Theological Kryptonite

[oladotun]

There is one question that fundamentalist Christians cannot answer objectively; it is one of the questions that shows the tremendous loopholes in their doctrines and in Scripture. The question is “what happens to babies and little children who do not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, do they go to hell?†I first asked this question at a Bible study over a decade ago when I was still mired in fundie junk, and I was amazed at the answer I was given. I asked the question because I remember being told over and over again (with Bible verses as arsenal) that the only way that a person could go to heaven was if they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The reasoning always goes like this: Because of the mistakes of Adam and Eve, we are all born sinners (ref. Romans 3:23) and the wages of this sin is death (Romans 6:23), so we need a savior, someone who is divine and sinlessly perfect to pay the price for our sins, and that person is Jesus, so we must accept his gift by faith to go to heaven (Romans 10:9), otherwise we spend eternity in hell after death. So my question was, if that is the case, what happens to a baby who does not even cognitively know anything about all this, but then dies for whatever reason, say a terminal illness or whatever, does that child go to hell? I was amazed at the answer that I was given, which went something like this: small children are exempt from this rule because they have not reached the so-called “age of accountability†(by the way, there is no mention of such an age in the Bible) and until they get there they are technically “under grace� My next question then was, “what is the age of accountability, and show me the Scripture that talks about it, and what if the child misses the age by say one day. So if the age is 6 years old, and the child is 6 years and a day, and hasn’t yet accepted Christ, does he or she go to hell?†I quickly realized that my questions were making everyone uncomfortable, no one could agree on what the age of accountability was (“only God knew†was what one person told me) and their answers were complete and utter bulllshit, and a classic example of how fundies make rules to fit their warped and bondage forming mentality. The Scripture that was manipulated to explain their so-called theory that small children do not go to hell came from 2 Samuel 12:22-23, where King David cried over the loss of his baby son, saying that “he (the son) will not come to me, but I will go to him†the implication being that one day David would meet his son in heaven since his son was not coming back to earth.

 

This answer was the beginning of the end of my fundie journey. Christians can’t have it both ways, you can’t say on one hand that there is no way to get to heaven except that you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and then allow for a big loophole that does not mesh with your own Scriptures. The fact is that Christians themselves do not want to accept the fact that their book basically teaches that even if a baby or young child does not accept Jesus, they are going to hell, so they find a neat little way to rationalize away. It is complete and utter hogwash and they know it. I am glad that I asked that question now, because like a crack on your windshield that spreads like a spider web, it slowly precipitated my realizing that this whole thing is a huge, albeit effective sham!!

[RankStranger]

I discussed this(among other things) with a Lutheran preacher who knocked on my door a couple years ago. It took quite a bit of discussion- I had to pin him down on specifics- but he reluctantly admitted that he (and the entire Wisconsin Synod, apparently) believed that unbaptized babies went to hell. I told him that that was disgusting, and ridiculed Gawd for punishing those wicked babies.

 

Then I challenged him to share this nasty belief with his congregation in his next sermon... I said he wouldn't to it. We continued our discussion via email for a little while- and for what it's worth- he claimed that he brought this up in his very next sermon. I really don't know if he told his congregation that unbaptized babies deserve eternal torment... but I figure that this situation was a win/win for me. I may never know which, but either I made a preacher to knowingly lie, or I forced him to reveal a particularly nasty point of theology to his 'flock'.

[SWIM]

Oh they do try to answer this. They will tell you 99% of the time that children get a "free pass" and that the rules don't apply to them. The logic is that they have not lived long enough to sin, and since they have not be told of jesus, they are blameless for not believing in him.

 

That's the *pat* answer fundies give you on that.

 

And it doesnt matter to them that is conflicts with "original sin" they will just look all misty and say gawd works in mysterious ways...

[Mythra]

I saw the title of the thread and I thought we were going to discuss iron chariots.

 

You're right. oladotun - the "age of accountability" thing isn't scriptural. It's cultural. Christians had to come up with something that would cast a little better light on their deity. To illustrate Yahweh's heart of gold.

 

Actually, there were some contentious debates over the centuries about what becomes of the unsaved little ones who had their brief day in the sun. Tough admission, since to allow them entry into Heaven requires a concession that it's possible to get there without the blood of Jesus.

