Fundamentals

[RHEMtron]

this is what i consider to be trivial stuff. i am talking about the big stuff, we all agree on the 10 comandments and that Jesus is the son of God. these are the core elements that i think are important.

So you think the role women play in church is trivial? You dont think they can be a major influence on a congregation? Who are you to decide what's important in Christianity? God? You cannot omit rules and laws given in the bible. You cannot deem them unimportant. Rhemember:

 

2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

Matthew 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations"

 

notice he said all nations, not all men or only men.

Im confused. I was just asking why you say some instructions in the bible are unimportant. I didnt ask who does Jesus have authority over, or who gave him the authority. I also asked what gives you the authority to to make the decision of what is and isnt important. Well, i guess since you referenced Jesus saying he has all authority, your implication is that your Jesus?

 

Great. You quoted Jesus again!! But i can do one better. There is one that proceeds Jesus. Even Jesus admitted this. I can quote God. Jesus says that authority has been given to him. What did God say:

 

Isa 42:8

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory I will not give to another, neither my praise to graven images

 

While im quoting God, what did God say about needing Jesus?

 

Isa 43:11-12

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the Lord; and BESIDES ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

 

Isa 45:21-22

Declare and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath caused this to be heard from ancient time? who hath declared it long ago? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour, there is none besides me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

i don't care who is proclaiming the gospel, as long as they preach it correctly. why is a person who doesn't believe in any of the bible telling me what i can and can't believe in.

 

1 reference to gospels

Freeday, buddy... im not telling you what to believe. I never once did. What you believe is up to you. I have no problems with that. All im doing is pointing out the logistics. As in, im just making sure you dont believe falsely. Like when you first started posting here. We had that discussion on the authorship of Moses. Youve always been told that Moses wrote the first 5 books. Then i brought up the point of if he was the author, why are the books written in 3rd person? And also, how could he have written about his own death? You replied to me, to paraphrase, "gee, i never thought about that." Im just bringing to you critical thoughts. That's all.

 

To reword and rephrase what the others said in the other thread: we can lead you to rational thought, but it's up to you to think

[freeday]

this is what i consider to be trivial stuff. i am talking about the big stuff, we all agree on the 10 comandments and that Jesus is the son of God. these are the core elements that i think are important.

So you think the role women play in church is trivial? You dont think they can be a major influence on a congregation? Who are you to decide what's important in Christianity? God? You cannot omit rules and laws given in the bible. You cannot deem them unimportant. Rhemember:

 

2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

Matthew 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations"

 

notice he said all nations, not all men or only men.

Im confused. I was just asking why you say some instructions in the bible are unimportant. I didnt ask who does Jesus have authority over, or who gave him the authority. I also asked what gives you the authority to to make the decision of what is and isnt important. Well, i guess since you referenced Jesus saying he has all authority, your implication is that your Jesus?

 

Great. You quoted Jesus again!! But i can do one better. There is one that proceeds Jesus. Even Jesus admitted this. I can quote God. Jesus says that authority has been given to him. What did God say:

 

Isa 42:8

I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory I will not give to another, neither my praise to graven images

 

While im quoting God, what did God say about needing Jesus?

 

Isa 43:11-12

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the Lord; and BESIDES ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

 

Isa 45:21-22

Declare and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath caused this to be heard from ancient time? who hath declared it long ago? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour, there is none besides me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

i don't care who is proclaiming the gospel, as long as they preach it correctly. why is a person who doesn't believe in any of the bible telling me what i can and can't believe in.

 

1 reference to gospels

Freeday, buddy... im not telling you what to believe. I never once did. What you believe is up to you. I have no problems with that. All im doing is pointing out the logistics. As in, im just making sure you dont believe falsely. Like when you first started posting here. We had that discussion on the authorship of Moses. Youve always been told that Moses wrote the first 5 books. Then i brought up the point of if he was the author, why are the books written in 3rd person? And also, how could he have written about his own death? You replied to me, to paraphrase, "gee, i never thought about that." Im just bringing to you critical thoughts. That's all.

 

To reword and rephrase what the others said in the other thread: we can lead you to rational thought, but it's up to you to think

 

i was just messing with you rhemy, i like your points of view, i guess the point i was making, although i look at the word as the word of God, i am very much relaxed in the interpritation. so the little stuff doesn't sweat me.

