God/Jesus being a Genuine Man

[Heimdall]

What I think is inappropriate in your presentation to me is that you assume there is some sort of obligation from me that I must play by your rules to justify anything to anyone... even you!

 

Assumed? I think not! I stated the accepted axiom that the person making fantastic claims must present equally fantastic proofs to be accepted as other than a charlatan or a fool. Therefore, if you can’t or won’t present these proofs; which are you fool or charlatan?

 

BTW, here are some outside references for the authenticity of Jesus the man outside the Bible... I was actually asked this in another forum, which caused me to realized that I should of included it in my previous post here too... so here it is.

 

This one addresses more of the controversy about the validity of the evidence of Jesus being in India, in what seems to be an objective manner:

 

http://www.tjresearch.info/ecumensm.htm

 

Yes, I am even aware of Dr Deardorff’s little jaunt into New Age Religion, just as I am aware of his three works on extraterrestrial communications and his two books on the problems of gospel-based Christianity (showing how he slowly embraced the “dark-side” and leaned towards the New Age Religions). Dr. Deardorff is an exceptional man, but as a “weatherman” (his specialty is Atmospheric Sciences), I look askance at his qualifications as a historian. He seems to not understand the parameters of historical evidence (yes I have read his précis) and is too willing to accept a translation that is only backed by the word of a man shown to be at best questionable. There is no ancient manuscript that can be produced and witnesses from that time period (including the Buddhist Abbot that supposedly showed him the manuscript) denied Notovitch had ever been there and denied the existence of such a scroll.

 

There seems to be lots more if you just do a search on "The Lost Years of Jesus". I looked through several sites and could not find one that concluded this to be a hoax... yet, I didn't check them all. I have read the book many years ago... yet realize I'm prone to a biased opinion. It will be interesting to see what its critics will have to say...

 

I have been there and done that. Nicholas Notovitch has been debunked many many times since his book was published in 1894. AS for you not being able to find sites that debunked the Lost Years Of Jesus, here are a couple; plus one that shows the other Jesus-in-India hair-brained theory that he didn’t actually die on the cross and went to India afterward.

 

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals...ibet/tibet.html

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_lost_years_of_jesus.html

http://www.tombofjesus.com/BookReviews.htm (Post crucifixion in India)

 

This whole Jesus-in-India concept (in fact the whole Cult) would hinge on the question that I keep asking and no Christ Cultist has been able to answer yet – What year was Jesus born in? Use the gospels and recorded history and tell me when he was born. Remember they all have to match up; here are the parameters:

Herod the Great – reigned from 40 to 4 BCE

Augustus – reigned 24 BCE to 14 CE

Quirinius (known as Cyrenius in Luke) – served as Governor of Syria from 6 – 9 CE (and did conduct a census at the command of Augustus)

John the Baptist’s ministry – 28 CE to 31 or 32 CE (began in the 15th year of Tiberius)

Pontius Pilate – served as Perfect from 26 to 36 CE

Tiberius – reigned from 14 to 37 CE

Mark says the birth took place during the reign of King Herod (Herod the Great)

Luke says the birth took place during the census ordered by Augustus when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria.

To further complicate things, Irenaeus, sometime after mid 2nd century made the comment that Jesus was still alive in the reign of Trajan (98-117 CE) and Epiphanius writing in the 4th century CE said that Jesus was born before Herod the Great (73 – 4 BCE).

If Irenaeus is right, then Notovitch would be shown to be a total charlatan, if Epiphanius is right, then the entire religion would be shown to be bogus. One thing that is for sure, the traditional dating is incorrect, since it misses both Herod and Cyrenius. When you have gotten the date, we will talk - Heimdall

[Saviourmachine]

When you have gotten the date, we will talk - Heimdall

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Heimdall, maybe I'm not right (Amanda, correct me if I'm wrong) but I think she doesn't give a fuck about if all these things really happened or not. If God wants to talk to her by a myth or by real history, it doesn't make any difference to her. Even if God wanted to use all kinds of deceiving church fathers, making all kind of things up about an assumed godman, it's his good right to do so, and we can learn a lot of it. The "aim does sanctify the means" [or how is that saying?].

