Offending Christians

[Kirangel]

come from a very liberal town and in my experiences here most Christians I know do not even go to church regularly. Yes I've always known that fundies were out there, but I never realized how many. They are dying breed here. The ones I know, even the ones I've met on-line do not fit the categories that many of you describe.

 

Lucky you. Could it be then that your views could be described as quite provincial and that they don't reflect the reality that exists on a larger scale across the US?

 

 

I don't know how much more liberal one can get then the godless Northeast New England. There are fundys everywhere even in liberal cities. Either Kir doesn't discuss religion and has no idea about the degree of fundys around her, or willingly turns a blind eye to it. Either way, I'm willing to bet she has fundy churches in her town/city.

 

 

That's a possibility. It's not like I go around discussing religion with everyone I see, it's family...sometimes friends and whoever I talk to on-line. The major Christian group I'm in right now cannot stand fundies. Some of the other ones aren't as bad, in the catholic group all the ones I know of do not reject evolution and do not believe in a literal 6 day creation. Maybe I've just been lucky. But I've tried to understand where you guys are coming from, realize that I have met Christians who have spent a great deal of time looking into their religion, and I know more of them then not who do not believe in shoving their beliefs down other peoples throats. The only problem I have with the ones I've met is that even though they don't actively try to spread the word they will do it indirectly by becoming one issue voters. Other then that, they keep to themselves, and once and a while question me.

[Japedo]

That's a possibility. It's not like I go around discussing religion with everyone I see, it's family...sometimes friends and whoever I talk to on-line. The major Christian group I'm in right now cannot stand fundies. Some of the other ones aren't as bad, in the catholic group all the ones I know of do not reject evolution and do not believe in a literal 6 day creation.

 

Out of curiosity what major Christian group are you affiliated with? Liberal, universal...?

[Kirangel]

When part of their beliefs is the command to go out and convert others to their beliefs, you support them being offensive to others...

 

That's the double standard, the one you asked about... by supporting Christians in being offensive, yet taking us to task for talking about doing the same, you show a double standard. Although, this one might be one you didn't even know you had...

 

No I don't, where did you get that idea from? I think it's repulsive when they do that.

 

 

It doesn't have to be extreme to cause emotional trauma!

What are the core beliefs of Christianity? That all Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for eternity...

 

Offensive? Sure is! Something that should be supported and allowed to be spread about, making people feels like they're worthless shits? Hell no!

Yet you support that... you believe that it's fine for people to spread that belief around, offending people left, right and center.

 

Core beliefs is that everyone is a sinner and must repent.

 

I support their right to their own beliefs, and no I don't think it's fine for them going around offending people.

 

 

Amazing... you realize that Christianity is bollocks. But you didn't notice just what harm the core beliefs do... This is the problem. You apologize for the beliefs, trying to blame it on the people instead.

 

You were right, in a way... you're not a Christian Apologizer... you are a Christianity Apologizer!

 

The core beliefs has helped people as well as harmed, there's always two sides. And yes, I blame cruelty on the people and not the institutions that they have created. Do you really think the world would be a much more peaceful place without religion? Humans would replace it with something else, they would find another way to manipulate and harm others.

 

I cannot attempt to phase it out of existence as long as their still are good people who follow it, or people who rely on it to live.

 

 

Do you know that by supporting the 'less' offensive parts of Christianity, you are legitamizing the more offensive parts? Did you know that what you support allows things like the extreme views such as those held by WBC members who go around emotionally terrorizing others, marching outside of the funerals of grieving families saying their child is going to go to hell, and what the Pastor did to Garnet?

 

Horrifying, isn't it? To discover that the very thing you say you're against, that is deplorable... is the very thing you're helping to continue...

 

Do you realize that you are doing the very same thing that the Christians do to you? You may be on the opposite side but what right do you have to force your beliefs on them? You want it gone because it can hurt others? Most things in this world is capable of having a negative impact on others.

 

By supporting their right to believe in what they want doesn't make it so that I support every aspect of what they do. I don't agree with getting rid of the whole because some have gone bad or are offensive to you. Much of the world is offensive to me and getting rid of the whole isn't a solution.

[Kirangel]

That's a possibility. It's not like I go around discussing religion with everyone I see, it's family...sometimes friends and whoever I talk to on-line. The major Christian group I'm in right now cannot stand fundies. Some of the other ones aren't as bad, in the catholic group all the ones I know of do not reject evolution and do not believe in a literal 6 day creation.

