Theological Kryptonite

[Deva]

I don't give a shit about Kat. Or her preaching.

 

 

LOL Congratulations Mythra, you win the prize for most logical thinker among us -- see Kat over in the Arena. I think she you.

[Mythra]

Lady Kat named you (in the pm) as the one person who discusses things logically most of the time.

 

Moi?? Logical??

 

Hah.

 

Kat and I had a 1 on 1 a while back discussing the historicity of the gospels (or lack thereof). I put on my scholarly hat and conducted myself in an utterly impeccable fashion.

 

So unlike me.

 

I much prefer being stupid and poking fun.

 

p.s. don't let Kat fool you. In spite of the fact that she's totally brainwashed into submission, she's no dummy.

[Grandpa Harley]

"p.s. don't let Kat fool you. In spite of the fact that she's totally brainwashed into submission, she's no dummy."

 

I'd cordially suggest that the susceptibility to being brainwashed the effect is that she's a retard.

[R. S. Martin]

I much prefer being stupid and poking fun.

 

p.s. don't let Kat fool you. In spite of the fact that she's totally brainwashed into submission, she's no dummy.

 

Mythra, I think there is more than one kind of "wise" or "dummy."

 

One kind of wise is being consistent and genuine. You are that. Kat is not.

 

She brags about how logical she is. Yet for a person who claims to want to understand why people deconvert, she is being totally illogical. Our testimonies are on this site by the hundred. Does she read them? No. She starts provokative discussions to "prove" why we deconverted, but does she take our word for it? Of course not! She provokes the craziest responses of self-defense, then puts her own spin on it, and then publishes the santized--no-no that would be muddied--version as Truth.

 

The muddied version fits nice and tidy with what Christians already believe about us. It fits the paradigm.

 

So crazy Chib has chickened out, has he? Just as well. He contaminates every good discussion. Or maybe he posted those things before Skip put him on probation.

[Mythra]

[she brags about how logical she is. Yet for a person who claims to want to understand why people deconvert, she is being totally illogical. Our testimonies are on this site by the hundred.

 

That's just the religious mindset that makes a person stupid like that.

 

It looks like Kat and Antlerman are going to debate in the Arena.

 

You'll see what I'm talking about.

[L.B.]

Some funDICK said:

 

"I'm not guilt tripping you, I'm coming to you as a concerned friend trying to keep you from making a mistake that you can't correct, and trying to help you realize that the consequences are real."

 

Not guilt-tripping... with sob-stories about kids leaving home and living in squalor and breaking mommy's heart?

 

Concerned friend... who repeatedly tells us shit that we already heard and still don't believe BECAUSE we know better?

 

Mistake we can't correct... a mistake that GAWD won't give us the 'grace' to correct? Nice guy, that GAWD asshole. I thought we were all 'sinners' in need of 'grace'. Why is it that some of us will be allowed to make a mistake we can't correct? If your babble is true, we made the mistake of being BORN in 'sin', which thing we cannot correct anyway. Ergo, your GAWD is the one who needs to do the correcting. If you reply that he did so by sending Jayzus to die, then I say all of us are then automatically 'saved'. If you say that GAWD only saves those who make a CHOICE to accept Jayzus, then I reply that GAWD is a fucking sadistic prick, because if he wants to wait for me to choose, he must then get his jollies watching those who refuse to choose SUFFER. Otherwise he would save everyone WITHOUT letting them choose. GAWD 'made' man; GAWD let man fall into a permanent sinful state, even thought he knew it would happen before man was made. GAWD let thousands of years pass and millions of people die without knowing the 'truth' about this 'fall of man' and then sent Jayzus to die for ONLY those who EITHER were 'elect' or those who CHOOSE to be saved from something GAWD could have prevented. WHEW... that was a lot. Still a steaming pile of shit, though, ain't it?