 

Actually this is off-topic, but what does God want to tell us by this story of Jesus, Amanda? And how did he tell that before Jesus came on earth?

 

I guess God's goal is in that case not that we will know the truth about the past. In my worldview the truth is important, and exactly that kind of truth too. I don't want to reach for psychological, personal goals. I want to know how reality is and was. I want to know how it really happened. That's why I don't look in e.g. the book of Mormon for theological treasures, but am at most utterly astonished by Smith's corruptness. I deaply regret the lost Library of Alexandria. I really would like God to give us some more clues and stories about the past. I'd appreciate that above prophecies about the future. Unseal the book of the Past.

[Heimdall]

Hi Heimdall, maybe I'm not right (Amanda, correct me if I'm wrong) but I think she doesn't give a fuck about if all these things really happened or not. If God wants to talk to her by a myth or by real history, it doesn't make any difference to her.

 

You know, I don’t really give a shit what Amanda wants or believes. If she wants to come here and spout her idiot head off and have anyone believe her, then she will have to produce evidence that she isn’t hallucinating or smoking the “good stuff”. So put up or shut up Mandy! – Heimdall

[Amanda]

I do not know about what Heimdall thinks and I hesitate to impose it on Heimdall, whereas in the paragraph before you commented you were imposed by Heimdall’s rules.

 

I have nothing against Jesus personally, but I have to admit I am incapable of sugar-coating (aka ‘interpretation in the manner of a more enlightening awareness of mercy and compassion’) Luke 19:27, “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me”.

 

One can always defends that is not what Jesus had really meant…..but if Jesus is God as the Church declares him to be, as you believe him to be, he could already foresee the sea of blood spilled by this spoken sentence of his, in the coming two thousand years after his time on earth.

 

You don’t need to play by the rules of Heimdall, but I respectfully wonder if you also refuse to play by the rules of reality.

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Scotter, I understand what you are saying. It has been a long practice of many churches to 'scare' someone into Christianity. It seems some think the 'end justifies the means'. IMHO, it was an inappropriate way to go. As far as this particular reference you presented, it is interesting that Jesus was preparing to go to the crucifiction as the way to slay his enemy. It was to slay them in the spirit. If Jesus really meant to mortally slay them, then why did he not even let Peter cut the ear off of his enemy?

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter if you don't choose the 'Christian' way for your path. If I took the Bible as meaning what many here think it does, as what many church 'Christians' say it means... I wouldn't believe it either. I personally think that most people on this site are on a better path than many church filled 'Christians' I have encountered... and I have no issue with YOU.

 

Reality? Scotter, who knows what is reality? We can determine what is highly regarded by most to be true. We can accept popular theory. There is the reality that comes to us as a presupposition, so it goes unchallenged. As one reads science, one finds out that reality is changing all the time. One's perception is THEIR reality. If you believe Jesus was brutally cruel, then that is true to you. I think that we both hold similar insights as to what is acceptable behavior towards one another... and those things are probably more important, aren't they?

[Amanda]

The simple answer?: Get rid of religion!

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I agree! Although I do think that we should keep spirituality. I think that Jesus was NOT about religion... but about spiritual significance.

[Amanda]

Thank you for driving my point home. 

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What Jesus did, we can do. Jesus said that everything he did, we too can do... and even greater things. Is that what you mean, if not... I apologize, what do you mean?

[Amanda]

I'm very fond of reading such pseudo-scientific works, but most often to investigate how comes that people do these things. I read Velikovsky, Von Däniken, just as I read de Bhagavad~Gita at the moment, or the "Gospel of the Essenes" by Szekeley. How could you ever trust these people, who are - very probable - wrong in their main message. Of course, good things can be found in their writings, but wouldn't you learn faster when meditating and searching on your own?

