Fundamentals

[Antlerman]

There is no need to fear not knowing. It is when your mind is quite is when you will feel God's presence. Once again...IMO.

THAT is the problem for many people. It is being afraid of the sky being open. It is that phobia of some who look up at the sky and feel like they're going to fall off the earth. Agoraphobia. Fundamentalists are Agoraphobics. They need a roof over their heads. Open-ended truths frighten them. They need a closed system. They feel like their going to fall off the earth without nearby walls and a ceiling.

 

Problem is there is so much more to be experienced outside without any walls!

[Open_Minded]

Hello Antlerman, Freeday, Amanda, Notblinded and others... Just jumping in here quick.

 

I've been reading this thread off and on. It is fascinating and I'm enjoying all the insights. I don't have much to add, that hasn't already been said. But, this conversation is fascinating ...

 

I Like the way you all think.

[Antlerman]

Don't you think that people are at different levels in their spiritual journeys? When ever the student is ready, the teacher appears? It seems that people are probably where they are suppose to be. It is probably not 'meant' to be, that all are to be at the same place. Of course there seems to be different paths too, which I think end in the same place. The only aspect I see as detrimental is the condemnation of another's beliefs... unless it hurts someone or is the forcing of it on others. Then again, it seems okay to ask someone to analyze the rationale supporting their beliefs, that seems like a perfectly valid thing to do.

I see it this way too. I still find it funny how I hear passages of scripture sometimes to describe where I am at, "When I was a child I thought as a child, I spoke as a child, but when I became an adult I put aways childish things". When I was a fundamentalist it was what I guess attracted me for where I was at on the road. I gained some positive things from it, but like the braces on the legs of Forest Gump, they had to come off so I could run free on my own legs. This is why if you if you've read back in some of my posts to someone like Amy, I rarely push really hard in challenging her views because she is definitely hanging on tight to them for her reasons, but freeday on the other hand....

 

Also, it seems to me... Freeday has been about the most open minded fundamentalist to come here. Am I right?

Yes Freeday is a cool person. Definitely not our old buddy Subby!!

[freeday]

i wouldn't look at it as people want to live Godless, sinfull lives. i think that people forget about him, and he becomes less and less important in thier lives as time passes, then it gets to a point where it becomes routine not to worship him. then people get comfortable in their distant relationship with God.

I suppose that might be true with people who were part of a religion for purely social reasons, in which case they are not really forgetting about God, but the lifestyles and practices of the Christian culutre. It sort of like, when you break up with a long term relationship you have to break the patterns and routines established surrounding that person, until in time you no longer have those rituals associated with them.

 

But in the case of those like us who were very much seeking meaning, truth, fulfillment, etc, it's less a case of "forgetting about God", as it is being disappointed in the offerings of the system and abandoning it in the quest for meaning and answers that do speak to our questions. I would not ever say at any point that I am "comfortable in their distant relationship with God." That same drive that took me to look to the Church has never left me and there is nothing distant about that at all in me.

 

For me I would say that I feel more freed from the shackles of the religious insistance on "The Truth" found in their theological definitions of God that box in all that idea stands for, than living "outside the church". Reality is that I am infinitely more alive than stuck in a relationship that hardly addressed the basic needs of my heart or intellect. That's vastly different than being comfortable with a distant relationship with God.

 

i think most people are born with an instinct to comply with the societies norms, in don't think people want to live immoral lives regardless of religous beliefs, or lack of them.

Agreed.

 

i think christianity can provide the answers to the meaning of the world by using the bible (which i guess would be reaching back).

Disagreed. If it could it would.

 

BTW, I don't consider using the Bible for spiritual insights is the same as what I mean by nostalgia or the fundamentalist turning back the clock. What I mean by reaching back, is to dismiss the legitamacy of the knowledge of the world today in favor of notions of any previous culture. The Bible has plenty of timeless axioms, but also plenty of things that cannot be applied to today's world. The world is not static, and to say the Bible applies in everything to all time is a fallacy.

 

but if you come to the conclusion thier is a higher power, don't you want to find a religion that will explain him to you, not just wonder around in the dark.

Right there in red is the reason you and others are attracted to fundamentalism, and why it utterly failed for me! You're trying to define the undefinable. You're trying to make the menu choices simple. However, the meal is mediocre food. Any attempt to do so has put God in a box and limits the potential for the human spirit, and furthermore put the power of the knowledge of God into the hands of individuals who run the system.

 

"Wander around in the dark" is propeganda from those who want to perserve their hold of the definitions of God. It is hardly wandering around in the dark. It is a boundless exploration of the human spirit that in unchained by saying No to theology. All the axioms of being born again, etc applies equally to all points of major spiritual insights in the human experience anywhere in the world. Franky, I chuckle that my "salvation" happened when I left the church.

 

i understand that in your case and several others in the world, lost thier faith due to lack of answers and in thier search, found other things. i was just stating in a general sense of why i thought that christianity as a whole was on a decline in the states. but i do feel in the NT, Jesus addressed many questions on how our relationship should be with God and what he expects from us. he didn't answer many questions, but i would imagine that those aren't really that important, or at least important to the people of that time.

