What God " Really " Meant

[R. S. Martin]

Christians are always haggling about what God "really" meant by what he said in the bible. Most humans find it a major challenge simply to understand each other. How, then, can they presume to understand God whose thoughts--according to the Bible--are so much higher than human thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth? The Bible says God's ways are past finding out. Yet Christians claim to know something was God's will--or was not God's will. How, I ask, can any human presume to make such a statement?

 

*SSSHHHHHHH* but I have a sneaking suspicion that statement was stuck in there because people were saying "That makes no sense!" or "What does that mean?" Well, it wasn't okay to say that to a psalmist or prophet who thought he was inspired by God so he had to say something official-sounding like that.

 

Any thoughts?

[R. S. Martin]

I know, I said this in a post on the thread about the child who died because the parents just prayed but I decided to also post it here in case people wanted to discuss it in more depth. It's one of those questions I wasn't allowed to ask where I came from and I suspect lots of others weren't allowed, either, on pain of hell. I suspect forbidden questions were one big reason for deconversions. If Christianity had provided logical answers we would not have had to seek outside religion for answers. For those of us not endowed with the gift of faith, there was little choice, given the skimpy diet offered by our churches.

[Kratos]

I do believe that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are past finding out on our own with just our natural minds. It is like the rock of revelation on which the church is built. When asked who the disciples believed that Jesus was, Peter proclaimed the He was the Christ and the Son of the Living God.

 

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven. Revelation knowledge are those unexpected glimpses into who God is and how He thinks. We cannot know them unless He comes down to our level and reveals them to us heart to heart.

 

I know most will not receive this, but it is how I see it and have experienced it.

 

John

[Manditag in AK]

I have that problem too. Not only is this ONE book the only 100% just right TOTAL and complete epiphany about who God really is, who itself states that god is incomprehensible, but it also says you should seek god's will in all things. How are we supposed to have any clue if we're even getting it right? Both statements can't be true.

 

THAT was probably my big argument against the bible, character flaws with god and paradoxes like that that just don't make any sense. Too many times I would just add my two and two and who knows where I'd end up.

 

So finally I gave up.

[Manditag in AK]

Wow John, that was actually pretty neat. we were typing at the same time but I got interrupted and when the main screen loaded yours was in front of mine. (does that make me some sort of nerd? )

 

Until more recently than many, I agreed with much of what you say. however, how compatible is the concept of an all-powerful, all-loving deity who is not willing that any should perish choose to come down and reveal himself to so few?

 

I understand where you are going with this, and I will agree with that. God may be much larger than us, and impossible to comprehend as a whole, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to understand ANYTHING of God. I have one question for you: Do genuine revelations from God have to specifically say 'jesus'? can it just be 'love with all you are' and leave Jesus out? didn't jesus say you could reject him or god and still go to heaven? What do you think that says about divine revelation?

Also, on what basis do you think it's possible to determine if a revelation is really from God or just coming from the self or other, more negative sources?

[Legion]

John (Kratos), do you agree with this statement? -----> If there were no God there would still be mystery.

[Neon Genesis]

I do believe that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are past finding out on our own with just our natural minds. It is like the rock of revelation on which the church is built.

Expect you apparently think you are high enough to understand what God's ways are towards gays and uppity women, you liar. If you think God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, why do you claim you know what God thinks about gays and uppity women? You are the perfect example of what kind of hypocritical Christian Ruby is talking about in this thread, so don't you dare think you are morally superior to all other Christians.

 

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven. Revelation knowledge are those unexpected glimpses into who God is and how He thinks. We cannot know them unless He comes down to our level and reveals them to us heart to heart.

 

 

 

John

So, I guess that means only you can understand God's will then since you claim God magically revealed himself to you? Again, you are lying through your teeth to try and show off your Christian supremacy and you know it.

[hereticzero]

Christians thump themselves on the chest about being right. By their reasoning, Jesus is God. If you know Jesus, then you know the mind of God since Jesus is a reflection of God then he must also have his mind--this argument loses ground the closer Jesus gets to crucifixian time. Most of what Christians believe about their babbles is just wishful thinking.

[R. S. Martin]

Wow! prime example falls for bait better than "prayed for." Fellow exxies call him on it ON THE SPOT. Let's watch him squirm and wriggle. This promises to be entertaining. I could feed him a few bible verses to defend his position but I think I'll let him find them himself at this point. There's sure to be others to rip the argument right down. The Bible is S-O-O-O-O versatile.

[hereticzero]

... So, I guess that means only you can understand God's will then since you claim God magically revealed himself to you? ...