 

Out of curiosity what major Christian group are you affiliated with? Liberal, universal...?

 

The ones I've talked to are different types. There's a couple Catholics, I think most are non-denominational, one might be Coptic.

[Lycorth]

Horrifying, isn't it? To discover that the very thing you say you're against, that is deplorable... is the very thing you're helping to continue...

 

Do you realize that you are doing the very same thing that the Christians do to you? You may be on the opposite side but what right do you have to force your beliefs on them? You want it gone because it can hurt others? Most things in this world is capable of having a negative impact on others.

 

Damn, you just don't get it, do you?

 

Listen, no one here is or ever has talked about forcing any Xian out of their religion. Perhaps you've been around Xians for too long and still think as they do, ie, that to oppose something means you wish to force others to change.

 

That's Xian behavior - anti-xian behavior must necessarily advocate the opposite.

 

Putting words in people's mouths is a good way to continue to get your ass handed to you.

 

And Nazism had a very positive impact on ethnic Germans during the war. But when they went too far, they had to be put in their place. Same goes with people or institutions who would use Xianity to cause harm to others, terrify others, or extend power over others.

 

And as much as you don't want to hear it, that includes virtually all extant Xian sects. Any religious group that promotes the concept of eternal torment, as well as a variety of inhuman prejudices (as an example, anti-homosexual hatred) needs to be combatted. Naturally, it's a war of propaganda and information now, as these sects pose no physical threat anymore - again, thanks to people opposing Xianity, not rolling over and tolerating it.

 

But if sects were found that were actually physically torturing and killing people for not adhereing to their doctrine, yes, I'd support the full use of force against them, just like was done during WWII - and should've been done more during the conversion of Europe. Sadly, not enough people took a stand then, but you see my point, I think.

 

And how does anti-xian criticism keep Xianity going? It's the one thing that has whittled away its power in the West. Damn.

 

If you want to be understood, then please make every effort to understand. Don't come on here and point fingers at people who do not deserve to be accused. C-T never advocated that all Xians should be forced out of their religion, and to the best of my knowledge, no one here has, either.

 

[crazy-tiger]

When part of their beliefs is the command to go out and convert others to their beliefs, you support them being offensive to others...

 

That's the double standard, the one you asked about... by supporting Christians in being offensive, yet taking us to task for talking about doing the same, you show a double standard. Although, this one might be one you didn't even know you had...

 

No I don't, where did you get that idea from? I think it's repulsive when they do that.

Funny... since you support their right to their beliefs, you are supporting their 'right' to be offensive pricks...

It doesn't have to be extreme to cause emotional trauma!

What are the core beliefs of Christianity? That all Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for eternity...

 

Offensive? Sure is! Something that should be supported and allowed to be spread about, making people feels like they're worthless shits? Hell no!

Yet you support that... you believe that it's fine for people to spread that belief around, offending people left, right and center.

 

Core beliefs is that everyone is a sinner and must repent.

 

I support their right to their own beliefs, and no I don't think it's fine for them going around offending people.

Good grief... you really don't understand, do you?

 

I'll spell it out for you... Their belief is that EVERYONE is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity (AKA Sinner, since it sounds nicer that way but means the same damned thing) along with the command to go spread that news to everyone.

 

 

If someone came up to you and said "You're an evil, worthless fuck-up who deserves to be tortured for all eternity" you'd be offended... yet you support their 'right' to do that. Once you cut away the chaff, once you look at the very base of it, you spot the problem. By supporting their right to an offensive belief, you are supporting their right to be offensive.

Amazing... you realize that Christianity is bollocks. But you didn't notice just what harm the core beliefs do... This is the problem. You apologize for the beliefs, trying to blame it on the people instead.

 

You were right, in a way... you're not a Christian Apologizer... you are a Christianity Apologizer!

The core beliefs has helped people as well as harmed, there's always two sides. And yes, I blame cruelty on the people and not the institutions that they have created. Do you really think the world would be a much more peaceful place without religion? Humans would replace it with something else, they would find another way to manipulate and harm others.

 

I cannot attempt to phase it out of existence as long as their still are good people who follow it, or people who rely on it to live.

 

Core belief... Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity.

 

You want to come up with some examples of just how that has helped people?

Do you know that by supporting the 'less' offensive parts of Christianity, you are legitamizing the more offensive parts? Did you know that what you support allows things like the extreme views such as those held by WBC members who go around emotionally terrorizing others, marching outside of the funerals of grieving families saying their child is going to go to hell, and what the Pastor did to Garnet?