[upstarter]

This is slightly off topic, but something that's been bugging the shit out of me lately is how xtians and psudo-xtians seem to believe that everything goes to heaven except non-extian humans. Dogs, goldfish, sparrows that fall out of trees, frogs squashed on the road. Shit, why does gawd take all of them but not the nice granny down the street who had the good sense not to go to church?

 

Okay, I don't believe in heaven anyway, but I'm so sick of people telling little kids that their dog is in heaven! Did the dog accept Jesus as his Lord and Saviour? Why do dogs get a special ticket?

 

Imagine saying to a kid, "It's okay Jason your dog is in heaven with Jesus, but Uncle Dave who you loved so much and who gave you great presents and took you to Disneyland... yeah he's in hell."

[SWIM]

This is slightly off topic, but something that's been bugging the shit out of me lately is how xtians and psudo-xtians seem to believe that everything goes to heaven except non-extian humans. Dogs, goldfish, sparrows that fall out of trees, frogs squashed on the road. Shit, why does gawd take all of them but not the nice granny down the street who had the good sense not to go to church?

 

Okay, I don't believe in heaven anyway, but I'm so sick of people telling little kids that their dog is in heaven! Did the dog accept Jesus as his Lord and Saviour? Why do dogs get a special ticket?

 

Imagine saying to a kid, "It's okay Jason your dog is in heaven with Jesus, but Uncle Dave who you loved so much and who gave you great presents and took you to Disneyland... yeah he's in hell."

 

Most xtians I have encountered don't believe animals have souls, that they cease to exisit when they die. They use this as one of the things that make us "superiour" to animals. They tell kids this little white lie just to make them feel better.

 

Family Guy - "Brian says: Chris go to your room" "Chris says: I don't have to listen to you, you don't have a soul!" lol

[Aqua Kitty]

You're right. oladotun - the "age of accountability" thing isn't scriptural. It's cultural. Christians had to come up with something that would cast a little better light on their deity. To illustrate Yahweh's heart of gold.

 

Actually, there were some contentious debates over the centuries about what becomes of the unsaved little ones who had their brief day in the sun. Tough admission, since to allow them entry into Heaven requires a concession that it's possible to get there without the blood of Jesus.

 

And what about all the billions of people who died before Jesus was even born? Of course they're all in hell, right? Unless you buy into the Catholic purgatory / Jesus preached to them in hell while he was dead for the three days thing. (or something like that)

[GraphicsGuy]

Oh they do try to answer this. They will tell you 99% of the time that children get a "free pass" and that the rules don't apply to them. The logic is that they have not lived long enough to sin, and since they have not be told of jesus, they are blameless for not believing in him.

 

That's the *pat* answer fundies give you on that.

 

And it doesnt matter to them that is conflicts with "original sin" they will just look all misty and say gawd works in mysterious ways...

 

Dammit, Michael, that was my EXACT answer! Did you peek at my paper?

[R. S. Martin]

Looks like you started two threads with the same question--one in Rants and Replies and one in Theological Issues. I responded to the one in Rants and Replies. Since this seems to be where the action is, I will copy it here:

 

Most of us start with one question or another that makes no sense. And it just snowballs from there. The fact that so many of us come to the same conclusion from such a vast number of different questions may be some indication of the serious inconsistencies in the theology.

 

There is one question that fundamentalist Christians cannot answer objectively; it is one of the questions that shows the tremendous loopholes in their doctrines and in Scripture. The question is “what happens to babies and little children who do not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, do they go to hell?†I first asked this question at a Bible study over a decade ago when I was still mired in fundie junk, and I was amazed at the answer I was given. I asked the question because I remember being told over and over again (with Bible verses as arsenal) that the only way that a person could go to heaven was if they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The reasoning always goes like this: Because of the mistakes of Adam and Eve, we are all born sinners (ref. Romans 3:23) and the wages of this sin is death (Romans 6:23), so we need a savior, someone who is divine and sinlessly perfect to pay the price for our sins, and that person is Jesus, so we must accept his gift by faith to go to heaven (Romans 10:9), otherwise we spend eternity in hell after death.