-------------------------------

It's fine that you see Jesus as your role model. I'd rather see my own father/mother, or some contemporary human as my hero. A hero with his/her weakness, to learn how to tackle my own stupidities. My role model ain't to be perfect. I hate perfectness. My 'heaven' would be to have contact with God again and really fighting together to make the earth (and maybe the heaven too) a beautiful place. God having said that he is sorry for a few things, and trying to help us together. Trust has to be earned. That's what Jesus could have done that time: not die.

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I think that is wonderful and applaud you in your outlook. If I thought the Bible said the same thing as most people on this site, or like many people in the church, I wouldn't believe it either. It seems that we have similar opinions on how to treat people and our environment, and that is what is important.

 

FWIW, here are some other non-Biblical references to the genuine man Jesus.

 

http://www.evidencetobelieve.net/history_of_jesus.htm

 

and another one, THANKFUL , that also includes justifying Jesus as the intended Messiah of the OT.

 

http://www.ch-of-christ.beaverton.or.us/JESUSPRO.htm

 

I'm just sharing another perspective and am in no way saying one MUST believe them. Just adding another perspective that exists out here in the world in a different place than where another person might stand. That's all.

[Amanda]

But Amanda, you are not out doing those things.  Are you drinking deadly poison?  Are you out healing the sick?  Are you out driving out demons? 

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Thankful, I think there are a lot of symbolisms in the Bible. Handling snakes, I think is a metaphor... and so is drinking deadly poisons. Although I am not ruling out totally other things.... yet.

 

Actually I think there are techniques that can be learned, and with time... more of these mysteries will unfold, revealing the methods of more of these miracles done by Jesus. He did say that we can do them too! They must be within our grasp.

 

I think one way of Jesus' physical healings is through emotional healing... even where we may not know there is emotional turmoil! I've heard many doctors say that a lot of illnesses are psychosomatic. There are techniques that can target these initial synthesizing events precluding the illness, resolve them with spiritual techniques (even if not done in the guise of spirituality), and I've seen some pretty incredible healings take place. Hence, statments like "your sins are forgiven, rise and go and sin no more." Also, I think many illnesses exist because our personalities are fragmented, and that is why the Bible said something like, "you are made whole, you are healed." Sometimes I think people are ill to bring someone else up to their next spiritual level, in such stories as when Jesus told the centurion who came to have his servant healed, "by YOUR faith he is healed."

 

I'm not ruling out reiki (laying on of hands) either, although I am not very familiar with it. Also there are techniques of energy flow and its healing properties seem to be impressive to me too. I've taken a class or two.

 

Yes, there are some conditions that one must just deal with, and its how they/we preceive these problems that needs to be worked out... I guess... and I know this is not easy and can seem impossible... but what other choices do we have but to be strong for one another? Do I have all the answers? NO. Does anyone else? If so, let me know.

[scotter]

Amanda you always have the option to explain it off. I did not say Jesus meant to be cruel, but the zealous Crusaders were not so enlightened as you. The Crusaders took the sentence literally and as I said,….sea of blood, because they believed what they did was God-stamped.

 

I reiterate this time by direct description – how many tons of blood were spilled in history because of this sentence?

 

And again, if Jesus is God as you believe him to be, he could foresee what would happen because of what he said.

 

My focus is not about "Jesus said bad things", nor Jesus meant it or not, my focus is about the consequence and responsibility of saying this thing.

[Amanda]

Also, have you ever heard of Craniosacral therapy?

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Yes, I use to know a Chriopractor that did it... it seems to be valid from what I've heard... yet I have never had it done. Another 'hands on' technique that seems to have some credence, I have not tried, is 'reflexology.' Sorry to be off topic... have you heard of the book, Vibrational Medicine (by Dr. Becker, I think)?

 

BTW, I've personally noted The Healing Light. Thanks.

[Amanda]

Amanda you always have the option to explain it off. I did not say Jesus meant to be cruel, but the zealous Crusaders were not so enlightened as you. The Crusaders took the sentence literally and as I said,….sea of blood, because they believed what they did was God-stamped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Scotter, I apologize if I did not understand you correctly. Sometimes I'm in a hurry, or its late... so I'm going to try to be more focused. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

I reiterate this time by direct description – how many tons of blood were spilled in history because of this sentence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Scotter, the question I ask you is this... how many people used God to fulfill their own will? Is that different than to let God use us to fulfill his will? I suggest of the people you refer, it is the first, not the latter.

