The Specious Love Of God

[Vigile]

You ask me to prove gods feeling, that he is love, but you say i cant use my feelings as proof because feelings arent proovable. how can i win?

 

 

Maddie, by your logic heroin is the greatest source of truth and love that exists. Surely you know that a shot of heroin floods the soul with a much more intense euphoria than you could ever get standing in church with your hands in the air singing How Great Thou Art.

 

Feelings are not proof. Feelings can be generated and manipulated.

 

My my but you aren't one of the most naive little christ lambs that has wondered in amongst this pack of wolves in a long time. I'm sure your faith will get you through with your paradigm completely in tact as you finally dust off your feet and throw up your hands in frustration that we poor evil sinners are just too hard hearted to get your message of love. *yawn*

[Guest JP]

i saw a thing on discovery channel or something about how they were alive at one time, but were probably more like a large goat then a horse. look i dont make the truth, i just know that the bible says there are unicorns so I know they are out there somewhere, or they were. but thats not the point the point is that god does exist and its obvious.

 

I just sent this quote to "Fundies Say the Darndest Things." I nearly fell out of my chair on this one.

[Astreja]

drugs may replicate a facsimile of ecstasy but they can never compare to the feeling of being right with the creator, your true father.

You do know, Maddie, that "spiritual" sensations, near-death experiences and similar phenomena can be triggered by stimulating certain areas of the brain? Details here.

[Guest JP]

drugs may replicate a facsimile of ecstasy but they can never compare to the feeling of being right with the creator, your true father.

 

And do fathers usually throw their kids into wood-burning stoves, Maddie? When men do that, they go to prison. When God does it, we call him worthy of worship.

[Guest JP]

The quote I submitted to 'Fundies Say the Darndest Things' made it in...click my sig for the link and scroll down to the bottom.

[Fweethawt]

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Sorry, JP. That was me. You might want to tell them the quote isn't real.

[Checkmate]

Sorry, JP. That was me. You might want to tell them the quote isn't real.

BASTARD!!! "I'll get you for this my pretty! AND YOUR LITTLE DOG, TOO!"

 

I should have known it was a spoofer! But to be honest, it's hard to tell. I've heard/read actual people speak like this.

 

Still..."YOU BASTARD!!!" (Picture John Cleese in "Fawlty Towers", if you can. It'll be funnier that way.)

[Guest JP]

Shiva, you bastard! You totally fooled me. But the sad thing is, those comments are just like the ones on the 'Fundies Say the Darndest Things' page. I think they're funny...so I'm not gonna tell them about it!

[Ouroboros]

So it was confirmed then. Maddie was a demon! (=none existing entity)

[Checkmate]

Bump.

 

Absolutely amazing. This thread is three days old and not one REAL Christian™ has bothered to post and defend their god, or their rationale for his "love". Why not? In all the other threads they can't WAIT to boast and brag about their "god of love". Now all of a sudden, the cat's got their tongues.

 

Fucking typical.

[Vixentrox]

It's becuase they afraid to face that thier god is a butchering beast.

[Lycorth]

Pity - I was hoping at least one zombie would come on here and groan for Jeezus™.

 

Or maybe we've given them too much to think about, and they're rethinking their positions

 

Or they just ran like pussies

[Gaunilon]

I'll take on your philosophical point Solo:

 

"The last couple of days I've realized there's no argument for God being moral or good in any sense.

Very logically, if God created morals (or the rules for good actions), then moral didn't exist before he created it, and God is not moral himself."

 

If the deity created morals, you'd be right. But that's not the only option for the origin of morality, nor is it what Christianity has historically taught.

Christianity teaches that (a) evil is the absence of good, and (b ) good is the same as being, and (c ) the deity is the source of all being. Therefore the deity is perfectly good by nature, and morality is just the extent to which actions correspond to this nature.

 

So there is an argument for the deity being moral/good.