[duderonomy]

Freeday,

 

you said;

 

 

"i was just messing with you rhemy, i like your points of view, i guess the point i was making, although i look at the word as the word of God, i am very much relaxed in the interpritation. so the little stuff doesn't sweat me. "

 

You know where liars go.

[freeday]

Freeday,

 

you said;

 

 

"i was just messing with you rhemy, i like your points of view, i guess the point i was making, although i look at the word as the word of God, i am very much relaxed in the interpritation. so the little stuff doesn't sweat me. "

 

You know where liars go.

 

thats why i pray for forgiveness every night. i know i am a man in need of a savior!

[RHEMtron]

freeday... all i can say is.... ughhhh... werd haha

[SkepticOfBible]

Hey FD,

 

Sorry for replying late. Been quite busy

nothing wrong with using the OT to provide examples and learning opportunities,

 

Yes, nothing wrong with using the OT to prove you point, eg when christians want to condemn Gays or when preachers want to coerce money out of their congregration by using Malachi verse (which btw is again used out of context)

 

bu i think the NT is the best source for the information of salvation

 

The NT engages in lot of revisionism of the Old testament, just like the Book of Mormon(I presume so because I have not read the Book of Mormon).

 

Like I said to you before the Salvation in the Old testament came from observing the law rather than a faith in a illegal human/god sacrifice.

 

anything taken to the extreme will lose it meaning and purpose. of course not, we should not kill babies.

 

Err..it is not me who said, it is good thing that the Isrealites killed the babies........ it was you. Tell what is the difference between doctors aborting babies to send them to heaven vs Isrealites brutally murdering them?

 

Besides my question wasn't about the status of the souls of babies, my question was in response to your statement about these people and children deserving God's punishment?What crime did these children and babies commit, apart from being born in a wrong race, that they deserved god's "Just" punishment?

 

Why was it hard for the Hebrew God to say, to "spare the innocent"? I have no problem about God taking away the life of these people, it is manner that the action is done, is the real issue/ These actions do not sound words of compassionate and loving God. If you are killing off your sick dog, you don't torture him to death you try to do it in humane manner. However the Yahweh fails to meet standard of human decency.

 

To me it is more easier to believe that the Isrealite invented their tribal war god, so that they can justify their barbaric actions rather than the command coming from creator of this universe, who claims to be compassionate.

 

there is a verse in the gospels that states it is better to have never known than to know and reject.

 

Please cite the context and verse please. Does this apply to the salvation issue?

i feel sure God has a way of dealing with people who are under age, or never been exposed to the gospels.

 

Be careful what you say Freeday. You are pretty much saying that it is possible to get salvation without faith in christ and that Jesus is not the only way to his father.

 

According you to your protestant theology, people are condemned by default, and the only thing that saves you is faith in Christ. Babies and Ignorant believers are going to straight to hell.

 

Just in case you think I am exaggerating and taking it to extreme, here is the official position of the GotQuestions.org.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism.

 

in one of the jesus' teachings he tells the desciples to go to each town, spread the word, if it is not recieve, shake you sandalls off and carry on to the next town.

 

The Gospels also say that the believers who preach would do many miracles, and would be sign of validatity that Jesus was sent by the God of the Old Testament. Are believers to do so?

 

If one read the NT, there is a direct correlation with conversion/preaching and miracles. That is certainly not the case with today's believers

 

You do realise by preaching in many of the muslims countries(Saudi Arabia) they are endangering themselves and the target audience?

[SkepticOfBible]

freeday... all i can say is.... ughhhh... werd haha

 

hey Freeday, are you a ex-mormon?

[SkepticOfBible]

this is what i consider to be trivial stuff. i am talking about the big stuff, we all agree on the 10 comandments and that Jesus is the son of God. these are the core elements that i think are important.

 

Err, ever heard about the Seventh Day adventist. They believe the Sabbath should be celebrated on the Saturday, the rest of the christiandom says otherwise.

 

Since you say believing Jesus being a son of God is core doctrine, then I presume you have no problem identifying Mormons and JW as valid christians

 

i think that catholics beleive when you die, you go to a holding area until Jesus' second coming, most baptist believe that when you die, you imediately go to Heaven. i don't think it matters either way.

