Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I just read an old thread by HanSolo and it inspired me to pray: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=3393 Wow! How far back have you scanned the topics? I had totally forgotten about it... well, I usually forget what I did 5 minutes ago anyway... I think I know God's favorite answer: Maybe. Think about it, it's the perfect and absolute answer. God, can I have an icecream? Maybe God, can I win a million bucks on lotto? Maybe God, do I look fat? Maybe God, do you exist? Maybe You see, it's perfect! Oh, and of course God, do you love me? Maybe And God, are you perfect Maybe --- Now, I'm going to write the word "Maybe" on a sticky note, put it up on the wall, get down on my knees, bow down and pray to the Holy Sticky Note. It gives me the same perfect answers that God does. And give thanks for the Church of Post-it that brougth the message of the Holy Sticky Note to this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I just read an old thread by HanSolo and it inspired me to pray: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=3393 God... lord our father who art in heaven o praise him hallelujah... I pray that another house in this world be broken into. I pray that another family gets broken up due to adultery, alcohol, fights, etc. Please let another child starve. I also ask that you let more people die in wars today. If able to, let oppression run rapant around the world. I know it's in your power, but can you let more people suffer and die from terrible disasters? In Jesus' name i pray.... Amen. Will my prayers be answered? The bible did say if i pray in Jesus' name, it will be done. If they are answered, does that show us God's love? thats messed up dude. Not really. Listen. If you would pray for a hurricane to hit a place, and the hurricane happens, did it do it because of pure chance and coincident or because of answered prayers? If it was because of coincident, why can't praying for a person who has a cold to get well and he heals in 3 days instead of 7 days be a coincident too? But if it is a prayer answer, does it prove that God answers all prayers we send to him, or that his consciousness allows him to break moral laws? It can't be that he always answers our prayers, that much we know, so is it that God isn't "good" by the same standards that we have? If so, if God isn't "good" by our standards, then "good" doesn't have any standards. And this goes also with the discussion about Jesus breaking the law by working on Sabbath. If he is allowed to break the laws because he's the son of God, then why is the phrase "he was without sin" a proof that he was son of God? Does it means that even if Jesus had killed someone it would not be a sin, just because he was Jesus? Does it really mean that Jesus could sin as much as he wanted, because he claimed to be son of God? If God is above morals and sin, at least Jesus human part was not, and the human part of Jesus was not without sin and hence not a pure sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Hey Mr. Grinch, don't you think in the end a lot of christians - fundies, at least - rely on experiences that they think are not caused by their own emotion but by God? To wit: 1."I know Jesus/God is real because I experience Him in my life" in such and such a way 2. "I know J/G is real because of the following miracles that I a. saw with my own eyes (rare, actually) b. heard about" These fundies dismiss all your arguments and all the holes you poke in the Bible by just appealing to a special experience, the truth of which they take as directly evident. It's the approach that is taken at the end of the movie The Hiding Place that came out thirty years or so ago, i.e. "We can't answer your questions but we know the Lord is real..." Then they lead back to changed lives, miracles, answered prayers, etc. They simply brush counterexamples away by saying the positive examples are all they need. How do you go beyond saying, "you don't convince me," and begin to convince them of their error when they think "the man with the experience is never at the mercy of the man with the argument?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 How do you answer such people beyond telling them they're retards (which they are)? The only way is to teach them to think and take them out of the dark place of ignorance and irrationality. But many don't want to. What's funny is that the "wide and open road" is religion and blind faith, while rationality and reason is the narrow road. The truth will set them free, and truth hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 whoa, Han, you got in there fast! I was just giving a little edit to my post to Grinch and you answered the earlier version. Can't quibble with your answer, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 i promise i don't look at you as mad angry people spitting and cursing. except good ole mr. grinch. he has some serious anger issues. Could be. Or maybe, this is the online persona he chose for himself when dealing with christians on message boards, and in real life he's the nicest person ever. Who knows? It's all a mystery on the web... Shhh, Asuryan! Don't give away my trade secrets! My "evil" on-line persona keeps Christians disoriented, plus it exposes their lack of love, and their penchant to judge others rather than forgive. Now let me get back into character. A-hem!.... "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT INTELLIGENT ITALIAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN! I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL GRINCH!!! FEAR ME AND PISS IN YOUR PANTS!