Theological Kryptonite

[Onyx]

Probably no, Gramps. With all the tulips, you'd think it's pretty but it's a bed of barbs.

[Grandpa Harley]

I find the idea strangely pleasurable...

 

Really? There are professionals available who can replicate many of the same sensations....

 

But they're expensive.

 

Or so I'm told.

 

 

for the right amount of cash , I could be god? cool...

[Kat22]

Did the Native Americans and the people of India for thousands of years have "condemned consciences?" Seems to me that the only time they felt condemned was when the missionaries came over and told them they were doing evil and worshiping the wrong gods.

 

No matter who you are, or where you live, you have the law written on your heart. Why do you think people (even those who have never heard the Word) feel violated when someone steals from them? Or are angered, sometimes to the point of hate, when someone murders one of their loved ones? If someone is married and their spouse commits adultery, there is something that happens. They feel betrayed. Why? Because the laws are written on their hearts and something tells them that this act is wrong. People are merely made aware of the fact that they are actually LAWS when the Word of God is brought to them.

 

Why believe something you don't understand when there is no evidence it exists?

 

See that's the thing. There is evidence (that's for another thread), but faith means that you are willing to believe in something even when the evidence isn't air tight. Kind of like those who have faith in the Big Bang. Mathematics says that the BB is possible but even scientists do not agree on all the details. The theory has so many holes because they don't have all the information; it's still no more than a theory. Yet people still have faith that the BB must be the answer to how the world began.

 

For devout Christians who study the evidence of God, they can see that not all the information is there. Some Biblical stories are proven accurate and others still have pieces that have not been found; leaving questions that have not been answered. However, Christians who do not lose their trust in God do not a conditional faith. One that says they will believe as long as they have all the answers (which defeats the whole purpose of faith). They place their faith in the combination of enough facts being proven and the experience of taking a step of faith and seeing God show up. If one has never stepped out in faith, and watched God show up, then it is easy to have their faith fall apart when people slam them with biblical questions that have not yet been answered.

 

Well why not feel an urgency? According to fundamentalists, Christ gave a commandment to go into all the world and preach the gospel. They feel they must obey.

 

We should feel the urgency to obey God's commands. That urgency should come from a desire to do God's will, because we love Him, not through a lie promoting guilt should we choose not to obey.

 

You don't seem to realize that the whole thing is twisted, not just saying a person is responsible for someone going to hell. There is still hell, which I assume you believe in. That god would throw anyone into an eternal hell for anything they did or were in their short life here on earth can only be a product of a twisted human imagination. Why not start at the beginning and throw the whole thing out rather than picking out this one issue?

 

If you squash a bug, you have only hurt the bug and you might get a "Man! Why'd you do that?". If you kill a dog, your offense is against a helpless creature and you will be held accountable; maybe even spending some time in prison. If you murder a homeless person, your offense is against another human being and you are looking at some serious time. However, if you threaten the president, you are in a whole LOT of trouble. It is not the offense, that promotes the severity of the punishment, but WHO the offense is targeting. The punishment gets worse depending on who is offended, even if the act seems less.

 

When we lie, steal, cheat, murder... our offense is against an Eternal Almighty God.

 

Matthew 25: 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 

Christ says "whatever you did/did not do for one of the least of these, you did/did not do for me". If WE are offended, it is as if that offense was done directly to Him. Even if the offense is against you - one who does not even acknowledge Him - He counts it as an offense against Him. THAT is how personal our God is. More personal than even the most loving mother is to her child. When our child is hurt by someone else, how offended are we? I was molested as a child. When my mother found out, she felt just as violated as I was. When we rebel and sin, we are rejecting Christ... violating who He is and what He stands for. In violating the Son of God, we are violating God Himself.

 

Can I fully take in the concept of sin and God's punishment? No. My mortal understanding cannot grasp the mind of God. But I can say this. NO righteous judge would let a thief, murderer, child molester, liar, adulterer or any other offender go without punishment.

 

How would you feel if your child was molested and the sinner was taken to court and stood before the judge? They say "Yes, I molested that child and I admit it was wrong. But I ask you to forgive me and let me go". What if the judge said "well, you only did it once and you admitted your guilt, so you're free to leave."

 

How would you, as the parent of that molested child, feel about that judge?