 

You are talking about Purgotary and Catholics do not believe everybody will go there.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Catholic_Theology

After death, people who had repented for their sins, but had not expiated ("paid for") them, are purged before entering Heaven

 

BTW, did you know that according to Catholics, it is possible (not definate) for unbelievers to be saved based on their works?(Boy talk about difference in doctrines)

[Ouroboros]

thats why i pray for forgiveness every night. i know i am a man in need of a savior!

Freeday, I think you're a cool dude, and you're easy to talk to. But here's a question for you:

 

Do you ever have doubt if there is a God, or if Jesus read did exist, or that you really are going to Heaven?

 

Has it ever crossed your mind that you could be wrong about these things?

[K9 Jake]

HanSolo,

 

I know you presented that question to Freeday. But I thought I would posts some of my thoughts in here as a self proclaimed Christian, but having a slightly different viewpoint in regards to certain beliefs.

 

I can say that I have never much questioned whether or not there was a God. Since as far back as I can recall, I have always beleived. Now in my younger years you could chalk that up to being taught so, versus feeling or knowing so, but thats another discussion for another day. I did however question some of my religious traditions. Most of my questions never actually came until I joined the military and moved away from home. I have been away now since 02 March 1999. I do visit home about once a year on leave. I think most of my questions didnt really come until I was away from everything, and met many new people from all over the world, with many different beliefs (including my wife). She is from the US, but holds a slightly different view from myself. And I respect that.

 

I can also say that this site has honestly made me think, thus far atleast. I never realized exactly how many contradictions there are in the good book. Obiously I noticed some myself through study and observation, which helped me to my current state of decision. But I have seen many more than I ever noticed. I still believe the underlying message to be there, but it further adds to my belief that much of the literal text was tainted (for lack of a better word) over time. And that is assuming that it was pure and error free from mankinds hands in its very first original form (which is unlikely).

 

I also thought I would share a quote from a movie that I enjoyed a good while back called 'Kingdom of Heaven'. Yes I know this quote is from a movie ( I am a movie buff), but I find it extremely inspirational.

 

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here,

[points to head] and here, [points to heart] and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man. Or not".

 

 

Now a side note or request. I am interested in what any of you consider good books regarding religion, or counter religion if you will. I would like to read a couple good books from both view points. I am open to any suggestions, but the main thing I am looking for is reliable sources. Not someones personal opinions on either side of the fence. The topic can be the Bible or it can be Science versus Religion etc. I am not neccessarily set on one particular aspect. This is part of why I am here, to try and learn why people think and believe what they do from both sides.

[Ouroboros]

I liked the movie quote K9, very nice.

 

Regarding religious literature, I've read books about theology, mythology and other stuff, and I can find something good in almost any fictitious or mythological story. Harry Potter, Tao Te Ching, The Robot and Foundation series by Asimov and much more. All of them contains insights into humanity and the higher thoughts and philosophies of mankind. I don't see one book as the one and only "holy" book, but I think all of them have something to say about us, more they have to say about "God". Even the Bible is about how we are supposed to interact with God and act according to God, and not so much what/who/where God is. There are a lot of imagery in the Bible of God's nature, but they are conflicting and very allegorical in nature, so they say more about how we can NOT understand God (if he exists). Basically the holy books tell us that whatever we see as God, is so far beyond our understanding, that to claim that we do understand him/her/it is a fallacy. And that's where religious people make the first step into fundamentalism and dangerous dogma.

[K9 Jake]

I liked the movie quote K9, very nice.

 

Regarding religious literature, I've read books about theology, mythology and other stuff, and I can find something good in almost any fictitious or mythological story. Harry Potter, Tao Te Ching, The Robot and Foundation series by Asimov and much more. All of them contains insights into humanity and the higher thoughts and philosophies of mankind. I don't see one book as the one and only "holy" book, but I think all of them have something to say about us, more they have to say about "God". Even the Bible is about how we are supposed to interact with God and act according to God, and not so much what/who/where God is. There are a lot of imagery in the Bible of God's nature, but they are conflicting and very allegorical in nature, so they say more about how we can NOT understand God (if he exists). Basically the holy books tell us that whatever we see as God, is so far beyond our understanding, that to claim that we do understand him/her/it is a fallacy. And that's where religious people make the first step into fundamentalism and dangerous dogma.

 

 

By books I am not speaking about books regarding Greek mythology. I am not talking about Harry Potter or that sort of thing. But you are correct. All do contain insights into humanity.

