Theological Kryptonite

[Vigile]

So you expect that most folks will recieve a sentence somewhere between the standard Christian concepts of 'heaven' and 'hell'?

 

I honestly don't know how it will go. All I for sure is that hell is real and God will not take it lightly. He will take everything into consideration before He passes that final judgement.

 

 

Ha ha. I just love it when xians get all sure about things. The only thing you know for sure is that the sun will probably rise in the morning. You know this because probabilities are high based on past occurances and our understanding of how the earth spins. You merely THINK that there is a hell, a god, and that your theology is maybe somewhat kinda ball park-like right. You have no evidence, no observed understanding, and no valid experience to base your assumptions on. Even the book you got it from and the holy ghost (read pastor and other outside influences) who told you how to interpret the book are wholey subjective and up to dispute on the matter.

 

So how is it again that you KNOW for sure?

[SWIM]

Big problem with a lot of people is they have differing definitions for "fact" and "truth". My mom used to tell me her "truths" were personal and did not have to be my "truths".

 

This is just a mis-understanding of the word "truth" in my opinion. TRUE is synonmous with FACT. A truth is supposed to be factual. People like kat use the word truth instead of the word "opinion". If you actually read her stuff and switch out that word in your mind she sounds less like a rabbid lunatic and more like just an ordinary delusional person.

[Grandpa Harley]

To claim a subjective experience, or even just a strongly held opinion, as either 'fact' or 'truth' is basically a lie in party frock...

[R. S. Martin]

So you expect that most folks will recieve a sentence somewhere between the standard Christian concepts of 'heaven' and 'hell'?

 

All I for sure is that hell is real

 

But Kat, the Bible lies!

 

Matt. 7:7 says Seek and ye shall find. Nobody ever sought longer and harder than I did for answers and the answers were not forth-coming. THE BIBLE LIES.

 

The only evidence we have for hell is what is written in the bible and the bible has proven itself to be a liar. I would say god is a liar but for that he would have to exist.

 

Therefore, since the only evidence we have for hell is in the bible, and we have evidence that the bible lies, we have no evidence for hell.

 

CONCLUSION: You do NOT know for sure that hell is real. You just think you know.

 

You can tell satan to "get thee behind me" but he would have to exist to obey you. I am a human being and I speak out of my own human intellect. I will not get behind you. I speak to your face. If you have the truth you will not be afraid to have me speak to your face. If you get mad or scared we will all know that you did not have the truth. We already know you don't have the truth because you build on a book that has proven itself a liar.

 

In one of your posts you talk about the experience of God. If you think atheists cannot experience "god" just go read this thread. No Christian has ever had a more vivid experience of "god" than atheists; Christians just discount the atheist experience. That makes Christians liars. And the Bible says all liars have their part in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8).

 

You've got some really serious thinking do, Kat.

[Kat22]

This is what I see. If God exists and he sees that the teen was stealing, he has to appear and punish the teen in public to prove he exists. That would make a believer out of me.

 

Back in the times when God made His presence more obviously known, that still didn't make believers out of skeptics. Christ rose the dead and they STILL didn't believe. So, I'm sorry to tell you. If you refuse to believe in God with the evidence that is available to you, you will explain away any miracle that He presents.

 

The Bible talks about talking snakes and raising the people from the dead and both of them hasn't ever been proved. Big Bang is different. If it is proven then it is true. If it is not, then it is replaced by a new theory. Science goes on even if it is proven wrong on one thing and right on another. Also scientists are far honest in admitting their mistakes, though there are exceptions. Not many creationists or theologians can say they were wrong about it all.

 

There are exceptions in a lot of areas of research. And the BB is still not proven. So, if your statement is true, it should be "replaced with a new theory", right? A person being raised form the dead may not have been proven yet. But unexplained healing from deadly diseases has.

 

A good man and woman would feel the same but unlike God, we will never punish people for eternity.