 

ALL offenses, even the ones that only God Himself sees - such as hatred in our hearts - will be judged by God's standards, not man's. We judge our righteousness by human standards, which will always leave us falling short of the true severity of our sins.

 

But I will say that not fully understanding how He will judge us does leave doubts in my head at times. But then I remember how many times He came through for us when we were angry with Him for not doing things our way. He could have said "Well, fine. Forget you! If you are going to be that ungrateful, you can fend for yourselves." Instead, He has provided for us when He should have let us learn a hard lesson. He has shown us grace when all we did was yell at Him because we didn't understand why things seemed so hard. If He can be THAT forgiving and gracious, over such small things, how much more gracious will He be on the day of judgment?

 

Yes, I do believe in Hell. But I also believe that God is Just and Fair and will take all things into consideration before He passes that final sentence.

[RankStranger]

So you expect that most folks will recieve a sentence somewhere between the standard Christian concepts of 'heaven' and 'hell'?

[Mythra]

No matter who you are, or where you live, you have the law written on your heart.

 

I have news for you, Kat. Long before the bible was written, people hated to have their stuff stolen, and they REALLY took it personally when someone killed their mother. It didn't take someone putting it down on paper to make it a law.

 

Let me ask you. We can ignore all the silly biblical rules, like shellfish and trimming one's beard. Let's just talk about the Ten Commandments for a second. Since they aren't really ranked in terms of importance, I'd assume that they are all very important to Yahweh. What about to you, Kat?

 

If you heard someone say "goddammit" - would you put that on an equal basis as if you saw a murder committed?

 

If you saw someone mowing their lawn on a Saturday, would you consider that as egregious as someone committing armed robbery?

 

Just the fact that no one goes to jail for taking God's name in vain, or working on Saturday or wishing they had their neighbor's house shows that these "laws that are written on our hearts" are not given to us by God. Not only don't people go to jail for these things, not too many people are concerned about them at all. Christians included. Yet they were carved in STONE by the creator of the UNIVERSE. uh-huh.

 

The rules against stealing and murder have existed in the human race for thousands of years before anyone ever heard of yahweh.

[lemon]

For devout Christians who study the evidence of God, they can see that not all the information is there. Some Biblical stories are proven accurate and others still have pieces that have not been found; leaving questions that have not been answered. --Katt22

 

The problem is, most christians would not easily admit this. We are often led to believe that everything we need in the bible is present and to admit that some pieces are missing indicates a lack of divine authenticity.

 

However, Christians who do not lose their trust in God do not a conditional faith. One that says they will believe as long as they have all the answers (which defeats the whole purpose of faith). They place their faith in the combination of enough facts being proven and the experience of taking a step of faith and seeing God show up. If one has never stepped out in faith, and watched God show up, then it is easy to have their faith fall apart when people slam them with biblical questions that have not yet been answered.--Katt22

 

The problem is, many people have stepped out in faith and God didn't show up. Or, what appeared to be God showing up actually had a "natural" explanation. Oh I know, the person didn't have enough faith or it wasn't God's plan. Also, it isn't necessarily the unanswered questions that turn people away, sometimes it's what's clearly stated. Perhaps you could elaborate on what it means to step out in faith and for what are we having faith for. Reality as I see it is that we can "believe" all we like...what is going to be is going to be and no amount of faith will change that. So in your opinion, should one have faith that God will show up or should they have faith that God will help them to endure whatever comes their way?

[Onyx]

No matter who you are, or where you live, you have the law written on your heart. Why do you think people (even those who have never heard the Word) feel violated when someone steals from them? Or are angered, sometimes to the point of hate, when someone murders one of their loved ones? If someone is married and their spouse commits adultery, there is something that happens. They feel betrayed. Why? Because the laws are written on their hearts and something tells them that this act is wrong. People are merely made aware of the fact that they are actually LAWS when the Word of God is brought to them.

 

If God doesn't exist (and he does not in my opinion) the only offense from a teen stealing from a church is only to the priests who looks after the objects. This is what I see. If God exists and he sees that the teen was stealing, he has to appear and punish the teen in public to prove he exists. That would make a believer out of me.

