Abortion...

[Guest earl1940]

Have your thoughts/beliefs/whatever changed on this since leaving christianity behind?

 

This thread has gone on for some time and morphed a little, and I'd like to bring some different perspective into it.

 

A few thoughts-

 

 

 

 

Having lived in the U.S. in a conservative area, and being of very conservative religious belief for 48 years; and then moving to where I now live, with the same religions present, and being still of the same religious belief until fairly recently, I would like to make a few comments.

 

 

 

 

I am amazed that this non-ending argument is still going on the U.S. It was debated thoroughly here for 30 years also, and a good solution arrived at. But some 22 years later, it's still going on in the U.S. And I'm going to ask why this endless arguing and divisiveness is still going on after some 50 years with no results whatsoever. A few thoughts on this off the top of my head:

 

 

 

• The politics of 'divide and conquer' are nowhere in the world so effectively used as in the U.S. This keeps the people in an uproar, polarizes them, gives the two party system there the chance to appear to be 'right' or 'left', when in fact, there is little actual difference between them on so many issues. This divide and conquer method keeps the people distracted and prevents them from thinking and acting together as a People, and lets the culprits on high get away with many things that are detrimental to the country and the People. Witness all that has happened in the last 5 or so years.
  
• Roughly 100 years ago and earlier, children up to various ages, often 10, were not even counted in a census in the West. Think about that one.
  
• As science and medicine progressed, the chances of survival for fetuses, new-borns and young children improved greatly. Anyone born was also included in censuses by then, and has not changed in any country to this day.
  
• The ability to survive an early birth improved along with this, opening the way for issues of viability. But in the 1950s and 1960s, abortion was not the issue it is today; it was most often not talked about openly.
  
• Along came the '60s, and the 'revolution' (I wish they had told us where we lived; the only difference I saw was Elvis and the Beatles, little more). But there was social progress then and the middle class flourished.
  
• The "Woodstock" people strangely disappeared back into a society that seemed to shrink back from the 1960s as we got into the 1970s. And inflation and gasoline shortages hit us. By the time of Reagan, the abortion issue became inflamed, and the Christian right wing gained more presence and power. And that hasn't stopped yet today; in fact, it has gotten more inflamed. And the middle class has been having tougher sledding, and has been shrinking. Politics and religion have been holding hands more tightly by the year since roughly the time of Nixon. And the issues such as abortion have become inflamed; enough to cause violence and even death to some. I wonder how many mothers and children were victims of this in one way or another? And I wonder if the social revolution of the 60's wasn't intentionally squelched by increasing political/religious interference. Those with political acumen will see what I'm driving at here.
  
• An interesting thing to note is also the closely related issue of sexuality. I won't go into this very far, for it is broad, but a couple things are worthy of note:
  • The U.S. Culture, mainly due to the right wing and religious right, has been opposed to sex education to notable degree.
    
  • The rate of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies in the U.S. Is far higher than any European country, and higher than most, if not all, developed countries. Think about this: The country that claims the highest religious 'morals' and the highest percentage of 'religious' people has the greatest unwanted pregancy problems, and not by a little. And also among, if not at the top of the list, of STDs and the like. You'd think with all these superior 'morals' that the opposite would be the case.
    
  • It also has a much greater rate of abortions than most, if not all, developed countries.
    

So why are we still arguing about abortion some 50 years without results other than even more polarization?

 

 

Look at Holland, often pointed to with sneering disdain by the religious right as "Sodom and Gemorrah". In spite of allowing abortions (within common sense guidelines), it has a far, far lower abortion rate than "Christian" America. And a far, far lower rate of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies and STDs. Now I ask you: Which has the better results? And isn't this what we all want?

 

 

 

 

Why aren't we looking at, and doing something about, the extremely high rates of unwanted and unplanned pregnancies? And STDs?

 

 

 

 

Want to drop the abortion rate in the U.S. Dramatically? Then get to work on these other issues.

 

 

 

 

These are just a few thoughts off the top. But I would invite you to think about the connections between politics, our form of economics, and religion, for I feel these are at the bottom of many of these kinds of problems and many others, such as war. And they have been for at least 2000 years.