 

and you are right, we can't define God exactly, and we don't know everything about him. i did a bible study a while back, "believing God" by beth moore. it was very good, and really approached him as very powerfull, yet we don't believe that he has the power. since we don't see miracles in our days, we sometimes lack in our belief that he can do them. so in conclusion, i think when people try to define God and his power, they are trying to emphasize to christians that he can do what he says.

 

just asking, you talk of human spirits as if you believe we have one?

 

 

but if you come to the conclusion thier is a higher power, don't you want to find a religion that will explain him to you, not just wonder around in the dark.

When you put aside the image of God that man has created, you will then find God. I have come to understand what Jesus meant when he said to be as little children. IMO, he meant to forget everything that you have been taught and to look at the world as a child sees it before they have been taught how to see it. They are not worrying about tomorrow or yesterday, they are living for that very moment with no preconceived notions about anything. Jesus also talks about this in the sermon on the mount. "See how the flower grows, it toils not"...etc. God isn't in the description. There is no need to fear not knowing. It is when your mind is quite is when you will feel God's presence. Once again...IMO.

 

i like your point your making, the only problem that i do have is that children do live in the moment, not thinking about tomorrow or the past. this brings up a problem, because i think you need to be able to look past the moment to establish a future. this is why children do foolish things that endanger thier lives, why they blow a whole weeks paycheck at a clothing store, why they will take risks without evaluting the outcome. i don't think this is a good way to live your spiritual life. or your life in general.

 

a good point though.

[Amanda]

When you put aside the image of God that man has created, you will then find God. I have come to understand what Jesus meant when he said to be as little children. IMO, he meant to forget everything that you have been taught and to look at the world as a child sees it before they have been taught how to see it. They are not worrying about tomorrow or yesterday, they are living for that very moment with no preconceived notions about anything. Jesus also talks about this in the sermon on the mount. "See how the flower grows, it toils not"...etc. God isn't in the description. There is no need to fear not knowing. It is when your mind is quite is when you will feel God's presence. Once again...IMO.

 

i like your point your making, the only problem that i do have is that children do live in the moment, not thinking about tomorrow or the past. this brings up a problem, because i think you need to be able to look past the moment to establish a future. this is why children do foolish things that endanger thier lives, why they blow a whole weeks paycheck at a clothing store, why they will take risks without evaluting the outcome. i don't think this is a good way to live your spiritual life. or your life in general.

 

a good point though.

That's interesting how different people take it different ways.

 

I thought to come as a child is to come with the mindset that you don't already know everything and be willing to see things from a fresh perspective.

[Skankboy]

I thought to come as a child is to come with the mindset that you don't already know everything and be willing to see things from a fresh perspective.

 

Agreed. My take on that verse was always that we need to approach faith without preconceived notions or expectations...

 

[freeday]

I thought to come as a child is to come with the mindset that you don't already know everything and be willing to see things from a fresh perspective.

 

Agreed. My take on that verse was always that we need to approach faith without preconceived notions or expectations...

 

 

i can agree with that. i have just recently reread the gospels, trying to block all prior knowlegde that i have learned, i found some things that raise questions to the mainstream theology, but as a whole, my mind didn't change much.

[Antlerman]

i understand that in your case and several others in the world, lost thier faith due to lack of answers and in thier search, found other things. i was just stating in a general sense of why i thought that christianity as a whole was on a decline in the states. but i do feel in the NT, Jesus addressed many questions on how our relationship should be with God and what he expects from us. he didn't answer many questions, but i would imagine that those aren't really that important, or at least important to the people of that time.

Sure, Jesus is talking about a relationship to God, but it is many times through a cultural filter that is not ours, and hence why the message needs to be updated to the language of today’s culture. This is why it fails to speak to the world today. Imagine Benjamin Franklin being brought back to life today and try to speak to us in his language of the culture he lived in. Some things might make some sense, kind of, but not near as clearly without an interpreter trying to help us to understand what he means, bringing our understandings of the world to his. How Christianity fails is they like in this analogy, there are translators of ‘ole Ben, but instead of living in 2006, they are using the language from the Civil War era.

 

Is it answers we are looking for, or relevance?

 

BTW, one important thing I’d like to ask you: You mention how Jesus addresses what our relationship with God should be and what he expects from us, but isn’t a relationship two ways? What should we expect from God? Do you think it is unreasonable to expect communication in a loving relationship? When I hear people say that God is sovereign and we are to obey him, then I don’t think they should then portray this as a relationship. That’s servitude. Should I expect a spouse to obey me then call that love? Not in our world.

 

This is one area reflecting cultural differences from the days of the desert tribes, where language will make or break you. Women are not to keep silent in our world, but they cleary were in Paul’s, despite any excuses we try to make for his words.

 

but if you come to the conclusion thier is a higher power, don't you want to find a religion that will explain him to you, not just wonder around in the dark.

Right there in red is the reason you and others are attracted to fundamentalism, and why it utterly failed for me! You're trying to define the undefinable. You're trying to make the menu choices simple. However, the meal is mediocre food. Any attempt to do so has put God in a box and limits the potential for the human spirit, and furthermore put the power of the knowledge of God into the hands of individuals who run the system.