 

See that's the thing. There is evidence (that's for another thread), but faith means that you are willing to believe in something even when the evidence isn't air tight. Kind of like those who have faith in the Big Bang. Mathematics says that the BB is possible but even scientists do not agree on all the details. The theory has so many holes because they don't have all the information; it's still no more than a theory. Yet people still have faith that the BB must be the answer to how the world began.

 

The Bible talks about talking snakes and raising the people from the dead and both of them hasn't ever been proved. Big Bang is different. If it is proven then it is true. If it is not, then it is replaced by a new theory. Science goes on even if it is proven wrong on one thing and right on another. Also scientists are far honest in admitting their mistakes, though there are exceptions. Not many creationists or theologians can say they were wrong about it all.

 

For devout Christians who study the evidence of God, they can see that not all the information is there. Some Biblical stories are proven accurate and others still have pieces that have not been found; leaving questions that have not been answered. However, Christians who do not lose their trust in God do not a conditional faith. One that says they will believe as long as they have all the answers (which defeats the whole purpose of faith). They place their faith in the combination of enough facts being proven and the experience of taking a step of faith and seeing God show up. If one has never stepped out in faith, and watched God show up, then it is easy to have their faith fall apart when people slam them with biblical questions that have not yet been answered.

 

You think we read the Bible only to say it was boring? (Well it is!) We did the work and we asked the right questions only to see it contradicted itself on many issues and not enough proof for creation or whatever.

 

We should feel the urgency to obey God's commands. That urgency should come from a desire to do God's will, because we love Him, not through a lie promoting guilt should we choose not to obey.

 

So go evangelise to these Muslims in Afghanistan!

 

When we lie, steal, cheat, murder... our offense is against an Eternal Almighty God.

 

Christ says "whatever you did/did not do for one of the least of these, you did/did not do for me". If WE are offended, it is as if that offense was done directly to Him. Even if the offense is against you - one who does not even acknowledge Him - He counts it as an offense against Him. THAT is how personal our God is. More personal than even the most loving mother is to her child. When our child is hurt by someone else, how offended are we? I was molested as a child. When my mother found out, she felt just as violated as I was. When we rebel and sin, we are rejecting Christ... violating who He is and what He stands for. In violating the Son of God, we are violating God Himself.

 

Then this is further proof God is a construct of man, not God apart of man. A good man and woman would feel the same but unlike God, we will never punish people for eternality.

 

Can I fully take in the concept of sin and God's punishment? No. My mortal understanding cannot grasp the mind of God. But I can say this. NO righteous judge would let a thief, murderer, child molester, liar, adulterer or any other offender go without punishment.

 

If God is all knowing, all powerful and all good then he should give you morals to understand why you should do it and then act on these morals.

 

ALL offenses, even the ones that only God Himself sees - such as hatred in our hearts - will be judged by God's standards, not man's. We judge our righteousness by human standards, which will always leave us falling short of the true severity of our sins.

 

He judges us so why we shouldn't judge him? A famous Roman quote goes like this "Who watches the Watchmen?" We should judge God on how he performs. If he does his job properly, we wouldn't have cause to judge him back. But he didn't, he let Devil destroy us all and kill entire towns.

So our judgement of him is if he exists, that he does a piss poor or negligent job in preventing evil.

 

But I will say that not fully understanding how He will judge us does leave doubts in my head at times. But then I remember how many times He came through for us when we were angry with Him for not doing things our way. He could have said "Well, fine. Forget you! If you are going to be that ungrateful, you can fend for yourselves." Instead, He has provided for us when He should have let us learn a hard lesson. He has shown us grace when all we did was yell at Him because we didn't understand why things seemed so hard. If He can be THAT forgiving and gracious, over such small things, how much more gracious will He be on the day of judgment?

 

Well if he exists, he just did that. He left us to fend for ourselves. He just don't care about us if he is out there. So, no he is not a good god if it was the case.

 

Yes, I do believe in Hell. But I also believe that God is Just and Fair and will take all things into consideration before He passes that final sentence.

 

Irony alert! Irony Alert! According to Bible, God will throw billions of innocent people into hell even babies, disableds and skeptics who have never gotten a speeding fine in their life. How is that fair?

[RankStranger]

Irony alert! Irony Alert! According to Bible, God will throw billions of innocent people into hell even babies, disableds and skeptics who have never gotten a speeding fine in their life. How is that humane?