[Ouroboros]

I agree. My comment was a response to a statement from another Christian on this site some days ago.

 

And if God is good/moral from infinity, and good/moral was never created, then it is a law or boundaries that God have to obey too.

 

And secondly, the non-good or non-moral, have existed always too. Which is saying, evil have existed as long as good.

 

Good and evil have co-existed forever.

[Gaunilon]

"And if God is good/moral from infinity, and good/moral was never created, then it is a law or boundaries that God have to obey too."

Quite so. If it's part of divine nature than the deity is bound by it.

 

"And secondly, the non-good or non-moral, have existed always too. "

No, because if goodness is being, and evil is privation, then when the perfect deity was the sole being there would have been no evil. Also immediately after a perfect creation there would have been no evil. Evil could only have been introduced if someone decided to choose a lesser good over a greater one, thus rejecting some measure of goodness.

[Ouroboros]

Doesn't make sense.

 

If good always existed, and evil is the privation of the same, are you saying privation didn't exist before creation? How can that be? And what is the argument or logical reason for that?

 

NULL is the privation of n, and n always existed, shouldn't NULL always have existed as well?

 

Is the argument that Nothing didn't exist before Nothing existed, but Nothing now exists when Something exists?

 

---edit---

 

And you say "when God was sole being", he was sole and only good and therefor evil didn't exist. Do you mean the evil only exists when the Non-good has taken form as a being? It can only exist if it has an agent to execute the non-good? Wouldn't that make evil nothing more than an entity and not just an attribute?

[Gaunilon]

Good questions.

Evil isn't just non-being in the general sense. Evil is non-being in the sense that it is the lack of something that belongs to a being by nature. For example, a blind eye is bad because eyes are (by nature) for seeing. On the other hand, a rock that can't see is not bad because rocks aren't (by nature) the kind of things that have sight.

 

So a perfect deity lacks nothing of divine nature. If nothing else exists, then nothing else lacks anything according to its nature either. So evil would not have existed prior to, or immediately following, creation. Evil would have had to be introduced by someone deliberately choosing to maim something.

[Vigile]

Good questions.

Evil isn't just non-being in the general sense. Evil is non-being in the sense that it is the lack of something that belongs to a being by nature. For example, a blind eye is bad because eyes are (by nature) for seeing. On the other hand, a rock that can't see is not bad because rocks aren't (by nature) the kind of things that have sight.

 

So a perfect deity lacks nothing of divine nature. If nothing else exists, then nothing else lacks anything according to its nature either. So evil would not have existed prior to, or immediately following, creation. Evil would have had to be introduced by someone deliberately choosing to maim something.

 

Totally contrived. Good and evil are relative terms.

[Checkmate]

I'll take on your philosophical point Solo:

.............

Of course you'll take on HanSolo's "philosophical point", Gaunilon. So much more gray area to play around with. Everything is so much more fluid in THAT realm. Nothing can be nailed down.

 

Unfortunately for you, THIS IS MY THREAD! I want and DEMAND all participants to "take on" MY OP!

 

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW GOD IS LOVE since "he" is also a torturer and a mass murderer?!?

 

Away with you and your philosophical sophistries and double speak. I want CONCRETE answers. And if you can't give one, then get the fuck off of my thread. I fucking despise philosophy almost as much as I hate religion. Too fucking much foo-foo subjective interpretations and opinions that CAN'T be definitive and are always grasped loosely. Absolutely worthless to me.

 

 

*sigh* I suppose I can simply claim yet another victory, since you Christian's obviously don't have an answer for me.

 

Your "god" is an amoral monster, above all concepts of right and wrong, and therefore is NOT "loving" in any sense of the word. Ergo: Christianity is founded upon a Great Fucking LIE!! And we are all correct in rejecting your monster-god.

 

Thank you, and good day.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

You may thank your personal philosophy for your victory.

[Golden Meadows]

I'll take on your philosophical point Solo:

.............