 

None of us are good. We just pretend to be. And there is no way any of us can understand God's position. You Will either trust that God won't send someone to hell unless they really deserve it or you won't you have chosen not to.

 

If God is all knowing, all powerful and all good then he should give you morals to understand why you should do it and then act on these morals.

 

He has. We just choose not to listen.

 

He judges us so why we shouldn't judge him? A famous Roman quote goes like this "Who watches the Watchmen?" We should judge God on how he performs. If he does his job properly, we wouldn't have cause to judge him back. But he didn't, he let Devil destroy us all and kill entire towns. So our judgment of him is if he exists, that he does a piss poor or negligent job in preventing evil.

 

God never said He would prevent evil; to do so would take away our freedom to choose. I'm sure you wouldn't like the idea of being a mindless drone, would you? That's exactly what you would be if God didn't give you the right to make bad choices. Yet He sees every bad choice and decides the best way to bring about the best outcome.

 

A parent tells a child what is right from wrong and judges the choices of their children accordingly; so why isn't the child allowed to judge and punish the parent? Being angry at God doesn't change the fact that He is still God. Many people are angry at Bush for keeping our troops in Iraq for so long. Not that Bush is perfect (he has made plenty of mistakes), but few know of Iraq's leader warning Bush that Iran is prepared to trample through Iraq, on their way to destroy Israel, as soon as our troops leave. Bush is holding the line until the leader of Iraq says that their troops are ready to handle Iran by themselves. We think we know the entire picture but we do not. We want to judge the God who sees the entire picture, but we can't; not fairly anyway.

 

Well if he exists, he just did that. He left us to fend for ourselves. He just don't care about us if he is out there. So, no he is not a good god if it was the case.

 

Darlin', He didn't leave you to fend for yourself. He is still right with you, helping you when you don't even know it. He loves you even when you hate Him. He reaches for you even when you push Him away. Even as you choose how you will dispute these very comments, He is standing right there rooting for you to hear Him.

[Kat22]

Irony alert! Irony Alert! According to Bible, God will throw billions of innocent people into hell even babies, disableds and skeptics who have never gotten a speeding fine in their life. How is that humane?

 

I think she's saying that she doesn't believe that God will neccesarily do that (i.e. she isn't taking the bible literally). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I take some of the bible literally and some I understand as metaphors. What I know for certain is that no one can fully understand the mind of God. And they ESPECIALLY can't get it all down into one tiny book! The bible gives us instructions, history and a small IDEA of what's after this life (good and bad). But to say it contains the entire picture is to say God is limited to what can be written in human words. I think God wanted to be fair to us by letting us know it's not all peaches and cream after we die. That there is a possibility of punishment if the wrong decisions are made. I would hate to think that punishment is a possibility and God just decided to not warn us about it! But, just like any parent, He always takes everything into account. What we see as exceptions and leniency is really just God being Just and gracious. We are but a small image of an infinite God. The worst of us is our choices when we stray form God's will. Take the best of us, and multiply exponentially, and that is our God.

[R. S. Martin]

Kat, I saw the line in your signature: Monkeys breed with monkeys and you get monkeys, OK! You don't get a new species!!" - Todd Friel.

 

Only fundies think anyone preaches that monkeys breed humans. You might want to actually read Darwin and study evolution theory before making crazy statements about it. You'd be in for a major surprise. The stuff fundies claim about Darwin and evolution is so much crap. I had no idea but I read Darwin and was surprised in a BIG WAY. He never even mentions monkey in Origin of the Species!

 

Please don't make such a fool of yourself. Do your homework before you pretend to be an authority. A fair number of us on these forums have at least one university degree in church history or theology or the equivilent in personal study. It seems you have not.

 

Being a fool for Christ is just that--a fool. Jesus was never a fool. He answered his adversaries in ways that they could not answer back. You and your fundy friends do nothing but make major fools of yourselves by making crazy statements like your sig.

 

By the way, if you want to know how highly we folks here esteem Todd Friel, check out WOTM Watchdog owned by one of our own, Former Follier.