It worked for the false apostle Paul, he claimed Jesus told him everything he needed to know in a three second vision while Jesus' own disciples spent around three YEARS receiving his instruction. Paul spent much of his ministry bad-mouthing and ridiculing the other apostles who were only doing what Jesus had told them to do, according to scriptures.

[R. S. Martin]

Christians thump themselves on the chest about being right. By their reasoning, Jesus is God. If you know Jesus, then you know the mind of God since Jesus is a reflection of God then he must also have his mind--this argument loses ground the closer Jesus gets to crucifixian time.

 

But the "crucifixion time" is OVER for another whole long year. Christ is RISEN! Glory halleluja jubilee! Brother Jeff has said so himself, so it must be true.

 

Most of what Christians believe about their babbles is just wishful thinking.

 

I love that. More evidence of bibliolotry--worship/idolotry of the book rather than the god who supposedly wrote it.

 

Of course, they daren't let such "whispers of the devil" enter their minds because it might cause them to start thinking and doubting the almighty Faith!

[florduh]

The Bible as it exists today is a cleverly crafted no-win for the believer. All the misinformation, contradictions, and illogic is covered by the self-serving verses that proclaim if we question or don't understand this crap, we as mere mortals can't know the mind of our great god. What a perfect vehicle to control a society.

 

There are so many problems with that collection of writings I kick myself for ever thinking it made sense, and if it didn't, it was my fault. The Bible is ancient mythology, and plagiarized at that. It makes outrageous claims and is not supported by recorded history or outside sources. It is a closed system of thought that makes itself immune to scrutiny, if you are a believer hanging on to your faith.

 

Essentially, the Bible is bullshit. We need to get over it and the Koran (Qur'an, whateverthefuck) and try to advance our civilization.

 

Rant over.

 

- Chris

[sojourner]

Hi Ruby,

 

It has taken me years to get where I am now and my views have changed so much over these years that I have no idea where I will be next year or the one after that. I used to think I absolutely knew who God was and I thought I could explain Him and His ways by way of a book, the man/God Jesus and my own experience and by parroting all Id been told by others. I was very sure of myself. However, Ive come to the place where I still believe there is a God but concede that He is beyond knowing and all we say we know or understand are simply peeks into our own understandings rather than truly God. I cannot explain Him nor can I say absolutely that I even barely understand Him. Why then do I still believe He exists? I can only say that deep inside there is still a place where that belief resides. Yet, I have nothing to say to anyone that I think could even come close to describing God but only my own masks I put on Him. To me God is pure mystery! All the religious writings are mans desires to try and frame God and explain God to themselves, their cultures and others.

 

I am very very comfortable now with the mystery of God and unknowing rather than knowing, of not being able to explain God, nor being able to explain why I even believe He exists.

 

So, Ive quit haggling over what God really meant by this or that. What I do feel speaks to me at times when I read the bible is subjective and not absolute and for me.

 

sojourner

[Jubilant]

I do believe that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are past finding out on our own with just our natural minds.

 

Hmmmmm...yet most Christians will tell you that God's Word, a.k.a. the Bible, has all the answers. Does it have ALL the answers or does it not? Or does it only hold "ALL" the answers to those seeking "in the spirit"? If seeking answers "in the Spirit" enables one to have ALL the answers....then why is it so many "Spirit-filled" Christians STILL cannot agree on what the Bible "really" says?

 

Oh, I just noticed that you have "experience" because you came to the way YOU THINK God wants you to come to Him in order to KNOW what HIS thoughts are...LMAO Another Christian who says that they have "experienced" the Grace of God personally. ;-)

[par4dcourse]

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven.

But he'll gladly burn your ass for all eternity if you get it wrong. So which one of the 10,000 or so versions of xtianity have it right? Remember, get it right or your ass is grass, flaming grass.

[Deva]

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven. Revelation knowledge are those unexpected glimpses into who God is and how He thinks. We cannot know them unless He comes down to our level and reveals them to us heart to heart.

 

God doesn't step down the truth to "our level." The truth is the unadulterated truth. That you say "our level" shows that you buy into the whole "original sin ruined humans therefore they can't get it" bullshit.

 

How do you know that these "unexpected glimpses" are coming from God and not your own mind?

 

This is foolish.

[R. S. Martin]

How do you know that these "unexpected glimpses" are coming from God and not your own mind?

 

Oh that's easy. If it agrees with the Bible is has to be from God.

