but some believe the gods were advanced extraterrestials.  And that would tie in with the biblical mention of divine chariots in Ezekiel.  And I believe other ancient writings mention what could be interpteted as flying machines. There evidently was a jump in technology in that part of the world (including Egypt) during that time. 
    • Weezer
      They seemed to be obsessed with record keeping.  I think most of what hey found was records of business deals.  Inventories, etc.
    • Casualfanboy16
      Found this super fun baking video about making possessed cakes out of demons! Looks like a devilishly delicious dessert to try out! 😋😈    
    • moxieflux66
      Is that because of the god/human sexual relationships that developed? 
    • moxieflux66
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    • Ushiromiya_Battler

      Ushiromiya_Battler

      Here because I want to see what more is out there. 
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
      Here's to a great 2024!! 🥳🍻🎊🎉
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