 

I think she's saying that she doesn't believe that God will neccesarily do that (i.e. she isn't taking the bible literally). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Onyx]

The Bible says in NT that it will uphold the OT laws till the end of the world (or Jesus's coming.) So if you wear clothes made of wool and nylon, eat shellfish, fuck a gay man on your mother's bed or let your vagina bleed, you will go to hell.

So if God takes all into account and he has to adhere to his Holy Book, he has to take your acts and judge accordingly to his thoughts of punishments. His proposed punishment is eternal hell. But these acts are harmless and are not morally detrimental so they doesn't merit eternal hell as a punishment. To merit eternal hell is to harm a person forever but no humans can do an eternal sin. It is not possible. So why are God so unfair on people if he know these persons doesn't deserve this horrible sadistic punishment?

 

Iskerbibel, I'm acting as I'm taking Bible literally (As translated by King James Bible guys and almost two thousands of years of Catholic or early Christian doctrine borrowed from Hellenic conceptions of this same concept) Hell is a terroristic doctrine no matter how much you sugar-coat it.

 

I know she is not taking it literally. Almost nothing in Bible is literal but I'm trying to show that if you take the bible literally which people to seem to do nowadays, it seems looney and stupid. The reason people like her make their beliefs nice to all who read them is that their innate sense of compassion takes over their thoughts on hell and tries to make it palatable. This is more commendable than The Biblical God they are worshipping. If God commanded the KJV people to add in Hell instead of the original meanings as expressed by 'Gehanna' and 'Tartarus' which in itself is a leftover from Greco-Roman religious thoughts, he is a true bastard.

 

Hope my explanation is not in vain, it's that I'm so horrified by this malicious doctrine, I cannot in good sense not to speak out. So many minds are destroyed by this doctrine. What misanthropy are there in Hell and the 'I am but rags' sentiment!

[Grandpa Harley]

Nice to see she has plenty of gibberish to support her world view... Having spent a lot of time visiting someone who was only conscious if you applied the Glasgow coma scale, and being a psychiatric patient (for a 'major depressive episode') myself, I've met a lot of people who have internally logical delusions, and can, by mental Rorschachery, add new supporting 'facts' to their patchwork quilt of insanity... Putting my clinical head on, Kat22 and ChibiQ are both interesting case studies... they seem to be high functioning paranoids, possibly with mild epilepsy, and a low level form of schizophrenia (the 'voices' that tell them things, the sense of 'another presence' etc...). Usually, that collection of symptoms places the patient on the 'sociopathic/psychopathic' personality scale... as evidenced by their insistence that they are wholly correct and only they have a grasp of the truth. TBH, I can see why both need the God delusion, since it's the only thing that stops them killing people because it's fun...

[Deva]

No matter who you are, or where you live, you have the law written on your heart. Why do you think people (even those who have never heard the Word) feel violated when someone steals from them? Or are angered, sometimes to the point of hate, when someone murders one of their loved ones? If someone is married and their spouse commits adultery, there is something that happens. They feel betrayed. Why? Because the laws are written on their hearts and something tells them that this act is wrong. People are merely made aware of the fact that they are actually LAWS when the Word of God is brought to them.

 

Wrong. In order to live in a society and to survive, people early on realized that certain behavior contributed to achieving that goal, and other kinds of behavior did not. That is all. It has nothing to do with the Bible or its god. And by the way, some of these LAWS were already written down by some of these people before the Bible arrived. That another book arrived that had the same sort of Laws written down is not so remarkable. Books are all written by people.

 

There is evidence (that's for another thread), but faith means that you are willing to believe in something even when the evidence isn't air tight. Kind of like those who have faith in the Big Bang. Mathematics says that the BB is possible but even scientists do not agree on all the details. The theory has so many holes because they don't have all the information; it's still no more than a theory. Yet people still have faith that the BB must be the answer to how the world began.

 

There is no evidence for the existence of Bible god or hell. You have a major deficiency in your science education. The Big Bang is a scientific theory. It is not "Just A Theory". There is actual detectable, physical evidence to support it. Science does not deal in absolutes true for all time---that is the realm of Bible god--it is subject to revision as new data and facts come to light.

 

Some Biblical stories are proven accurate...

 

Accurate in what way and how? Show us the proof.