 

The consequences are real... So you're here to tell us that GAWD made us, let us get fucked-up, killed his own son so that people cpuld be saved, and then STILL let 'salvation' be an optional choice OR a pre-determined fate (depending on your reading of the babble). Then you try to spook us with telling us that the consequences (i.e., hell) are real. No, actually... they're not. Neither is the fable about the origins of man and creation and sin and all that shit called the babble. The babble was written by people who believed that gods write important shit on big stone tablets, because that's what the fuck Bronze-age nomadic tribesmen do; they write shit on stone. More of your babble was written by people who were impressed by iron chariots that could not be destroyed by tribal spear and club attacks. Those people wrote that Joshua could not win a battle EVEN WITH THE HELP OF GAWD because of that cool-ass iron.

 

Yet MORE of your babble was written and later interpreted by people who lived so long after the life of Jayzus that they basically had to piece together a pathetically inconsistent theology about saved and lost and babies and ages of accountability as the went along.

 

In short, a whole mess of parochial folk religion got misinterpreted by later pagans who saw the need to control a bunch of superstitious peons in their kingdom. They read the parochial folk religion through the lens of their pagan savior-god/blood sacrifice/elysian fields/good=heaven, bad=hell fables. Every one of the ruling authorities in the name of your Jayzus has used THEIR unique and personal interpretations of the babble to gain and maintain power.

 

You just tried to do the same thing with your sob-story. Fuck them and you. Oh, and your dead Jew corpse of a savior and his whore mother and YOUR whore mother and every other fundie that breeds its fucking spawn anywhere near rational, thinking, free people. You have fucked up the world long enough, you parasitic disease.

[Neon Genesis]

You know what good parents tell teenagers when they can't have everything they want, and yell about it not being fair? Get over it. The only difference is, you can have Heaven. It is a fair choice. You're just upset because you would have to give up this worldly life that brings you so many temporary pleasures that you're living right now to do that.

If you honestly believe that eternal hellfire is the same thing as parenthood, please do us all a favor and seek counseling before you raise children. The big difference between a parent giving a child a time out for misbehaving and God sending people to hell for misbehaving is that the child's time out does not last forever. It only lasts a limited amount of time to give the child a chance to understand a lesson about why their behavior was wrong so they can improve themselves and not make the same mistakes next time. But when God puts you in his "time out" it lasts for eternity and you have no chance to improve yourself to not make a mistake next time because you're in eternal damnation. In modern society, when a parent beats their child repeatedly or locks them in a shed and doesn't let them out to punish them, we call that child abuse. Tell me if God is supposed to be like a loving and caring parent, how is God's punishment any different than abuse? And please don't say it's because of "free will." I find it sick and disgusting when Christians try to rationalize God's abusive behavior by shifting the blame on humans and saying God allows his eternal punishment to exist to give us "free will." If I were to put a gun up to your head and order you to obey me or die, would you call that free will? No, in modern society you would call that kidnapping and I would be sent to jail for commiting such a heinous crime. Now replace the kidnapper with God and the gun with hell and tell me how is God any different than a kidnapper? How is the Christian heaven any different than a prison camp?

[Grandpa Harley]

If Chibi's kids misbehaves he buries them alive in the cellar...

[R. S. Martin]

He's petty in the same sense that a father is petty for overprotecting his children. Contrary to popular belief, we are not all God's children. God's family is like a reverse-adoption system. We adopt him as our father. God is petty in that he shows favoritism to his own children over those that would rather him just leave them alone.

 

That's just so --- well --- nice.

 

In light of the season, do you have any thoughts on what one must do in order for Santa to come down the chimney?

 

 

 

Ummm build a chimney and fire place?

[R. S. Martin]

[she brags about how logical she is. Yet for a person who claims to want to understand why people deconvert, she is being totally illogical. Our testimonies are on this site by the hundred.

 

That's just the religious mindset that makes a person stupid like that.

 

It looks like Kat and Antlerman are going to debate in the Arena.

 

You'll see what I'm talking about.