 

Jesus has a parable of these ten virgins. These virgins knew the laws, that is why they were virgins. All ten had the lamp, the Bible... what can hold the ability to have light... yet only five of these virgins had the oil, the Holy Spirit, the actual 'light giving source'. Jesus says of these five that did not have the 'light giving source', its as if I never knew you.

 

I can read knowledge all I want about Ozzy Osbourne, but if I don't meet him and have a personal experience with him... he will say he never knew me. If I don't meet and have an experience with God which is true love, compassion, and mercy... then he will say he never knew me. How could I then say that I fight for his desires without knowing him? John Hinkley shot Ronald Regan for the affections of Jodie Foster... do you think that was done in her regards to what she wanted, or what John Hinkley wanted?

 

And again, if Jesus is God as you believe him to be, he could foresee what would happen because of what he said.

 

My focus is not about "Jesus said bad things", nor Jesus meant it or not, my focus is about the consequence and responsibility of saying this thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Scotter, if you had a child... would you go through the world changing everything in its path... or would you teach it principles, critical thinking, to manuever through the world with the world having as little as possible ill effects on it? No matter what one does or say, some will run with their own interpretation any way. There is a price of 'free will'... or would you rather that free will was not given? Hopefully these tragedies have lessons, as I believe we are meant to be progressing as internally strong overcomers... instead of weak, dependent people. These awful actions teach us to define ourselves more and more, discern a more respectful lifestyle... and hopefully guiding us into a better life... even though it it seems like this way is guiding us as a ship tacks towards the shore.

[dogmatically_challenged]

If everyone is going to heaven so long as they are good people, then I'm gonna start a cult were fishing is the religion.

 

Fishing every sunday beats the hell out of chasing after miracles, prayin hard (hehe), and tithes to the church.

[Cerise]

Scotter, I apologize if I did not understand you correctly. Sometimes I'm in a hurry, or its late... so I'm going to try to be more focused. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Scotter, the question I ask you is this... how many people used God to fulfill their own will? Is that different than to let God use us to fulfill his will? I suggest of the people you refer, it is the first, not the latter.

 

Jesus has a parable of these ten virgins. These virgins knew the laws, that is why they were virgins. All ten had the lamp, the Bible... what can hold the ability to have light... yet only five of these virgins had the oil, the Holy Spirit, the actual 'light giving source'. Jesus says of these five that did not have the 'light giving source', its as if I never knew you.

 

I can read knowledge all I want about Ozzy Osbourne, but if I don't meet him and have a personal experience with him... he will say he never knew me. If I don't meet and have an experience with God which is true love, compassion, and mercy... then he will say he never knew me. How could I then say that I fight for his desires without knowing him? John Hinkley shot Ronald Regan for the affections of Jodie Foster... do you think that was done in her regards to what she wanted, or what John Hinkley wanted?

Scotter, if you had a child... would you go through the world changing everything in its path... or would you teach it principles, critical thinking, to manuever through the world with the world having as little as possible ill effects on it? No matter what one does or say, some will run with their own interpretation any way. There is a price of 'free will'... or would you rather that free will was not given? Hopefully these tragedies have lessons, as I believe we are meant to be progressing as internally strong overcomers... instead of weak, dependent people. These awful actions teach us to define ourselves more and more, discern a more respectful lifestyle... and hopefully guiding us into a better life... even though it it seems like this way is guiding us as a ship tacks towards the shore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. Because we all learned so very much on our knees with carpet in our mouths and lashes on our backs.

 

I wonder how you can say with a straight face that your god has anything to do with love, mercy, or compassion.

[Amanda]

Yes.  Because we all learned so very much on our knees with carpet in our mouths and lashes on our backs.

 

I wonder how you can say with a straight face that your god has anything to do with love, mercy, or compassion.