 

"Wander around in the dark" is propeganda from those who want to perserve their hold of the definitions of God. It is hardly wandering around in the dark. It is a boundless exploration of the human spirit that in unchained by saying No to theology. All the axioms of being born again, etc applies equally to all points of major spiritual insights in the human experience anywhere in the world. Franky, I chuckle that my "salvation" happened when I left the church.

 

 

and you are right, we can't define God exactly, and we don't know everything about him. i did a bible study a while back, "believing God" by beth moore. it was very good, and really approached him as very powerfull, yet we don't believe that he has the power. since we don't see miracles in our days, we sometimes lack in our belief that he can do them. so in conclusion, i think when people try to define God and his power, they are trying to emphasize to christians that he can do what he says.

But in so doing they are attacking my mind with nonsense!!! It sounds like a bunch of rationalizations and excuses for something they think should be evident. If you are saying they shouldn’t try to “explain” God, then I agree with you. But you yourself did say above that it is a good thing to “find a religion that will explain him to you.”

 

The explanations that I heard, and continue to hear without anything much better being offered are seen as human rationalizations and excuses that rely on nothing better than flimsy logic arguments. My mind sees the fallacy of the arguments. I suppose for others, it “sounds good enough” for them to dismiss their questions, but for me I cannot overlook the fact that the “explanations” are poor answers and only tells me of man’s dishonesty with himself. This pretty much sums up my perspective of theology and apologetics.

 

Like I’ve mention a number of times elsewhere before (I don’t know if it was ever to you or not), the first sermon I preached when I was a student was really the only one that ever needs to be said. It was on the greatest commandment, “love God and love your neighbor as yourself.” When you say “what God expects”, it heaps all sorts of stuff that comes interpreted through the guy in the pulpit, dictating cultural norms though the authority of “what God expects”. Whereas in reality, if you have a good heart that aspires to the ideal that “God” represents, Love will naturally flow through in your attitudes and actions to others, which then in turn “fulfills all the law and the prophets”, or in other terms, then entire meaning behind all sacred texts!

 

We don’t need ministers telling us how we are disobeying God by not tithing. We don’t need ministers telling us how we are disobeying God by not attending church, fasting, tithing, listening to rock music, swearing, not praying constantly, voting for a democrat, disagreeing with the politics of our government, etc, etc, etc. Love is the fulfilling of all the law and is a natural result of having a mind that embraces and holds sacred principles that honor Life.

 

just asking, you talk of human spirits as if you believe we have one?

I believe the word spirit describes how we perceive our emotional response to the universe. It is a way to understand our desire, and “sense” of our own existence. I do not see it as some “thing” in me that floats out of me when I die. It is the “I” of me. It is a conceptual word of language to describe many poetic, aesthetic ideals. I use it without any sense of a separate realm beyond being human, which if you follow my reasoning though, it shows that I place humanity pretty highly. We are in fact the image of God. He is our God. (meaning we create him, for those who might miss what I mean )

 

I think that may explain to me at least how historical Christianity also fails; it places humanity as very low indeed, as worthless sinners in need of salvation from hell. That is hardly inspiring to the human spirit.*

 

*Footnote thought: Off the top of my head, I wonder if some of the origins of the Jesus Christ myth was an attempt to reclaim life back to humanity from being enslaved by an old religion with man at the bottom having to appease an ancient volcano god with blood sacrifices and strict observances? Was some of the first impluses of Christianity early attempts to step towards humanism away from man being a total servant to the system? If so, it failed once it became itself fully institutionalized in within the next couple centuries.

[Amanda]

i can agree with that. i have just recently reread the gospels, trying to block all prior knowlegde that i have learned, i found some things that raise questions to the mainstream theology, but as a whole, my mind didn't change much.

 

Freeday, please let me suggest one thing to you. Please read some literature or internet sites on Buddhism, then reread some the Bible. I'm telling you... the NT will become so more clear! First read the beginner type of literature on Buddhism, as it has some difficult and unfamiliar concepts, IMO, but great ones. Also, I find Antlerman to have been immensely helpful in keeping my beliefs in the realm of reasonable, IMO, even so... I still believe in a God.

 

Freeday, do you believe in a literal hell? I think I asked you this already, however, it seems you gave me a vague answer. Also, I have seen other posts, and think you may believe in a literal hell. Then again, you seem like such a great guy, not forcing your beliefs, I wonder how that could be so? Can I get a yes or no answer, my friend? If you do, could you please tell me how you reconcile that with an all loving God?

[Antlerman]

Also, I find Antlerman to have been immensely helpful in keeping my beliefs in the realm of reasonable, IMO, even so... I still believe in a God.

Thanks. This might explain why the things I'm hearing you say are making such good, rock solid sense to me! Seriously though, I really appreciate that and enjoy your thoughts about all these things also.

 

To reiterate my motivations yet one more time, I don't try to dissuade people from believing in God, as I support the positive things that "God" represents. God works well as an object of devotion to those ideals. What does bother me though, not with you but others, is when "God" represents all those things I listed above that that minister tells us God expects of us, that in reality is only serving the institution and not the principles of life.