 

Just don't remind him that the bible can be read any which way he happens to want to. Don't suggest to him that there's a hermeneutic involved or--horror of horrors!--an interpretation!!!!

LOL

 

At one point I was asked by an ordained man my own age (somehow I think if he's my own age he can't be all that much smarter than me no matter that he's ordained and I'm apostate) if I believe that the Bible is the inspired infallible inerrant Word of God. I was still Christian but no longer in his church.

 

I had never heard that line before but I supposed it was if interpreted the right way.

 

He responded that it was not an interpretation--it was what the Bible said!

 

This was before I had taken any theology whatsoever. But in the neighbourhood where I grew up there were so many different kinds of Mennonites all dressing and living almost exactly the same but all going to different churches and all professing to having the CORRECT UNDERSTANDING of the Bible. Dad would come home and talk about the lively discussions he had with the other men. There was no way I could grow up without realizing that there were quite a number of ways of interpreting the Bible. If I didn't want to believe that all our neighbours were going to hell, I had to conclude that God didn't care which church people went to, or exactly which way they interpreted this or that verse of the Bible.

 

But to say that the Bible was "inerrant and infallible"... In light of all the different understandings the various denominations had....I supposed if one gave careful thought to it, one could put it together in one harmonious whole. But there was no way I could make an unqualified blanket statement.

 

I let him be sarcastic. I knew there was no way I could explain these subtle nuances to a man who was feeling defensive like that.

 

All this was before I knew that it was permissible to admit the inconsistencies. I had trained my mind not to see or notice the inconsistencies, to explain them away, like my mother had taught me since I was a child. Even so, "infallible and inerrant"--that was strong language. I had not heard it before and I could not endorse it.

[R. S. Martin]

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven.

But he'll gladly burn your ass for all eternity if you get it wrong. So which one of the 10,000 or so versions of xtianity have it right? Remember, get it right or your ass is grass, flaming grass.

 

Par, I don't want to be a "wet blanket" or anything, but it's more like 30,000--not just a measly 10,000. I've actually seen the number 34 thousand on these forums. Par, you have a VERY_STRONG case.

 

As if 30 thousand variations of Christianity were not enough, there's three variations of the Abrahamic God--there's the Judaic version, the Christian version, and the Muslim version. However, be absolutely certain of this indisputable fact for time and eternity: There is only ONE god.

 

If you get that one fact wrong, you will burn for eternity. As stated, in the Abrahamic religions alone there are three versions all of which are the Only True God, and getting it wrong is going to cost you majorly for eternity. However, in the Christian religion alone there are three persons in the godhead; they are all one but they are three in number. If you have any questions about that or in any way doubt that statement, you are looking at an eternity in hell.

 

For your information, there are other very powerful gods. Some of them, such as Zeus, were thought to have been dead for nearly fifteen centuries but just the other day I saw someone taking an oath in his name. Then there are others, such as Thor and Odin, thought to be of more recent demise, who have reappeared and whose followers are reorganizing themselves. Jesus of Christianity is thought to be powerful because he was dead for three days and came back to life; these gods were dead for three centuries at the very least, and have come back to life. They must be powerful indeed.

 

And then there are all the gods of the Hindus. I have heard that they are very exacting. Admittedly, I don't know them at all and what I read was probably written by Christians meant to provoke readers to the mission field. Come to think of it, the terrors that article can cause are not as far-reaching as the nightmares and flashbacks caused by the "love" of my own people and their god's hell.

 

So yeah, it's really, Really, REALLY important to get it right what God "really" meant. And to be sure you're listening to the RIGHT GOD!

 

But this is the ONLY information you are ever going to get re who exactly is the one and only true god.

 

All it matters is that you (and I) will burn for eternity if we get it wrong.

 

Oh, I should add, it may be that the one true god has not been mentioned here but we will never know for sure. This does not change the conditions of the contract.

 

DISCLAIMER: Hopefully this is so ridiculous that anyone can see through the sham.

[Deva]

How do you know that these "unexpected glimpses" are coming from God and not your own mind?

 

Oh that's easy. If it agrees with the Bible is has to be from God.

 

Just don't remind him that the bible can be read any which way he happens to want to. Don't suggest to him that there's a hermeneutic involved or--horror of horrors!--an interpretation!!!!

 

 

In a Christian marriage the proper interpretation comes from the husband. If you are a single woman, it comes from the pastor. In any event any man in the family is the spritual head of the family. Isn't that right, Kratos?

[Neon Genesis]

Par, I don't want to be a "wet blanket" or anything, but it's more like 30,000--not just a measly 10,000. I've actually seen the number 34 thousand on these forums. Par, you have a VERY_STRONG case.