 

I think this is what is called Original Sin. Some churches, such as Roman Catholic and Lutheran, baptize infants to wash them of Original Sin so they can go to heaven when/if they die before the age of reason. I think there's major holes in their theology, too, but possibly it takes care of that one problem--given that a lot of other things are true that I don't believe in.

 

Congratulations in doing your own thinking despite the brainwashing and persisting till you found your way out of whichever version of the cult you found yourself in.

[oladotun]

And what about all the billions of people who died before Jesus was even born? Of course they're all in hell, right? Unless you buy into the Catholic purgatory / Jesus preached to them in hell while he was dead for the three days thing. (or something like that)

 

I asked a mininster this question once and he told me that those born before Jesus lived were "saved" by their faith in God. and since God and Jesus are the same person, they were saved. He used the example of Abraham for which the Bible says, he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. But this does not answer the question about babies and the dilemm of original sin. Bottom line, they don't know and use fundie answers to try and run around the loopholes

[lemon]

For a fundie to admit that babies and little children go to heaven would give them no choice but to admit that anyone without knowledge of the concept of salvation could escape hell. I remember getting into a discussion about this issue on a christian forum. A poster said that she didn't know if babies went to heaven but whatever God does is fair, just, and right. Excuse me, but sending a baby or small child to hell would make a deity unfair, unjust, and wrong. This poster was just another one of those fearful and blind fundies who are so zealous to the point where they make no logical sense. I was a bit relieved to hear other christians "calling her" on that ridiculous statement. No I can't think of any verse which specifically says "babies will go to heaven when they die." Then again, a lot of biblical issues aren't clear. But I pretty much came to a conclusion based on the following:

 

Matthew 18

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

The passage shows Christ speaking to an adult about being the "greatest in the kingdom." There is the statement in a later verse (6) which mentions "little ones who believe in me" which may be a bit questionable. Still yet, that verse was speaking about a little one suffering offenses, not necessarily eternal destiny. Whatever the case, it appears from the verse above that there is something about the childlike state that automatically gets them a free pass. Well, to me it does.

[Kat22]

Romans 2:9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

 

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

Now, I will not be so arrogant as to say I understand every message within the bible. However, reading this passage, it seems to me that God is saying there are exceptions to the condemnation of hell. Christ said "No one may come to the father accept by me". This tells me that He is the one who makes the final decision. Since He is also called our Judge, this makes sense. So, for those who do not hear or understand the law (such as children, the mentally handicapped, isolated souls in third world countries etc), it seems that they fall under a different category than the rest of us.

 

My husband and I had a big discussion about this just last night. Not about babies and children in particular, but about how God's judgment will work. I was very upset when I saw a respected Christian website post a video about a person going to hell simply because his Christian friend never bothered to tell him how to be saved from it. Everything I have experienced has shown me that God knows what He is doing and is fair in all His judgments. He would not allow OUR failing to thrust punishment on someone else. They will be held accountable for their own failings, not ours.

 

Therefore, no one will be punished to hell because I failed to tell them about Christ. God will either make sure they have the chance, via someone else, or they will fall under the exception mentioned above. How exactly that will work, I do not know. But this shows that there ARE exceptions. When we have not been taught God's word, our own consciences will condemn us (if we chose not to follow it) or defend us (if we chose to listen to the law God has written on our hearts).

 

The problem many Christians have (which is why the hell, fire and brimstone is pushed so much) is that they want everyone to feel an urgency to spread the word about God's grace by suffering our punishment for us. LOL! That's kind of funny (in an ironic sort of way). Spread the urgency about God's GRACE by putting the fear of being responsible for someone going to HELL on them. HUmans have a strange way of twisting things, don't they?

 

But God has made it clear that we have a choice. In order to really GIVE us a choice, He would have to leave a way out of ministering the good news. In other words, He would have to make it possible for people to get to heaven even if we were lazy little Christians and didn't care about anyone's salvation but our own. If He forced a decision upon us, by saying "teach or all of them will go to hell", then He takes our free will (to push Him aside and ignore His instruction) from us by making us feel like we are responsible for saving the entire world.

 

It's a sticky subject that has trapped many Christians. How to fire people up for spreading the word without lying by saying they are responsible for keeping people out of hell. As humans, many take the easy route and just lie and guilt people into ministry.