One example is a book that is advertised on this website 'The Dark Side'. From what I've read reviews wise on this site, another example from a very different point of view would be the new Anne Coulter book 'Godless'. I guess thats what I am getting at. So if anyone has any suggestions from either side, I am interested.

[Eponymic]

By books I am not speaking about books regarding Greek mythology. I am not talking about Harry Potter or that sort of thing.

 

 

Essentially, you are though.

 

The Bible is a book, and is just another mythology. The only difference is that it's still believed. Whereas the other mythologies were believed, but aren't anymore.

 

In my opinion, all religious factions are mythology. We really don't have enough facts to say factually what religions claim to know about God.

[K9 Jake]

By books I am not speaking about books regarding Greek mythology. I am not talking about Harry Potter or that sort of thing.

 

 

Essentially, you are though.

 

The Bible is a book, and is just another mythology. The only difference is that it's still believed. Whereas the other mythologies were believed, but aren't anymore.

 

In my opinion, all religious factions are mythology. We really don't have enough facts to say factually what religions claim to know about God.

 

 

I guess I am just not communicating my thoughts effectively. I gave two examples of books. One in favor, one against. Both claim to hold facts, or proof against the other way of thought. I was just looking for some interesting reading. If no one has any suggestions then I will just pick whatever book jacket catches my fancy. But I will wait a while, and see if anyone gives me any suggested reading.

[Skankboy]

Asimov's Guide to the Bible: The Old and New Testaments

Why People Believe Weird Things (shermer)

Demon Haunted World (sagan)

 

The first is by far my favorite. Isaac Asimov takes an exhaustive look at the books of the bible and places them in their proper historical context.

[K9 Jake]

Asimov's Guide to the Bible: The Old and New Testaments

Why People Believe Weird Things (shermer)

Demon Haunted World (sagan)

 

The first is by far my favorite. Isaac Asimov takes an exhaustive look at the books of the bible and places them in their proper historical context.

 

Thanks. I will do some research and give them a look. I did a quick look online to get a brief synopsis of each. Without a doubt, Asimov's book appears to be the most interesting read of the three to me.

[RHEMtron]

i was just messing with you rhemy, i like your points of view, i guess the point i was making, although i look at the word as the word of God, i am very much relaxed in the interpritation. so the little stuff doesn't sweat me.

That's it?! After the novel i wrote with such passion that's it!! Not even a "You just have to have faith", but a "i like your points of view". That's not right Youre not supposed to agree

 

again, i guess all i can say is just... ughhhhhhhh... werd.

[trashy]

Where does God send the handicapped people?

 

to the easy-access ramp just to the right of the Pearly Gates.....

[freeday]

Hey FD,

 

Sorry for replying late. Been quite busy

nothing wrong with using the OT to provide examples and learning opportunities,

 

Yes, nothing wrong with using the OT to prove you point, eg when christians want to condemn Gays or when preachers want to coerce money out of their congregration by using Malachi verse (which btw is again used out of context)

 

bu i think the NT is the best source for the information of salvation

 

The NT engages in lot of revisionism of the Old testament, just like the Book of Mormon(I presume so because I have not read the Book of Mormon).

 

Like I said to you before the Salvation in the Old testament came from observing the law rather than a faith in a illegal human/god sacrifice.

 

anything taken to the extreme will lose it meaning and purpose. of course not, we should not kill babies.

 

Err..it is not me who said, it is good thing that the Isrealites killed the babies........ it was you. Tell what is the difference between doctors aborting babies to send them to heaven vs Isrealites brutally murdering them?

 

Besides my question wasn't about the status of the souls of babies, my question was in response to your statement about these people and children deserving God's punishment?What crime did these children and babies commit, apart from being born in a wrong race, that they deserved god's "Just" punishment?

 

Why was it hard for the Hebrew God to say, to "spare the innocent"? I have no problem about God taking away the life of these people, it is manner that the action is done, is the real issue/ These actions do not sound words of compassionate and loving God. If you are killing off your sick dog, you don't torture him to death you try to do it in humane manner. However the Yahweh fails to meet standard of human decency.

 

To me it is more easier to believe that the Isrealite invented their tribal war god, so that they can justify their barbaric actions rather than the command coming from creator of this universe, who claims to be compassionate.

 

there is a verse in the gospels that states it is better to have never known than to know and reject.