 

Horrifying, isn't it? To discover that the very thing you say you're against, that is deplorable... is the very thing you're helping to continue...

Do you realize that you are doing the very same thing that the Christians do to you? You may be on the opposite side but what right do you have to force your beliefs on them? You want it gone because it can hurt others? Most things in this world is capable of having a negative impact on others.

 

By supporting their right to believe in what they want doesn't make it so that I support every aspect of what they do. I don't agree with getting rid of the whole because some have gone bad or are offensive to you. Much of the world is offensive to me and getting rid of the whole isn't a solution.

Now, this is fun... but since I'm not trying to force my beliefs on others, you're barking up the wrong fucking tree.

 

I view religion as a barrel of apples... you need to get rid of the rotten ones before they taint the rest. Since Christianity and it's beliefs are rotten at the core, out it goes. Not just the ones that show just how rotten they are, but also the ones that have a nice pretty outside... just because it looks good on the outside doesn't mean the rot at the core is suddenly gone.

[Kirangel]

Funny... since you support their right to their beliefs, you are supporting their 'right' to be offensive pricks...

 

Belief does not equal action. You're logic in this case is non-existant.

 

Their belief is that EVERYONE is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity

 

No it's not, that's just your spin on it.

 

 

 

If someone came up to you and said "You're an evil, worthless fuck-up who deserves to be tortured for all eternity" you'd be offended... yet you support their 'right' to do that. Once you cut away the chaff, once you look at the very base of it, you spot the problem. By supporting their right to an offensive belief, you are supporting their right to be offensive.

 

Depends, but probably not. People who say that to me are not worth my time or my concern. No I do not support their right be verbally abusive, but I do support their right to believe that.

 

Core belief... Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity.

 

You want to come up with some examples of just how that has helped people?

 

It saved my mother. People who go through very difficult times need some way to cope with it, religion can serve as that coping method and when it helps to lesson suffering in their lives then I am all for it.

 

 

Now, this is fun... but since I'm not trying to force my beliefs on others, you're barking up the wrong fucking tree.

 

I view religion as a barrel of apples... you need to get rid of the rotten ones before they taint the rest. Since Christianity and it's beliefs are rotten at the core, out it goes. Not just the ones that show just how rotten they are, but also the ones that have a nice pretty outside... just because it looks good on the outside doesn't mean the rot at the core is suddenly gone.

 

“out it goes” To do that you would have to influence them in their beliefs in the same way that they try to influence you with yours.

[Kirangel]

Damn, you just don't get it, do you?

 

Listen, no one here is or ever has talked about forcing any Xian out of their religion. Perhaps you've been around Xians for too long and still think as they do, ie, that to oppose something means you wish to force others to change.

 

That's Xian behavior - anti-xian behavior must necessarily advocate the opposite.

 

Putting words in people's mouths is a good way to continue to get your ass handed to you

 

My apologies then because that's the impression I got that you want to press your beliefs onto them so that they would no longer believe in their sky God (by force I meant influence...bad word choice). I must have misconstrued what you said. When will you admit that maybe just possibly, you might have done the same with me? Because I keep trying to explain things when you all twist around what I say but everyone keeps dragging it out and the picture you paint of me ends up being completely different.

 

If that is the case, that you have no desire to influence their beliefs and stop them from being Christians then I don't see the problem.

[Grandpa Harley]

Core belief... Humanity is an evil, worthless fuck-up that deserves to be tortured for all eternity.

 

You want to come up with some examples of just how that has helped people?

 

It saved my mother. People who go through very difficult times need some way to cope with it, religion can serve as that coping method and when it helps to lesson suffering in their lives then I am all for it.

 

 

 

 

1) It is a Core belief. The concept of the Fall, the brokenness and essential venality of man are all core ideas to every sect from the Roman Church to Westboro Baptist.

 

2) How did the idea that we're worthless dreck who deserves eternal damnation help your mother cope?

[Kirangel]

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

 

Religion can offer hope to those who need it. It did with my mother. Roman Catholics aren't taught that humans are evil, nor are they taught that people deserve eternal damnation. They are taught that humans sin and need to repent. They make up the largest group of Christians in the world, therefore their views should not be ignored. I can't claim to know what the other denominations teach because I was never one of them, but the Christians I meet on-line have said things like, 'God is incapable of creating evil,' in that case humans were inherently good but corrupted...meaning not evil, just sinners who need to repent.

