Abortion...

[Ouroboros]

I'm split in this question. I'm pro-life and pro-choice; to me it depends on the situation. It shouldn't be too easy, but it shouldn't be too hard either. It has to be balanced.

[nicoleeann]

Okay, so I've thought about it all day at school-

I think the main problem I have had with it is that when you have one you are becoming "god" over someone else's life. I know their are alot of babies that are born into bad circumstances. But at the end of their live do they wish that they were never born? Some of them do-many do not. A pregnant person has no way of knowing. So they just play "god" in the childs life. I also thought-"well don't parents allways know what is best for their child?" The answer to that is no as well.

Do you think that these two scenerios below are equal? Read below-

1. having an abortion because you know you would be a single mother and havent finished highschool.

2. painlessly killing your 2-year-old because they are blind and it is causing him grief and you are poor.

I've been thinking about the scenerios and I just can't decide in my own mind.

I think the problem for me is that I don't feel like I can choose for my baby-"your life won't be that great, so I am going to kill you."

 

I guess my belief on this stems from a belief that just because my life has alot of pain in it, does not mean it is not a valuable experience.

 

Tell me..if the choice to continue the pregnancy would jeopardize another child in the family..and most likely result in the new baby being also placed in jeopardy, would you still feel it was in the best interests to continue?

I don't know how this would happen-but if the other child was in extreme as well jeopardy I might end the life-but I know I would feel bad about it.

 

As far as parents feeling psychological pain from the abortion-I think this will happen if you do not feel 100% sure you want to abort it. I don't think it is a good idea to abort a baby if in your heart you do not really want to-but you are just doing it for social or other reasons.

 

I know alot of you disagree about how I feel about it. I am pro-choice. I've never badgered anyone whos had one or is going to have one. and i don't burn the clinics. and i don't force it down others throats. This is just how I would feel if I was considering having one.

[Lizard]

I would say in most, if not all, it hurts the parents on some level. Unless they have absolutely no feelings at all, as in the case of a psychopath/sociopath.

 

This is a very bad generalization, one that is often used by the anti-choicers to justify taking away people's rights. I don't think anybody WANTS to have an abortion, but as can be seen just on this board alone, not everybody believes a fetus = a baby or has the same emotions towards it. It's not fair to call these people psychopaths or sociopaths because of that. Some women feel nothing but incredible relief to be free of it. Pregnancy itself CAN be extremely traumatic psychologically and physically.

 

 

Yes, it can be extremely traumatic..and so can raising a child and all that goes with it.

 

I didn't mean to generalize. Simply that most people will have mixed feelings..and at some point even hurt. Such as when they see a child that is the age theirs would have been.

 

Its not an easy decision, either way.

 

I'm split in this question. I'm pro-life and pro-choice; to me it depends on the situation. It shouldn't be too easy, but it shouldn't be too hard either. It has to be balanced.

I would tend to agree. Its not a decision I could make easily, were I faced with it..and when I was faced with it, I could not go through with it. If it came up now..I just don't know. I can still have children, but would I want to at 46? No, I don't think so.

 

It shouldn't be as easy as walking into the store and getting the "cure"..and it really isn't. There is ALOT involved.

 

The ones I would perhaps feel uncomfortable with are the ones who use it as a form of birth control..

[pandora]

Okay, so I've thought about it all day at school-

I think the main problem I have had with it is that when you have one you are becoming "god" over someone else's life. I know their are alot of babies that are born into bad circumstances. But at the end of their live do they wish that they were never born? Some of them do-many do not. A pregnant person has no way of knowing. So they just play "god" in the childs life. I also thought-"well don't parents allways know what is best for their child?" The answer to that is no as well.

Do you think that these two scenerios below are equal? Read below-

1. having an abortion because you know you would be a single mother and havent finished highschool.

2. painlessly killing your 2-year-old because they are blind and it is causing him grief and you are poor.

I've been thinking about the scenerios and I just can't decide in my own mind.

I think the problem for me is that I don't feel like I can choose for my baby-"your life won't be that great, so I am going to kill you."

 

I guess my belief on this stems from a belief that just because my life has alot of pain in it, does not mean it is not a valuable experience.

 

Tell me..if the choice to continue the pregnancy would jeopardize another child in the family..and most likely result in the new baby being also placed in jeopardy, would you still feel it was in the best interests to continue?