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Cerise, that scenario is absolutely uncomprehensible... I will say that I'm way too superficial, shallow to grasp the realm of the magnitude of such a tragedy, of such immeasureable abuse... and I have a high regard for someone who has undergone these circumstances. If done by a parent, IMO, it is worse than being a prisoner of war! People that have had to overcome such dynamics have my utmost respect, especially if they have emerged without an unruly violent overtone to their character. There's nothing I can do but to sit at their feet and listen.

 

I ask you, do you think that it was God that demanded this occurrence to take place, or was God an excuse for the abuser, or is it easier to blame God than one's parent? Having said that, consider the life of the parent and their upbringing... and is the parent happy and well adjusted... or do they have far more significant issues about themself? In their heart, did they really think that they did this out of hatred or love... perhaps at a deeper level to keep the child from making the same mistakes they themself had made... or maybe they never learned to care truly about anyone else, as no one ever cared about them? Why do you think they acted in such a way?

 

Sharing with you from my own life... I was raised in a very, very dysfunctional family... lower socioeconomic class, the kind that threw things and broke things to make a point... or when it got really intense, would pull knives and guns on each other to intensify their stand.... all while my dad was drunk, and at about 3:00am to 5:00am. I had to go to school the next day... and oh yes, it was a pleasure to go to school and get out of the house! I was beaten with a belt by my dad once, because I came home from church one night two hours late... we had all decided to go for a milkshake after youth group.

 

Needless to say, I resented my dad... till I got older and understood that his mother died of a long suffering cancer when he was eleven, his father was in prison for transporting cigarettes across state lines... and he was tossed to and fro... and perhaps my unusually late return was the first faint indication that I may take a path like him. My mother was raised by a woman that was divorced with four daughters, and my grandmother had a fourth grade education. Once I realized all that, I became impressed that my parents turned out as good as they did! I'm amazed they weren't sociopaths! Life has history. Understanding that history helps us to change our perception of what exists today, and in turn that changes how our future will be. That, IMHO, is much like grace... 'forgive them for they know not what they do.' No, it doesn't change the past, but it changes my perception of it... it allows me to forgive and let it go. Having said that, everyone still has to be accountable and responsible for their behaviour. I actually love my parents, and was able to come to terms with my dad many years before he passed away, and I'm glad about that.

 

Cerise, if you know someone that went through that scenario you've shared with me... please give them my BEST regards. I have had a 'glimpse' of what they have had to overcome. fwiw

[Fweethawt]

If everyone is going to heaven so long as they are good people, then I'm gonna start a cult were fishing is the religion.

 

Fishing every sunday beats the hell out of chasing after miracles, prayin hard (hehe), and tithes to the church.

 

 

This religion would instantly be recognized as being anti-Christ in nature. Whereas Jesus taught others to be fishers of men, you will turn that around and actually teach people to be fishers of fish.

 

The very " heart " of your religion is blasphemous from the get-go.

[Cerise]

Cerise, that scenario is absolutely uncomprehensible... I will say that I'm way too superficial, shallow to grasp the realm of the magnitude of such a tragedy, of such immeasureable abuse... and I have a high regard for someone who has undergone these circumstances. If done by a parent, IMO, it is worse than being a prisoner of war! People that have had to overcome such dynamics have my utmost respect, especially if they have emerged without an unruly violent overtone to their character. There's nothing I can do but to sit at their feet and listen.

 

Actually, there is more that you can do then listen. You can try not to endorse such abuses with your words and actions. Who said anything about parents, by the way? My parents are wonderful people. My parents love me. Unlike certain spirit-filled persons.

 

I ask you, do you think that it was God that demanded this occurrence to take place, or was God an excuse for the abuser, or is it easier to blame God than one's parent?

 

Either your god has a plan or he does not. Either everything that takes place in this world is under his command and of his power or it is not. Either your god could have saved this child from horrors and refused to do so, or your god was not powerful enough to accomplish any sort of rescue. If he was powerless to help, why should I worship? If he had the power and refused to give help why should I worship?

 

You wish to absolve your god from all responsibility. And yet your god is the one who can never have the excuse of "knowing not what he does".