[Grandpa Harley]

"I take some of the bible literally and some I understand as metaphors. "

 

Translation: I make it up as I go along...

 

I revise my 'muppet' evaluation... Cherry-picking muppet...

 

She really is a cretin... I particularly like her arrogance

 

"None of us are good. We just pretend to be."

 

KAt, why are you here? We don't want you or need you and we think you're evil and the only thing stopping you killing is your god delusions...

[Grandpa Harley]

"Back in the times when God made His presence more obviously known, that still didn't make believers out of skeptics. Christ rose the dead and they STILL didn't believe. So, I'm sorry to tell you. If you refuse to believe in God with the evidence that is available to you, you will explain away any miracle that He presents."

 

Specious nonsense... within the plot line, those who saw those things believed them... so, within terms of your bible you're speaking from an orifice more commonly associated with defecation...

 

You muppet...

[Kat22]

I could go on and on replying to each person who is disputing my point of view. Bottom line is this:

 

The bible is accurate or it isn't. If it is accurate, then there really is a God and there really is a hell. You can like it or lump it, that fact won't change. Saying "I don't believe in hell because it's too cruel", and rejecting the God of the bible because He says there is, is just as silly as saying "I don't believe in gravity because it's too restricting" and jumping out of a plane without a parachute.

 

So, if I were in your shoes, I would think about whether my decision about God is based off of fact, leading to my decision. Or a case built based on a pre-set bias, stemmed from anger toward God because I think He's unfair.

 

I am not going to tell you you're right and I'm not going to say you're wrong. My oppinon doesn't matter. I can only say that all the disputing, over whether we think hell is fair or not, is a moot point. If hell is really there, it doesn't matter whether or not you think it's fair. You're still going there if God decides that is your destination. Scream, yell, call God names. It doesn't matter. What will be will be and this life is the only one you have to make sure you're right.

[Grandpa Harley]

OK... we think it's wrong.... go with your god... you demon worshipper...

 

If there is a God, and it's your god, and we have free will, then we choose not to follow him becuase he's a cunt.

 

 

The evidence points mostly at there being no God, and certainly not a god in the sense of the self absorbed devil outlined in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic faiths...

 

I repeat, why are you here? We still think you're insane or evil...

[Kat22]

Kat, I saw the line in your signature: Monkeys breed with monkeys and you get monkeys, OK! You don't get a new species!!" - Todd Friel.

 

Only fundies think anyone preaches that monkeys breed humans.

 

I used it as a quote because I thought it was funny. Not because I believe that scientists think we came from monkeys. sheesh!

 

See y'all in another thread.

[Grandpa Harley]

Humour, when you set the sanity bar as low as you do, is not a good idea...

[Mythra]

Scream, yell, call God names. It doesn't matter. What will be will be and this life is the only one you have to make sure you're right.

 

And this alone should give you some indication of how sure we are. Sure enough that we are willing to bet eternity on it.

 

You're like a person who is trying to hand us a stack of $100 bills. Except we have already recognized that the money is counterfeit.

[white_raven23]

I could go on and on replying to each person who is disputing my point of view. Bottom line is this:

 

The bible is accurate or it isn't. If it is accurate, then there really is a God and there really is a hell. You can like it or lump it, that fact won't change. Saying "I don't believe in hell because it's too cruel", and rejecting the God of the bible because He says there is, is just as silly as saying "I don't believe in gravity because it's too restricting" and jumping out of a plane without a parachute.

 

So, if I were in your shoes, I would think about whether my decision about God is based off of fact, leading to my decision. Or a case built based on a pre-set bias, stemmed from anger toward God because I think He's unfair.

 

I am not going to tell you you're right and I'm not going to say you're wrong. My oppinon doesn't matter. I can only say that all the disputing, over whether we think hell is fair or not, is a moot point. If hell is really there, it doesn't matter whether or not you think it's fair. You're still going there if God decides that is your destination. Scream, yell, call God names. It doesn't matter. What will be will be and this life is the only one you have to make sure you're right.

