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Abortion...


Lizard
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As a christian I felt it was only okay if women had abortions under extreme circumstances like rape. At times I felt they should never be able to have an abortion.

 

I remember using some beethoven argument I found on the net. It was something about his mom being impoverished, having many kids and no father or something to that nature. The argument goes that if his mom would have had an abortion under those extreme conditions, we would never have the musical genius we know today.

 

As I got more liberal I felt that putting my views on women were unfounded. Who was I to tell women what they should do with their bodies. I'm glad I never had a chance to project my previous views on any women I knew.

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My opinion didn't really change. I secretly felt that abortion had it's place, should be legal, and really wasn't anyone's business anyway.

 

I simply never discussed this topic while among my "bretheren", so I can only assume that they assumed I believed the same way they did.

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Ok, hot button topic for me, so I'll try not to rant too much.

 

I've become a very strong supporter of Pro-Choice. Pregnancies are individual. One woman may not know she is pregnant until she is very far along with almost no impedement to her health, and another woman might be flat on her back in serious pain for nine months. One woman could have little risk to her health, where another woman could be facing death for her hopes to have a child. There is a good chance you'll have a healthy baby, but also a good chance your going to end up with a child who spends it's first and last few hours on Earth in wracking pain. What does this mean? It means that black and white laws are NOT appropriate control in reducing the need for abortions. They do not work. They have never worked. You're going to condemn SOMEBODY to death. A child is NOT more important than an adult. Age is a really shitty factor in determining who lives and who dies.

 

So I believe we should find something other than law as a solution. You're never going to get rid of the need for abortion, but I think the need can be reduced quite dramatically.

 

I also don't believe in that bullshit about abortions "convenience." Abortions are never convenient. They are not fun ways to spend your day. And trying to sum up parenthood as a "convenience" has to be the most disrespectful and patently STUPID thing I've ever heard in my life. To reduce both a woman's life and a potential child's life as a matter of "convenience" is sick, sick, SICK. I have never understood how the loudest anti-choicers who are so vocal about how sacred parenthood is are also the fastest to throw around this term. Same thing with "consequence." You do not EVER consider another human being a "consequence." Whether you are religeous or not, this doesn't fit with a view of civilized society.

 

And having said that, I've learned that abortion doesn't just affect "bad" girls. Or the stupid girls. In fact, most women who go get abortions WERE using protection at the time of conception (I can find the statistics again if anyone wants them to back that up). Shit just happens, and it can happen to anyone. That's life. It's not GAWD's will, it's not "meant to be," it's just what happens when a sperm meets an egg, regardless of who you are or where you come from. There are NO full proof methods of contraception. Women who have had hysterectomies can still get pregnant. It's very, very, rare, but it does happen. It's called an etopic pregnancy and it's either abortion or death for the unlucky person who has one.

 

One of these days, mankind is going to have to wake up and realize we are sexual beings. Sex for recreation is part of what makes us human. If we put as much energy into making sure that doing that safely and with intelligence as we do fighting quibbling over laws that are not helpful in the matter, I think that abortion numbers would go down more dramatically.

 

And no, women who have abortions don't always regret it. Sometimes you don't get any good choices in life. You just get choices. And in that case, you do what you always do and move ahead doing the best you can.

 

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.

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Wow, Lizard, you've hit on a topic that I have problems with, even as an atheist. I believe all human beings are precious and special, even as a newly conceived fetus. And I believe that abortion ultimately has a cheapening effect on the value of a human life. But on the other hand, I'm not, have never been, and will never be, in the position of having to decide whether that new life would be best served by not coming into the world under the circumstances. What a terrible situation that must be. So, in the end, I support the Roe v. Wade decision that under our law, it is the woman's right to make the choice. I see it as a complex moral and ethical dilemma, whether you're religous or not.

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I have to say that I do believe that abortion is considered murdering a human. A human who has done nothing to deserve it.

That said I don't believe that abortion is rated the same as murder of a child or adult-the reason is because having one only hurts one innocent person-the baby-whereas killing an adult hurts all the adults friends and family as well.

I also realize that sometimes abortion can stop a child from having a bad life.

I would feel bad about having one.

I also believe that it is the womans right to make the choice-but for me I think I would not feel good about murdering someone.

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Did my views change on abortion? For the most part, no- I'm still very much against it even though my view does not have a religious basis anymore. The one instance where I support it is when the mother's life is in danger, and continuation of the pregnancy would result in her death. I just don't feel it's right to leave one's existing children motherless in this instance, if they already exist. I've imagined myself in this scenario and explaining it to an older child. I envision him/her sobbing and saying, "I don't want you to die, Mommy!" Breaks my heart just thinking about it. :( And yet, Catholicism says that abortion is wrong even in this instance. Stupid fuckheads! :vent:

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I have to say that I do believe that abortion is considered murdering a human. A human who has done nothing to deserve it.