 

Having said that, consider the life of the parent and their upbringing... and is the parent happy and well adjusted... or do they have far more significant issues about themself? In their heart, did they really think that they did this out of hatred or love... perhaps at a deeper level to keep the child from making the same mistakes they themself had made... or maybe they never learned to care truly about anyone else, as no one ever cared about them? Why do you think they acted in such a way?

 

Not a parent. Don't know. Don't care.

 

Sharing with you from my own life... I was raised in a very, very dysfunctional family... lower socioeconomic class, the kind that threw things and broke things to make a point... or when it got really intense, would pull knives and guns on each other to intensify their stand.... all while my dad was drunk, and at about 3:00am to 5:00am. I had to go to school the next day... and oh yes, it was a pleasure to go to school and get out of the house! I was beaten with a belt by my dad once, because I came home from church one night two hours late... we had all decided to go for a milkshake after youth group.

 

Needless to say, I resented my dad... till I got older and understood that his mother died of a long suffering cancer when he was eleven, his father was in prison for transporting cigarettes across state lines... and he was tossed to and fro... and perhaps my unusually late return was the first faint indication that I may take a path like him. My mother was raised by a woman that was divorced with four daughters, and my grandmother had a fourth grade education. Once I realized all that, I became impressed that my parents turned out as good as they did! I'm amazed they weren't sociopaths! Life has history. Understanding that history helps us to change our perception of what exists today, and in turn that changes how our future will be. That, IMHO, is much like grace... 'forgive them for they know not what they do.' No, it doesn't change the past, but it changes my perception of it... it allows me to forgive and let it go. Having said that, everyone still has to be accountable and responsible for their behaviour. I actually love my parents, and was able to come to terms with my dad many years before he passed away, and I'm glad about that.

 

Cerise, if you know someone that went through that scenario you've shared with me... please give them my BEST regards. I have had a 'glimpse' of what they have had to overcome. fwiw

 

We don't need regards. What we needed was for someone to stop it. What we prayed for was someone to stop it.

 

What we got was silence. And no angel came.

[Amanda]

Who said anything about parents, by the way? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise, I said 'IF' it is a parent....

Either your god has a plan or he does not.  Either everything that takes place in this world is under his command and of his power or it is not.  Either your god could have saved this child from horrors and refused to do so, or your god was not powerful enough to accomplish any sort of rescue.  If he was powerless to help, why should I worship?  If he had the power and refused to give help why should I worship?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I'm curious to know what are YOUR plans of actions (past, present, and future) against such attrocities continuing to happen today? We ALL have a responisibility to the world beyond ourself, THAT is what is important. God is within us, and if we hear a higher actualized self calling us to attend to a selfless purpose such as this, and we act on it... then the 'god' within us is mobilized into action. BTW, IMHO, it is only when we see this call to action from within each other... THAT is what we give praise and worship. Perhaps that may cultivate the identity of God to manifest more predominantly in the world?

You wish to absolve your god from all responsibility.  And yet your god is the one who can never have the excuse of "knowing not what he does". 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, what are OUR responsibilities? Do we ignore that?

 

Cerise, I reluctantly opened a very tender part of my soul to you... in hopes that you could get a glimmer of some of the resources that helped me find some peace and happiness through my cyclical tramatic childhood. That was a hard thing for me to do... yet caused me to identify with some of the incidences you shared with me. These are painful times in my life. I didn't get beaten so much, yet the violence was very scary for a child.... especially between my mom and dad.... yes, MY PARENTS. I love them, and they loved me too... and I'm thankful for that. I'm sorry if I offended you, that was never my intentions. I'll make sure it never happens again between us, Cerise. I'm curious to know, if you go on hating me, hating all Christians... is THAT really helping YOU feel better?

[scotter]

Am I making enemies from both sides because of this post? I go ahead to say it anyway.

 

Quoted from Cerise:

You can try not to endorse such abuses with your words and actions. Who said anything about parents, by the way? My parents are wonderful people. My parents love me. Unlike certain spirit-filled persons.

.....

Not a parent. Don't know. Don't care.

 

 

Did we just see something familiar about a week ago?

 

Becca: I was abused by my parents…..other horrible things…..

