Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Yet, what does it say if a victimization does happen because the person in question thought that the Bible taught them to victimize? What does it say if a black man is dragged down the street, tethered by a chain? What does it say if a gay boy is beaten and left for dead, tied to a fence? It incites people into action to continue the hatred from the pulpit just as it incites people to stop the violence. But the question still remains: what was the trigger to begin with? A little black book of fables. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It seems to me that the Truth of the little black book has been hijacked in your scenario here, and used for the purposes of man... NOT the purposes of God! EVERYONE must be held accountable and responsible for their actions... no matter what lable they give it... The Truth of the little black book is that it is the unforgiveable sin to do those acts you've mentioned. The question is... what is the higher actualized part within us going to do about these kinds of behaviors? I'm curious to know if we fight complacency and make a difference, or do we wait for the same problems to befall our own families before we do something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 It seems to me that the Truth of the little black book has been hijacked in your scenario here, and used for the purposes of man... NOT the purposes of God! EVERYONE must be held accountable and responsible for their actions... no matter what lable they give it... The Truth of the little black book is that it is the unforgiveable sin to do those acts you've mentioned. The question is... what is the higher actualized part within us going to do about these kinds of behaviors? I'm curious to know if we fight complacency and make a difference, or do we wait for the same problems to befall our own families before we do something? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Stop sandbagging against the parts of the bible that condones or encourages injustice and sadism. You believe the bible to be what it clearly is not. As far as a solution to problems first we must have decent methods and using tired old mythology books is a very poor start. The bible was written by different people with different agenda and beliefs. Period. There is no real way to harmonize the bible to your theology. The ancients did contribute to our concepts of morality, but at the same time some of thier stories are lousy at placing value on human dignity, freedom, and life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I know Amanda 'Cherry Picks'. So did we all, and maybe we as ex-Christians still do. So let her pick... I still wait to see what she has to say, should she decide to do so. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cherry picks? I do know that when I study an aspect of the Bible, I do so many times by researching the definition of each word and how it evolved, based on the manuscript from which the King James Version was taken. Further, I seek congruency with the other verses, and take into consideration the ambiance and setting of the times. I can not do this to the whole Bible... NO TIME... so I have embraced areas that have had meaning in my life, someone else's... or out of curiosity. There seems to be a persistent pattern that I do refine all the time. I do NOT pick Biblical meanings to fit my motives, I 'try' to pick my motives based on these Biblical meanings. As I see it, that's the only way it works! BTW, it doesn't matter to me if you choose to believe my shared interpretations or not... I think that it ALL boils down to enjoying life to the fullest with respect for self and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Cherry picks? I do know that when I study an aspect of the Bible, I do so many times by researching the definition of each word and how it evolved, based on the manuscript from which the King James Version was taken. Further, I seek congruency with the other verses, and take into consideration the ambiance and setting of the times. I can not do this to the whole Bible... NO TIME... so I have embraced areas that have had meaning in my life, someone else's... or out of curiosity. There seems to be a persistent pattern that I do refine all the time. I do NOT pick Biblical meanings to fit my motives, I 'try' to pick my motives based on these Biblical meanings. As I see it, that's the only way it works! BTW, it doesn't matter to me if you choose to believe my shared interpretations or not... I think that it ALL boils down to enjoying life to the fullest with respect for self and others. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not in all cases you don't. The bible waswritten by different people of different times who had different agendas and beliefs. There is no honest way to harmonize what they all believed into your idea of god. Period. You have no logical methods in building your theology and neither do your teachers. Anthropology is were you should look to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 DC, and a Midnight Star... Great posts. Everytime I think I've arrived, someone like one of you comes along and reminds me that I haven't. It's quite humbling, and I thank you. Amanda, I hope you had a great weekend. As to your last post; again, you can't have it both ways. The 'others' were casting out devils In HIS Name...not the name of Baal or some other god. I have to assume that those doing so had real 'faith', according to the story, otherwise it wouldn't have worked for them. Sceva and his boys proved that in the book of Acts. So of course if they were 'believers' Jesus would stick up for them. Also, when Jesus said 'whoever isn't against us is for us', etc, He was talking to His apostles... that would explain the 'us'. He wasn't talking about any other religious groups, obviously. If you don't mind my asking...are you affiliated with any certain church or 'denomination'? It wouldn't mean you are right or wrong... but it might help me understand your views a little more clearly. Duder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 As far as a solution to problems first we must have decent methods and using tired old mythology books is a very poor start. The bible was written by different people with different agenda and beliefs. Period. There is no real way to harmonize the bible to your theology. The ancients did contribute to our concepts of morality, but at the same time some of thier stories are lousy at placing value on human dignity, freedom, and life. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> DC, I am curious to know... what are your solutions and methods you recommend to these problems of the world? How would you transform the people to conform to a respectful behavior and who will determine what is respectful? Could you please share them with us in a manner that says what they 'are' instead of what they 'are not'? I personally do not like 'religion'. Do you think the answer is to get rid of ALL beliefs in God/spirituality... and then what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 DC, and a Midnight Star... Great posts. Everytime I think I've arrived, someone like one of you comes along and reminds me that I haven't. It's quite humbling, and I thank you. Amanda, I hope you had a great weekend. As to your last post; again, you can't have it both ways. The 'others' were casting out devils In HIS Name...not the name of Baal or some other god. I have to assume that those doing so had real 'faith', according to the story, otherwise it wouldn't have worked for them. Sceva and his boys proved that in the book of Acts. So of course if they were 'believers' Jesus would stick up for them. Also, when Jesus said 'whoever isn't against us is for us', etc, He was talking to His apostles... that would explain the 'us'. He wasn't talking about any other religious groups, obviously. If you don't mind my asking...are you affiliated with any certain church or 'denomination'? It wouldn't mean you are right or wrong... but it might help me understand your views a little more clearly. Duder <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Others in different threads have rubbed her nose in scripture and she consistently dodges or equivocates. Thank you for the kind words but my knowlege is extremely limited. For me though I want to see the methods used first before I will waste my time in debunkiing or changing my mind based on the new info shared. She has an a priori belief that the bible has hidden knowlege which is circular reasoning. She is defeated before she even started. Others have already invested thier lives in the bible/jesus tradition and they have real methods that is free of logical fallacies even though they may not all agree exactly about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 DC, I am curious to know... what are your solutions and methods you recommend to these problems of the world? How would you transform the people to conform to a respectful behavior and who will determine what is respectful? Could you please share them with us in a manner that says what they 'are' instead of what they 'are not'? I personally do not like 'religion'. Do you think the answer is to get rid of ALL beliefs in God/spirituality... and then what? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. I can not believe in gods and have no need of them, but that is just me. I'm not convinced that having gods is the problem. The problem is that many different peoples have different moral values given them from thier ancient ancestors. The morality of primitives is..well..primitive. Jesus is a primitive. The god of abraham is a down right savage. Same with other religions. The world with all thier different gods can not all see eye to eye. You can in no way harmonize all the religions without favoring one or some more so than others if your goal is to have a moral system that is based on critical thinking and empathy...empathy for the world view of others. The bible is very unsympathetic to the belief systems of other peoples. Same with Islam. We need a do over. I think the Pagans have the right ideas more or less so far. Since the bible claims ultimate truth and tries to hold a monopoly on higher power others will feel insulted. Respect is just as important as love. This is impossible with the holybooks of Christianity and Islam and to a small degree Judaism. We need a do over were holybooks are not used at all. No Ultimate truths. No angry gods. The solutions are a system of morality based soley on human needs and not invented gota haves like we get from some holybooks. No system we come up with will ever be pefect, but we can come up withsomething that people will agree on more often than not. Human needs are what we all have in common and not the needs of our gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a midnight star Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 DC, and a Midnight Star... Great posts. Everytime I think I've arrived, someone like one of you comes along and reminds me that I haven't. It's quite humbling, and I thank you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thank you. You did notice that she didn't answer any of my post didn't you? I wonder if she can or will debate this with someone who knows the bible so much more than she ever wished she did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Thank you. You did notice that she didn't answer any of my post didn't you? I wonder if she can or will debate this with someone who knows the bible so much more than she ever wished she did? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think she will. She has dodged me several times. She has better bible knowlege than I do, yet she can't connect the dots due to her a priori bias that the bible has got to have hidden meanings. I take that back. I know the OT better than her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Damn DC, you could write a book around that! "Human needs our what we all have in common and not the needs of our gods". Or at least make it a 'sig.'. How true. If we be sinners or saints, what is that to a god? Any god that needs his/her ass kissed all of the time isn't much of a god, ey? Mostly the God that is All Powerful, and time has no meaning for Him, because He exists in eternity and outside of time, yet can't stop a madman in Florida from burying a nine year old girl alive after he sexually rapes her over and over and over... Nine years old. Nine years old. NINE YEARS OLD! But if I have an impure thought about my neighbors wife (trust me... where I live that won't happen), then I need to repent or else! In fact, I might be proud to be sent to Hell by a God like that. What's the alternative... to bow down and kiss His 'all powerful' Ass for ever? Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 As to your last post; again, you can't have it both ways. The 'others' were casting out devils In HIS Name...not the name of Baal or some other god. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> BTW Duder, hope you had a great weekend too! So you think his name is Jesus? I think his name was 'holy' ('name' is a way to know and identify something... hollowed be thy name). It seems these others were casting out deceit (demons) in the way to know and identify what is holy... that which is love, pure, and sacred... which is how Jesus was identified. If they had of been using the name 'Jesus', they would of been following him/them... and these disciples would not have been forbading them... as they themselves seemed to the use and encourage the name 'Jesus', didn't they? I think these others never used the name 'Jesus' specifically... nor traveled with him. I have to assume that those doing so had real 'faith', according to the story, otherwise it wouldn't have worked for them. Sceva and his boys proved that in the book of Acts. So of course if they were 'believers' Jesus would stick up for them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Duder, I think that Sceva's son that stood up to perform this 'exorcist' did so to make a 'name' for himself! Even though he used the 'words' in the name of Jesus, to know and identify what is holy... that was NOT his intent. It seems his intent was for others to identify and respect his own ego. That is part of the meaning in which he was discribed as a 'vagabond' Jew. I believe that was why the 'evil spirit' was able to jump on them, causing them to leave naked (no spiritual covering) and wounded (emotionally). Also, when Jesus said 'whoever isn't against us is for us', etc, He was talking to His apostles... that would explain the 'us'. He wasn't talking about any other religious groups, obviously. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think he was talking about his/their message. That was the important part. If you don't mind my asking...are you affiliated with any certain church or 'denomination'? It wouldn't mean you are right or wrong... but it might help me understand your views a little more clearly. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm with no church, nor have I studied any denomination. I just like to study the Bible. I did go to a nondenominational seminary for three years, had a wonderful teacher that didn't seem to promote any religion either... he methodically stripped away my previous belief system in much of the same way it is done here, just shared a few strategies in which to study the Bible, and encouraged us on our own paths... yet challenged our beliefs every step of the way. I think he would of loved this site... had he not passed away three weeks before I finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 If we be sinners or saints, what is that to a god? This might be a cool tatoo. How about my tombstone? I'll steal it from you. hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Mostly the God that is All Powerful, and time has no meaning for Him, because He exists in eternity and outside of time, yet can't stop a madman in Florida from burying a nine year old girl alive after he sexually rapes her over and over and over...Nine years old. Nine years old. NINE YEARS OLD! But if I have an impure thought about my neighbors wife (trust me... where I live that won't happen), then I need to repent or else! I hate to say it but superstitionists with personal gods can't explain the problem of evil in the world. If god would have created us immortal and with the nature to do good only, existence would still be worth living if god kept the secrets of the universe a secrete for us to discover through science and space travel. Life could still be interesting and meaningful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 DC... You can use mine, if I can use yours!! Amanda, Girl, I really think your beliefs are messed up, and although I like your posts, I'm not at all in agreement with you on so many things. I do think you are intelligent, and sincerly believe what you believe, or at least you do on some level, even though you seem to be 'searching'. Would you care to engage in a 'formal debate' on this site? I promise you that I've never done anything like that before, and I would leave it to you, or the readers of this thread, to determine the subject matter based on our posts in this thread (which we have hijacked, I think... sorry Saviour-Machine). I'm sorry to hear about your teacher. Which school was it you went to? Let me know about the debate thingie. Duder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Amanda he methodically stripped away my previous belief system in much of the same way it is done here, just shared a few strategies in which to study the Bible, and encouraged us on our own paths... yet challenged our beliefs every step of the way. I think he would of loved this site... had he not passed away three weeks before I finished. What ever personal theology your elder had is gone and you do not have most of it. You should learn logic first before you set your heart on the bible as something touched by god. You have a good memory and probably are a fast learner. I am still learning and have a long ways to go, but I bet you would speed past me. It would be no great feat. Why not give logic a try and also look from within and build your own theology based on a PERSONAL revelation from god without the bias of holybooks. You can do that without an addiction to ultimate truth unlike the xers. They are junkies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a midnight star Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Duder, I can see I'm a little late here... as I went out of town for the weekend... and Monday too. I did not have access to the internet. You've had some really great posts! 'NO offense' I assure you! And Romans 7 is a great chapter! I especially liked the conclusion... 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve * the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. I personally think there is a way of reconciling the two harmoniously. It is by renewing your mind.(readingand studing the word. Romans 12: 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. It seems that there are many that teach a similar philosophy (path) as Jesus, and it was recognized back then... and Jesus seems to embrace them also... Mr 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. Lu 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. OK lets get the entire scripture in order here: Mark 9: 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. 