 

 

Yep, I'm watching that Arena thread. Can't wait for each new post to be posted.

[Ouroboros]

Mythra, Ruby, to get Santas attention, you have to place a plate of cookies and a glass of milk at the chimney or outside the house... it's a sacrifice.

 

Here's something interesting. In the old days (100-200 years ago?) they used to place a plate of food and wine outside the houses in Sweden during wintertime. I don't remember if it was specifically around Yule or repeatedly. But it was a peace offering to the gnomes that lived under the house who could cause havoc, destroy the harvest next year, kill your animals and many other things. Gnomes were neither good nor evil. But they were unpredictable.

 

And here's the other funny fact, gnomes had gray suits and hats, looking exactly like Santas clothes, but just not red. And the history of Santa is that he got these clothes from the gnomes. And they made it red, because of the Coke commercials using Santa. The elves got some spruced up version of the gnome dress. Santas elves are really just gnomes. The original elves were spiritual beings, without physical body, and the inhabited trees, rocks, swamps and rivers. They danced in the morning mist. and I still remember walking in the misty woods and see patterns of characters dancing in the breaking sunlight. So yeah, they exist...

 

Anyway. To get Santa to like you, you have to give him some goodies to eat. After all, his deep ho-ho-ho supported by his jolly belly is what powers the sled... and Christmas joy.

[R. S. Martin]

HanSolo, if I went to Zehr's and got a package of homebaked chocolate chip cookies and set it outside my door with a pitcher of milk, would you drop in and tell me some more of these stories about the fairy folk by the river in Sweden and under your house and how Santa powers his sled with a deep ho-ho? It sounds like a good religion and you sound like a good preacher. I don't have the bible for that religion so I need a missionary to come over and help me. Would you come if I put cookies and milk outside my door and said please?

 

Maybe I could find a beer, too, if that would make it easier.

[Ouroboros]

Ruby,

 

My newfound religion is stupidism, or also called moronism, or mabye duhism... I'm not sure which one I'd pick. It trumps any gnomes, elves, trolls or skogsrå creatures anytime.

 

But it's true. The gnomes (called "tomte" in Swedish) was one of the superstitious creatures in the old days, and they did put out food to it (whoever believed in it). The word "tomte" is also used for no other than Santa. In Swedish Santa's name is Tomten. Ergo, you can clearly see where that name came from. The early Santa stories and depictions of Santa came from Europe, and a swedish artist some hundred years ago made postcards with a Santa with a gray suite and hat. Coke later took it and gave him a red dress to fit the red color of the coke commercial.

 

Skogsrået was probably the words creature. It would take people who got lost in the woods. Looking at it from front, it would look like a beautiful (I think even naked) woman. But if you ever saw the back of her, you'd see a big hole. If you ever saw that, you'd be taken away and never seen again.

 

I don't remember much of the myths and such. After all it was quite a while ago I moved here. Maybe I should take up studies in it and write a book to be published here? Hey, that's not a bad idea...

[Mythra]

Skogsrået was probably the words creature.

 

Ooh. I bet she was the worst creature, too.

[Ouroboros]

Skogsrået was probably the words creature.

 

Ooh. I bet she was the worst creature, too.

Well, if you're a stupidist and duhist like me then you're expected to make mistakes like that.

[R. S. Martin]

Thank you for the story, Hans. I am sure it would sell if it had the appropriate art to go with the stories. Esp. if you can dig something up from your own memory of forms you saw in the mist along the river. That fascinates me because it's right along the lines of what I've concluded people must have experienced. I'm convinced that these stories are not built on thin air. I am also convinced that these creatures do not exist in factual reality. So I've been trying to figure out where in the human brain the two connect.

[R. S. Martin]

But yeah, I saw your and AM's hilarious discussion on duhism, and a trinity of four. I was laughing and having a great time all by my lone self.

 

I wonder what became of end3.