[Variable]

as a whole this world is totally unable to care for the people who are already here. worldwide how many millions of people are living on the streets or in total poverty right now? where is the huge anti homelessness campaign? do we stop caring about people once they've reached a certain age? what age is that specifically? is the life of an unborn baby more valuable than the life of an adult? if so how?

 

if we can't take care of the people who are already here all the cries about how bad abortion is sound a bit hollow to me. it's easy to vilify something when it has no personal effect on you.

 

Well, to answer that I would have to explain my views on MANDATORY birthcontrol. Which would eraticate the need for abortion altogether. But that's probably for another thread. I'm one of the few people that think parenthood should be considered a priviledge not a right and people should have to prove they are willing, competent, and able before having a child.

 

As a woman, abortion has a very personal effect on me. While everyone talks about a perfect world where children are cared for and wanted. Consider this: The number of "unplanned", and "unwanted" children skyrocketed AFTER Roe vs. Wade. Not BEFORE. It has done nothing to solve our social problems.

 

I am amazed that this non-ending argument is still going on the U.S. It was debated thoroughly here for 30 years also, and a good solution arrived at. But some 22 years later, it's still going on in the U.S. And I'm going to ask why this endless arguing and divisiveness is still going on after some 50 years with no results whatsoever. A few thoughts on this off the top of my head:

 

I would say that is because the Supreme Court decided for us. They upsurped the democratic process and found "a right to abortion" somehow? in the constitution. Even if abortion is legal, shouldn't it have been the people that decided?

[Flyby Stardancer]

 

*I'm pulling this bit from a presentation a classmate of mine did on adoption in the context of race for one of our required freshman (college) year classes. I don't have her figures or where she got her info from.

 

I'm curious to know what her perspective on race and abortion was... do you remember?

 

Her view on race and adoption was that interracial adoptions should be allowed. However, at the time she had to argue that children should only be adopted by parents of the same race as them (ie. Mexican-American child->M-A parents, AA child -> AA parents, Chinese child -> Chinese parents, etc. etc.).

[LadyFeline]

I would say that is because the Supreme Court decided for us. They upsurped the democratic process and found "a right to abortion" somehow? in the constitution. Even if abortion is legal, shouldn't it have been the people that decided?

Obviously, aside from being sexist as well as totally ignorant about abortion and the nature of statistics, you're abysmally ignorant in regards to what type of government the US has AND the function of the Supreme Court.

 

I'd like to says I'm surprised, but I'm really not.

 

It's enough to say that if the people had their way, like you're utterly convinced they should, blacks would still be drinking from separate fountains, women wouldn't be able to vote or work any jobs that weren't teaching, nursing, or secretarial (and even then, they'd be fired as soon as they got pregnant), and the United States would be a Christian theocracy.

 

"The people" don't have all the say in our republic government. And I, for one, am glad.

[Stormwarden]

Variable, on your remarks on SCotUS:

 

You say that abortion should have been decided upon by the people?

 

Gee, let me see what else:

 

Jim Crow: Majority approved,

 

Slavery: Majority approved.

 

Prohibition: Majority approved at first.

 

Women being unable to vote: Approved by the majority of males.

 

Right. The Supreme Court exists to prevent the tyranny of the majority.

 

As for the issues you take on abortion: gee, let me think.

 

1) You may claim that adoption is the answer. I have news for you, that is not the case. We are already inundated with 20 million+ kids without access to healthcare.

 

2) People abort kids for several reasons. They may not want the kid, may not be able to afford to have the kid, or the mother's life is in danger. Oh, and rape too. Can't forget that.

 

Adoption in the US, given the FUBAR'd system it is under, is damned near impossible.

 

Here is a scenario for you: A kid goes into an abortion clinic, and needs an abortion. State may require that parents be notified. But what do you do when the parent of her unborn child is also her father? Well? I have news for you: this HAPPENS.

 

I don't like abortion myself, but I see how it might be necessary in many instances. In fact, I am glad SCotUS had the courage to make that decision.