SBF: (don’t care) …..children are sinners too (it is your fault)…..(My God is Holy)….

 

Amanda: I was abused by my father…..traumatic childhood…..

Cerise: …..don’t care…..You can try not to endorse such abuses from your parents (it is part of your fault)…….. My parents…..

 

Nothing personal, Cerise and Amanda. I have to say what I have to say.

 

If we reject SBF because of [fill in blanks], we have to demonstrate to others, and to ourselves.

 

Thank you Cerise, thank you Amanda, and thank you members for reading this.

 

.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Am I making enemies from both sides because of this post? I go ahead to say it anyway.

 

Quoted from Cerise:

You can try not to endorse such abuses with your words and actions. Who said anything about parents, by the way? My parents are wonderful people. My parents love me. Unlike certain spirit-filled persons.

.....

Not a parent. Don't know. Don't care.

Did we just see something familiar about a week ago?

 

Becca: I was abused by my parents…..other horrible things…..

SBF: (don’t care) …..children are sinners too (it is your fault)…..(My God is Holy)….

 

Amanda: I was abused by my father…..traumatic childhood…..

Cerise: …..don’t care…..You can try not to endorse such abuses from your parents (it is part of your fault)…….. My parents…..

 

Nothing personal, Cerise and Amanda. I have to say what I have to say.

 

If we reject SBF because of [fill in blanks], we have to demonstrate to others, and to ourselves.

 

Thank you Cerise, thank you Amanda, and thank you members for reading this. 

 

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a big difference. Bible morality is shit morality. SBF is discriminating based on a ridiculous mythology invented by idiot primitives who held human life as something cheap. Thats what the bible is all about. Cheapening the value of human beings.

 

Cerice actually had a point based on reality and not fantasy like SBF.

[Cerise]

Dearest scotter,

 

perhaps you should read a bit more closely before jumping (leaping in faith) to conclusions. It might save you from an unsightly bout of foot in mouth disease.

 

I was not saying that I did not care that Amanda's parents were abusers. I did, however, say that I do not care WHY they did what they did. Why does not matter. Excuses don't erase trauma, nor should they be expected to.

 

You would have known this if you had bothered to quote me in context. That you did not has indeed made you "an enemy" or at least one of the careless readers on this website.

 

Here for your reading pleasure (and please do read carefully this time) what my comments were in reference to:

 

Having said that, consider the life of the parent and their upbringing... and is the parent happy and well adjusted... or do they have far more significant issues about themself? In their heart, did they really think that they did this out of hatred or love... perhaps at a deeper level to keep the child from making the same mistakes they themself had made... or maybe they never learned to care truly about anyone else, as no one ever cared about them? Why do you think they acted in such a way?

 

Not a parent. Don't know. Don't care.

 

Thank you for being a total prat, scotter. You may now return to whatever you were doing before you stuck your foot in your mouth.

[Cerise]

Cerise, I said 'IF' it is a parent....

 

And I'm curious to know what are YOUR plans of actions (past, present, and future) against such attrocities continuing to happen today?

 

Well first of all, I know better then to "leave it up to god" to solve the problem of child abuse. Or to trust that prayer and not definite action will save a child from harm.

 

I also plan never to instill in any child the idea that they are somehow deserving of such atrocities because of a horrible concept called "sin" or to associate such power with religious figures that they dare not contradict anything that spews from the mouths of "god's servents".

 

We ALL have a responisibility to the world beyond ourself, THAT is what is important.

 

That is a truth, at least.

 

God is within us, and if we hear a higher actualized self calling us to attend to a selfless purpose such as this, and we act on it... then the 'god' within us is mobilized into action.

 

And there. We are thrust back into lies.

 

BTW, IMHO, it is only when we see this call to action from within each other...  THAT is what we give praise and worship. Perhaps that may cultivate the identity of God to manifest more predominantly in the world? 

 

Perhaps we could leave the fairytales where they belong and concentrate on something that will truly make a difference to the world?

 

Cerise, I reluctantly opened a very tender part of my soul to you... in hopes that you could get a glimmer of some of the resources that helped me find some peace and happiness through my cyclical tramatic childhood.