I knew there were a lot of variations of Christian beliefs out there but I had no idea there were that many. It kind of makes Pascal Wager's seem even more absurd than it already is. Is this even not counting the numerous CINOs who don't belong to any Christian sect but instead create their own private belief system that they think is true? So, pretending that there is a God, to put this into perspective, Kratos essentially wants us to bet our immortal soul on on a risk that his belief system is correct up against 30,000 other Christian beliefs and hope that we got the right one when none of these Christians, not even Kratos, can prove that God even exists? I hope this all makes Kratos' beliefs feel really small, but I probably shouldn't be too optimistic.

[Antlerman]

Christians are always haggling about what God "really" meant by what he said in the bible. Most humans find it a major challenge simply to understand each other. How, then, can they presume to understand God whose thoughts--according to the Bible--are so much higher than human thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth? The Bible says God's ways are past finding out. Yet Christians claim to know something was God's will--or was not God's will. How, I ask, can any human presume to make such a statement?

If they really want to attempt to understand what "God" meant, they need to try to understand what the writers of what "God" said meant when they wrote it. What did that person perceive and place into the mouth of "God"? That's the key.

 

God is a human expression. They can couch it all in cloud-language, i.e., sky beings, but it's still an expression of something that pertained to them at that time, under those circumstances, and within that context. In the midst of all that, was a human being with human anxieties. Those were expressed in the language of Divinity as an extension of themselves. So to understand what God meant, is to understand the humanity in the midst of circumstance. God is human.

[R. S. Martin]

Par, I don't want to be a "wet blanket" or anything, but it's more like 30,000--not just a measly 10,000. I've actually seen the number 34 thousand on these forums. Par, you have a VERY_STRONG case.

I knew there were a lot of variations of Christian beliefs out there but I had no idea there were that many. It kind of makes Pascal Wager's seem even more absurd than it already is. Is this even not counting the numerous CINOs who don't belong to any Christian sect but instead create their own private belief system that they think is true? So, pretending that there is a God, to put this into perspective, Kratos essentially wants us to bet our immortal soul on on a risk that his belief system is correct up against 30,000 other Christian beliefs and hope that we got the right one when none of these Christians, not even Kratos, can prove that God even exists? I hope this all makes Kratos' beliefs feel really small, but I probably shouldn't be too optimistic.

 

 

Neon, I have NO IDEA where the number comes from or what it's based on. Feels kind of irresponsible of me to be using it, now that I think about it. All I know is that it's been used a lot on these forums. Also, I mentioned it to my prof and he seemed to consider it credible. I highly doubt that it includes individuals who do not belong to some kind of sect. Of course, we would have to define sect. For example, if a dozen people gather in a home for worship on a regular basis, does that count as a sect? If all but one of those people belong to one family, are they still a sect? My parents had eleven children, which made thirteen family members in our immediate family before inlaws, but we belonged to a larger faith community; thus our immediate family was not a sect in itself. Some families are larger than that and hold to their own unique religious belief and/or worship style. Are they a sect?

 

Then there are groups that are collections of about a dozen individuals who gather for prayer, worship, etc. and they are not related in any way except a common belief system. Surely these could be considered a sect. Yet how do they differ from the large family above that also has its own unique belief system and sets aside a special time in which members do the same activities on a regular basis? These are the kinds of questions sociologists of religion grapple with.

 

But does that number 30,000 sects include groups as tiny as 12 members? I have no idea. If anyone happens to know where that statistic comes from I would be interested to know it, too. Thank you.

[Legion]

God is human.

Damn Antlerman, I still cringe a bit when I hear you say that man. It seems so new agey to me. I would say God is often a human projection or something. I mean damn. Saying "we are God" sounds so arrogant to me.

[Kuroikaze]

If you count up the number of people on the earth who believe in god (over five billion for sure) then you will know how many different gods are worshiped. All people have their own ideas about who god is, and no two are exactly alike, at least no that I've seen.

[florduh]

God is human.

Damn Antlerman, I still cringe a bit when I hear you say that man. It seems so new agey to me. I would say God is often a human projection or something. I mean damn. Saying "we are God" sounds so arrogant to me.

 

I take that as the gods' different natures are of human invention. A god would create god-like things, and a human would create human-like things. It's our only reference. Since we're making up our gods, they are human models.

 

To assume there is a real god existing independently of our notions, who is creating and running things on Earth would imply to me that it would be unknowable and irrelevant in our context and only available frame of reference.

 

- Chris