God/Jesus being a Genuine Man

[Saviourmachine]

God/Jesus being a Genuine Man

 

This isn't about the normal issues that arise in the debate about the dual nature of Jesus, the supposed mangod. It's about the things that Jesus could experience. Some say that it was possible to tempt Jesus, but impossible for him to sin due to his nature.

 

However, many other problems did Jesus not experience. Problems that are so real for ordinary men and women. Problems that make his life like the life of a butterfly. And we - poor caterpillars - have to struggle on and on.

 

Jesus didn't experience

• how to beg for forgiveness
  
• to be too weak to resist temptation
  
• the feeling of wanting to keep possessions (how then could he feel remorse when giving something away?)
  
• growing up in a secular society
  
• the relief you feel when you're forgiven by the one you sinned against
  
• being wrong about things
  
• being justly corrected or punished
  
• limitations that weren't self-imposed
  
• how it is to believe in, to trust the wrong persons, religion
  

What's more humiliating than begging for forgiveness or realizing that someone can't resist temptation? Almost everybody on earth did humiliate him or herself more than Jesus ever did.

[Heimdall]

Let's stir the pot a little here and add the physical to that. I can't see that suffering for less than half a day and dying on a cross is anything near a person suffering with the intense pain of terminal cancer; something that can last months upon months, with no relief other than finally - death. I would say he got off easy! - Heimdall

[Amanda]

God/Jesus being a Genuine Man

Jesus didn't experience

• how to beg for forgiveness
  

  <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He had what's called 'empathy'. He gave it without having to be asked.

to be too weak to resist temptation

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He came to set an example. He struggled... as in the Garden before his arrest. His struggle finally overcame the world when he was willing to surrender to the will of God with faith in these priciples and in a higher reasoning.

the feeling of wanting to keep possessions (how then could he feel remorse when giving something away?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remorse? Charity without enabling was a blessing.

growing up in a secular society

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was as secular and decadent then as now... if not more so.

the relief you feel when you're forgiven by the one you sinned against

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not about what the person you've sinned against does. It is about being accountable and responsible for your own behaviour. It is about doing what is right and making the most compensation for your actions possible... which might be everything you own and/or go to jail. Ask for forgiveness, do the most you can to vendicate yourself... then if the other person accepts your forgiveness, it is then between them and God... you've done all you can do.

being wrong about things

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is why he stressed the concept of 'grace'.

being justly corrected or punished

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He stressed that this was inevitable, yet amongst ourselves... lets do it with mercy and equitable justice. Only an eye for an eye... Yet, I think it was Ghandi that said 'an eye for an eye makes everyone blind'. Its not about vendictiveness.

limitations that weren't self-imposed

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His natural state is not self imposed. He was born as a man, with a purpose that none of us would of wanted to do. His life was always in adversity.

how it is to believe in, to trust the wrong persons, religion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, that's why he stressed 'grace'. I think that he came and incorporated all the religions together, finding some of all of them benficial. Maybe each one has a piece of the puzzle, and if we use something from each... we can see the whole picture more clearly. Reconciliation. Each God may be the same God?

What's more humiliating than begging for forgiveness or realizing that someone can't resist temptation? Almost everybody on earth did humiliate him or herself more than Jesus ever did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the great concept of 'grace'. It pardons us from our disrespectful positions, yet still keeping us accountable and responsible. Can't condemn someone for not doing better than their best... just have to forgive them for they know not what they do... even our self.

[Amanda]

Let's stir the pot a little here and add the physical to that.  I can't see that suffering for less than half a day and dying on a cross is anything near a person suffering with the intense pain of terminal cancer; something that can last months upon months, with no relief other than finally - death.    I would say he got off easy! - Heimdall

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The suffering, emotional and physical, went on many, many hours before the crucifiction. Betrayal by your race, your friends, your supporters and the narcissistically inflicted physical pain for which they who administered it said they could see no wrong in him... all done in front of your mother... and done in a public spectacle in which you are publicly displayed with no clothes, as they draw lots for them beneath your place of torture is an easy death? The grueling physical torture left him unrecognizeable, your humiliation to appease the egos around you. Do YOU ask and hope for such an 'easy' death my friend? Be truthful. How could anyone have that much contempt for any group of living creatures to say that was an 'easy' death for them?

[Saviourmachine]

... He gave it without having to be asked.

...