Of course you'll take on HanSolo's "philosophical point", Gaunilon. So much more gray area to play around with. Everything is so much more fluid in THAT realm. Nothing can be nailed down.

It seems to me xtian philosophers starts of with the assumption that their god is good therefore everything, especially language, has to be twisted and bent to fit.

 

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW GOD IS LOVE since "he" is also a torturer and a mass murderer?!?

You are not playing the game, see above point.

 

Away with you and your philosophical sophistries and double speak.

You would be as well saying "away with xtianity".

 

I want CONCRETE answers.

Sorry thats not allowed, see first point.

 

And if you can't give one, then get the fuck off of my thread. I fucking despise philosophy almost as much as I hate religion. Too fucking much foo-foo subjective interpretations and opinions that CAN'T be definitive and are always grasped loosely. Absolutely worthless to me.

But it does help give a veneer of respectability to a monster God and a religion of hate.

 

 

Your "god" is an amoral monster, above all concepts of right and wrong, and therefore is NOT "loving" in any sense of the word. Ergo: Christianity is founded upon a Great Fucking LIE!! And we are all correct in rejecting your monster-god.

There you go using everyday language that ordinary people can understand, your never going to be a philosopher, not a xtian one anyway. Ignorance is bliss and its important to keep xtians in that state to avoid dealing with the little problem of the devil they worship.

 

Thank you, and good day.

[Asimov]

Just for fun, let's try this, and see how many of our visiting Christians will/can respond. (I've got five bucks that says they don't take the bait/challenge! )

 

Lately it seems that every thread is hi-jacked inevitably by the “love of God/Jesus” argument from Christians. So I thought it only appropriate to dedicate an entire thread to the subject.

 

Is the God of the Bible™ a “loving God” or is he the “devil of hell”?

 

He kills because he loves....duh!

[Lycorth]

So a perfect deity lacks nothing of divine nature. If nothing else exists, then nothing else lacks anything according to its nature either. So evil would not have existed prior to, or immediately following, creation. Evil would have had to be introduced by someone deliberately choosing to maim something.

 

Yet how can a perfect god possibly create beings who will instigate evil and bring it into the world? Shouldn't said god's perfection cause him only to create perfect beings according to his will and nature?

 

The only conclusions are that the Abrahamic deity is either imperfect, contrary to depictions of him in Scripchah™, or doesn't exist.

[Ouroboros]

I will try to lay out the conflict of definitions between good and evil:

 

A person is good if that person do good things.

 

God is good only because he is God and what he does has nothing to do with it, because whatever he does is considered good.

 

As you can see, two different definitions of good.

 

A person that is evil is a person that do evil things.

 

The Devil is evil because he is the devil, not because of what he does.

 

 

 

If God made the katrina hurricane, then the hurricane was good.

 

If the Devil made the Katrina Hurricane, then the hurricane was evil.

 

If Bob help someone in need, then Bob is good.

 

If Bob shoot someone, then Bob is evil.

 

But if Bob shoot someone that was going to shoot someone else, then Bob is good.

 

But if Bob shoot someone that was going to shoot someone that was going to bomb a building full of people, then Bob is evil.

 

And if God did anything Bob did, then all of those things are good. And if the Devil did anything the Bob did, then all of those things are evil.

 

In the end, how the heck could we ever know if it was God or the Devil doing something? When things happen, we have no clue if it is good or evil!

 

----

 

Problem with creation of Evil:

 

God existed always - and was good before creation - but evil didn't exist

 

God created the Devil = and evil existed

 

Either Evil always have existed as an opposite to Good and as an attribute and not an object, or it was created by God, or created by the Devil. I can't see any other options. Evil didn't just pop up from thin air, just because there were a new player in town. Cause and Event is the Christians favorite argument for God vs Big Bang, so it should logically be applied here too. Evil was caused by something. By Which god? The good god or the evil god?