 

I never asked you to expose your childhood to me. And I don't need tips on how to be happy from you. That wasn't what I was looking for, and that wasn't what I asked in my questions. But you seem to dodge all those so I wasn't really surprised by these non-answers you replied with.

 

That was a hard thing for me to do... yet caused me to identify with some of the incidences you shared with me. These are painful times in my life. I didn't get beaten so much, yet the violence was very scary for a child.... especially between my mom and dad.... yes, MY PARENTS. I love them, and they loved me too... and I'm thankful for that.

 

I am sorry you experienced such things from people you loved. But do try to understand, this wasn't what I was asking you. Nowhere in my post did I ask whether or not you had a painful childhood experience. Nowhere in my post did I insinuate that you had no brush with suffering. What I did ask was how you understand suffering in the context of an all-powerful, benevolent god. So far, no answers on that subject. I am not as offended as I am frustrated. When shall I get straight answers from you? Or at least a heartfelt "I don't know"?

 

I'm curious to know, if you go on hating me, hating all Christians... is THAT really helping YOU feel better?

 

Does disagreement always mean "hatred" with Christians?

 

Must I always be syrupy sweet to you, hide my skepticism and my opinion, and then compliment you on a number of things in order to avoid getting the "hated" label?

 

And where did I ever say I hated all Christians? Maybe you need to read a bit more closely before you post, Amanda. It might help you out in finding ways to avoid "offending" me.

[Saviourmachine]

I agree with Cerise. If God is really real, if he is really powerful, why do we suffer? What does it matter if we try to relieve our suffering if there is a diety that imposes it purposely upon us? Even if that deity isn't personalized but scattered among all human hearts? Is the purpose of life to have experienced a huge amount of psychological, emotional or spiritual 'states'? Why would it console us if a God is using us? Where does this slave mentality come from?

[Amanda]

I agree with Cerise. If God is really real, if he is really powerful, why do we suffer? What does it matter if we try to relieve our suffering if there is a diety that imposes it purposely upon us? Even if that deity isn't personalized but scattered among all human hearts? Is the purpose of life to have experienced a huge amount of psychological, emotional or spiritual 'states'? Why would it console us if a God is using us? Where does this slave mentality come from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Saviourmachine, do you want free will?

 

Is there something we learn in enduring trials and tribulations?

 

Does it make us stronger or weaker?

 

Is there something to be said for overcoming, or do you think that it would be much better to only live in a place as a fairytale, with never being exposed to difficult elements?

 

And, do you think that God caused these things, or man... given free will?

 

If you do not believe in God, then whose responsibility to these injustices is it?

Are we to have an obligation in the matter, or is it just God's?

 

Perhaps God gives us a needed plan to overcome these ways of man, not a need to overcome the ways of God?

 

This is just MHO, and I don't care how anyone else believes... believe the way you want... there is free will... do and think however you may... it's a wonderful attribute that I'm sure we all are glad we have. If your thinking is working for you for inner peace, joy, and mutual respect; why change?

[Cerise]

Free will in the context of your own Holy Book is mythology. Quite simply, according to scripture, there is no such thing.

 

Most Christians I talk to can't even explain to me what they think "free Will" means outside of a buzzword catch-all that absolves their god from any kind of responsibility for his own creations.

 

You can't have a grand master plan and still have free will. Free will implies that the plan could be screwed up. Free will implies that God could make a couple of oopsies.

 

You can't have a puppet master and still claim that the show wrote itself and none of the puppets have strings.

[Saviourmachine]

Saviourmachine, do you want free will?

I don't consider my desires for a moment. Regarding the belief in a 'free will'. As a Calvinist I didn't belief in it. Now I am studying linguistics and evolution I don't see any reason to belief in it either. Linguistics shows that 'free will' is a semantic ambigious and even self-contradictory concept. Evolution shows that deterministic processes combined with some random processes can result in quite a few wonderful things: life, the universe and everything.

 

So, to answer your question. Do I want free will? No, I would rather like to stay human.