He came to set an example. ... His struggle finally overcame the world when he was willing to surrender to the will of God with faith in these priciples and in a higher reasoning.

...

[etc]

That's exactly what I mean. O Jesus, what a Good Guy this Man was! But he never was as true a human as I am. I have done and am doing evil things. That's where you can learn from, that's what makes it possible to humiliate. To be aware that I'm not perfect. I really would have learn more from a God that showed how to overcome these difficulties, not some Body that Shows us how we fail continuously.

[Fweethawt]

I really would have learn more from a God that showed how to overcome these difficulties, not some Body that Shows us how we fail continuously.

 

Bingo!

 

It doesn't teach a person honesty, it doesn't teach self-help, it doesn't teach how to help others, or how to ask others for help when you need it.

 

It simply gives an impossible standard, then turns around and condemns those who can't meet it, causing an ever-present feeling of inadequacy in the believers unto death.

 

That very feeling is what keeps the pews filled, in my opinion.

[duderonomy]

Amanda..

nice response.

As for being paraded naked in front of your mother, and etc... maybe I should be the Saviour!

Trust me... some children have gone through much much worse than Jesus in their lives.

And we (they) weren't 'God'... Oh that we could have called 10,000 angels as we squealed.

No offence, Amanda, but you need to get your chin out of the Bible and into what's going on around you.

Duder

[dogmatically_challenged]

The suffering, emotional and physical, went on many, many hours before the crucifiction.

Who gives a rip? jesus allegedly is god so he knew he would suvive it. Also I find it very distastful to make lite of human suffering. Do you realize that in the past that the suffering from cancer could go on longer than being crucified? Also there have been people who have been tortured for days on end in history in more gruesome ways than crucifiction. Jesus has not suffered nearly as much as aome humans.

 

Betrayal by your race

This statement is very telling. You do realize race is virtually an illusion if we look at genetics. Also, if everyone is part of god race is irrelevant, especialy to an allegedly higher part of god like your godman. You do not really believe that all people are parts of god do you? It doesn't seem so to me anymore.

 

, your friends, your supporters and the narcissistically inflicted physical pain for which they who administered it said they could see no wrong in him... all done in front of your mother... and done in a public spectacle in which you are publicly displayed with no clothes, as they draw lots for them beneath your place of torture is an easy death? The grueling physical torture left him unrecognizeable, your humiliation to appease the egos around you. Do YOU ask and hope for such an 'easy' death my friend? Be truthful. How could anyone have that much contempt for any group of living creatures to say that was an 'easy' death for them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus knew he would survive as well if he was also god. Something that no mortal can be 100% sure of deep down inside. There have been innocent humans who suffered worse than he ever did and for longer.

[Fweethawt]

The suffering, emotional and physical, went on many, many hours before the crucifiction. Betrayal by your race, your friends, your supporters and the narcissistically inflicted physical pain for which they who administered it said they could see no wrong in him... all done in front of your mother... and done in a public spectacle in which you are publicly displayed with no clothes, as they draw lots for them beneath your place of torture is an easy death? The grueling physical torture left him unrecognizeable, your humiliation to appease the egos around you. Do YOU ask and hope for such an 'easy' death my friend? Be truthful. How could anyone have that much contempt for any group of living creatures to say that was an 'easy' death for them?

 

Amanda,

 

Have you ever had the great pleasure (<-- sarcasm ) of watching a cancer victim suffer and die?

 

You are trying to gain sympathy for a fictional character here while at the same time, your words seem to be trivializing real people's real pain and real suffering.

 

Ain't religion grand?

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of people here who would gladly go through what the biblical Jesus went through if they knew that it meant that all pain and suffering would be gone for everyone else after the actions took place.

 

The biblical perspective on this matter is actually quite trivial once you take reality into consideration.

 

Ain't religion grand?

