Christian wants to talk

[Guest sam90]

Hello ex-Christians - I am an ex-unbeliever!

 

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of biblical understanding.

 

The is a vibe that God in the Old Testament was "bad" and Jesus was "nice"... well they are exactly the same.

 

Ok do you all remember the story of Abraham and his son Issac? God told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Murder him. Cut his throat and burn him alive.

 

Bam.

 

Bad God.

 

Let's write an article on how bad God is. Feed the flames of pain, misery and confusion.

 

But as always, context is crucial. I'm going to paint you a picture of why I believe so many of you (not all) have rejected Christianity and why I embrace it, because there is clearly a difference in understanding here.

 

Now as the story of Issac unfolds, his son asks his dad, "We have the burning coals and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham answered, "God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering, Son." Then the two of them went on together.

 

Natural feelings here are how injust this whole situation is. Brutal and unfair.

 

Thankfully, the ink doesn't run out here, Abraham did not have to kill his son.

 

But God did.

 

Abraham was let off, but God didn't let himself off.

 

"God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering, Son."

 

The Old Testament has Jesus Christ written on almost every page.

 

What an ugly brutal act. All those feelings of anger you have at God are pointing the wrong way. He poured all his anger and wrath upon Himself. This is love. He took your place so that you can pass as an innocent lamb in his eyes.

 

The other remarkable thing is that Abraham was going to do it. He believed God is good and he had faith. Satan tries very hard to demonise God. God is love. He is not loving - he defines love. He is willing that no one should perish and that all would come to repentence and faith pleases God.

 

It's all about God's plan - his plan is the same as it was at the beggining - God will walk among his people and He will be their God. A pefect society where there is no pain envy or suffering, no people feeling insecure because they're too tall or short or fat or skinny, no villagers starved out by governments, no lonely grandmothers whose husbands died twenty years before they will, no talented people wasting their lives through a heroin addiction, no toddlers kidnapped by psychos, no crosses on the side of the road, no whole cities perishing in an earthquake? Ever? Only if the participants are perfect will this society exist.

 

One of the distortions of modern Christianity in some churches is the idea that "God has a plan and he wants you to be happy". Looking back I can say this is totally true... but there is a huge difference to what that means to a believer and an unbeliever.

 

I'm really tired so I'll be short: happiness is not a good word to be using. What makes us happy? Sin does for sure sometimes. God's desire is not for us to be happy but to be holy. And holiness = happiness:

 

John 15:7-15 WNT

(7) "If you continue in me and my sayings continue in you, ask what you will and it shall be done for you.

(8) By this is God glorified--by your bearing abundant fruit and thus being true disciples of mine.

(9) As the Father has loved me, I have also loved you: continue in my love.

(10) If you obey my commands, you will continue in my love, as I have obeyed my Father's commands and continue in His love.

(11) "These things I have spoken to you in order that I may have joy in you, and that your joy may become perfect.

(12) This is my commandment to you, to love one another as I have loved you.

(13) No one has greater love than this--a man laying down his life for his friends.

(14) You are my friends, if you do what I command you.

(15) No longer do I call you servants, because a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, because all that I have heard from the Father I have made known to you.

 

Again lack of biblical understanding and misguided teaching. The "God wants everyone to be happy and prosperous" teaching tastes good on the way down but leaves you feeling empty and confused when things don't work out.

 

Being a Christian to me is not something I could imagine giving up - why would I want to tie those chains back around my feet? Only Christ gives me freedom not to sin sin - and sin brings misery and death, in this life and in the next.

 

Look at the world - a world that lives as if God doesn't exist. I will give my life up for Jesus I promise to be obedient to him and to worship him. In worldy terms obedience and worship (I'll come back to worship) have bad connotations. But Jesus promises obedience brings "perfect joy". It's so true!