[Grandpa Harley]

Arrant nonsense...

[Dhampir]

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

Premarital sex? Working on Sunday? Evil?

[Unknowing1]

Roman Catholics aren't taught that humans are evil, nor are they taught that people deserve eternal damnation. They are taught that humans sin and need to repent.

 

Ah, that brings back memories, the ol get out of jail free card.

 

I must have been asleep in catechism class. I could swear those nuns spoke to us of eternal damnation if we didn't be good little boys and girls and if not be good at least confess our sins. I certainly remember being told by the the nuns we had to go to confession so that we wouldn't go to Hell.

 

Then of course we have the issue of baptism, had to be baptised shortly after birth. Not sure what sins a child would commit but there was that need to be baptised so that if death occured they wouldn't end up in Hell, at least that's what the nuns told us.

[Grandpa Harley]

Indeed

[Vigile]

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

 

Do you live in a bubble? It's as if you have no concept of what xianity is at even the most basic levels. Your ignorance wouldn't be quite so shocking compared against a random control group, but you are here amongst those who studied and practiced this belief for the better part of our lives. As has been pointed out, the basic root of all major forms of xianity (including RC) is that sin is tantamount to evil and that as sinners we are worthy only of punishment. It is through the blood of christ that god can even tollerate our pitiful selves. This is xianity 101.

[Kirangel]

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

 

Do you live in a bubble? It's as if you have no concept of what xianity is at even the most basic levels. Your ignorance wouldn't be quite so shocking compared against a random control group, but you are here amongst those who studied and practiced this belief for the better part of our lives. As has been pointed out, the basic root of all major forms of xianity (including RC) is that sin is tantamount to evil and that as sinners we are worthy only of punishment. It is through the blood of christ that god can even tollerate our pitiful selves. This is xianity 101.

 

You're twisting things around I never said that sin is not tantamount to evil. What I was challenging is the statement made claiming that Humanity is evil. Your response has little if anything to do with what my response was to.

[Kirangel]

Roman Catholics aren't taught that humans are evil, nor are they taught that people deserve eternal damnation. They are taught that humans sin and need to repent.

 

Ah, that brings back memories, the ol get out of jail free card.

 

I must have been asleep in catechism class. I could swear those nuns spoke to us of eternal damnation if we didn't be good little boys and girls and if not be good at least confess our sins. I certainly remember being told by the the nuns we had to go to confession so that we wouldn't go to Hell.

 

Then of course we have the issue of baptism, had to be baptised shortly after birth. Not sure what sins a child would commit but there was that need to be baptised so that if death occured they wouldn't end up in Hell, at least that's what the nuns told us.

 

 

Yeah those get out of jail free cards were great, I would usually sell them back for $50.

[Vigile]

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

 

Do you live in a bubble? It's as if you have no concept of what xianity is at even the most basic levels. Your ignorance wouldn't be quite so shocking compared against a random control group, but you are here amongst those who studied and practiced this belief for the better part of our lives. As has been pointed out, the basic root of all major forms of xianity (including RC) is that sin is tantamount to evil and that as sinners we are worthy only of punishment. It is through the blood of christ that god can even tollerate our pitiful selves. This is xianity 101.

 

You're twisting things around I never said that sin is not tantamount to evil. What I was challenging is the statement made claiming that Humanity is evil. Your response has little if anything to do with what my response was to.

 

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. None are righteous, not one. These are the basics of the xian faith. I don't know a mainstream denomination that doesn't use these as its foundation. No one is twisting your words. If we are misunderstanding you, then it means you are not being very clear.

[Japedo]

Religion can offer hope to those who need it. It did with my mother. Roman Catholics aren't taught that humans are evil, nor are they taught that people deserve eternal damnation. They are taught that humans sin and need to repent. They make up the largest group of Christians in the world, therefore their views should not be ignored. I can't claim to know what the other denominations teach because I was never one of them, but the Christians I meet on-line have said things like, 'God is incapable of creating evil,' in that case humans were inherently good but corrupted...meaning not evil, just sinners who need to repent.

 

 

Love me or Die is not hope. Love me or Burn is not hope either. Love me and I'll take care of you, protect you and love you, deny my existence and you can choose to burn for all eternity, be thrown out like the worthless trash you are is not hope no matter how you try to argue the point. If a gunman holds a gun to your head and say's give me all your money or die will you be freely be giving that money? "loving" a cruel god is the same concept.