[Heimdall]

The suffering, emotional and physical, went on many, many hours before the crucifiction. Betrayal by your race, your friends, your supporters and the narcissistically inflicted physical pain for which they who administered it said they could see no wrong in him

Six hours by the book, and how does that compare to months and years of agony as suffered by the cancer patient? At one time or another, most people have been betrayed (Jews are not a race, just a subgroup of the Semites) by their friends and even their supporters, so what is so special about that? Evidentially the Romans saw something wrong with him, after all he was advocating rebellion, by claiming to be the Anointed, the King of the Jews. Now, that is said, show me in CONTEMPORARY secular documents where this all actually happened, we only have the word of a very biased and very self-contradicting book that it ever even happened, I doubt if you can tell me what year this little demigod bastard was born, in a manner that will be supported by your NT and recorded history. I personally think you are quoting mythology that is worth no more than that of the Greeks and Romans. Show me otherwise or STFU - Heimdall

[dogmatically_challenged]

Jesus was a low down dirty horse thief who told a gentile woman and child to get in the back of the bus. He divides families. He encourages leaving your family to spread the werd. He was a sadistic megalomaniac who wanked at the fantasy of towns and cities being destroyed and then roasted forever in hell just because they would not invest in his business by becoming his slaves in the sweatshop self hatred.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Amen to that, Brotha!!  If he was real, he was definately in need of some pschyiatric help.  His gang resembled modern day Charlie Manson followers, you know, they believed that Charlie made a bus fly.  Charlie had more than twelve disciples too, so I guess it makes it real.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ROFL!!!

 

I shouldn't laugh caus this is so sad. Jesus is the prince of immorality and a third of the freekin werld are his groupies.

[Amanda]

To be aware that I'm not perfect. I really would have learn more from a God that showed how to overcome these difficulties, not some Body that Shows us how we fail continuously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He never showed anyone how they fail continuously. He never imputed our trespasses against us. I think he provided principles to help someone in whatever situation they are experiencing. Perhaps we can't change others, or the whole world, yet we can change what is inside of us, change our perceptions, hence change our own reality so that the things in the environment have less effect on us. Changing ourself, I think has an impact on changing the world too. I'd hope that we would strive to preserve the rights of our self and others.

 

Saviourmachine... what is a role model? Do they exhibit what not to do or what to do. Perhaps Jesus spiritually became one with all of us, then he would of gone through all things with us in a 'connected' sort of way. Also, we do not know what Jesus did before his incarnation of that time.... nor do we know what we did... if you consider the possibilities of your energy existing beyond your body...

[Amanda]

Amanda,

 

Do you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe that Jesus was the first one to manifest the fullness of the consciousness of God here on earth. I do think he was a man, just like us. He had no special gift to see the future, he suffered pain and emotions like us, everything he did could be learned by any man. It seems to me that he was able to transcend the general ways of the earth, perceive and invoke a higher standard in which to regard each other. The only time he condemned any one is when they were self-elitist, gained their position by condemning others. Jesus is a mature son/creation of God, and everyone else is a child of God also... able to attain the nature and abilities of Jesus... should they choose. As you already know, I think 'everything' is part of God.

[Amanda]

No offence, Amanda, but you need to get your chin out of the Bible and into what's going on around you.

Duder

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Duder... thank you for your awakening statements. You might be surprised at the trials and trauma in my own life though. You might be surprised at the amount of volunteer work I do and in what areas. Maybe the first is the reason for the latter. Your message is a wise one, it didn't fall on deaf ears... and I sincerely appreciate the depth of your insights. I sense you're a remarkable person, and someone from whom I, and many others, can learn a lot. Thanks again for sharing this with me.

[Amanda]

Thankful, I will be the first one to say that many of the worst atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity! I willingly concede that much of what is being done today by the religous right in the name of Christianity is highly offensive to me too! Many fanatical religous people have done so many repulsive things in the name of their religion... yet I know that they do the opposite of representing the message they seem to claim to justify their actions. If this be the case, now what?

[Checkmate]

Thankful, I will be the first one to say that many of the worst atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity! I willingly concede that much of what is being done today by the religous right in the name of Christianity is highly offensive to me too! Many fanatical religous people have done so many repulsive things in the name of their religion... yet I know that they do the opposite of representing the message they seem to claim to justify their actions. If this be the case, now what?

 

The simple answer?: Get rid of religion!

 

It has OBVIOUSLY caused more harm than good, even you have conceded this. Why not work to eliminate religious belief? There is NOTHING wrong with atheism and humanism.

 

They have all the positive results of most "religious" beliefs (i.e. good works towards man), minus the "god" psychosis. Works for me.

[dogmatically_challenged]

The simple answer?: Get rid of religion!

 

It has OBVIOUSLY caused more harm than good, even you have conceded this.  Why not work to eliminate religious belief?  There is NOTHING wrong with atheism and humanism. 

 

They have all the positive results of most "religious" beliefs (i.e. good works towards man), minus the "god" psychosis.  Works for me. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the very least she might want to try looking for god without looking to mythology books.