 

 

This is just Pascal's Wager rehashed. It doesn't work Kat22.

Here's why (if you even bother to read it....shit....you don't even read your bible, why would I think you'd read this?):

 

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pascal.html

[Deva]

I could go on and on replying to each person who is disputing my point of view.

 

But you obviously have decided not to. OK. Feel free to ignore me, but that doesn't change the fact that you have decided to give credence to and believe in a totally man-made work of fiction with no validity in the light of modern science despite your inept efforts to invest it with such validity.

[Freethinker]

There is one question that fundamentalist Christians cannot answer objectively; it is one of the questions that shows the tremendous loopholes in their doctrines and in Scripture. The question is “what happens to babies and little children who do not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, do they go to hell?†I first asked this question at a Bible study over a decade ago when I was still mired in fundie junk, and I was amazed at the answer I was given. I asked the question because I remember being told over and over again (with Bible verses as arsenal) that the only way that a person could go to heaven was if they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The reasoning always goes like this: Because of the mistakes of Adam and Eve, we are all born sinners (ref. Romans 3:23) and the wages of this sin is death (Romans 6:23), so we need a savior, someone who is divine and sinlessly perfect to pay the price for our sins, and that person is Jesus, so we must accept his gift by faith to go to heaven (Romans 10:9), otherwise we spend eternity in hell after death. So my question was, if that is the case, what happens to a baby who does not even cognitively know anything about all this, but then dies for whatever reason, say a terminal illness or whatever, does that child go to hell? I was amazed at the answer that I was given, which went something like this: small children are exempt from this rule because they have not reached the so-called “age of accountability†(by the way, there is no mention of such an age in the Bible) and until they get there they are technically “under grace� My next question then was, “what is the age of accountability, and show me the Scripture that talks about it, and what if the child misses the age by say one day. So if the age is 6 years old, and the child is 6 years and a day, and hasn’t yet accepted Christ, does he or she go to hell?†I quickly realized that my questions were making everyone uncomfortable, no one could agree on what the age of accountability was (“only God knew†was what one person told me) and their answers were complete and utter bulllshit, and a classic example of how fundies make rules to fit their warped and bondage forming mentality. The Scripture that was manipulated to explain their so-called theory that small children do not go to hell came from 2 Samuel 12:22-23, where King David cried over the loss of his baby son, saying that “he (the son) will not come to me, but I will go to him†the implication being that one day David would meet his son in heaven since his son was not coming back to earth.

 

This answer was the beginning of the end of my fundie journey. Christians can’t have it both ways, you can’t say on one hand that there is no way to get to heaven except that you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and then allow for a big loophole that does not mesh with your own Scriptures. The fact is that Christians themselves do not want to accept the fact that their book basically teaches that even if a baby or young child does not accept Jesus, they are going to hell, so they find a neat little way to rationalize away. It is complete and utter hogwash and they know it. I am glad that I asked that question now, because like a crack on your windshield that spreads like a spider web, it slowly precipitated my realizing that this whole thing is a huge, albeit effective sham!!

 

According to Christian fundy theology, if you never sin, you go to Heaven. "Sin" is a conscious act that people do after they reach the age of accountability. Babies can be bad and misbehave, but they don't consciously realize this, therefore it doesn't count as sin. But when they get old enough and reach the "age of accountabilty," then they are "accountable" for their sins. A good fundy Xian should tell you that yes, at 6 years and 1 day the kid goes straight to hell.

 

God tries those kiddies like adults on his high court, where the punishment isn't prison for life or the chair, but eternal damnation. Damn them kiddies.

[Freethinker]

This is slightly off topic, but something that's been bugging the shit out of me lately is how xtians and psudo-xtians seem to believe that everything goes to heaven except non-extian humans. Dogs, goldfish, sparrows that fall out of trees, frogs squashed on the road. Shit, why does gawd take all of them but not the nice granny down the street who had the good sense not to go to church?