 

Where I grew up there was a road known as the Third of Peel. And its end was one concession over from our farm. So end3, i.e. end of 3rd, is not all that strange when I think about it. I just didn't think about the right road until just now.And yeah, there are about three farms right about there where it ends. Last I heard none of them were the kind of Mennonite who would have internet access but who knows??? Maybe we were talking with three back-country farmers???

[Ouroboros]

Thank you for the story, Hans. I am sure it would sell if it had the appropriate art to go with the stories. Esp. if you can dig something up from your own memory of forms you saw in the mist along the river. That fascinates me because it's right along the lines of what I've concluded people must have experienced. I'm convinced that these stories are not built on thin air. I am also convinced that these creatures do not exist in factual reality. So I've been trying to figure out where in the human brain the two connect.

It makes a lot of sense.

 

When you walk in the early morning and the mist is heavy and moving around by the slow breeze. It dances. It moves. It form shapes and faces. And the same happens at dawn and dusk with the trees. It is scary when you walk out there alone. But I can still remember the amazing feeling in a morning like that. You feel you're in Heaven and seeing angels. ... but back to reality... it's just vapors.

 

Back in old days, really long time ago, it is completely understandable that the early humans saw these shadows dancing and believing it was something alive. Since it wasn't a body, it was spiritual. The ideas grew, and stories were made.

[Guest N.T.Wrong]

I saw the title of the thread and I thought we were going to discuss iron chariots.

 

You're right. oladotun - the "age of accountability" thing isn't scriptural. It's cultural. Christians had to come up with something that would cast a little better light on their deity. To illustrate Yahweh's heart of gold.

 

Actually, there were some contentious debates over the centuries about what becomes of the unsaved little ones who had their brief day in the sun. Tough admission, since to allow them entry into Heaven requires a concession that it's possible to get there without the blood of Jesus.

 

 

You all are saying almost the same thing, so I decided to just quote one of you.

 

Catholics baptize babies, and some others do too. The stupid thing about it is that those babies HAVE NOT SINNED. Alot of people and churches believe we're born with sin. I sure don't see that in the bible. Besides, it doesn't make any sense. Babies are born without sin b/c they have not sinned.

[R. S. Martin]

I saw the title of the thread and I thought we were going to discuss iron chariots.

 

You're right. oladotun - the "age of accountability" thing isn't scriptural. It's cultural. Christians had to come up with something that would cast a little better light on their deity. To illustrate Yahweh's heart of gold.

 

Actually, there were some contentious debates over the centuries about what becomes of the unsaved little ones who had their brief day in the sun. Tough admission, since to allow them entry into Heaven requires a concession that it's possible to get there without the blood of Jesus.

 

 

You all are saying almost the same thing, so I decided to just quote one of you.

 

Catholics baptize babies, and some others do too. The stupid thing about it is that those babies HAVE NOT SINNED. Alot of people and churches believe we're born with sin. I sure don't see that in the bible. Besides, it doesn't make any sense. Babies are born without sin b/c they have not sinned.

 

 

 

That's what you think. Some christians don't think that. They think babies are polluted by virtue of being human. As the psalmist says, "I was born altogether in sin," or something to that effect.

[Guest xyz3]

Blasphemy, of course. This is your alternative to Christianity, seriously? How can you not see that you're being driven by an evil power?

 

 

How can you not see that these are just words? How can you not see that if there is a god of the universe he would be petty and infintile to care what some little member of his vast creation says about him? So petty and infintile in fact that he would take the time to ensure they suffer for an eternity.

 

If it makes sense to you then you must be petty and infintile.

 

You've just given your entire life savings to your son, whom you've raised yourself from the time he was born to the age he is now. You've taught him right from wrong, good from evil, and to have respect for his elders. You've basically raised him in every way you know to be right, where he can go through life without any regret of choices he's made, where he can look back and honestly say that he was a good person. He moves out of state, and you don't see him for a few years.