 

Search from within and search nature to see what makes sense and is really meaningful. Beats hell out of defending a very flawed mythology book.

 

Also we have no good reason to believe jesus ever even existed and even if he did we still can't varify if the sayings attributed to him are really from him. The gospel jesus is a here say story only. No reason to believe he was a higher part of god.

 

The reason I ride Amanda harder is that she is almost not a xian. She is a heretic. hehe!

 

The bible is mostly garbage as well as the teachings attributed to jezues. Maybe one day she'll stop being in denial of that fact and just cherry pick the gem's in that book while openly rejecting the immorality of gospel jesus.

[Fweethawt]

It simply gives an impossible standard, then turns around and condemns those who can't meet it, causing an ever-present feeling of inadequacy in the believers unto death.

everything he did could be learned by any man.

 

 

Now now, don't lie to us here.

 

You didn't really mean to say "anything", did you?

 

 

 

Thank you for driving my point home.

[dogmatically_challenged]

everything he did could be learned by any man.

Now now, don't lie to us here. 

 

You didn't really mean to say "anything", did you? 

Thank you for driving my point home.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think she aught to make a thread were she totaly breaks down her theology of god and jesus of the bible. No editing allowed. She has no real method to her madness. hehe.

[Amanda]

Now, that is said, show me in CONTEMPORARY secular documents where this all actually happened, we only have the word of a very biased and very self-contradicting book that it ever even happened, I doubt if you can tell me what year this little demigod bastard was born, in a manner that will be supported by your NT and recorded history.  I personally think you are quoting mythology that is worth no more than that of the Greeks and Romans.  Show me otherwise or STFU - Heimdall 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know what Heimdall, you have the priviledge of being acknowledged in regards as a cofounder of this site, which is impressive to me. This is a wonderful arena, it speaks for itself, and if they allow you to list yourself as a cofounder... hey, I give credit where credit is due. You've participated and are obviously an integral part in creating a gem here.

 

What I think is inappropriate in your presentation to me is that you assume there is some sort of obligation from me that I must play by your rules to justify anything to anyone... even you! I don't care if there is historical evidence to prove Jesus physically existed, I don't care if you think he is a myth, I don't think that I was moved, inclined, hired, obligated or any other motivational factors to prove to you anything. Likewise, you've proved nothing to me. You've shared your opinion and I've shared mine... without censorship. That is what makes this site incredibly unique and effective.

 

You see, what you seem to ignore about the 'story' of Jesus, IMHO, is that there are altruistic principles superceding egotistical drives, that reach for a far higher standard of respect and concern for self and ALL people and living things... and these principles stand on their own merit, regardless of anything else. If you have something better, YOU write a world best seller... and I promise I'll read it. Even 'IF' Jesus were a myth, you show me nothing that presents anything that comes close to the magnitude of the masterpiece I've come to understand and know, portrayed in the scriptures. Jesus fought against condescending, self elitist that condemned others to place them selves in a superior position. BTW, does that offend you?

 

If you have issues against the religous right... ok, so do I. If you think that some of these existing 'interpretations' of the scriptures seem to stagnate and not strive to a more accurate delivery, one that needs to evolve to a more enlightening awareness of mercy and compassion... so do I. I just happen to want to keep the baby when I throw out the bathwater... IMHO.

[Amanda]

BTW, here are some outside references for the authenticity of Jesus the man outside the Bible... I was actually asked this in another forum, which caused me to realized that I should of included it in my previous post here too... so here it is.

 

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...222264?v=glance

 

This one addresses more of the controversy about the validity of the evidence of Jesus being in India, in what seems to be an objective manner:

http://www.tjresearch.info/ecumensm.htm

 

There seems to be lots more if you just do a search on "The Lost Years of Jesus". I looked through several sites and could not find one that concluded this to be a hoax... yet, I didn't check them all. I have read the book many years ago... yet realize I'm prone to a biased opinion. It will be interesting to see what its critics will have to say...

[scotter]

Quote from you Amanda:

If you think that some of these existing 'interpretations' of the scriptures seem to stagnate and not strive to a more accurate delivery, one that needs to evolve to a more enlightening awareness of mercy and compassion... so do I.

 

I do not know about what Heimdall thinks and I hesitate to impose it on Heimdall, whereas in the paragraph before you commented you were imposed by Heimdall’s rules.