 

Now to conclude, I remember a song by Everlast. It went like this:

 

"But God Forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes/'cause then you really might know what it is like to have to choose."

[Dianka]

Some of you aren't going to think that this is funny... but here I go anyway:

 

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33680...mp;special=1999

 

You were right. I didn't think it was funny. However, I found it interesting, and it gave me food for thought.

 

Thank you for the link.

 

I THOUGHT IT WAS HILARIOUS!!!

 

Then again, I pop RU-486's like they're breath mints...

 

 

Well, to answer that I would have to explain my views on MANDATORY birth-control. Which would eraticate the need for abortion altogether. But that's probably for another thread. I'm one of the few people that think parenthood should be considered a priviledge not a right and people should have to prove they are willing, competent, and able before having a child.

 

Can I make a helpful suggestion? Pull your head out of your bowls and THINK!!!

 

If you knew anything about birth control, you'd know that fertilization still happens, but the fertilized egg can't implant itself into the uterine wall, and (depending on your own subjective opinion on when life begins) kills the child. So, pretty much what you are advocating is many, many more drug-induced abortions. How is that better than going in for an abortion? It's just a different way to kill an embryo.

 

I can respect a person's opinion on abortion if they simply speak in terms of what they would do in a tough situation. But fuck anyone who feels a moral responsibility to cram their illogical conclusions down anyone else's throat, especially when there are so few people out there who would help financially support a baby that will otherwise bounce from one institution to another for who knows how many years. I can't even take such bullshit seriously.

 

As for mandatory birth control, gee you've really thought this through, haven't you? Some women do not know that when they take antibiotics, birth control is ineffective. Obviously there would be quite a few people out there who get pregnant accidentally. What is your wise answer for such a situation? I don't know about you, but I don't fuckin feel like taking a pill every day, or getting a monthly injection that will make me an emotional mess, or have an IUD or any of the other possibilities - especially when moral superiors such as yourself make it mandatory.

 

Do you also advocate free reproductive health care? You know, if someone can't afford your retarded demands, they just can't afford it. I know - WE CAN LYNCH THEM!!!

[pandora]

You go girl!

 

And I pop'em like breath mints too... at least I would if I could find a frickin' doctor and pharmacy to give'em to me!

 

I think I'll try a coathanger now.

[Dianka]

You go girl!

 

And I pop'em like breath mints too... at least I would if I could find a frickin' doctor and pharmacy to give'em to me!

 

I think I'll try a coathanger now.

 

 

A coat hanger is all fine and well, but a greased up sickle and a bottle of Jack Daniels will - surprisingly - be less painful.

 

Just be careful!

 

 

 

It's tasteless jokes like these that make me happy there's no such thing as Hell.

[woodsmoke]

And it's brassy women like you who tell tasteless jokes like those who make this cynical old bastard in a young man's body smile in knowing he's not alone.

[Variable]

If you knew anything about birth control, you'd know that fertilization still happens, but the fertilized egg can't implant itself into the uterine wall, and (depending on your own subjective opinion on when life begins) kills the child. So, pretty much what you are advocating is many, many more drug-induced abortions. How is that better than going in for an abortion? It's just a different way to kill an embryo.

 

That depends on the form of birth control. Some do this, some don't.

 

As for mandatory birth control, gee you've really thought this through, haven't you? Some women do not know that when they take antibiotics, birth control is ineffective. Obviously there would be quite a few people out there who get pregnant accidentally. What is your wise answer for such a situation? I don't know about you, but I don't fuckin feel like taking a pill every day, or getting a monthly injection that will make me an emotional mess, or have an IUD or any of the other possibilities - especially when moral superiors such as yourself make it mandatory.

 

Birth control will certainly be uneffective in some cases. But it would it would do wonders on a large scale with issues such a poverty, early pregnancy, and child abuse. And people just having children that shouldn't. An adopted couple has to jump through hoop after hoop (backround checks the whole works) to be able to adopt a child. But any kind of biological mother can have as many unwanted children as she wants and only have them taken away under the most abusive circumstances. Where they are then "adopted" by the state and wander from foster home to foster home just to be thrown out into mainstream society when they turn 18.