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 whoa, Han, you got in there fast! I was just giving a little edit to my post to Grinch and you answered the earlier version. Can't quibble with your answer, though! That's our HanSolo! Fastest "Reply" Button on the Web! Although I WILL "quibble" with his answer. (I wouldn't be the Grinch if I didn't. ) My answer runs along the lines of, "You can lead a Christian to rational thought, but you can't make them think." Christians, as we have observed both here and in real life, exalt Experience above all else. They actually believe that maintaining Faith in spite of Reason is a virtue. They believe their god rewards their mindless faith. How CAN you argue with that? You can't. Therefore I don't try. I either ignore them, or insult them if they persist in being stupid. They leave me no other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 How do you answer such people beyond telling them they're retards (which they are)? The only way is to teach them to think and take them out of the dark place of ignorance and irrationality. But many don't want to. What's funny is that the "wide and open road" is religion and blind faith, while rationality and reason is the narrow road. The truth will set them free, and truth hurts. first how will the truth set you free, i feel free, as i feel forgiven for all the wrong doings in my life. and the famous qoute from DMX, "preacher telling the truth and it hurts." what's more offensive. you are going to burn in hell if you don't repent, or there is no hell or God? Mr. grinch, i hold no grudges to you, why do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Since I've been on your side, and now am on this side... I'm more free now. I have the freedom to do the right things and live a moral life, because that's the person I am, not because someone tells me how to live. I can finally think and reason to why and how things are done, not being told by someone else. That is freedom of mind and life. And "you are going to burn in hell if you don't repent" is extremely offensive. "There is no Hell or God" is a relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 what's more offensive. you are going to burn in hell if you don't repent, or there is no hell or God? The first of these is the only one of the two that is offensive. It is directed at the person you're talking to. "You" are going to burn in hell - you're talking to another human being and saying that person's moral and values are shit. The second is a position about the universe in general. It demands to be discussed on the merits of the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Since I've been on your side, and now am on this side... I'm more free now. I have the freedom to do the right things and live a moral life, because that's the person I am, not because someone tells me how to live. I can finally think and reason to why and how things are done, not being told by someone else. That is freedom of mind and life. And "you are going to burn in hell if you don't repent" is extremely offensive. "There is no Hell or God" is a relief. that is the difference between our beliefs, i would have no peace being an athiest. i think this life is just a small portion of what is in store for us. RHEMtron: would you agree with me if i said that this whole argument is based on the fact you don't find God's judgement just and fair. from what i read you hate him because he pronounced judgement and called upon the flood and genocides. i can't prove God is Love. it states it in the bible, and i have fiath that it is the word of God. so i believe it to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 that is the difference between our beliefs, i would have no peace being an athiest. i think this life is just a small portion of what is in store for us. I used to think that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 i can't prove God is Love. it states it in the bible, and i have fiath that it is the word of God. so i believe it to be true. And there's the flaw in your argument. It's in the bible-->you think the bible is from god-->you think the bible is true. So anything in the bible is true. The problem with this is people have pointed out the bad things in the bible and you've simply ignored them or handwaived them away instead sticking to the "god is love" line. God hated Esaua (SP?) in the womb. Explain that. It gives no reason at all and yet it's there for all to see. God clearly hates for no reason. God orders an illegal census (elsewhere it says Satan does it...god and Satan are equated for the same event). David does the census (what choice does he have?). God punishes the innocent people of Israel because a census was performed. Is this justice by anyone's definition? If god ordered the census then