 

P.S. Freeday is really a closet liberal who just hasn't come "out" yet.

[Amanda]

Sure, Jesus is talking about a relationship to God, but it is many times through a cultural filter that is not ours, and hence why the message needs to be updated to the language of today’s culture. This is why it fails to speak to the world today.

Antlerman, not only that... but there has been some incredible spin put in there, especially by those who chose to use it to progress their own agendas... which were probably not in these initial teachings, but worked or spun into them. Even the KJV couldn't help but interpret it with the spin/cultural filters of their day.

 

Like I’ve mention a number of times elsewhere before (I don’t know if it was ever to you or not), the first sermon I preached when I was a student was really the only one that ever needs to be said. It was on the greatest commandment, “love God and love your neighbor as yourself.” When you say “what God expects”, it heaps all sorts of stuff that comes interpreted through the guy in the pulpit, dictating cultural norms though the authority of “what God expects”. Whereas in reality, if you have a good heart that aspires to the ideal that “God” represents, Love will naturally flow through in your attitudes and actions to others, which then in turn “fulfills all the law and the prophets”, or in other terms, then entire meaning behind all sacred texts!

 

Exactly!

 

We don’t need ministers telling us how we are disobeying God by not tithing. We don’t need ministers telling us how we are disobeying God by not attending church, fasting, tithing, listening to rock music, swearing, not praying constantly, voting for a democrat, disagreeing with the politics of our government, etc, etc, etc. Love is the fulfilling of all the law and is a natural result of having a mind that embraces and holds sacred principles that honor Life.

 

I'm with you here too brother!

 

*Footnote thought: Off the top of my head, I wonder if some of the origins of the Jesus Christ myth was an attempt to reclaim life back to humanity from being enslaved by an old religion with man at the bottom having to appease an ancient volcano god with blood sacrifices and strict observances? Was some of the first impluses of Christianity early attempts to step towards humanism away from man being a total servant to the system? If so, it failed once it became itself fully institutionalized in within the next couple centuries.

 

Antlerman, since we really only stopped being nomadic about 7-8,000 years ago, and I've heard that significant language only started 10,000 years ago, I think this emphasis of man being a poor ol' sinner and the speaking of blood offerings, was a step at cultivating our conscience. IMO, our conscience has taken a profound evolutional course in the last 6,000 years. This is not to say that mythology of other places did not contribute to all this some how. Also, it seems to me that the character, "Jesus", focused on stopping the concept of man being a poor ol' sinner. His sins have been washed away! God does not impute our trespasses against us! We are perfect in his sight! blah, blah, blah...

[NotBlinded]

[i like your point your making, the only problem that i do have is that children do live in the moment, not thinking about tomorrow or the past. this brings up a problem, because i think you need to be able to look past the moment to establish a future. this is why children do foolish things that endanger thier lives, why they blow a whole weeks paycheck at a clothing store, why they will take risks without evaluting the outcome. i don't think this is a good way to live your spiritual life. or your life in general.

Hi,

 

Yes, these things matter, but not on a spiritual level. It isn't a total disregard of everything. It's knowing what has to be done and yet not finding your identity, or who you are, in it. Have you seen that commercial where the people in the cars have a megaphone and are shouting why they have the car? They are shouting psychological reasons why they have the car. One woman says something like, "because the boys will like me!" and so on. It's hillarious! They are identifying themselves and who they are with their car. If you don't identify yourself with your worries, there will be no problem taking care of business. It's only when you dwell upon them and worry constantly and find that all your life you are thinking about something other than now and you miss out on life. The past and future don't exist. That is a deeper concept and one that I can't explain here really. If you are interested, you can read up on spirituality.

 

If you realize what needs to be done, and then do it and forget about it, you'll be okay. If you find yourself worring about what tomorrow brings, how can the answer come to you? What's the best way to remember a song title or a person's name? To stop thinking about it. Isn't that funny? The more you think, the blanker your mind will be. Are we ever living in tomorrow or yesterday when our minds are dwelling there? Is our heart beating in the past or future at that very moment? The world passes us by. How many forms of psychosis arrise in people that can't get over the past? They are living in the past. Many live in the future. Have you ever looked at someone and known that they weren't even there mentally? It makes you go, "Yoohoo...is anybody in there?" The present is all there is, so come back to it.

 

Many people think that one day they will be someone. That one day is nothing more than the present moment. That's all it can ever be...eternally. Time is an illusion. They live their whole life waiting to be someone, or to get money to get what they want so they can be someone.

 

Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow...he didn't say disregard what needs to be done.

[NotBlinded]

I thought to come as a child is to come with the mindset that you don't already know everything and be willing to see things from a fresh perspective.

 

Agreed. My take on that verse was always that we need to approach faith without preconceived notions or expectations...

 

 

i can agree with that. i have just recently reread the gospels, trying to block all prior knowlegde that i have learned, i found some things that raise questions to the mainstream theology, but as a whole, my mind didn't change much.

Hey...that's what I said too.

[Amanda]

Not Blinded By the Blight, I loved these key phrases in your post...