 

I don't know about you, but I don't fuckin feel like taking a pill every day, or getting a monthly injection that will make me an emotional mess, or have an IUD or any of the other possibilities - especially when moral superiors such as yourself make it mandatory

.

 

Neither would I. But I find it amazing that people who tolerate a political system that regulates everything from where you can spit to how many non-running cars you can have in front of your house would oppose something that would eliminate so many problems. We have mandatory education, mandatory vaccines, mandatory amount of money you must carry on you at all times, mandatory this that and the other thing. American life is insanely regulated and the one thing that could really revolutionize the system is ,"just going to far...."

 

Do you also advocate free reproductive health care? You know, if someone can't afford your retarded demands, they just can't afford it. I know - WE CAN LYNCH THEM!!!

 

I advocate free health care period. I expect most people to disagree with me. The only people I know of that openly advocate this are a few far lefties in Europe. As I said earlier, I don't want to hi-jack this thread. This is an important issue and all sides deserve to have their say. Mabey I'll start a thread on it some other time. If you want to debate me PM me.

 

1) You may claim that adoption is the answer. I have news for you, that is not the case. We are already inundated with 20 million+ kids without access to healthcare.

 

2) People abort kids for several reasons. They may not want the kid, may not be able to afford to have the kid, or the mother's life is in danger. Oh, and rape too. Can't forget that.

 

Adoption in the US, given the FUBAR'd system it is under, is damned near impossible.

 

You must have been reading someone else's post. I never said that.

 

 

 

"But God Forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes/'cause then you really might know what it is like to have to choose."

 

Well, I've had my own crisis pregnancy. Where abortion was a VERY attractive option. I have "walked a mile in her shoes". Have you?

 

Obviously, aside from being sexist as well as totally ignorant about abortion and the nature of statistics, you're abysmally ignorant in regards to what type of government the US has AND the function of the Supreme Court.

 

LadyFeline, did you actually take me off your mute button?

 

The function of the Supreme Court is one thing and one thing one. Interpret the constitution. Period.

 

It's enough to say that if the people had their way, like you're utterly convinced they should, blacks would still be drinking from separate fountains, women wouldn't be able to vote or work any jobs that weren't teaching, nursing, or secretarial (and even then, they'd be fired as soon as they got pregnant), and the United States would be a Christian theocracy.

 

a)Many of the changes we have today came by implementing the glarying obvious, "all men are created equal..."

 

b)By amending the constitution when the glaryingly obvious wasn't there, "a women's right to vote, antidiscrimination laws. ect."

 

c)Raising hell until A or B got done.

 

We can start a war, start a revolution, picket, ect, ect. But giving a body power that they are not supposed to have is both ridiculous and dangerous. Right now you celebrate because they are creating "laws" out of thin air that you happen to agree with. But once they start creating laws that you disagree with (which is bound to happen with the SC moving right. The theocracy that we fear could very well come through the supreme court violating the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS separation of church and state) you will cry foul and regret that you supported an oligarchy over a democracy.

 

I believe the constitution already contains all the elements necessary for equality and everything else should be handled by the legislature. And should the day come when this is no longer the case I advocated working "through" the system ( as our forerunners Martin Luther King and the early suffarage women did) and not against it.

 

The Supreme Court "creating" an abortion right put a halt to all discussion and debate to one of the most basic questions, "What is a human being?" Which carries consequences WAY outside of the abortion debate.

 

Mabey this is one of the reasons pro-choicers advocate the Supreme Court as a course of action for almost everything. Actually CHANGING PEOPLE'S MINDS is a lot of work. But in the long term the changes via this route are more enduring and substantial.

[evergreen]

Response to OP:

As a Christian, I was "pro-life"/anti-abortion. I am ashamed to admit that I even thought abortion was unacceptable in the case of rape. Hey, at least I was consistent, though, right?

 

Anyway, shortly after my deconversion, I decided that being pro-choice made more sense. It's not up to me or anyone else to decide what women should do with their own bodies.