That said I don't believe that abortion is rated the same as murder of a child or adult-the reason is because having one only hurts one innocent person-the baby-whereas killing an adult hurts all the adults friends and family as well.

I also realize that sometimes abortion can stop a child from having a bad life.

I would feel bad about having one.

I also believe that it is the womans right to make the choice-but for me I think I would not feel good about murdering someone.

 

 

You think the mother who carried that baby doesn't hurt?

 

What defines a "human?" What makes it so sacred?

 

 

I say abortion before 10 weeks is perfectly acceptable. Embryos don't develop neurons until then. It literally is a piece of tissue to me. Yeah, it has potential, but I would be lying to myself if I thought that this means it could suffer in any way from my decision. It's a question that can be solved by science, IMO. Most women know they are pregnant by then, and you can still get a medical abortion at that stage.

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That said I don't believe that abortion is rated the same as murder of a child or adult-the reason is because having one only hurts one innocent person-the baby-whereas killing an adult hurts all the adults friends and family as well.

 

 

I think an abortion hurts more than just the fetus. In many instances, it hurts the aborted child's parents as well.

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You think the mother who carried that baby doesn't hurt?

 

I say abortion before 10 weeks is perfectly acceptable. Embryos don't develop neurons until then. It literally is a piece of tissue to me. Yeah, it has potential, but I would be lying to myself if I thought that this means it could suffer in any way from my decision. It's a question that can be solved by science, IMO. Most women know they are pregnant by then, and you can still get a medical abortion at that stage.

Yes, I think the mother hurts, but alot of times a person who has just commited another murder hurts as well. Unless the have antisocial disorder.

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You think the mother who carried that baby doesn't hurt?

 

I say abortion before 10 weeks is perfectly acceptable. Embryos don't develop neurons until then. It literally is a piece of tissue to me. Yeah, it has potential, but I would be lying to myself if I thought that this means it could suffer in any way from my decision. It's a question that can be solved by science, IMO. Most women know they are pregnant by then, and you can still get a medical abortion at that stage.

Yes, I think the mother hurts, but alot of times a person who has just commited another murder hurts as well. Unless the have antisocial disorder.

 

What defines "human" and what makes this humanness of something that can't even think or feel pain so sacred over all other animals?

 

 

 

Yes, I think the mother hurts, but alot of times a person who has just commited another murder hurts as well. Unless the have antisocial disorder.

 

I am not sure you understand what I was saying... this is often a very difficult decision for her, but it is calculated and most women are sure they are doing the best thing for their circumstances. To assume they feel bad because they know what they did is wrong is short-sighted.

 

She feels more pain over the fact that she might have liked to see it grow up, or if she believes it has a soul, she fears rejection when they die and meet eachother again (it's her reality, even though we know that's probably not the cas).

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Did my position change from when I was Xian?

 

Not exactly.

 

I have always been pro-choice, from the moment I first learned what abortion was at the age of about 13 or so. (And no, not because I had to have one, I just learned what they were then.) I was moderately pro-choice at the time, which wasn't really okay in my mother's fairly conservative household.

 

It was less okay when she converted to Xianity when I was 15 or so, though oddly enough she had a pamphlet on abortion by one of her favorite apologeticists (Dr. Walter Martin) that made the argument that being pro-choice in a limited way was actually Biblically okay, contrary to what hardcore rabid anti-choicers claimed. So that was the position she adopted.

 

I converted a little bit after she did, and adopted her positions too, for a variety of rather sad reasons. It was just safer to do so, really. But the truth is that I never really dropped my pro-choice stance, it just went underground and I hid it for a number of years.

 

Then I grew up, left Xianity, and broadened my position on a lot of things, abortion included. I'm still fundamentally pro-choice, but am much more radical about it than before. In fact I would probably offend even a lot of pro-choice people with how unapologetically pro-choice I am, since I tend to be in favor of abortion on demand with no guilt and no shame, except in a very limited set of circumstances.

 

I also tend to be very pro-birth control of all kinds, and pro-people-not-being-dipshits-about-sex-and-reproduction. (This abstinence-only sex ed crap is just bullshit. People need to fucking get real, and get real fucking.)

 

Anyway. That's where I'm at.

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Up to a certain point, let's say the first trimester or 12 week period, I think there is an acceptable time when a woman can have an abortion. After that point, she's already beginning to show signs. She must know that she's pregnant and therefore she's made a choice to keep the baby if she hasn't aborted it by then.

 

There's absolutely no reason to not get an abortion before then. Since most abortions happen before that time anyways, great.

 

My stance has wavered between when it is appropriate and acceptable to have an abortion.

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Up to a certain point, let's say the first trimester or 12 week period, I think there is an acceptable time when a woman can have an abortion. After that point, she's already beginning to show signs. She must know that she's pregnant and therefore she's made a choice to keep the baby if she hasn't aborted it by then.