 

I have nothing against Jesus personally, but I have to admit I am incapable of sugar-coating (aka ‘interpretation in the manner of a more enlightening awareness of mercy and compassion’) Luke 19:27, “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me”.

 

One can always defends that is not what Jesus had really meant…..but if Jesus is God as the Church declares him to be, as you believe him to be, he could already foresee the sea of blood spilled by this spoken sentence of his, in the coming two thousand years after his time on earth.

 

You don’t need to play by the rules of Heimdall, but I respectfully wonder if you also refuse to play by the rules of reality.

 

.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Quote from you Amanda:

If you think that some of these existing 'interpretations' of the scriptures seem to stagnate and not strive to a more accurate delivery, one that needs to evolve to a more enlightening awareness of mercy and compassion... so do I.

 

I do not know about what Heimdall thinks and I hesitate to impose it on Heimdall, whereas in the paragraph before you commented you were imposed by Heimdall’s rules.

 

I have nothing against Jesus personally, but I have to admit I am incapable of sugar-coating (aka ‘interpretation in the manner of a more enlightening awareness of mercy and compassion’) Luke 19:27, “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me”.

 

One can always defends that is not what Jesus had really meant…..but if Jesus is God as the Church declares him to be, as you believe him to be, he could already foresee the sea of blood spilled by this spoken sentence of his, in the coming two thousand years after his time on earth.

 

You don’t need to play by the rules of Heimdall, but I respectfully wonder if you also refuse to play by the rules of reality.

 

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She can only see the gems in the jesus story and not the evil stuff.

 

She has almost zero retention of the O.T. because of her narrowminded chauvinism for her godman jezues.

 

If everyone is a part of god then she can't righlty favor one religion over the other and for her to be fair to all she must reject all religions in favor of honoring the gems in holybooks and rejecting what is ugly in them. We can point out the ugly side of jezues but it would only bounce of her hard headedness for jesus, or she will twist scripture to make it 'mean' what it does not say.

 

She can only get closer to reality than she is now, if she finaly decides to really believe in her claim that all people are parts of god by getting rid of her favortism for just one slice of humanity that she is blindly devoted to. Fact is if she chooses jesus she spits in the face of the jews by making them wrong about thier understanding of thier holybook as well as thier god. This is immoral since xianity hasn't a leg to stand on in it's claims of jesus being the messiah. On account of her oinkiness she will not honestly test her notion of jesus being a messiah. She could have checked out the links I gave her to some of the judaic boards, but obviously she has not.

[Saviourmachine]

BTW, here are some outside references for the authenticity of Jesus the man outside the Bible...  I was actually asked this in another forum, which caused me to realized that I should of included it in my previous post here too... so here it is.

 

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...222264?v=glance

 

This one addresses more of the controversy about the validity of the evidence of Jesus being in India, in what seems to be an objective manner:

http://www.tjresearch.info/ecumensm.htm

 

There seems to be lots more if you just do a search on "The Lost Years of Jesus". I looked through several sites and could not find one that concluded this to be a hoax... yet, I didn't check them all. I have read the book many years ago... yet realize I'm prone to a biased opinion. It will be interesting to see what its critics will have to say...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Amanda,

 

I think you're very nice to believe in as much religions and persons as is possible. However I'm far too critical to be like you. I can't seriously trust a person as Notovitch, with his 'lost scrolls' (hoax source). I'm very fond of reading such pseudo-scientific works, but most often to investigate how comes that people do these things. I read Velikovsky, Von Däniken, just as I read de Bhagavad~Gita at the moment, or the "Gospel of the Essenes" by Szekeley. How could you ever trust these people, who are - very probable - wrong in their main message. Of course, good things can be found in their writings, but wouldn't you learn faster when meditating and searching on your own?

 

You think that I am throwing childs with bathwaters, but I am seriously concerned about the way you're searching for the truth. But, however, you don't have to take my opinion about truth serious, because it's the kind of truth that doesn't necessarily profit you, or comfort you.

 

It's fine that you see Jesus as your role model. I'd rather see my own father/mother, or some contemporary human as my hero. A hero with his/her weakness, to learn how to tackle my own stupidities. My role model ain't to be perfect. I hate perfectness. My 'heaven' would be to have contact with God again and really fighting together to make the earth (and maybe the heaven too) a beautiful place. God having said that he is sorry for a few things, and trying to help us together. Trust has to be earned. That's what Jesus could have done that time: not die.