41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend F30 thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend F31 thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: you did notice that in all those it said "in my or thy name"? Luke 9: 48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. again, my name. Recieves the one who sent me. I doubt very much that Diana sent him, don't you? It seems to me that there is only one way to the Father (Truth) which is by Jesus, the hidden man of the heart... abiding in one's conscience. I think that no one will perish... as I believe we will ALL eventually end up in peace and joy with no one getting any more or any less.I do believe in the Bible cover to cover, in regards to the manuscript from which the King James Version was taken! There seems to me to be underlying messages, and in the process of understanding them they seem to have an inner transformational progression... IMHO. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Luke 13: 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners F35 above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 2 Thess: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Mathew 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Acts 19: 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. 26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; F40 but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. 28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians. Exodus 23: 12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed. 13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Judges 10: 12 The Zidonians also, and the Amalekites, and the Maonites, did oppress you; and ye cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand. 13 Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more. 14 Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation. 15 And the children of Israel said unto the LORD, We have sinned: do thou unto us whatsoever seemeth F72 good unto thee; deliver us only, we pray thee, this day. 16 And they put away the strange F73 gods from among them, and served the LORD: and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel. NO the bible does not teach that you can have other gods or that there is salvation in any other path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a midnight star Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 do you have any idea what the word demon is actually translated from? I thought you studied the word orgins? The word demon is from the Greek daimon meaning spirit or divine power that may either be good or bad. How in the world did you come up with deceit? Here is a slightly different definition, but it is still a spirit: dai·mon (dmn) KEY also de·mon or dae·mon (dmn) KEY NOUN: Greek Mythology An inferior deity, such as a deified hero. An attendant spirit; a genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 do you have any idea what the word demon is actually translated from? I thought you studied the word orgins? The word demon is from the Greek daimon meaning spirit or divine power that may either be good or bad. How in the world did you come up with deceit? Here is a slightly different definition, but it is still a spirit: dai·mon (dmn) KEY also de·mon or dae·mon (dmn) KEY NOUN: Greek Mythology An inferior deity, such as a deified hero. An attendant spirit; a genius. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Obviously she is experimenting and has no real "methods". So she has no real discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a midnight star Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 she has no idea of what she thinks she is talking about. She has yet to speak one word (that I have found) that is supported by the bible. Amanda, Still waiting. Can you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Amanda, Even though I may agree with some of those who post here... It doesn't mean that I agree or disagree, although (sorry guys) I do disagree with some of their more...hmmm... more salty responses, or attitudes. Amanda; will you meet me in the Arena? There we can both lay down our souls in a do or die debate. At the least we could understand each other more. This isn't a 'setup' and if you aren't interested, fine. But if not there, then where? Your call, woman, I want to meet you somewhere. ???? Let's prove each other right, or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 OK lets get the entire scripture in order here: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Midnight Star, too bad you didn't use my entire post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Would you care to engage in a 'formal debate' on this site? I promise you that I've never done anything like that before, and I would leave it to you, or the readers of this thread, to determine the subject matter based on our posts in this thread (which we have hijacked, I think... sorry Saviour-Machine). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Duder, I was just in the last formal dabate! Maybe its time for me to give someone else the 'opportunity' to participate? I am not equipped to debate about 'anything' anyone chooses! Biblical history is a big weakness, and other parts too. I really enjoy discourse with you immensely, so far, certainly NOT because you agree with me... moreso in your sophisticated style of communicating in a diplomatic manner. That is an art! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 DC, I am curious to know... what are your solutions and methods you recommend to these problems of the world? How would you transform the people to conform to a respectful behavior and who will determine what is respectful? Could you please share them with us in a manner that says what they 'are' instead of what they 'are not'? I personally do not like 'religion'. Do you think the answer is to get rid of ALL beliefs in God/spirituality... and then what? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Duder, I was just in the last formal dabate! Maybe its time for me to give someone else the 'opportunity' to participate? I am not equipped to debate about 'anything' anyone chooses! Biblical history is a big weakness, and other parts too. I really enjoy discourse with you immensely, so far, certainly NOT because you agree with me... moreso in your sophisticated style of communicating in a diplomatic manner. That is an art! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> NUH UH! Slingin insults is an art too! I am teh mastah!!111!! You have been 0wn3d!111!111!! Hehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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