I don't know how this would happen-but if the other child was in extreme as well jeopardy I might end the life-but I know I would feel bad about it.

 

As far as parents feeling psychological pain from the abortion-I think this will happen if you do not feel 100% sure you want to abort it. I don't think it is a good idea to abort a baby if in your heart you do not really want to-but you are just doing it for social or other reasons.

 

I know alot of you disagree about how I feel about it. I am pro-choice. I've never badgered anyone whos had one or is going to have one. and i don't burn the clinics. and i don't force it down others throats. This is just how I would feel if I was considering having one.

 

I totally understand your point of view... but I think you should consider the scientific approach. I am assuming for any of this to make sense to you, you must believe in a soul and/or God, correct? Otherwise, no harm, no foul if the "baby" can't even experience it's own existence or feel pain or ANYTHING before 10 weeks. Does this make sense at all to you? Or is there some reason that this kind of argument doesn't make you think a little? Potential for humanness is a lot different than actual humanness.

[RHEMtron]

im prochoice, but if my significant other was pregnant, emotionally and sentimentally speaking, i dont think i'd want her to get an abortion . But it's her choice

 

i rhemember a question was asked here one time: is prochoice really the opposite of prolife? doesnt prochoice mean youre for life too? The opposite of prolife is antilife...

[nicoleeann]

 

I totally understand your point of view... but I think you should consider the scientific approach. I am assuming for any of this to make sense to you, you must believe in a soul and/or God, correct? Otherwise, no harm, no foul if the "baby" can't even experience it's own existence or feel pain or ANYTHING before 10 weeks. Does this make sense at all to you? Or is there some reason that this kind of argument doesn't make you think a little? Potential for humanness is a lot different than actual humanness.

 

Your right I do believe in a soul which would explain how I think differently about it.

[paloriam]

I've always been pro-choice (I was Baptist so you can imagine the crap I got). It's not my body and none of my business. To each their own.

[scitsofreaky]

I'm split in this question. I'm pro-life and pro-choice; to me it depends on the situation. It shouldn't be too easy, but it shouldn't be too hard either. It has to be balanced.

I agree. I don't like the idea of abortion being used as birth control, by either the state or the individual (but especially the state *cough*China*cough*). Many people on both sides of the fence piss me off, so I think I will just hang out on the fence with people I like

[LadyFeline]

Your right I do believe in a soul which would explain how I think differently about it.

Wow, what a pretentious point of view. So someone who supports abortion must not believe that humans possess a "soul", right? We must believe that life is unimportant, because death means nothing, correct?

 

Come off it, and please stop pretending you're "on the fence" or whatnot. You obviously consider it to be "murder" on par with killing a toddler or adult (which is in complete opposition to the stance stated in your first post in this thread), or else you wouldn't be trying to compare it to killing a toddler, and you wouldn't continue to use the "guilt" angle by repeating "murder... murder... murder" in virtually all of your posts...

[Guest earl1940]

No. I have always felt it to be the choice of the woman (or couple) involved; no one else, unless invited.

 

My step daughter chose to keep her two babies from two different fathers. Now she, and they, are paying a high price. But it was her decision, heavily influenced by the Christian "community" where she lived, to keep them, and she is still a single mother. OK, but then there are consequences that don't stop, poverty among them in this merciless society. Nonetheless, we support her decision and her kids, our grandchildren. There's more to the story, including arrested development on her part.

 

"Mother Nature" lets millions or billions of zygotes, fetuses and babies die every year for many reasons. Yet, the minute we think of halting the process of development at early stages, we are roundly condemned by the very people who often or usually do NOT support any child after it is born, unless it is perhaps of their own persuasion. Go figure.

 

Leave this as a choice, made with full consciousness of the possibilities and consequences, of the mother and perhaps father. Stay out of others' lives here, too, unless asked. THIS is the true moral position as I see it. The other possibilities are too ugly to think about, for an unwanted child always knows that, with all the consequences. How responsible is that? And NO ONE will help you with that problem.

[snookums]

IMO...no ones' business what the woman chooses to do with her own body.....including the male.

[Golden Meadows]

One of the most powerful images of love, for me, is a mother with child, in and out of the womb. Xtianity may have been the intial prompt to think about abortion but my love for mother and child has continued after xtianity ended so its not following a party line that is influencing me. What stops me being self righteous was a long time ago when we were not married, had no intentions of getting married and a pregnancy scare. The possibility was definitely there of an abortion at the time. As it happened it was false alarm but I don't know what I would have done if it had been positive. I think maybe popular culture can influence a vulnerbale person into doing a thing that later on, with relflection, they can really regret. I think if it had actually gone through then I would have big head troubles today, as it happens its still bothers me that I even thought about it then.