 

<It's only when you dwell upon them and worry constantly and find that all your life you are thinking about something other than now and you miss out on life. The past and future don't exist.>

 

<Are we ever living in tomorrow or yesterday when our minds are dwelling there? Is our heart beating in the past or future at that very moment? The world passes us by.>

 

<The present is all there is, so come back to it.>

 

<Many people think that one day they will be someone. That one day is nothing more than the present moment. That's all it can ever be...eternally. Time is an illusion.>

 

You always have such deep insights!

[freeday]

Sure, Jesus is talking about a relationship to God, but it is many times through a cultural filter that is not ours, and hence why the message needs to be updated to the language of today’s culture. This is why it fails to speak to the world today. Imagine Benjamin Franklin being brought back to life today and try to speak to us in his language of the culture he lived in. Some things might make some sense, kind of, but not near as clearly without an interpreter trying to help us to understand what he means, bringing our understandings of the world to his. How Christianity fails is they like in this analogy, there are translators of ‘ole Ben, but instead of living in 2006, they are using the language from the Civil War era.

 

Is it answers we are looking for, or relevance?

 

BTW, one important thing I’d like to ask you: You mention how Jesus addresses what our relationship with God should be and what he expects from us, but isn’t a relationship two ways? What should we expect from God? Do you think it is unreasonable to expect communication in a loving relationship? When I hear people say that God is sovereign and we are to obey him, then I don’t think they should then portray this as a relationship. That’s servitude. Should I expect a spouse to obey me then call that love? Not in our world.

 

This is one area reflecting cultural differences from the days of the desert tribes, where language will make or break you. Women are not to keep silent in our world, but they cleary were in Paul’s, despite any excuses we try to make for his words.

 

I understand what you are saying, i have to look up greek meanings of words all the time, use several different resource books, just to get the true meaning of what he was trying to convey at that time. but i do think his message can be conveyed in our time. that is why we rely on religous leaders, for thier insight and knowlege of the bible.

 

i don't really look at my relationship with God as one of a servant to a master. although Jesus did preach it, guess i should work on that some more. but i look at it as a relationship that he loves me and wants the best for me. yes i try to follow what God expects, but i don't find this a burden. what he expects and what i believe ethically and morrally right are about the same. well this is how i feel anyway.

 

you can definitely look at this relationship as servitude, but i look at it as a loving relationship. you look at the negative aspects, where i look at the positive aspects, i guess. i hope this came out right, i can't think of a way to express it right now. this is the best i could come up with. but it is obvious that we look at the relationship differently.

 

But in so doing they are attacking my mind with nonsense!!! It sounds like a bunch of rationalizations and excuses for something they think should be evident. If you are saying they shouldn’t try to “explain” God, then I agree with you. But you yourself did say above that it is a good thing to “find a religion that will explain him to you.”

 

The explanations that I heard, and continue to hear without anything much better being offered are seen as human rationalizations and excuses that rely on nothing better than flimsy logic arguments. My mind sees the fallacy of the arguments. I suppose for others, it “sounds good enough” for them to dismiss their questions, but for me I cannot overlook the fact that the “explanations” are poor answers and only tells me of man’s dishonesty with himself. This pretty much sums up my perspective of theology and apologetics.

 

Like I’ve mention a number of times elsewhere before (I don’t know if it was ever to you or not), the first sermon I preached when I was a student was really the only one that ever needs to be said. It was on the greatest commandment, “love God and love your neighbor as yourself.” When you say “what God expects”, it heaps all sorts of stuff that comes interpreted through the guy in the pulpit, dictating cultural norms though the authority of “what God expects”. Whereas in reality, if you have a good heart that aspires to the ideal that “God” represents, Love will naturally flow through in your attitudes and actions to others, which then in turn “fulfills all the law and the prophets”, or in other terms, then entire meaning behind all sacred texts!

 

We don’t need ministers telling us how we are disobeying God by not tithing. We don’t need ministers telling us how we are disobeying God by not attending church, fasting, tithing, listening to rock music, swearing, not praying constantly, voting for a democrat, disagreeing with the politics of our government, etc, etc, etc. Love is the fulfilling of all the law and is a natural result of having a mind that embraces and holds sacred principles that honor Life.

 

i think people can try to over explain God, but i don't think it is wrong for someone to explain him. if someone asks or inquires about God, we should be able to tell others what we believe or think. some people who believe in God, want to know what he expects. there is nothing wrong with this. you say "love" natuarally flowing will fullfill the law, does it matter if that love came from an athiests selfactualization, or from religous beliefs.

 

and you are absolutely right, we don't need a pastor telling us how we are disobeying God. i think we should read the bible and decide for ourselves! i think ministers should spend more time encouraging us with love and worship, not the negative stuff.

 

as far as spirits, i get what you are saying now. just wanted to clarify that.

[Ouroboros]

i think people can try to over explain God, but i don't think it is wrong for someone to explain him. if someone asks or inquires about God, we should be able to tell others what we believe or think. some people who believe in God, want to know what he expects. there is nothing wrong with this. you say "love" natuarally flowing will fullfill the law, does it matter if that love came from an athiests selfactualization, or from religous beliefs.