 

Okay, I don't believe in heaven anyway, but I'm so sick of people telling little kids that their dog is in heaven! Did the dog accept Jesus as his Lord and Saviour? Why do dogs get a special ticket?

 

Imagine saying to a kid, "It's okay Jason your dog is in heaven with Jesus, but Uncle Dave who you loved so much and who gave you great presents and took you to Disneyland... yeah he's in hell."

 

Fundie Xians don't believe that animals go to heaven when they die, as they believe only humans have souls. Only the soul can go to heaven. The animal returns to the dust of the earth.

[Freethinker]

You're right. oladotun - the "age of accountability" thing isn't scriptural. It's cultural. Christians had to come up with something that would cast a little better light on their deity. To illustrate Yahweh's heart of gold.

 

Actually, there were some contentious debates over the centuries about what becomes of the unsaved little ones who had their brief day in the sun. Tough admission, since to allow them entry into Heaven requires a concession that it's possible to get there without the blood of Jesus.

 

And what about all the billions of people who died before Jesus was even born? Of course they're all in hell, right? Unless you buy into the Catholic purgatory / Jesus preached to them in hell while he was dead for the three days thing. (or something like that)

 

There seem to be a lot of people here who don't know that much about Xian theology and beliefs...

[Mythra]

There seem to be a lot of people here who don't know that much about Xian theology and beliefs...

 

Oh I do so hope you weren't referring to moi.

 

For I'm pretty sure I have at least a vague concept of the general outline.

 

[Mythra]

Through a series of varying biblical gymnastics, there are several different "age of accountabilities".

 

There are ways to massage a host of passages to support age 12. And 13. And 20.

 

Or, we can take the strict Calvinist approach and just admit that babies go to hell. In which case, one must fall back on the adage - "I have to just trust God's judgment in the matter".

[white_raven23]

There seem to be a lot of people here who don't know that much about Xian theology and beliefs...

 

Only the christians themselves.

[R. S. Martin]

So, if I were in your shoes, I would think about whether my decision about God is based off of fact, leading to my decision.

 

She seems not to be responding to this thread anymore and in my book it's not okay for her to make statements like the above quote--not after all we've been through to do exactly what she's telling us to do. I'm calling her on it via pm. We'll see what happens.

 

Scream, yell, call God names. It doesn't matter. What will be will be and this life is the only one you have to make sure you're right.

 

And this alone should give you some indication of how sure we are. Sure enough that we are willing to bet eternity on it.

 

You're like a person who is trying to hand us a stack of $100 bills. Except we have already recognized that the money is counterfeit.

 

I would feel vindictive enough to send her that one via pm, too, except I didn't write it.

 

I did tell her that on a site like exC, her "joke" about monkeys breeding monkeys is offensive. That was paraphrasing gramps but it was to me she had said it.

 

In her profile she professes to want LOGICAL answers. Caps are her own. Yet what does she do when all her arguments are refuted? She leaves in a hissy-fit. That don't go over with me and I think she deserves being called on it. If you see fit, Mythra, I would encourage you to send your post to her via pm. Maybe it's not decent. I trust your judgment.

[Mythra]

If you see fit, Mythra, I would encourage you to send your post to her via pm. Maybe it's not decent. I trust your judgment.

 

Oh God. Don't trust my judgment.

 

I don't give a shit about Kat. Or her preaching.

 

Hell, I could stand in the middle of a hundred screaming christians telling me I was going to hell, and I'd just tell em to bite me.

 

Let em have their fun.

 

Joke will be on them when they breathe their last and they think they're getting ready to board a flight to the streets paved with gold. And all they'll get is flat-lined.

[ChibiQ]

To claim a subjective experience, or even just a strongly held opinion, as either 'fact' or 'truth' is basically a lie in party frock...

y halo thar, evolutionists.