I don't think those people who go shouting and screaming outside abortion clinics do any good but only pile on the confusion and anxiety with young girls in particular, but I know there other "pro-lifers" who do love the mother and child and are not fuelled on hatred. I don't favour abortion, especially they way it seems to generally work in the west, it seems to me that there is too much emphasis placed on very extreme cases that only represent a tiny percentage of the total number to justify the abortion in general.

[LadyFeline]

One of the most powerful images of love, for me, is a mother with child, in and out of the womb. Xtianity may have been the intial prompt to think about abortion but my love for mother and child has continued after xtianity ended so its not following a party line that is influencing me.

1. Christianity says nothing about abortion. It does, however, say that the punishment for "Causing her fruit to depart from her" is only a few pieces of silver. And the negative attitude towards abortion today is a relatively recent development.

 

Not long ago, it was perfectly acceptable to cause a miscarriage so long as the abortaficeant was administered before the baby started kicking because, before that point, it was not considered "alive". It's only been within the past century or so (if even that) that abortion has gotten such a negative reputation.

 

but I know there other "pro-lifers" who do love the mother and child and are not fuelled on hatred.

I do hope that, with this, you're not attempting to imply that pro-choice individuals hate mothers and children, because that would go right into my collection of "most ignorant quotes EVER" if you were.

 

I don't favour abortion, especially they way it seems to generally work in the west, it seems to me that there is too much emphasis placed on very extreme cases that only represent a tiny percentage of the total number to justify the abortion in general.

Uh... Where the fuck do you get your info, sweetheart? The "very extreme cases" are the cases being used in an attempt to justify banning abortion altogether...

[Golden Meadows]

1. Christianity says nothing about abortion. It does, however, say that the punishment for "Causing her fruit to depart from her" is only a few pieces of silver. And the negative attitude towards abortion today is a relatively recent development.

I assume you mean the bible rather than xtianity? One of the things that distinguished early xtianity from paganism (you see the irony in my avatar) was their teaching on abortion - it was always under the ban. One of the earliest xtian documents we have is the Didache (1st/2nd century) and abortion is explicitly banned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

 

This has continued to be the case down through the ages with catholicism and the orthodox church's. It was also, I believe, the case with the founders of mainstream protestantism, e.g Calvin and Luther.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/103/31.0.html

It's only been within the past century or so (if even that) that abortion has gotten such a negative reputation.

See my comments above, it goes back to the earliest days of xtianity.

 

but I know there other "pro-lifers" who do love the mother and child and are not fuelled on hatred.

I do hope that, with this, you're not attempting to imply that pro-choice individuals hate mothers and children, because that would go right into my collection of "most ignorant quotes EVER" if you were.

I think if anything it suggests the exact opposite of what you took from it, i.e hate seemed to be in the air with those who shouted and screamed at women entering abortion clinics.

 

I don't favour abortion, especially they way it seems to generally work in the west, it seems to me that there is too much emphasis placed on very extreme cases that only represent a tiny percentage of the total number to justify the abortion in general.

Uh... Where the fuck do you get your info, sweetheart? The "very extreme cases" are the cases being used in an attempt to justify banning abortion altogether...

I think extremists on both side of the issue use certain cases, i.e partial birth abortions, rapes, for example to argue the case for and against abortion in general; e.g the evidence used Roe v Wade decission in the early 70's, that introduced modern legalised abortion in the USA, was partly founded on the issue of rape. "Jane Roe" later admitted that she lied and as best I know she is now active in pro-life circles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey

 

 

Correction: From the wikipedia article it seems that the "rape" evidence was not allowed so it was not influencial in the final verdict -sorry if my comments suggested otherwise

[♦ nivek ♦]

Set Scene One:

 

"Fatman on his way into local pharamcy for his monthly ration of Old Man Good Dog Pills"

 

Stage Right:

 

Utility truck with many religious oriented "Get Right or Get Left" themed bumper stickers plastered over every concievable place to put them.