 

One that says they will believe as long as they have all the answers (which defeats the whole purpose of faith). They place their faith in the combination of enough facts being proven and the experience of taking a step of faith and seeing God show up. If one has never stepped out in faith, and watched God show up, then it is easy to have their faith fall apart when people slam them with biblical questions that have not yet been answered.

 

So I guess this means we don't need proof like a scientific theory, all we need is faith. OK you are on firmer ground here. We simply answer that we don't have faith because we can't believe the unbelievable. How's that?

 

When we lie, steal, cheat, murder... our offense is against an Eternal Almighty God.

 

No. If I steal from my neighbor, the offense is against my neighbor. If my offense were against God, and he were a God of justice, wouldn't I be punished immediatly? If not, how is it justice? Why are there countless thieves and cheaters and worse running around without punishment? And by the way, don't Christians steal and cheat? Where is the justice? Oh, that's right-- its hell. Very satisfactory. Something invisible and unprovable that happens after death, but only to nonchristians, right?

 

I will say that God must be mighty offended to throw someone into hell for eternity for the offenses of a lifespan of possibly 100 years. Real justice there, wouldn't you say? How can this punishment possibly fit the crime comitted, even mass murder? How is it possible for us to be so offensive to God? Where did the offense originate? Doesn't that make God seem very small and petty that he is so offended?

[SWIM]

No matter who you are, or where you live, you have the law written on your heart.

 

I have news for you, Kat. Long before the bible was written, people hated to have their stuff stolen, and they REALLY took it personally when someone killed their mother. It didn't take someone putting it down on paper to make it a law.

 

 

Very well said Mythra! Xtians like to think "good social common sense" is like some complicated mystical law or something, they try to "own" it, and "sell" it as part of the package. As if you can't be good own your own or something...

[Mythra]

 

Thanks, Michael.

 

And another thing, Kat. Have you READ your bible? Sorry to be condescending, but - really.

 

How on earth can people claim that Yahweh is the source of morality - if they have actually READ their bibles.

 

The god who says "thou shalt not murder" is the instigator and supporter (if one were to believe all of the accounts in the OT) of incredible atrocities. Stuff that is unspeakably evil. No use getting into particulars. I know you have read them. And, if you have anything resembling a conscience, these stories trouble you.

 

I just don't understand how christians can say that this god is the source of our morality - being utterly immoral himself.

 

Even when Jesus comes on to the scene - what does he bring with him? Eternal suffering - that can only be avoided by following one or more of his completely inconsistent formulas regarding salvation.

 

Sorry - but I know a whole bunch of non-religious folk who are way more moral than God.

 

In fact, I can't think of one who isn't.

[Grandpa Harley]

As to forgiveness... Ananais and Sapphia (Acts 5) - struck dead over money THEY'D EARNED!!!!

[Mythra]

As to forgiveness... Ananais and Sapphia (Acts 5) - struck dead over money THEY'D EARNED!!!!

 

Indeed. And what is God given for this by his faithful throng? A complete pass.

 

No problems here. Ananias and Sapphira shouldn't have lied to the Holy Spirit. God was justified.

 

So, one shouldn't commit murder.

 

Unless it's justified.

 

Evidently.

[Kat22]

So you expect that most folks will recieve a sentence somewhere between the standard Christian concepts of 'heaven' and 'hell'?

 

I honestly don't know how it will go. All I for sure is that hell is real and God will not take it lightly. He will take everything into consideration before He passes that final judgement.

[Grandpa Harley]

So, God's a vindictive, grudge bearing bastard... and you follow him why?

[Kat22]

No matter who you are, or where you live, you have the law written on your heart.

 

I have news for you, Kat. Long before the bible was written, people hated to have their stuff stolen, and they REALLY took it personally when someone killed their mother. It didn't take someone putting it down on paper to make it a law.

 

It's not about it being written on paper. God had the laws in place from the beginning of time itself.

 

Let me ask you. We can ignore all the silly biblical rules, like shellfish and trimming one's beard. Let's just talk about the Ten Commandments for a second. Since they aren't really ranked in terms of importance, I'd assume that they are all very important to Yahweh. What about to you, Kat?

 

No. I have been born and raised learning the human scale of things. I will never get to the point where one sin is the same as all the rest. At least not in this life.