In essence, God is what you make him/her/it to be.

[freeday]

i can agree with that. i have just recently reread the gospels, trying to block all prior knowlegde that i have learned, i found some things that raise questions to the mainstream theology, but as a whole, my mind didn't change much.

 

Freeday, please let me suggest one thing to you. Please read some literature or internet sites on Buddhism, then reread some the Bible. I'm telling you... the NT will become so more clear! First read the beginner type of literature on Buddhism, as it has some difficult and unfamiliar concepts, IMO, but great ones. Also, I find Antlerman to have been immensely helpful in keeping my beliefs in the realm of reasonable, IMO, even so... I still believe in a God.

 

Freeday, do you believe in a literal hell? I think I asked you this already, however, it seems you gave me a vague answer. Also, I have seen other posts, and think you may believe in a literal hell. Then again, you seem like such a great guy, not forcing your beliefs, I wonder how that could be so? Can I get a yes or no answer, my friend? If you do, could you please tell me how you reconcile that with an all loving God?

 

hopefully when i finish moving and start my new job, i will have time to read up on buhhda, that is funny you recomend the beginner version. is this in refference to me being from mississippi.

 

as far as hell, i am not sure what i believe. this is something this site has changed my ideas on. in rereading the gospels, the only thing i am certian of, is that heaven is the place you want to go. i have several athiest friends that have been very kind to me and helped me a lot in the past. i find it hard to believe that they will fry in hell. so i am just not sure. and the bible can be confusing too, some passages state Jesus is the only way, others lend credit that there is some leeway in judgement for nonbelievers. a very hard question to answer.

 

 

i think people can try to over explain God, but i don't think it is wrong for someone to explain him. if someone asks or inquires about God, we should be able to tell others what we believe or think. some people who believe in God, want to know what he expects. there is nothing wrong with this. you say "love" natuarally flowing will fullfill the law, does it matter if that love came from an athiests selfactualization, or from religous beliefs.

In essence, God is what you make him/her/it to be.

 

i can agree with you on that one, as long as it is based reading from the bible and not the drug dealer on the street corner. i think it should come from a trust worthy source.

[NotBlinded]

 

i don't really look at my relationship with God as one of a servant to a master. although Jesus did preach it, guess i should work on that some more. but i look at it as a relationship that he loves me and wants the best for me. yes i try to follow what God expects, but i don't find this a burden. what he expects and what i believe ethically and morrally right are about the same. well this is how i feel anyway.

Is it more like the article below? I hope you don't get offended by me posting this, but the article itself is very offensive and may give you a little insight into how we (some of us) see this relationship.

[freeday]

[i like your point your making, the only problem that i do have is that children do live in the moment, not thinking about tomorrow or the past. this brings up a problem, because i think you need to be able to look past the moment to establish a future. this is why children do foolish things that endanger thier lives, why they blow a whole weeks paycheck at a clothing store, why they will take risks without evaluting the outcome. i don't think this is a good way to live your spiritual life. or your life in general.

Hi,

 

Yes, these things matter, but not on a spiritual level. It isn't a total disregard of everything. It's knowing what has to be done and yet not finding your identity, or who you are, in it. Have you seen that commercial where the people in the cars have a megaphone and are shouting why they have the car? They are shouting psychological reasons why they have the car. One woman says something like, "because the boys will like me!" and so on. It's hillarious! They are identifying themselves and who they are with their car. If you don't identify yourself with your worries, there will be no problem taking care of business. It's only when you dwell upon them and worry constantly and find that all your life you are thinking about something other than now and you miss out on life. The past and future don't exist. That is a deeper concept and one that I can't explain here really. If you are interested, you can read up on spirituality.

 

If you realize what needs to be done, and then do it and forget about it, you'll be okay. If you find yourself worring about what tomorrow brings, how can the answer come to you? What's the best way to remember a song title or a person's name? To stop thinking about it. Isn't that funny? The more you think, the blanker your mind will be. Are we ever living in tomorrow or yesterday when our minds are dwelling there? Is our heart beating in the past or future at that very moment? The world passes us by. How many forms of psychosis arrise in people that can't get over the past? They are living in the past. Many live in the future. Have you ever looked at someone and known that they weren't even there mentally? It makes you go, "Yoohoo...is anybody in there?" The present is all there is, so come back to it.

 

Many people think that one day they will be someone. That one day is nothing more than the present moment. That's all it can ever be...eternally. Time is an illusion. They live their whole life waiting to be someone, or to get money to get what they want so they can be someone.

 

Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow...he didn't say disregard what needs to be done.

 

i strongly agree with you on this one, very good point. but i will take it a step further as concerning christianity. this is how you can tell a true believer and one who isn't. a true believer has enough faith that they don't have to worry about thier salvation. a person who constantly worries about past mistakes and future mistakes, is one that is not secure in thier salvation and doesn't fully trust Jesus' message.

 

side note: not sure if it was fair of me to say true believer, i think it would be better put, a mature christian vs immature christian.