 

On center of rear window is a particularly mentally pungent anti_abortion.god.hates.abortion sticker

 

Stage Left:

 

Woman in surgical scrubs leaving said pharmacy, walking towards the vehicle, her jebub bling in form of cross and fishes clinking brightly in summer desert sun.

 

Scene Two:

 

"Nurse" notices on rear of my truck, infamous Urban Assault Vehicle, dusty, faded, dented, loud, scarred and rock worn, "RELIGON KILLS" (kudos to biggles for the sticker).

 

"Nurse" looks at me, and asks "How many of your babies did you help KILL??"

 

Scene Three:

 

Hidden behind backdrop of everything, the sluggish mind of daFatman looking for a graceful way not involving the use of the word FUCK to help get out of this fine kettle of fish brewing.

Easy Answer Jar not at hand, lacking finesse and ability to not c u s s some poor innocent goofball in p u b l i c...

Squeezes asscheeks, tried to prevent the explosion and torrents of bullshit from streaming past gums.. A l m o s t make it...

 

Scene Four:

 

daFatman states simply in a daze "How many adopted crack addled babies do you have?" "How any are you goig to adopt this year?"

 

Scene Five:

 

Just a few nanoseconds later, answers seeming to have tied her mind up for the next half an hour releases pressure on brain and anus, daFatman walks in to pharmacy leaving the 'Nurse' staring at her keys.

 

****

 

Later that day, you'd have found daFatman out on range working out his frustrations with lead.therapy and some hole punching on targets..

 

"Yeah asshole, how many kids y'all adopted?"

 

kL

[Lizard]

It is always amazing to me how the most outspoken against abortion will be the last ones to help out with the children who are already born.

 

I remember when my first son was born, nearly 26 years ago. I was involved in a church, and of course they convinced me to give birth.

 

One couple was "willing" to adopt him..but, I was having none of that..after all, if I carried him for 9 months and gave birth, I was going to raise him. Funny how, right after he was born, and I a single mother, they all seemed to be "busy" all the time..no time to help out after..

 

I would love to ask the protestors if they would be willing to help raise the "child" they are attempting to save..will they be there for the long haul? Send the kid to college? Cover medical expenses? All the needs?

 

Of course, the answer would be to give said child up for adoption..which brings to mind an odd image..

 

No pregnancy ever aborted..all those children brought into the world and put up for adoption..how many would actually get a home with a loving family?

 

Before you (general you) start yelling murder, I'd like to reiterate what Nivek said:

 

"Yeah asshole, how many kids y'all adopted?"

[Golden Meadows]

It is always amazing to me how the most outspoken against abortion will be the last ones to help out with the children who are already born.

 

I remember when my first son was born, nearly 26 years ago. I was involved in a church, and of course they convinced me to give birth.

 

One couple was "willing" to adopt him..but, I was having none of that..after all, if I carried him for 9 months and gave birth, I was going to raise him. Funny how, right after he was born, and I a single mother, they all seemed to be "busy" all the time..no time to help out after..

 

I would love to ask the protestors if they would be willing to help raise the "child" they are attempting to save..will they be there for the long haul? Send the kid to college? Cover medical expenses? All the needs?

 

Of course, the answer would be to give said child up for adoption..which brings to mind an odd image..

 

No pregnancy ever aborted..all those children brought into the world and put up for adoption..how many would actually get a home with a loving family?

 

Before you (general you) start yelling murder, I'd like to reiterate what Nivek said:

 

"Yeah asshole, how many kids y'all adopted?"

 

I think you indirectly hit the nail on the head. The extremists who scream murder outside an abortion clinic with the big colorful banners in a girls face don't draw a distinction between a child outside the womb and the child in the womb. If somebody went up to them and said "if you don't adopt my 2 year old child I am going to murder him" they treat it as the same as "if you don't adopt my child when its born then I will murder it". They would argue that if it's completely wrong to issue the first threat then so too is it completely wrong to issue the second. They scream highly emotive words like "murder" because they believe its a child in the womb. Extremists just make things worse.

[Lorena Rodriguez]

Some of you aren't going to think that this is funny... but here I go anyway:

 

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33680...mp;special=1999

 

You were right. I didn't think it was funny. However, I found it interesting, and it gave me food for thought.

 

Thank you for the link.

[Megara]

Definitely. I was a pro-lifer before. I'm pro-choice now.

[Variable]

As an A & P student, I cannot say I support abortion. Mainly because I've seen preserved embryos, and fetuses at all stages of developement. All floating, preserved in a solution inside big glass jars.