 

The very concept of the dogma is an abusive one and one must surrender any thoughts of questioning, seeking and individuality to be accepted and 'loved'. Religion is manipulation. Sure they help, but you pay dearly for it. You'll always be under the thumb of walking the tightrope of perfection. People who receive aid and assistance from cults feel under obligation to defend and support them blindly, and also surrender their self-worth as a result. They will always feel obligated what's said to them is the truth. (sort of how you bindly defend Catholicism here on Ex-C)

 

My mother too was 'helped'. The church in turn helped themselves to her life savings, her measly 10% just wasn't good enough. They broke her, saddest thing is she doesn't see it that way. Please don't attempt to shovel bullshit at us and tell us it's Crème Brulee.

 

 

Catholicism is the base of all Christianity, they most certainly believe man needs saving from themselves. The hold the concept of heaven and hell, and what ever the pope decrees as truth. They in fact are needed because of mans sin and evilness. Didja watch that wife swap episode with demons and slikicks? That believe it or not was a catholic. If you don't know what I'm talking about I'll post a link for you to witness her hysterical antics. It is fear of god and church that causes people to react the way she did.

[Kirangel]

Japedo, you would have to be blind to not realize the positive aspects of hope that's found in religions, it's a place where people can turn to to escape the miserable world that we live in. Hope of a more promising future of something better to come...that's what makes it appealling to people. If a persons world is a living hell and the hope brought to that person by a religion is the only thing helping them to get by then great, good for them I'm all for it.

 

That my friend, is the kind of hope that I was talking about.

 

 

Yes christianity has had a negative impact on people and caused a great deal of grief for many...but it has helped as well not just on small individual levels but on a larger scale like with their charity work.

 

 

The God warrior, trading spouses on youtube? Yeah, she lost it.

[Kirangel]

Humans sinning is not equivalent to humans being evil. What you are doing is taking a key tenet of Christianity and spinning it to suit your own paradigm.

 

Do you live in a bubble? It's as if you have no concept of what xianity is at even the most basic levels. Your ignorance wouldn't be quite so shocking compared against a random control group, but you are here amongst those who studied and practiced this belief for the better part of our lives. As has been pointed out, the basic root of all major forms of xianity (including RC) is that sin is tantamount to evil and that as sinners we are worthy only of punishment. It is through the blood of christ that god can even tollerate our pitiful selves. This is xianity 101.

 

You're twisting things around I never said that sin is not tantamount to evil. What I was challenging is the statement made claiming that Humanity is evil. Your response has little if anything to do with what my response was to.

 

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. None are righteous, not one. These are the basics of the xian faith. I don't know a mainstream denomination that doesn't use these as its foundation. No one is twisting your words. If we are misunderstanding you, then it means you are not being very clear.

 

I never claimed otherwise to the two statements you made above so yes you must have misunderstood me if you thought that I was denying them as christian concepts. What I was questioning was whether or not humans are evil according to christians. There is a difference between what you were describing and what I was challenging.

[Lycorth]

My apologies then because that's the impression I got that you want to press your beliefs onto them so that they would no longer believe in their sky God (by force I meant influence...bad word choice). I must have misconstrued what you said. When will you admit that maybe just possibly, you might have done the same with me? Because I keep trying to explain things when you all twist around what I say but everyone keeps dragging it out and the picture you paint of me ends up being completely different.

 

If that is the case, that you have no desire to influence their beliefs and stop them from being Christians then I don't see the problem.

 

I have every desire to influence the beliefs of Xians, just not force my views on them. World of difference, there, and one definitely does not equate to the other.

 

And why would it be wrong to try and influence them to drop their religion? It's a harmful, ignorant religion that places a god and its religion before the individual and encourages a wide variety of ethically unjustifiable hatreds, such as anti-homosexual hatred or hatred for those who follow different religions.

 

Kirangel, Xianity is built on the idea that human beings are all wickedly evil and deserving only of eternal punishment. This is not us twisting Xian concepts of "sin" and "hell" but merely properly understanding them as they have been traditionally taught for over two thousand years.

 

The fact that you have a very liberalized and untraditional take on Xianity does not alter the fact that traditional Xian teaching is precisely as everyone else here has summed up. Like Vigile said, it's right from the Babble - all have sinned and fallen short - what about that don't you understand?

 

Any religion that promotes such a sickening concept, along with everything else I've noted, deserves only a speedy extermination via mass enlightenment of humanity.