 

If you heard someone say "goddammit" - would you put that on an equal basis as if you saw a murder committed?

 

If you saw someone mowing their lawn on a Saturday, would you consider that as egregious as someone committing armed robbery?

 

Just the fact that no one goes to jail for taking God's name in vain, or working on Saturday or wishing they had their neighbor's house shows that these "laws that are written on our hearts" are not given to us by God. Not only don't people go to jail for these things, not too many people are concerned about them at all. Christians included. Yet they were carved in STONE by the creator of the UNIVERSE. uh-huh.

 

The rules against stealing and murder have existed in the human race for thousands of years before anyone ever heard of yahweh.

 

As I mentioned above, God had these laws designed before time itself. Before anything was ever written or spoken.

 

And I did not say that the equal severity of each law is written on our hearts. I said that they are there. If we ignore them long enough, they will appear as if they are of no concern. But it doesn't change the fact that they are written on our hearts.

 

Take, for instance, your example of blasphemy. Why would someone use that word? How would they use it? Is it when they are happy and they are expressing joy and blessings? No. They are using it as a curse. A swear word. It is the subconscious rebelling against God.

 

As for working on Saturday. That one is so easily tossed aside, as on the bottom of the severity scale, that we quickly become numb to it's importance. Yet still, all of society feels the need for at least ONE day off every week. Why is that? Maybe because God knew we would need the rest and placed it on our HEARTS to desire the same thing.

[Deva]

Take, for instance, your example of blasphemy. Why would someone use that word? How would they use it? Is it when they are happy and they are expressing joy and blessings? No. They are using it as a curse. A swear word. It is the subconscious rebelling against God.

 

Ridiculous. Don't we say cuss words just because things aren't going quite right at that moment? Or maybe we hear something so stupid (like the above) that no other word seems appropriate. 99.9% of people using cuss words aren't thinking AT ALL about your God, on any level.

 

I take it that you buy the whole Adam/Eve story of the Fall, don't you? Otherwise, what is your explanation of the so-called inborn type rebellion against God?

 

By the way, if we are in rebellion, it is appropriate in view of the unjust nature of your God's punishments.

[Kat22]

We are often led to believe that everything we need in the bible is present and to admit that some pieces are missing indicates a lack of divine authenticity.

 

The entire Bible is truly inspired by God. However, all the proof is not available to verify every account within the bible text.

 

The problem is, many people have stepped out in faith and God didn't show up. Or, what appeared to be God showing up actually had a "natural" explanation. Oh I know, the person didn't have enough faith or it wasn't God's plan.

 

Lack of faith is very rarely the issue. There have been many times when my husband and I have doubted and God still showed up. However, He often uses natural means to meet our needs. It's not in the "supernaturalness" that makes it from God. It's the fact that we step out and "all things work out for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose". Coincidence after coincidence, which piles up to an impossible likelihood, shows God's hand bringing all things together.

 

As for it not beings God's plan. Well, that happens to all of us sometimes. We think we know what He wants us to do but it is all a learning process. I have fumbled many times only to realize that I was following my own plans and HOPING it was God's. Or I was sure I heard Him right but it turned out not to be from Him. However, the closer I get to God, the less that happens. I find myself mistaking something else for Go's will less and less. But the funny thing is... God STILL shows up! Even when I misunderstood and went the wrong way. He doesn't bless my misunderstood ventures. But He keeps me afloat as He guides me back.

 

Also, it isn't necessarily the unanswered questions that turn people away, sometimes it's what's clearly stated. Perhaps you could elaborate on what it means to step out in faith and for what are we having faith for. Reality as I see it is that we can "believe" all we like...what is going to be is going to be and no amount of faith will change that. So in your opinion, should one have faith that God will show up or should they have faith that God will help them to endure whatever comes their way?

 

Both.

 

"Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. He will never let the righteous fall." Psalm 55:22

Original word for "fall": mut or mowt

Expanded definition from lexicon:to totter, shake, slip

(Qal) to totter, shake, slip

(Niphal) to be shaken, be moved, be overthrown

(Hiphil) to dislodge, let fall, drop

(Hithpael) to be greatly shaken

 

He won't take the trials from me but He will show up and make sure I am not shaken or moved from my faith. As long as I cast my cares upon Him.