 

 

 

i don't really look at my relationship with God as one of a servant to a master. although Jesus did preach it, guess i should work on that some more. but i look at it as a relationship that he loves me and wants the best for me. yes i try to follow what God expects, but i don't find this a burden. what he expects and what i believe ethically and morrally right are about the same. well this is how i feel anyway.

Is it more like the article below? I hope you don't get offended by me posting this, but the article itself is very offensive and may give you a little insight into how we (some of us) see this relationship.

 

 

i have seen this article before, my wife brought it home from the church once. we laughed about it. what a load of crap. let me be the first to clear the air, my wife doesn't work, she is a stay at home wife. we don't have kids either. but i do not expect anything from her, she normally cooks, but i help out around the household quite a bit, i do laundry, clean, dishes. i feel in a relationship you should do your best to help out the other, and it will come back to you. the more i do for her, the more she does for me. and this philosiphy has worked out great for both of us.

[Antlerman]

some people who believe in God, want to know what he expects. there is nothing wrong with this.

The only thing wrong with this is supplying an answer to them. It's like that old oxymoronic statement, "the only truth is there is no truth". The only thing that anyone could say about what God would expect is to love. Anything else is telling someone your opinions which may or may not work for them, and worse still disillusion them when it doesn't work out like you see it does. People are all different and need to find the answers in themselves. This is all that God does for people, is serve as an object for them to find something in themselves. God is not a "one size fits all" sort of thing. He is 100% personal and subjective (at least when approached as a "personal" God like Christians try to teach him. He could also be a national object, but that's a seperate issue.)

 

 

you say "love" natuarally flowing will fullfill the law, does it matter if that love came from an athiests selfactualization, or from religous beliefs.

Wow, that threw me for a loop. "Self actualization"? No, in my case, as in all humans, it comes from with ourselves. As in what I said above, "God" serves as an object to for people to tap into their own "spirit" within, and becomes them moving beyond their own strengths, that can be tied up in the natural or mundane day to day world, by transporting them to a different place within themselves and tapping into a side of their own humanity that offers a new sense of strength and center. Imagination allows the spirit to soar to places of freedom and possiblity. This is what I call spirituality. (Religion on the other hand squashes the spirit by stuffing into a little cardboard box).

 

That said, there are many roads that lead to Chicago. Some take the road of Jesus, others Buddha, others Mohammad, others the arts, others philosophy. That sort of transcendent love I am talking about is something that is within every living human being, and does not typically come from "self actualization", but I suppose in a sense, it does become a part of that as we realize what we have in us. Jesus is can either be a tool for this exploration of your humanity, or your prison as you cower in fear trying to figure out "what he expects of us". The path of "God" is the exploration of yourself.

 

and you are absolutely right, we don't need a pastor telling us how we are disobeying God. i think we should read the bible and decide for ourselves! i think ministers should spend more time encouraging us with love and worship, not the negative stuff.

Damn right. Fire them all!

[Ouroboros]

In essence, God is what you make him/her/it to be.

 

i can agree with you on that one, as long as it is based reading from the bible and not the drug dealer on the street corner. i think it should come from a trust worthy source.

If Marx was correct in his statement that "religion is opium for the people", then the Bible writers were drug dealers.

 

And I heard some people argue that "manna" in the OT was a hallucinogenic mushroom.

 

So maybe your image of God is based on drug induced revelations...

[Amanda]

hopefully when i finish moving and start my new job, i will have time to read up on buhhda, that is funny you recomend the beginner version. is this in refference to me being from mississippi.

 

as far as hell, i am not sure what i believe. this is something this site has changed my ideas on. in rereading the gospels, the only thing i am certian of, is that heaven is the place you want to go. i have several athiest friends that have been very kind to me and helped me a lot in the past. i find it hard to believe that they will fry in hell. so i am just not sure. and the bible can be confusing too, some passages state Jesus is the only way, others lend credit that there is some leeway in judgement for nonbelievers. a very hard question to answer.

 

Freeday, are we from the southeast known to be confused easily by complicated ideas? I'm from Florida. Does that explain everything? ---

 

No, the reason I recommend the basic stuff, is because it does seem to have a different cultural presentation, including Asian names and such, and to me... it seems difficult to grasp. You may very well have a much easier time than I.

 

As far as hell... think about some of these metaphorical concepts...

 

bottomless pit- a place where one has no solid foundations to stand.

lake of fire- lava... we're standing on it

btw, isn't this where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

 

 

We are saved by grace. Where there is sin, grace abounds even more! There is no possible sin from which grace can not cover.

 

Believe in Jesus, means believe in these teachings... not necessarily that person.

Heaven and hell are states of mind. The kingdom of God is within you.

 

blah, blah, blah...

[freeday]

 

Wow, that threw me for a loop. "Self actualization"? No, in my case, as in all humans, it comes from with ourselves. As in what I said above, "God" serves as an object to for people to tap into their own "spirit" within, and becomes them moving beyond their own strengths, that can be tied up in the natural or mundane day to day world, by transporting them to a different place within themselves and tapping into a side of their own humanity that offers a new sense of strength and center. Imagination allows the spirit to soar to places of freedom and possiblity. This is what I call spirituality. (Religion on the other hand squashes the spirit by stuffing into a little cardboard box).