 

So, a nontraditional, twisted form of Xianity was helpful to a loved one of yours. Wonderful - seriously. But you are being terribly selfish and myopic if you think that justifies Xianity. Lots of people lost mothers, fathers, siblings, children, and friends when Xianity was forced on Europe during the early Middle Ages. If the benefits your mother received from Xianity justifiy it, then the overwhelming number of death that can be directly attributed to fervent, traditional practice of this religion justifies our complete opposition to it.

 

National Socialism did lots of good things for Germany in the 1930s, you know. I have to keep dragging out that semi-strawman, because it does clarify my point. Just because something can do some little good for a few people, it doesn't make it objectively good in and of itself, and certainly doesn't excuse the horrors it is know to have caused to others. And truth be told, the ills Xianity has caused throughout the centuries far outweigh the so-called "benefits" it's given. Xian charities whine and collect money for the poor, but the poor are ever growing in numbers, so their charitable activity, however well-meant, is utterly meaningless - and their insidious teachings about humanity's inherent wickedness and encouragement of unjustifiable hatreds is still there, plain as day.

 

Your own spin on Xianity doesn't change what Xianity really is.

[Japedo]

Japedo, you would have to be blind to not realize the promise of hope that's found in religions, it's a place where people can turn to to escape the miserable world that we live in. Hope of a more promising future of something better to come...that's what makes it appealling to people. If a persons world is a living hell and the hope brought to that person by a religion is the only thing helping them to get by then great, good for them I'm all for it.

 

That my friend, is the kind of hope that I was talking about.

 

 

Kir,

 

You paint religion as some savior from the dark cold cruel world. It's easy to Cherry pick. How about giving an education to make peoples life's better instead of a hope and a useless prayer? How about assisting them in life instead of using emotional coercion? Life of course would be awesome if we didn't have to deal with any truth, most people believe in fantasy land because the truth of life is to harsh to face. I admitted that churches 'help', but they don't do so freely. They always expect things in return, that's the part you're negating. How is it hope to someone who has an emotional gun to the head? This causes physiological trauma and pain regardless if the victim sees it or not.

 

Such as: Someone I love isn't a believer, they are going to burn forever.

 

Or: I walked off the narrow path, I'm not worthy of forgiveness. I'll never be good enough for gawds love.

 

Or how about, What's wrong with me, why do I naturally desire things god 'hates'?

 

Good people are made to feel like lowlife sinners over nothing. If not for guilt and feelings of unworthiness churches would be damn near empty. It is the nature of the church to keep people under the thumb of oppression and they do it under the guise of being 'helpful. No church will ever admit to emotional blackmail tactics or abuse. It's what it is though. If God was loving, there would be ZERO consequences for not loving him. Someone that say's love me or I'll kill you has fucked up emotional problems and isn't anyone that should be worshiped even if they handed a starving man a scrap of bread.

 

------

 

Yeah, the Gawd warrior was the one I was talking about. :-)

[Vigile]

I never claimed otherwise to the two statements you made above so yes you must have misunderstood me if you thought that I was denying them as christian concepts. What I was questioning was whether or not humans are evil according to christians. There is a difference between what you were describing and what I was challenging.

 

Then I didn't misunderstand you. The answer is yes, according to xians, humans are born evil and are all deserving of punishment. Only by the blood of Jesus can a xian be acceptable to god. Without this covering, evil humans cannot be in god's midst. This is the raw basics of their belief; even the RCs.

 

The result of this is to make humans feel utterly unworthy BTW. Every xian I have ever met sadly mumbles to themselves "there but for the grace of god go I." It's not a very uplifting belief to maintain. It's a pretty high price to pay for all the feelings of belonging and acceptance that their group membership offers them.

[Skankboy]

Japedo, you would have to be blind to not realize the positive aspects of hope that's found in religions, it's a place where people can turn to to escape the miserable world that we live in. Hope of a more promising future of something better to come...that's what makes it appealling to people. If a persons world is a living hell and the hope brought to that person by a religion is the only thing helping them to get by then great, good for them I'm all for it.

 

False hope is as harmful as no hope at all. Delusions are not healthy. What you are describing here is the same kind of escapism found in most drug addicts.

 

A good philosophy should give you the tools to deal with reality, not try to change the nature of reality to make it more palatable.

 

Personally, I don't teach unless asked. But if I'm asked, hells yes I will do all in my power to show them what I see as the fallacies of their position.

 

IMOHO,