 

Please cite the context and verse please. Does this apply to the salvation issue?

i feel sure God has a way of dealing with people who are under age, or never been exposed to the gospels.

 

Be careful what you say Freeday. You are pretty much saying that it is possible to get salvation without faith in christ and that Jesus is not the only way to his father.

 

According you to your protestant theology, people are condemned by default, and the only thing that saves you is faith in Christ. Babies and Ignorant believers are going to straight to hell.

 

Just in case you think I am exaggerating and taking it to extreme, here is the official position of the GotQuestions.org.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism.

 

in one of the jesus' teachings he tells the desciples to go to each town, spread the word, if it is not recieve, shake you sandalls off and carry on to the next town.

 

The Gospels also say that the believers who preach would do many miracles, and would be sign of validatity that Jesus was sent by the God of the Old Testament. Are believers to do so?

 

If one read the NT, there is a direct correlation with conversion/preaching and miracles. That is certainly not the case with today's believers

 

You do realise by preaching in many of the muslims countries(Saudi Arabia) they are endangering themselves and the target audience?

 

that is to funny. i go to gotquestions.org all the time, and always agree with what they say. but the link above, i do not agree with. i believe it is the best way to make it to heaven, and God will have special circumstances where he might permit an unsaved person. like i have said before, i believe in a loving God. when i read verses like "nobody comes to the father, except through Christ", i take it as he will be the ultimate authority of who he lets into his kingdom. i could be wrong.

 

 

i was just messing with you rhemy, i like your points of view, i guess the point i was making, although i look at the word as the word of God, i am very much relaxed in the interpritation. so the little stuff doesn't sweat me.

That's it?! After the novel i wrote with such passion that's it!! Not even a "You just have to have faith", but a "i like your points of view". That's not right Youre not supposed to agree

 

again, i guess all i can say is just... ughhhhhhhh... werd.

 

i agree with you, God said these things, but i beleive Jesus to be God, along with the Holy spirit. do i need to show you my spirit fingers.

 

 

Where does God send the handicapped people?

 

to the easy-access ramp just to the right of the Pearly Gates.....

 

 

[freeday]

thats why i pray for forgiveness every night. i know i am a man in need of a savior!

Freeday, I think you're a cool dude, and you're easy to talk to. But here's a question for you:

 

Do you ever have doubt if there is a God, or if Jesus read did exist, or that you really are going to Heaven?

 

Has it ever crossed your mind that you could be wrong about these things?

 

God, no. Jesus, no. going to heaven, yes. a christian that doubts going to heaven, is still a young growing christian. not at the "nirvana" yet. for lack of better words.

 

i feel in my heart that i am right, but i don't look at others as wrong (i am reffering to different sects of christianity). kind of strange. but that is the best i can explain it.

[freeday]

HanSolo,

 

I know you presented that question to Freeday. But I thought I would posts some of my thoughts in here as a self proclaimed Christian, but having a slightly different viewpoint in regards to certain beliefs.

 

I can say that I have never much questioned whether or not there was a God. Since as far back as I can recall, I have always beleived. Now in my younger years you could chalk that up to being taught so, versus feeling or knowing so, but thats another discussion for another day. I did however question some of my religious traditions. Most of my questions never actually came until I joined the military and moved away from home. I have been away now since 02 March 1999. I do visit home about once a year on leave. I think most of my questions didnt really come until I was away from everything, and met many new people from all over the world, with many different beliefs (including my wife). She is from the US, but holds a slightly different view from myself. And I respect that.

 

I can also say that this site has honestly made me think, thus far atleast. I never realized exactly how many contradictions there are in the good book. Obiously I noticed some myself through study and observation, which helped me to my current state of decision. But I have seen many more than I ever noticed. I still believe the underlying message to be there, but it further adds to my belief that much of the literal text was tainted (for lack of a better word) over time. And that is assuming that it was pure and error free from mankinds hands in its very first original form (which is unlikely).

 

I also thought I would share a quote from a movie that I enjoyed a good while back called 'Kingdom of Heaven'. Yes I know this quote is from a movie ( I am a movie buff), but I find it extremely inspirational.

 

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is here,

[points to head] and here, [points to heart] and by what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man. Or not".