 

That said, there are many roads that lead to Chicago. Some take the road of Jesus, others Buddha, others Mohammad, others the arts, others philosophy. That sort of transcendent love I am talking about is something that is within every living human being, and does not typically come from "self actualization", but I suppose in a sense, it does become a part of that as we realize what we have in us. Jesus is can either be a tool for this exploration of your humanity, or your prison as you cower in fear trying to figure out "what he expects of us". The path of "God" is the exploration of yourself.

 

i think our imagination could lead us astray, if you went hiking in the mountains, wouldn't you want a guide or a map to help you. this is what religion does. it helps guide you in your walk of spirituality. regardless what religion. there are hundreds of different religions, there is one for everyone out there.

 

 

hopefully when i finish moving and start my new job, i will have time to read up on buhhda, that is funny you recomend the beginner version. is this in refference to me being from mississippi.

 

as far as hell, i am not sure what i believe. this is something this site has changed my ideas on. in rereading the gospels, the only thing i am certian of, is that heaven is the place you want to go. i have several athiest friends that have been very kind to me and helped me a lot in the past. i find it hard to believe that they will fry in hell. so i am just not sure. and the bible can be confusing too, some passages state Jesus is the only way, others lend credit that there is some leeway in judgement for nonbelievers. a very hard question to answer.

 

Freeday, are we from the southeast known to be confused easily by complicated ideas? I'm from Florida. Does that explain everything? ---

 

No, the reason I recommend the basic stuff, is because it does seem to have a different cultural presentation, including Asian names and such, and to me... it seems difficult to grasp. You may very well have a much easier time than I.

 

As far as hell... think about some of these metaphorical concepts...

 

bottomless pit- a place where one has no solid foundations to stand.

lake of fire- lava... we're standing on it

btw, isn't this where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

 

 

We are saved by grace. Where there is sin, grace abounds even more! There is no possible sin from which grace can not cover.

 

Believe in Jesus, means believe in these teachings... not necessarily that person.

Heaven and hell are states of mind. The kingdom of God is within you.

 

blah, blah, blah...

 

i was just messing with you, giving you a hard time. from what i understand, the teachings of buhhda are complicated though.

[Antlerman]

i think our imagination could lead us astray, if you went hiking in the mountains, wouldn't you want a guide or a map to help you.

I know this analogy. CS Lewis, "Mere Christianity", or was it Francis Schaefer, "The God who is There"?, hearing the voice of the mountaineer whom you know and trust calling out to you through the fog, "There's a ledge 3 feet below you, let go."? I think that was Francis Schaefer. In either case this anaology of his was meant to contrast "Blind Faith", where you would just let go without any "reason" in your belief, versus trusting someone you knew. I only mention it because Blind Faith you spoke about before and this anology is out of the camp of those who don't accept Blind Faith as real faith, which you have on multiple occasions embraced as the basis of your faith. Very liberal, I will add.

 

this is what religion does. it helps guide you in your walk of spirituality. regardless what religion. there are hundreds of different religions, there is one for everyone out there.

Welcome out of the closet!!! You are now officially a born-again liberal! Congratulations! Now where are you going to go to church? Seriously Freeday, you are now on the path of salvation of your mind and spirit! Welcome to freedom from dogma. Welcome to the real world.

[freeday]

i think our imagination could lead us astray, if you went hiking in the mountains, wouldn't you want a guide or a map to help you.

I know this analogy. CS Lewis, "Mere Christianity", or was it Francis Schaefer, "The God who is There"?, hearing the voice of the mountaineer whom you know and trust calling out to you through the fog, "There's a ledge 3 feet below you, let go."? I think that was Francis Schaefer. In either case this anaology of his was meant to contrast "Blind Faith", where you would just let go without any "reason" in your belief, versus trusting someone you knew. I only mention it because Blind Faith you spoke about before and this anology is out of the camp of those who don't accept Blind Faith as real faith, which you have on multiple occasions embraced as the basis of your faith. Very liberal, I will add.

 

this is what religion does. it helps guide you in your walk of spirituality. regardless what religion. there are hundreds of different religions, there is one for everyone out there.

Welcome out of the closet!!! You are now officially a born-again liberal! Congratulations! Now where are you going to go to church? Seriously Freeday, you are now on the path of salvation of your mind and spirit! Welcome to freedom from dogma. Welcome to the real world.

 

i must confess, i haven't been to church in a month or two. my opinions have changed a little. i do believe that there are different religions for the purpose of that thier are different opinions. who's to say which is the "truth." i guess where i have changed is that, although i strongly feel i am right, there are other people who feel the same about thier religion. and who am i to say that they are wrong and going to burn in hell for what they believe. the fact is, nobody knows who is right, because if they did, there would be one central religion in the world.

 

you take me wrong when i use the word blind faith. i feel a person should read up on thier religion and study, but in the end. there is no way possible to prove God's existence or that Jesus was truely God reincarnate on earth. so you have to have a blind (no evidence to prove) faith. i think there is a difference between blindly chosing a path and walking a path blindfolded. hell, i might have to change that as my quote, that was some pretty smart stuff coming from a fellow mississippian.