The fact is that a 9 week fetus looks EXACTLY like a newborn baby if you shrunk it small (about the length of your hand). Could I change my mind? Possibly. Do I think it really sucks for girls/women who find themself in a crisis pregnancy? Yes. I also understand that most crisis pregnancies exist because of men who refuse to support them, and most wouldn't go through with an abortion if the father would be responsible. Often the husband/boyfriend coerces the women into "taking care of it" so he continue to have his cake and eat it to. Interestingly the biggest demographic pro-choice group is single males in their 20's and early 30's.

 

Well, that's my 2 cents. I was anti-abortion prior to conversation, during conversion, and after conversion. I think the one person that is most responsible for an abortion is the man who knocks up a woman (especially a teenage girl, most teenage pregnancies are caused by adult men over 20) and leaves her with only 2 options: abortion, a life of poverty. Then goes whisteling on his merry way, being led by his pecker, with no thought of the live(s) he destroyed.

 

As for the argument that a fetus can't think/feel. A newborn baby is capable of feeling only one emotion: fear. And memories can't be encoded until 2 years old. Cognition and feeling evolve as the organism grows, and I don't think evidence of congnition provides a very good definition of whether something is human anyway. I think in ways now that I was incapable of as a teenager (teenagers' brains are still growing).

 

My definition of human is this: It has it's own unique DNA

 

Therefore it is not an appendage of the mother (like her tonsils, whose cells carry only her DNA, which she has every right to remove.

 

It is it's only unique self, evidenced by it's own genetic code

[LadyFeline]

Often the husband/boyfriend coerces the women into "taking care of it" so he continue to have his cake and eat it to. Interestingly the biggest demographic pro-choice group is single males in their 20's and early 30's

That alone makes me discount every last thing you have to say.

 

Got any proof for that, Einstein, or are you just pulling numbers out of your ass like so many other "pro-lifers"?

[Variable]

Quinnipiac University

CBS

 

Here are a couple of polls. The Quinnipiac article shows a larger gap between men and women, while the CBS article shows men are slightly more prochoice. Whether the gap is big or small, men generally come out ahead of the women. And the younger the male the more prochoice. Pew Research Center

This study is older, but still relevant. If you want more numbers I'm sure you kind find plenty on the web.

[LadyFeline]

Numbers don't prove that men support abortion so that they can "have their cake and eat it, too". Do some? No doubt, but saying that all or even most of them are like that would be like saying that all pro-choice women support abortion so that they can be irresponsible sluts and sleep around as much as they like. It's fucking ignorant.

[Variable]

There is not a poll that could ever prove a man's intentions for being pro-choice. Mainly, because no man would ever admit it! Imagine being polled and some guy admitting, "ya, I'm pro-choice because I don't want to take responsibility if I knock some girl up." I'm not ignorant. I'm too smart to believe the same group that listens to sexist hate-speech in the form of "music" everyday, where 40% have admitted they would rape a women if they knew for sure they can get away with it, is actually motivated by a genuine "concern" for a women's right to choose. Ya right!

 

"No doubt, but saying that all or even most of them are like that would be like saying that all pro-choice women support abortion so that they can be irresponsible sluts and sleep around as much as they like. It's fucking ignorant."

 

Most women are motivated to have sex for an entirely different set of reasons than men. Study neurology and endoctrinology. I don't believe that comparison is valid.

 

My statement about "men having their cake and eating it too" is based on my own observations. Most of the women/girls I know who had an abortion, did so because they knew the father was going to split if they didn't. And they would be left holding the baby alone.

[LadyFeline]

My statement about "men having their cake and eating it too" is based on my own observations. Most of the women/girls I know who had an abortion, did so because they knew the father was going to split if they didn't. And they would be left holding the baby alone.

And how many girls (I'm not including women, since a woman would be mature enough to kick a lazy, demanding jackass like that to the curb) like that have you known? Five? Ten? Fifteen? More?

 

I'm too smart to believe the same group that listens to sexist hate-speech in the form of "music" everyday, where 40% have admitted they would rape a women if they knew for sure they can get away with it, is actually motivated by a genuine "concern" for a women's right to choose.

...Or, nevermind. Don't bother answering the above question. This here tells me all I need to know about you, and it's enough to warrant you a spot reserved for all other shrieking extremists - the Ignore list.