 

 

Now a side note or request. I am interested in what any of you consider good books regarding religion, or counter religion if you will. I would like to read a couple good books from both view points. I am open to any suggestions, but the main thing I am looking for is reliable sources. Not someones personal opinions on either side of the fence. The topic can be the Bible or it can be Science versus Religion etc. I am not neccessarily set on one particular aspect. This is part of why I am here, to try and learn why people think and believe what they do from both sides.

 

what contradictions have you found in the bible? remember, there are always two sides of the story. it is up to you to decide what is right or not. every one on here that i have seen, i have given a reasonable explanation for. some will say it's not, but i think it made sense to me.

 

i would strongly urge you not to read anti-christian books. there arguements can be very persuasive. remember, christianity is based on faith. not proof.

 

if you want a good book to read about science and God, let me know, i can recomend one that is great.

 

great movie qoute by the way. did you ever watch the bonus material on the second disc about the crusades, very interesting stuff. i think it was done by A&E.

[K9 Jake]

Freeday,

 

Thats just it, I was always taught that Bible wise there was only one side to the story and that was it. Or maybe you were just referring to if another person pointed out a what appeared to be a contradiction, and someone else gave a counterpoint to why they thought it wasn't.

I am not trying to rationalize everything in the Bible. If I needed logical, concrete, scientifically supported proof of everything, I probably wouldn't believe in God. I do have my faith.

 

You and I have talked a little on the writings of the Bible. So here goes. Do you believe that every last transcribed word of the Holy Bible is completely correct? Do you believe that it has been translated thousands of times exactly as it was meant to be (the phrase lost in translation comes to mind), or has never been even remotely added to or taken away from? The Bible was written by men. And according to our faith we are all fallible. I will wait until you answer, but if you do believe that there is even one mistake possible in the Bible, which I am blaming on men, not God, then a contradiction is not far fetched. Now as someone pointed earlier, if two authors contradicted one another in the Bible, it is possible that they saw an event two different ways. We all see things slightly different. But that would not negate the fact that it was still a contradiction.

 

If you are asking me to go back and dig up scriptures specifically I will, but that will take time. I can say that there is no shortage of them on these threads. Some I obvisouly believe are being taken out of context, but some I believe to be actual contradictions.

 

You've known me long enough to know that I am down to read whatever you suggest. As far as books from other perspectives, I am not out to change my mind or my beliefs. I am just trying to keep my mind open and do some constructive reading. I am still stuck over here on this assignment for another 7 months. Other than the stupid ass non-stop exercises ,I am trying to fill up my time with something other than drinking soju.

[SkepticOfBible]

. when i read verses like "nobody comes to the father, except through Christ", i take it as he will be the ultimate authority of who he lets into his kingdom. i could be wrong

 

And then there are verses in your bible which makes it absolutely clear that unbelievers are condemned.

 

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

John 3:18

He that believeth on him(Jesus) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

1 John 2:22-23

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

Heb 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

 

As the Gotquestions.org pointed out, the New Testament doesn't leave room for any person, no matter how old they are or whether they are ignorant unbelievers, to be exempt from going through Jesus to reach God the Father and avoid his wrath.

 

These verses, like so many others in the Bible, are absolutist in nature. They do not say that some people are exempt from the rules even though you are mentally revising them to make the Bible sound more rational. It says right over there that someone who doesn't accept Jesus as their personal "savior" and believe that he was the expected king Messiah, they are liars and stand condemned by God "the Father"(including babies and people like Gandhi, and off course the Jews who died in the holocaust at the hands of the christian oppressor)

 

It's ironic that many Christians(not you), who are so fond of telling non-believers that human rational thought can't be applied to God's word, attempt to do exactly that in order to make the Bible less barbaric sounding.

 

Please present scripture which support your assertion, otherwise according to you bible, every unbeliever will goto Hell.

 

i would strongly urge you not to read anti-christian books. there arguements can be very persuasive. remember, christianity is based on faith. not proof.

Is it because you fear your faith is not strong?

 

Do you agree that Mormons ought not to read anti-mormon books that are written by Christians?

 

If they are speakin falsehood, in this day and age it isn't difficult to find out.

 

, i have given a reasonable explanation for. some will say it's not, but i think it made sense to me.

For those who want to believe, anything that sounds pseudo logical or scholarly would suffice.

 

Here is a quick test. whether or not the answer is good. Just ask yourself would you accept such an answer if a mormom/Islamic apologetic would present this arguement for a similar contradiction for their holy book?