god was at fault. If Satan did (even though he *is* god's servent in the OT and not a rebel) then Satan was at fault. If David knew god did not want the census but did it anyway then David was at fault and he alone should be punished even though he was likely tricked and mercy could be offered. But punishing the people of Israel for god's, Satan's or David's error is in absolutely NO WAY justice on any level. You can't just hand wave it away with "god's ways aren't our ways" or any of that bullshit either. So explain this "love" and "justice" god shows in these examples. So there you go. I've given this example before but it never gets a response. The bible is true. This is from the bible. This is a true example of god's perfect justice and mercy. This is an example of what you can look forward to on judgement day. Are you ready? Is this the kind of perfect justice you want? The NT says similar you know? You can perform miracles in jesus' name and he will still spit you out and claim he didn't know you. There is no way to know what this god will do. So walk this earth thinking that you're doing it all by the book. Feel that HS working deep inside you and when this god looks at you from his throne be assured that you have this type of "justice" waiting for you. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 You dont have to be atheist. Just because someone doesnt believe in your beliefs, that doesnt make them an atheist. You can still be a theist, deist, and/or agnostic. The only way to gain peace is to first gain peace with yourself. No need to believe youre a bad person who needs to be forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 What's so bad about being an atheist? (Oh, I know! Christians automatically believe that being without god is to be lost and evil and miserable. Talk about an unhealthy minset. ) I'm an atheist, and I've gotta say it's the best! I can live as I choose, doing good, having fun, treating people of ALL backgrounds decently as they deserve and I DON'T waste my time worrying and looking over my shoulder for the disapproving looks of any "god". And best of all, I don't have any neurotic COMMANDS telling me to "share" my atheism. I can rest easy. My mind and my life are my own. I'm FREE to enjoy what this world has to offer, knowing that this is the ONLY shot at the brass ring that I'm gonna get. Life is GOOD. So...tell me again...what's wrong with being an atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 i can't prove God is Love. it states it in the bible, and i have fiath that it is the word of God. so i believe it to be true. And there's the flaw in your argument. It's in the bible-->you think the bible is from god-->you think the bible is true. So anything in the bible is true. The problem with this is people have pointed out the bad things in the bible and you've simply ignored them or handwaived them away instead sticking to the "god is love" line. God hated Esaua (SP?) in the womb. Explain that. It gives no reason at all and yet it's there for all to see. God clearly hates for no reason. God orders an illegal census (elsewhere it says Satan does it...god and Satan are equated for the same event). David does the census (what choice does he have?). God punishes the innocent people of Israel because a census was performed. Is this justice by anyone's definition? If god ordered the census then god was at fault. If Satan did (even though he *is* god's servent in the OT and not a rebel) then Satan was at fault. If David knew god did not want the census but did it anyway then David was at fault and he alone should be punished even though he was likely tricked and mercy could be offered. But punishing the people of Israel for god's, Satan's or David's error is in absolutely NO WAY justice on any level. You can't just hand wave it away with "god's ways aren't our ways" or any of that bullshit either. So explain this "love" and "justice" god shows in these examples. So there you go. I've given this example before but it never gets a response. The bible is true. This is from the bible. This is a true example of god's perfect justice and mercy. This is an example of what you can look forward to on judgement day. Are you ready? Is this the kind of perfect justice you want? The NT says similar you know? You can perform miracles in jesus' name and he will still spit you out and claim he didn't know you. There is no way to know what this god will do. So walk this earth thinking that you're doing it all by the book. Feel that HS working deep inside you and when this god looks at you from his throne be assured that you have this type of "justice" waiting for you. mwc correct me if i am wrong, i am at work and don't have a bible handy, but i don't remember God ordering the census, just punishing David for not trusting him and taking a census. You dont have to be atheist. Just because someone doesnt believe in your beliefs, that doesnt make them an atheist. You can still be a theist, deist, and/or agnostic. The only way to gain peace is to first gain peace with yourself. No need to believe youre a bad person who needs to be forgiven. i am sorry, i was just grouping, i am very guilty of doing this. What's so bad about being an atheist? (Oh, I