 

I'll be 22 in August. I'm not finished my education, and I don't have a good job. I'm single and not sexually active at the moment (plus I'm on the Pill), but if something happened and I got knocked up, you bet your ass I'd get rid of it.

I'll choose if I want to be a parent.

I don't owe anything to a pile of cells in my uterus.

 

It seems that when people first become sexually active, they end up having a pregnany scare.

That happened to me and my ex.

A few months after my ex and I started sleeping together, I shagged up my pills and thought I could be pregnant because I didn't get my period when I should have. So we talked about it, I took 2 home pregnancy tests, and even got one at the doctor's, and we decided that if I was pregnant, I would have an abortion.

We were both sad about it, and we cried a lot together, but it would have been the only sensible thing for us to do at the time. I was 19, he was 20. And now we're no longer together, so it really would have been the best thing.

 

I made the choice already, thankfully I wasn't actually pregnant. Just not used to the pills yet. It's funny, now.

 

Anyway, here's a feminist slogan for you all:

"My body, my choice."

To anyone who would try to choose for me, you can go fuck yourself.

[Ouroboros]

"Yeah asshole, how many kids y'all adopted?"

Damn good answer K.

 

I like the response question too, to anti-abortion demonstrators:

"So you want to make abortion illegal? What kind of punishment should the woman get? How many years in prison?"

[The Sage Nabooru]

It still amazes me that we live in a country that requires one prove one's skill by earning a license in order to drive, shoot guns, fish, practice medicine, and conduct weddings, and yet we take the single most important thing a single human being can do within the scope of their individual lives - raise a child - and give it to any piece of beer-chugging, high trash able to locate her vagina.

 

Of course birth control should be mandatory. No one should be allowed to have and raise a child just because they feel like it or are too stupid to safeguard against it. When we adopted our dogs the woman at the shelter practically cross-examined us to make sure we would give them a good home. Parenting a child is no different. Hell, they can put birth control in the water supply for all I care.

 

If one adopts a child, one is forced through all kinds of red tape before one can even see the child. How is a biological child any different (besides being immoral, considering the MILLIONS of people starving to death worldwide and you're just producing another mouth to feed and consume the world's already strained supplies)?

[woodsmoke]

It seems that when people first become sexually active, they end up having a pregnany scare.

 

Happened to me as well. Unfortunately, my girlfriend and I had differing opinions. Though I wasn't about to give an ultimatum or any similar bullshit (it takes two to tango--this was just as much my mess as hers), I thought if she were really pregnant she should have an abortion because I knew neither of us were anywhere near ready for that kind of responsibility. Parenthood was something for folks in their mid-upper 20s and older. I was 18 and she was 17, we would have been "kids raising kids."

 

She had a much more emotional view of matters, and a history of abuse and the fact that her own mother had only been 16 when she was born didn't help matters.

 

Of course, that occasion also taught me one of the cruelist ironies of nature, namely that stress can further delay an already freaked out woman's period. I think it was 10-14 days late that she finally started menstruating and we were able to breathe easy.

 

Also like you, it was good for us as the relationship ended soon after. I may be kind of bad and it's certainly terribly cliche, but ours was a relationship based on orgasms. --What?! We were two very horny teenagers raised in the ultra-conservative and extremely sexually oppressive culture of Utah!

[wideawake42]

It seems to me, being a woman and all, that if you're too retarded to be careful not to get knocked up, then you probably aren't smart enough to raise a healthy child.

 

In that case I am pro-knife!

[Dianka]

I've seen quite a few abortin topic on this board, but I believe this has turned into the most idiotic exchange that has ever taken place on the matter. Thank the holy spook neither one of you have power on the matter of sterilization. What the fuck is the point of sterilization, or permission notes from the government to breed?

[Sparrow]

Hmmm ... interesting questions.

 

I was neither po-life, nor was I pro-choice, per-sé.

 

Of the women who have abortions I would say there are really very few who don't have some misgivings about the seriousness of what they did. Hardly any woman, if not none, take the decision of abortion so lightly.