[Deva]

When we have not been taught God's word, our own consciences will condemn us (if we chose not to follow it) or defend us (if we chose to listen to the law God has written on our hearts).

 

How does this work out in real life? Did the Native Americans and the people of India for thousands of years have "condemned consciences?" Seems to me that the only time they felt condemned was when the missionaries came over and told them they were doing evil and worshipping the wrong gods.

 

Then again, since you admit you don't know how this works out, I probably won't get an answer. Why believe something you don't understand when there is no evidence it exists?

 

The problem many Christians have (which is why the hell, fire and brimstone is pushed so much) is that they want everyone to feel an urgency to spread the word about God's grace by suffering our punishment for us. LOL! That's kind of funny (in an ironic sort of way). Spread the urgency about God's GRACE by putting the fear of being responsible for someone going to HELL on them. HUmans have a strange way of twisting things, don't they?

 

Well why not feel an urgency? According to fundamentalists, Christ gave a commandment to go into all the world and preach the gospel. They feel they must obey. It does make logical sense to them. You don't seem to realize that the whole thing is twisted, not just saying a person is responsible for someone going to hell. There is still hell, which I assume you believe in. That god would throw anyone into an eternal hell for anything they did or were in their short life here on earth can only be a product of a twisted human imagination. Why not start at the beginning and throw the whole thing out rather than picking out this one issue?

[Grandpa Harley]

The 'Great commission' isn't just the purview of Fundies... They're just louder and more overt...

[Deva]

The 'Great commission' isn't just the purview of Fundies... They're just louder and more overt...

 

How very true -- but the fundies also excel in making a big guilt trip out of it. You are responsible for your neighbor going to hell if you don't witness to them.

[Grandpa Harley]

My esteemed elder brother, who IS actually one of the most amiable people I know, reckons we should go back to burning them... Britain has burned both RCC and Proddies with equal glee...

[SWIM]

The 'Great commission' isn't just the purview of Fundies... They're just louder and more overt...

 

 

LOL heres a great example of *email* attempts at conversion, you will love this GH

[Mythra]

I guess what I find startling is that christians encounter a moral dilemna in accepting the idea that children and babies are sent to hell. Without seeing the utter evil contained in the hell concept itself.

 

Luckily enough, it's not real. And it's a concept that isn't even original to christianity.

 

But- about the Great Commission. There is a little problem with it.

 

In the book of Acts, we have Peter dreaming a dream (or having a vision, or WHATEVER) that Gentiles should be included in their little salvation celebration. Here is the apostles reaction to Peter's explanation of his dream:

 

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

 

Now, if Jesus had explicitly told them on a mountaintop in Galilee that this was precisely what he commanded, why the fuck did it take Peter having a dream to clue them in?

 

Wouldn't one of them have said - "hey, you dumb bastards - don't you remember what Jesus told us just before he flew up into the air?"

 

I know the apostles aren't portrayed as the brightest bunch of guys. But they couldn't have been that stupid.

 

These bible writers should have come up with a more cohesive story before going to print with it.

[Deva]

IBut- about the Great Commission. There is a little problem with it.

 

In the book of Acts, we have Peter dreaming a dream (or having a vision, or WHATEVER) that Gentiles should be included in their little salvation celebration. Here is the apostles reaction to Peter's explanation of his dream:

 

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

 

Now, if Jesus had explicitly told them on a mountaintop in Galilee that this was precisely what he commanded, why the fuck did it take Peter having a dream to clue them in?

 

Wouldn't one of them have said - "hey, you dumb bastards - don't you remember what Jesus told us just before he flew up into the air?"

 

Another example of someone coming in 30 years or so later after the fact and trying like crazy to make it fit together so their version of xianity would come out on top. Too bad, it still didn't fit. Hard to make the teachings of a Jewish apocalyptic preacher sound palatable later on-- especially when his predictions of the apocalypse didn't come true.

[Mythra]

Hard to make the teachings of a Jewish apocalyptic preacher sound palatable later on-- especially when his predictions of the apocalypse didn't come true.

 

Indeed.