know! Christians automatically believe that being without god is to be lost and evil and miserable. Talk about an unhealthy minset. ) I'm an atheist, and I've gotta say it's the best! I can live as I choose, doing good, having fun, treating people of ALL backgrounds decently as they deserve and I DON'T waste my time worrying and looking over my shoulder for the disapproving looks of any "god". And best of all, I don't have any neurotic COMMANDS telling me to "share" my atheism. I can rest easy. My mind and my life are my own. I'm FREE to enjoy what this world has to offer, knowing that this is the ONLY shot at the brass ring that I'm gonna get. Life is GOOD. So...tell me again...what's wrong with being an atheist? nothing wrong with it, it is your own choice. i am glad you are happy with your life. i am happy with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 correct me if i am wrong, i am at work and don't have a bible handy, but i don't remember God ordering the census, just punishing David for not trusting him and taking a census. You're wrong. II Samuel 24 KJV 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. UNLESS, of course you choose to ignore that as an ERROR and go with this rendention... I Chronicles 21 KJV 1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. So who moved David? God or Satan? And why were the PEOPLE of Israel punished instead of David? edited to add: Oh, and just to show you there's no hard feelings from this "evil atheist", here is an internet Bible source since you're at work without a Bible (shame on you!)...http://www.biblegateway.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I just want to go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 correct me if i am wrong, i am at work and don't have a bible handy, but i don't remember God ordering the census, just punishing David for not trusting him and taking a census. You're wrong. II Samuel 24 KJV 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. UNLESS, of course you choose to ignore that as an ERROR and go with this rendention... I Chronicles 21 KJV 1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. So who moved David? God or Satan? And why were the PEOPLE of Israel punished instead of David? edited to add: Oh, and just to show you there's no hard feelings from this "evil atheist", here is an internet Bible source since you're at work without a Bible (shame on you!)...http://www.biblegateway.com/ wow, i have never noticed that, thank you for pointing that out. in the first one, it says God is angry at the people, the second says satan has caused the reason for the first one. the latter part of the sentence i will work backwards, satan intices david to number, and the Lord is moving david against the people because he is angry with them. see in the first one, he moves david against the wicked of isreal, not to number. this is my own thoughts, i will look it up in some books i have at home to confirm this. honnestly mr. grinch. i have no hard feelings towards you, but i do not appriciate threats, you can call me stupid all day, it doesn't bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Freeday, I think you're missing the point. God enticed/moved/"provoked" David to number the people. Satan provoked/"enticed" David to number the people. --edit-- Oh, and this is lovely! 1 Chron 21:7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing." 9 The Lord said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'" 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the Lord says:... Not only did God punish Israel (the people) for what David did, but... God gave a message to a psychic!!! Wow! Well granted that the word "seer" can also be translated "prophet", but still, it also means "vision teller" or in our today's words Psychic. There is no difference between a "God's prophet" in TV and a Psychic on TV. They try to interpret "spiritual" vision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Freeday, I think you're missing the point. God enticed/moved/"provoked" David to number the people. Satan provoked/"enticed" David to number the people. --edit-- Oh, and this is lovely! 1 Chron 21:7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, "I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing." 9 The Lord said to Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'" 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the Lord says:... Not only did God punish Israel (the people) for what David did, but... God gave a message to a psychic!!! Wow! Well granted that the word "seer" can also be translated "prophet", but still, it also means "vision teller" or in our today's words Psychic. There is no difference between a "God's prophet" in TV and a Psychic on TV. They try to interpret "spiritual" vision it was a common occurance in the OT for God to comunicate to his people through prophets. most of the time the prophets were giving an unwelcome message, where as phychics tell you what you want to hear. i don't buy into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Nah, both wants to make money on people's superstition and guillability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluescreen Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Freeday - Regardless of whether the Devil or Yahweh enticed David to perform the sentence, there's still a big, fat problem of justice - namely, how is punishing 70,000 OTHER people for David's sin fair? Wouldn't you agree that a judge who ordered an innocent involuntarily punished (no trying to play the Christ-card of voluntary substitution here) for a guilty man's crimes to be an unjust bastard? If the Devil made David take the census, then David's a VICTIM of the Devil and shouldn't be punished, Satan should be. If Yahweh made David take the census, then David's still a victim - his will was under the control of another being. If the whole Yahweh/Satan "made" David do it thing is some obscure figure of speech and David really did it because he didn't trust God (your current argument), then *David* is the criminal and should be punished, not the 70,000 innocent Israelites who are caught in the crossfire of this little pissing match. See what I'm getting at here? How is killing innocent people for a guilty man's actions love? Maybe it's love for the GUILTY man, but then we have a lack of love for the dead innocents, and what sure looks like God being a "respecter of persons." And don't say that the 70,000 people weren't innocent - David himself admits they were innocent and he was guilty. See 2 Samuel 24:17. The jerk offers his innocent family up to be punished with him as a bonus. What a great king. Incidentally, don't forget that this isn't the first time that Yahweh lets David off the hook for doing something bad - David murders Uriah and takes his wife, Bathsheba. Then Yahweh kills their innocent son years later as punishment for *David's* murder. Thus, the dead kid is slapped with capital punishment, David gets away with sin again. A sin that he never made an offering to atone for (check 2 Samuel 12:1 - 12:22). Hey! In rereading the Uriah/Bathsheba story, it's worse than I thought. The reason given for the little kid's death is that David's wicked act "has given the enemies of the LORD great opportunity to despise and blaspheme Him, so your child will die." (2 Samuel 12:13) So no one seems to give a shit that Uriah was murdered, Yahweh's just pissed that David made him look bad. Nice! So Freeday, how is this loving or just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Freeday - Regardless of whether the Devil or Yahweh enticed David to perform the sentence, there's still a big, fat problem of justice - namely, how is punishing 70,000 OTHER people for David's sin fair? Wouldn't you agree that a judge who ordered an innocent involuntarily punished (no trying to play the Christ-card of voluntary substitution here) for a guilty man's crimes to be an unjust bastard? If the Devil made David take the census, then David's a VICTIM of the Devil and shouldn't be punished, Satan should be. If Yahweh made David take the census, then David's still a victim - his will was under the control of another being. If the whole Yahweh/Satan "made" David do it thing is some obscure figure of speech and David really did it because he didn't trust God (your current argument), then *David* is the criminal and should be punished, not the 70,000 innocent Israelites who are caught in the crossfire of this little pissing match. See what I'm getting at here? How is killing innocent people for a guilty man's actions love? Maybe it's love for the GUILTY man, but then we have a lack of love for the dead innocents, and what sure looks like God being a "respecter of persons." And don't say that the 70,000 people weren't innocent - David himself admits they were innocent and he was guilty. See 2 Samuel 24:17. The jerk offers his innocent family up to be punished with him as a bonus. What a great king. Incidentally, don't forget that this isn't the first time that Yahweh lets David off the hook for doing something bad - David murders Uriah and takes his wife, Bathsheba. Then Yahweh kills their innocent son years later as punishment for *David's* murder. Thus, the dead kid is slapped with capital punishment, David gets away with sin again. A sin that he never made an offering to atone for (check 2 Samuel 12:1 - 12:22). Hey! In rereading the Uriah/Bathsheba story, it's worse than I thought. The reason given for the little kid's death is that David's wicked act "has given the enemies of the LORD great opportunity to despise and blaspheme Him, so your child will die." (2 Samuel 12:13) So no one seems to give a shit that Uriah was murdered, Yahweh's just pissed that David made him look bad. Nice! So Freeday, how is this loving or just? in the first part of the sentence, it says the Lord was angry with isreal. so i don't think they were innocent, which leads me to believe he was testing david, and was going to punish them anyway. think about it, he knew what david would do before he even did it. i am sorry you look at his judgement this way, if you are to believe him to be the creator, then he has the authority to judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 And there shall come a day, when light shall shine upon their heads. And they shall be retards no more. - Fwee-sixteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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