 

On the other hand, if you have 13 children, your husband just pissed his pay-packet from the day before up against wall in used alchohol, the current baby is screaming because she's hungry, the three year old twins and the four year old are trying to kill each other, the others are upset because Dad vomitted on the TV set and now it doesn't work and your 13 year old daughter is arguing with you because you said no to her 17 year old boyfriend moving in, then I think that if someone offered you a free abortion, then you'd be a fool not to take it.

 

Absolute "anything" is clearly a stupid idea, but so is the choice of the career woman who decides that a baby would tie her down and aborts it, and at the same time so is the the trailer park tart who brings yet another screaming little shit into the world, who more than likely won't be another Beethoven or Mozart, but yet another piece of societal effluent.

 

I'm still in two minds about abortion. Clearly there are cases when it would be needed and clearly there are cases when it shouldn't occur.

 

At the end of the day though, it should always remain the choice of the individuals affected, so I suppose I tend more towards pro-choice.

 

Thanks

 

Sparrow

[evergreen]

Absolute "anything" is clearly a stupid idea, but so is the choice of the career woman who decides that a baby would tie her down and aborts it, and at the same time so is the the trailer park tart...

 

Fuck that.

Why is it stupid for someone who doesn't want to be a parent to terminate her pregnancy?

 

If I'm single (as in, not married or with someone I want to be with for life) and I get knocked up, there's no fucking way I'm carrying a fetus to term. It just isn't happening. And it would likely be because I didn't want a rugrat to fuck my life up.

Right now (I know, at the ripe old age of nearly 22, haha) I think a child would tie me down no matter my age.

[evergreen]

It seems that when people first become sexually active, they end up having a pregnany scare.

 

Happened to me as well. Unfortunately, my girlfriend and I had differing opinions. Though I wasn't about to give an ultimatum or any similar bullshit (it takes two to tango--this was just as much my mess as hers), I thought if she were really pregnant she should have an abortion because I knew neither of us were anywhere near ready for that kind of responsibility. Parenthood was something for folks in their mid-upper 20s and older. I was 18 and she was 17, we would have been "kids raising kids."

 

She had a much more emotional view of matters, and a history of abuse and the fact that her own mother had only been 16 when she was born didn't help matters.

 

Of course, that occasion also taught me one of the cruelist ironies of nature, namely that stress can further delay an already freaked out woman's period. I think it was 10-14 days late that she finally started menstruating and we were able to breathe easy.

 

Also like you, it was good for us as the relationship ended soon after. I may be kind of bad and it's certainly terribly cliche, but ours was a relationship based on orgasms. --What?! We were two very horny teenagers raised in the ultra-conservative and extremely sexually oppressive culture of Utah!

 

Pregnancy scares are the worst.

Lucky yer missus at the time wasn't actually pregnant!

 

I really don't think there's any good reason for teens to be having babies.

Christ, if I ever have kids, they're going to be indoctrinated in the ways of the Holy Contraceptives.

[SilentLoner]

Growing up in the catholic camp, I was fed the usual anti-abortion propaganda. But for some reason, I always felt uneasy about saying that abortion was wrong (even before I witnessed the event described below). I never said anything, but felt that it was not what the church made it out to be.

 

Luckily for me I escaped the lunacy at an early enough age and am now 100% pro-choice.

 

What is one of the main reasons for my defiance on the subject? I saw a woman DIE from an illiegal abortion.

I was living in El Salvador at the time, and in case you don't know, the country is overwhelmingly catholic and abortion is illiegal. I was 12 years old, in the hospital, visiting my grandma with the parental units. I got bored, so I decided to go and walk around the halls. I passed this one room which had a half-open door, and inside on the hospital bed was a young woman.

She couldn't have been past her early twenties. I heard two nurses in her room talking, from what they said she was married with two young children, found herself pregnant again and in desperation had sought out an illiegal abortion, during which she had random steel rods stuck up her and her uterus was torn.

Her face was this sick yellow color, she had a high fever from a uterine infection.

At that moment I heard one of my parents calling me, so I went back. Around ten minutes later, when we were leaving the hospital and walked past the woman's room again, she was dead.