 

Or, hard to fix the texts any further, once they had been copied a hundred times and scattered all thoughout the Roman Empire. They needed a really good proofreader at the outset - to make sure they had all of their stories straight.

[Mythra]

I don't suppose christians will ever be able to see how nonsensical their beliefs in hell are. But it's pretty obvious to the skeptic.

 

The scene: Judgment Day.

 

The ALMIGHTY GOD: "I stand here in judgment of you. And I find you guilty and I sentence you to screaming, torture, anguish, and despair. Forever."

 

Dead ex-human guy: "But, God - I don't understand. What did I do in life that was so horrible?"

 

The ALMIGHTY GOD: "Improper Thinking. Now GO into the outer darkness, you doer of iniquity."

 

 

Give me a break.

[Mythra]

From Robert Ingersoll's "How to Be Saved" http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...o_be_saved.html

 

Do not imagine for a moment that I think people who disagree with me are bad people. I admit, and I cheerfully admit, that a very large proportion of mankind, and a very large majority, a vast number are reasonably honest. I believe that most Christians believe what they teach; that most ministers are endeavoring to make this world better. I do not pretend to be better than they are. It is an intellectual question. It is a question, first, of intellectual liberty, and after that, a question to be settled at the bar of human reason. I do not pretend to be better than they are. Probably I am a good deal worse than many of them, but that is not the question. The question is: Bad as I am, have I the right to think? And I think I have for two reasons:

 

First, I cannot help it. And secondly, I like it.

 

The whole question is right at a point. If I have not a right to express my thoughts, who has?

 

"Oh," they say, "we will allow you to think, we will not burn you."

 

"All right; why won't you burn me?"

 

"Because we think a decent man will allow others to think and to express his thought."

 

"Then the reason you do not persecute me for my thought is that you believe it would be infamous in you?"

 

"Yes."

 

"And yet you worship a God who will, as you declare, punish me forever?"

 

Surely an infinite God ought to be as just as man. Surely no God can have the right to punish his children for being honest. He should not reward hypocrisy with heaven, and punish candor with eternal pain.

 

The next question then is: Can I commit a sin against God by thinking? If God did not intend I should think, why did he give me a thinker? For one, I am convinced, not only that I have the right to think, but that it is my duty to express my honest thoughts. Whatever the gods may say we must be true to ourselves.

[Onyx]

Burning of babies in hell is equally as politicially incorrect as saying these negros after being lynched, will burn in hell. Also they are cute, innocent and fundies just plain can't have that, can't they?

 

I will now imagine the unimaginable for you all.

 

 

 

A baby is facing God at His Great White Throne.

Galaxies stay in their everlasting places, new stars are made in nebulas and planets teems with bacterial life, seen out of the window of The Throne.

The baby is floating above the brilliantly white marble floor, he vaguely makes out the outline of The bloodied Lamb then the all bright, all compassing and all divine God with his attendant angels and cherubims.

It is the last Judgement, the wheat and the chaff is being seperated.

God's fire eyes stared at the tiny helpless baby.

God bigger than big, delibrates for what seemed like eons.

 

He points at the blue eyed baby.

"Thou little babe, as thou art not saved, thou wilst go downards to th' place where the sinners dwell, consumed by maggots, where they wilst thirst but they wilst n'ver drink of th' sweet dewdrop of water, th' fire wouldst consumeth you whole like a chaff wheat.

Thou never knew me, thou never repented, thou n'ver prayed to th' Saviour on which the damned world's salvation hang. Go therefore into the eternal hell where eternal pain resides."

The baby feels a loss of floating, he is thrown into the dark abyss of Sodom where it is no longer 120 days but eternality.

The fires eventually appear, he falls down onto the piping hot rocks, his head cracks open.

God and the elect is laughing at the poor baby who just died.

God regenerates him for the fun of it.

The baby burns up, controlled grotesquely like a puppet by The Holy Father, again, again, again...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now I know why people are not keen on babies burning in hell... Marquis de God indeed.

[Grandpa Harley]

I find the idea strangely pleasurable... should I be Calvinist?

[Mythra]

I find the idea strangely pleasurable...

 

Really? There are professionals available who can replicate many of the same sensations....

 

But they're expensive.

 

Or so I'm told.