 

"These things I say to you the IN ME you might have peace. In this world you WILL have troubles. But be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33

 

Original word for "overcome": nikaO or nika/w

Expanded definition from lexicon: to conquer

to carry off the victory, come off victorious

of Christ, victorious over all His foes

of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions

when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one's cause

 

Christ gave us hope when He told us He has already overcome!

 

So, sometimes God will deliver us and sometimes He will help us endure. Whatever is best for our growth and gives us the best chance to be with Him again after this life is over. But, either way, He will never leave us nor forsake us.

[Grandpa Harley]

Numbnuts has been at the crack pipe again...

[Deva]

Coincidence after coincidence, which piles up to an impossible likelihood, shows God's hand bringing all things together.

 

Yeah, and normal people would just call it "coincidence," and leave it at that.

 

He often uses natural means to meet our needs.

 

Give us an example of an unnatural means, other than your "coincidence."

 

As for it not beings God's plan. Well, that happens to all of us sometimes. We think we know what He wants us to do but it is all a learning process. I have fumbled many times only to realize that I was following my own plans and HOPING it was God's. Or I was sure I heard Him right but it turned out not to be from Him. However, the closer I get to God, the less that happens. I find myself mistaking something else for Go's will less and less. But the funny thing is... God STILL shows up! Even when I misunderstood and went the wrong way. He doesn't bless my misunderstood ventures. But He keeps me afloat as He guides me back.

 

Jeeez you have a complicated life! Must be hard to figure out what is god's will and what isn't.

 

Bible verses don't work to demonstrate your point. We have already read it. It isn't convincing.

[lemon]

As for it not beings God's plan. Well, that happens to all of us sometimes. We think we know what He wants us to do but it is all a learning process. I have fumbled many times only to realize that I was following my own plans and HOPING it was God's. Or I was sure I heard Him right but it turned out not to be from Him. However, the closer I get to God, the less that happens. I find myself mistaking something else for Go's will less and less. But the funny thing is... God STILL shows up! Even when I misunderstood and went the wrong way. He doesn't bless my misunderstood ventures. But He keeps me afloat as He guides me back.--Katt22

 

One thing I appreciate is that fact that you are speaking for yourself instead of dogmatically telling everyone this is what they should believe. Many christians believe that they are hearing from God and at times are mistaken. But John chapter 10 goes into the issue of the sheep knowing his voice. The passage doesn't leave room for mistakes...it says affirmatively that the sheep "know" his voice and the voice of another they will not follow. So if someone was "sure they heard from God" and only to be mistaken, are they of the sheep according to that verse (not speaking of someone who just did what they wanted and hoped it was God)? Or could this be one of the passages where there is more than meets the eye?

[Mythra]

It's not about it being written on paper. God had the laws in place from the beginning of time itself.

 

And you think that's true? I'm not asking do you believe that you believe it's true.

 

Do you think it's true. Do you think that if God hadn't written these laws from the beginning of time, no one would mind having their stuff stolen, and they'd sing and dance when their child was murdered.

 

You're much too intelligent to think such nonsense, Kat.

[lemon]

As for it not beings God's plan. Well, that happens to all of us sometimes. We think we know what He wants us to do but it is all a learning process. I have fumbled many times only to realize that I was following my own plans and HOPING it was God's. Or I was sure I heard Him right but it turned out not to be from Him. However, the closer I get to God, the less that happens. I find myself mistaking something else for Go's will less and less. But the funny thing is... God STILL shows up! Even when I misunderstood and went the wrong way. He doesn't bless my misunderstood ventures. But He keeps me afloat as He guides me back.Katt22

 

Jeeez you have a complicated life! Must be hard to figure out what is god's will and what isn't.

 

Bible verses don't work to demonstrate your point. We have already read it. It isn't convincing.--Devalight

 

 

The fact that there are some things not specifically spelled out in the bible makes it even more complicated. For example, a Christian might be wondering if taking a certain job over another one is God's will. Nothing in the bible says "It is my will for you to work at company A." I'm not going to worry about the will of a deity if the issue is not clearly spelled out in a holy book. As a christian, finding God's will regarding specifics was a big issue. As an exchristian, it is an issue no more and I am finally at peace. I'm just going to live life and learn from the successes and failures.