 

You and I have talked a little on the writings of the Bible. So here goes. Do you believe that every last transcribed word of the Holy Bible is completely correct? Do you believe that it has been translated thousands of times exactly as it was meant to be (the phrase lost in translation comes to mind), or has never been even remotely added to or taken away from? The Bible was written by men.

So how do figure which part of the bible belongs to God and which one is result of the corruption of man?

[Antlerman]

i would strongly urge you not to read anti-christian books. there arguements can be very persuasive. remember, christianity is based on faith. not proof.

Oh freeday, you make this far too easy! Say this comment out loud to yourself substituting the word "science" for "chirstianity", and "fact" for "faith" as you hold up the book you bought to learn about science as properly taught by a Theologian/Car Mechanic: "Dismantling Evolution"

 

This is quite the double-standard you have here. Given a race to the finish line, I would put Jake's approach to faith easily the one that will survive the long haul, because he doesn't nurture it by building walls around it and burying his head in the sand.

 

Why not read books criticizing religion? Unlike criticizing science which requires specialized training and knowledge, everyone is a philosopher on some level and choosing a philosophy that suits you is totally based on subjective preferences. When it comes to religious beliefs, everyone on the planet is an expert by virtue of living. So read away, since unlike science "Christianity is based on faith, not proof."

[Ouroboros]

what contradictions have you found in the bible? remember, there are always two sides of the story. it is up to you to decide what is right or not. every one on here that i have seen, i have given a reasonable explanation for. some will say it's not, but i think it made sense to me.

You want contradictions? We have plenty.

 

Let me pick one randomly from the pile:

 

The Nephilim, the giants that is a result of copulation between Fallen Angels (or Sons of God) just before the Flood. And they appear again later after the flood. Was Noah a Nephilim Giant himself, or one of his sons (adopted?) or one of the sons' wives? Or is the Giants considered a "kind" of animal? Somehow they survived according to the Bible, maybe the explanation is that it was not a Global flood? But then the Bible is wrong again by claiming it was a global flood.

 

Ge 6:4

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

 

13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

 

Nu 13:33

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

 

And of course I can find you many more contradictions. No one have explained yet how a planet can have just one single event per day called day and night. Genesis 1, and it was night and it was day. On a planet (globe, sphere, rotating in space) you have mornings, noons, evenings, nights every second. It's rotation you know. And how can there be even the events of day and night without the sun for the first days?

 

These are contradictions, or at least admit they are strange claims, in the Bible. And they are not invented by an evil conspiracy of atheists. These things are in the Bible.

 

Heck, while you're at it, can you explain Paul's comment about the Epimenides statement about Cretans? The so called Liars Paradox. Why does Paul say "it's true", when every philosopher and logician knows that it can't be? He's wrong, but is he wrong because he's stupid or because the author intentionally put this contradiction in the Bible to hint to the smarter people that the Bible is NOT truly inspired by God? God wouldn't make this mistake, unless he also intended us to know that we shouldn't trust the book fully.

 

Titus 1:12 Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true.

 

Here's another interesting conflict too. The Torah was written by the Jews. Right? And it's God's word, and the foundation for Jesus and the Christian faith. Read next verse in Titus:

Titus 1:14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth

Paul say the Jews have myths. What kind of myths? Scriptural, liturgical, theological? What kind? Does he really mean that the Torah is a myth? What is a Jewish believer. Think about it. They believe in the Torah, and preach and teach from the Torah. And Paul say they have myths! You don't find Jews preaching from Harry Potter do you? No, the Jews would believe in Moses and the Prophets. So is the OT a myth?

 

There's a lot of these things in the book. But there are also very strange situations, where normal logic and reason just can't accept what's going on.

 

Like the sun standing still. The inertia we would have when the Earth stop spinning would cause everyone to fly miles up in the air, maybe even pass the escape velocity.

 

Or that Israel had 1.5 to 2 million people crossing the "Red Sea", and the Egyptian army that were following them consisted of maybe 600-1000 soldiers. Damn, Israel only needed to start screaming all at once to scare all the horses away. I mean, they were not few according to the Bible. Unless the numbers are all wrong.

 

Just having fun with you Freeday.

 

Another question, not really Biblical, but still in the context of what the Bible say about things in the world. How does the Bible explain that human males (men, like me) have nipples? It doesn't does it? So what's your take on it, why did God create nipples (and milk glands) on men?