 

Nuff said. As for adoption:

 

It angers me how hundreds of thousands of children are available for adoption in the US (and even more worldwide), but since they are guilty of not being newborn, they will languish in foster or state care while selfish pro-lifers (or as I call them: forced-birthers) whine that abortion is depriving would-be parents. It is NO woman's job to provide another with a child. If people are so selfish that nothing but a perfect little baby will do, they don't deserve to be a parent. And "pro lifers" have the nerve to call US selfish.

 

While I definitely never want to have kids of my own, I would like to adopt or be a foster parent one day. Not sure, but its likely.

 

In my opinion, this battle is long lost. There will always be abortion, whether it is illiegal or not.

[Ouroboros]

SilentLoner, good points.

 

I was thinking about the trend right now, that more and more states outlaw abortion. What will happen when all states have laws against it? Well, women will go to Mexico or to latin america to get it done. Will we have more caskets of dead women from it? Ya bet'ya! Then pro-life can put their posters in a dark place.

[redneck22]

Edited by Loren.

 

Christians have no business posting in a forum devoted to ex-Christians giving solutions to problems caused by having been Christian. This is not your personal witnessing pool, or an area where Christian political polemics are welcome.

 

Christians may post anywhere except in Ex-Christian Life and Testimonies.

[Ouroboros]

You're absolutely right Redneck22. We should outlaw it, and we punishment should be lifetime prison for the woman and execution for the doctor. And we'll all be very happy the day when all the daughters of America go south the border to get illegal abortions and come home dead or with diseases. Heck, you know we should consider the sperm and the eggs as living beings too. So masturbation should be outlawed, also punished with jail time, and menstruating women should be unclean for 7 days, just like the Bible says. Yeah, it all sounds so good, lets also make the law so if a woman is raped she has to marry the rapist, unless she was married already. It would be such a peaceful world if everyone were Christians, or even better Muslims. Don't you think? (end of sarcasm)

 

Redneck, do you believe what the Bible says, or are you just a ignorant Bible basher that never really take the scriptures to heart?

 

Do you believe these verses?

Le 17:11

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

 

Le 17:14

because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, "You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off."

 

And do you believe Genesis that God breathed life into Adam?

 

So if "life" is in the blood and/or the breath, the fetus doesn't have blood until 3 weeks, and doesn't breathe until it's out of the womb. When is the fetus alive by your definition? Does your definition fit with the Bible?

[The Sage Nabooru]

If people are so selfish that nothing but a perfect little baby will do, they don't deserve to be a parent. And "pro lifers" have the nerve to call US selfish.

 

Not just a perfect little baby, but only one that came from their own physical loins. It's amazing how many people will go from doctor to clinic to research study trying to conceive and then get clammy when the idea of adoption of another child comes along. "But it won't really be MINE! I want to be a REAL mommy!" I've actually heard one excuse from a man: "I don't want people to think that I can't fulfill my duties."

 

How disgustingly selfish is it to reject another child because you want to have your "own".

[Dianka]

This may be somewhat taboo, but I have a few friends who have had abortions. 3 close, and 1 not so close friend. Only one of them has any regrets at all, and that's because she feels like she is going to Hell. Incidentally, the one with regrets has had 3 abortions (that was her boyfriend's preferred method of birth control). The other three girls, nothing. They were not being as careful as they should have been, and corrected a mistake that would have ruined their lives. No regret, but somewhat weirded out because they feel there should be at least some level of moral anguish. We were all raised to believe that women who have abortions spend a month in bed with the curtains drawn, blubbering and vomiting. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

It's a tired cliche, not everyone is a breeder or should be a mother. Should we all be affected by abortion the same way? My point is that women don't have to agonize over the decision for months afterwards, do they? It seems there have been a few comments on here along the lines of "as long as they realize how serious the decision is..." Why? Do we all have to clutch our heart in a solemn vow to avenge this aborted embryo's death by filling our homes with children just as soon as we can afford it? What's the problem with getting rid of the problem, and moving on with life?