 

There's absolutely no reason to not get an abortion before then. Since most abortions happen before that time anyways, great.

 

My stance has wavered between when it is appropriate and acceptable to have an abortion.

 

 

That describes my thinking as well. But some women really do have no idea what a pregnancy is like. My mom was an OB/GYN nurse and would tell me stories of women didn't know they were pregnant... like developmentally disabled adults, and women who were obese enough to hide it from themselves and others. :)

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My stance has wavered between when it is appropriate and acceptable to have an abortion.
Same here. Sometimes it seems to be based on what the fetus looks like more than anything else. It's also hard to figure out what criteria to go by.

So I'm just going to do my best to avoid the abortion situation.

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The Bible does not condemn abortion on any level. I was surprise but happy to learn this because it aleviated the guilt I had from feeling that abortion was an option, in my heart, with the moral problem that it was condemned by God. It could very well be, but the Bible does not reveal such a stance.

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I'm pro-choice, and always have been. Well, so long as I've been familiar with what an abortion entails. I don't feel that one person has a right to dictate what another does with her own body, regardless of their personal feelings.

 

That, and most people who are "pro-life" (what a fucking misleading term...) are most often the same people who view women as two-legged brood mares. Get pregnant, pop out a baby, rinse, repeat until menopause. And don't even consider anything else, or you're in defiance of GAWD!

 

I've even had one of these types ask me how I would feel about abortion if my mom had aborted me. The sheer stupidity of that question boggled my poor mind. It still does...

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"You're not a human....til you're in my phonebook." - Bill Hicks

 

Just to lighten the mood.

 

I was always pro-choice, even as a Christian. I have never believed in forcing my beliefs down others' throats. I thought abortion was wrong, sure, because my church said it was - but I didn't think I had the right to tell people with other beliefs that they were wrong.

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That said I don't believe that abortion is rated the same as murder of a child or adult-the reason is because having one only hurts one innocent person-the baby-whereas killing an adult hurts all the adults friends and family as well.

 

 

I think an abortion hurts more than just the fetus. In many instances, it hurts the aborted child's parents as well.

I would say in most, if not all, it hurts the parents on some level. Unless they have absolutely no feelings at all, as in the case of a psychopath/sociopath.

 

Some of you aren't going to think that this is funny... but here I go anyway:

 

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33680...mp;special=1999

I love the irony in the Onion!

 

I have to say that I do believe that abortion is considered murdering a human. A human who has done nothing to deserve it.

That said I don't believe that abortion is rated the same as murder of a child or adult-the reason is because having one only hurts one innocent person-the baby-whereas killing an adult hurts all the adults friends and family as well.

I also realize that sometimes abortion can stop a child from having a bad life.

I would feel bad about having one.

I also believe that it is the womans right to make the choice-but for me I think I would not feel good about murdering someone.

The attempt at sending guilt feelings by calling it "murder" is not well hidden.

 

I used to feel that way also..and would couch my comments in "I believe the woman has the right to choose murder, if that's what she wants."

 

Tell me..if the choice to continue the pregnancy would jeopardize another child in the family..and most likely result in the new baby being also placed in jeopardy, would you still feel it was in the best interests to continue?

 

If it meant one more child born in poverty, or perhaps drug addicted or even physically otherwise effected by drugs, would that still be an ok way to bring a child?

 

Now, I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control and I've known women who've had more than 5..uhm Hello?? but, the one mistake, accident, whatever you call it..pay for it forever, and not only you, but the child too? And perhaps other children in the family?

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I would say in most, if not all, it hurts the parents on some level. Unless they have absolutely no feelings at all, as in the case of a psychopath/sociopath.

 

This is a very bad generalization, one that is often used by the anti-choicers to justify taking away people's rights. I don't think anybody WANTS to have an abortion, but as can be seen just on this board alone, not everybody believes a fetus = a baby or has the same emotions towards it. It's not fair to call these people psychopaths or sociopaths because of that. Some women feel nothing but incredible relief to be free of it. Pregnancy itself CAN be extremely traumatic psychologically and physically.

 

Most abortions are done before 12 weeks:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

 

Rates of abortion also vary depending upon the stage of pregnancy and the method practiced. In 2002, from data collected in those areas of the United States which sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 86.7% of abortions were conducted at or prior to 12 weeks, 9.9% from 13 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks. 91.3% percent of these were classified as having been done by "curettage" (suction-aspiration, D&C, D&E), 5.2% by "medical" means (mifepristone), 0.8% by "intrauterine instillation" (saline or prostaglandin), and 1.5 % by "other" (hysterotomy and hysterectomy). [3]

 

The Guttmacher Institute estimated that there were 2,200 intact dilation and extraction procedures in the U.S. during 2000 which would account for only 0.17% of the total number of abortions performed that year. (This is the so-called "Partial Birth Abortion" that ignorant anti-choicers like to throw around.)

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