 

Then you decide to visit him. You try to call first, but his phone is disconnected. So you get worried and decide to make the long trip over to his new home and see how life is treating him. When you arrive, you find a house that looks normal enough from the outside. But you walk in, and you find him doing the most heinous thing you can think of in your mind right now, with a house filled with nothing but empty pizza boxes with rats crawling in them and grime on the parts of the floor visible through the months-old trash that has piled up throughout the house, with various stains from who knows what on the walls.

 

You collapse on the floor, feeling as though you should be crying, but you're so numb from this flood of disappointment that you can't even move. You've been betrayed, and all you're guilty of is giving your son the best chance at life anyone could give him.

 

This isn't even a drop in the ocean of the disappointment God has in us. We were his perfect creation, and now look at us. He's already created a hell for the person that's done this to us, and the only other thing he has created besides earth is Heaven. The Earth will be destroyed, and what makes you think we're worthy of getting some golden ticket in to Heaven because "it's not fair!"?

 

You know what good parents tell teenagers when they can't have everything they want, and yell about it not being fair? Get over it. The only difference is, you can have Heaven. It is a fair choice. You're just upset because you would have to give up this worldly life that brings you so many temporary pleasures that you're living right now to do that.

 

Wait, so if this happened an you walked in on your son... what would an appropriate reaction to this be? Crushing disapointment, yes. But the kid is young and foolish, and with time may straighten out an learn how to balance a checkbook. Should you shoot him? Tie him up in the basement and torture him for the rest of his mortal life? That's what people are objecting to: the idea that God could be justified in doing whatever he felt like to people for their "sins". If God really throws people into ETERNAL punishment for a FINITE number of sins, then God is either unjust or insane.

[The-Captain]

Blasphemy, of course. This is your alternative to Christianity, seriously? How can you not see that you're being driven by an evil power?

 

 

How can you not see that these are just words? How can you not see that if there is a god of the universe he would be petty and infintile to care what some little member of his vast creation says about him? So petty and infintile in fact that he would take the time to ensure they suffer for an eternity.

 

If it makes sense to you then you must be petty and infintile.

 

You've just given your entire life savings to your son, whom you've raised yourself from the time he was born to the age he is now. You've taught him right from wrong, good from evil, and to have respect for his elders. You've basically raised him in every way you know to be right, where he can go through life without any regret of choices he's made, where he can look back and honestly say that he was a good person. He moves out of state, and you don't see him for a few years.

 

Then you decide to visit him. You try to call first, but his phone is disconnected. So you get worried and decide to make the long trip over to his new home and see how life is treating him. When you arrive, you find a house that looks normal enough from the outside. But you walk in, and you find him doing the most heinous thing you can think of in your mind right now, with a house filled with nothing but empty pizza boxes with rats crawling in them and grime on the parts of the floor visible through the months-old trash that has piled up throughout the house, with various stains from who knows what on the walls.

 

You collapse on the floor, feeling as though you should be crying, but you're so numb from this flood of disappointment that you can't even move. You've been betrayed, and all you're guilty of is giving your son the best chance at life anyone could give him.

 

This isn't even a drop in the ocean of the disappointment God has in us. We were his perfect creation, and now look at us. He's already created a hell for the person that's done this to us, and the only other thing he has created besides earth is Heaven. The Earth will be destroyed, and what makes you think we're worthy of getting some golden ticket in to Heaven because "it's not fair!"?

 

You know what good parents tell teenagers when they can't have everything they want, and yell about it not being fair? Get over it. The only difference is, you can have Heaven. It is a fair choice. You're just upset because you would have to give up this worldly life that brings you so many temporary pleasures that you're living right now to do that.

 

An intrinsically flawed nature that will inevitably result in committing an eternally punishable offense (a mouthful there!) is the best chance at life God can give us?

 

Hardly a perfect creation

 

Thats feeling betrayed for creating something that will ultimately fall short of your system of expectations.. who is at fault there?