 

"Oh no it doesn't" some people say. "I was happier without all these rules." Again, back to the struggle of licence, liberty and legalism. Galatians is the best letter for this to be explained - it's how we are free to walk in the Spirit of God. If you sin the spirit grieves - you are in a relationship. These things are not spiritual milk and unbelievers will not understand or accept these - the Bible is clear that "the veil is taken away only through Christ". It's frustrating and it sounds like a cop out but think of it like this:

 

God could quite easily write his name in the sky and force everyone to believe. This isn't real force though - not as if he's messed with your mind or something. The problem with a lot of apologetics is that the aim is often to point to all the things which point to God, so that hopefully their audience will weigh up the odds and grudgingly believe. Or maybe just accept it. These people will not last 5 minutes as Christians - God promises suffering and discipline to his children. Look at the Christians in the Bible - Paul was shipwrecked at least 3 times and God could have prevented this. Why? Because the goal here is not temporal happiness but holiness. The Westerised Gospel often switches this around - happiness in this life and holiness in the next. The Bible teaches the opposite and this is why so many people get frustrated and confused with Chrsitianity. Like I said before, bad teaching!

 

Now God could force us all to belief but we live in a world where the God that is the Father of Jesus Christ is put to one side:

 

On Sept.11, 5,000 people died from a terrorist attack.

On Sept. 11, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 12, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 13, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 14, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

 

God hates injustice, and the Western world spends more on it's pets then it does on international aid. I think he is probably furious that collectively the world has enough money to eradicate poverty (fact: the money spent on WW2 could have done it) and enough food to eradicate starvation but it is not being done. It is not politcally correct to love someone as your self - we're told to strike a balance. Seems a bit lopsided to me.

 

Where is God in all this? You'll see...

 

 

Now as I mentioned before God could make us believe by performing some miracle today. But where is the love?

 

He has already accomplished everything through Jesus Christ. It is a finished work, and a matter of time till it's culmination. It all comes back to 'how do you become a Christian". Okay I'm going to be straight with you - it's not easy.

 

Jesus was born 2000 years ago. He is a histroical figure like Julius Caesar except he had a much bigger impact. He has had the biggest impact of any person. Every time you see the date 2005 it is a sign of how much influence he had. Yet people still claim he did not exist. Satan is extremely powerful - if he can make you believe that the beggining of the Bible is impossible (creation - how satan got power of the world) and the end (revelation - how he will lose it) then he is happy. But if he can convince people Jesus never existed despite the phenomonal evidence to the contary then his work is more then done. I have still yet to see any evidence that he didn't exist... wow.

 

Now Jesus existed before he took human form. John called Him "Logos" which means "the word". He said the word was God. So Jesus was God.

 

Linking this back to Issac - a Christian could be someone who feels the pain that Abraham must of felt. Someone who's heart is pricked by that injutsice - that he had to give up his son because he was told to. But that feeling needs to be turned around:

 

God gave up his son willingly - even more amazing when you think about it. Abraham was a man and God had total control and he can do as he pleases. He is accountable to no man, and he responds to our hatred and slander of Him with the life of his only begotten son.

 

The shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept". Do you know why he wept? It was because of the misery and human suffering that sin has caused. He came to take away the penalty of sin, and he did it for me, not simply so I could get a ticket out of hell but so that I could become an heir with him! God see's Jesus in me and calls me child. Jesus said his followers weren't servants but friends. This is the God of the Bible. It's far bigger and more awesome every day.

 

A Christian is someone who dies to their old shaky life and starts a new one in Christ:

 

The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth, which is, There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God. Jesus was truly human, and he gave himself to rescue all of us. 1 Timothy 2: 1,4,5

 

Peter said, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

 

 

Think about Abraham and Issac and the injustice and unfariness there. Turn that into guilt because you are guilty guilty guilty. Jesus poured out his life as nails were smashed through his bones because of you and your sins. God cannot stand sin and injustice because he is love and will tolerate them only for a short time. One day Jesus will be back, and not as a child: "His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance." (Revelation 1:14-16). Sounds a bit frightening to me, but what I know of Jesus from the Gospels, it is frightening but good. He is going to put right what has been so wrong for so long.

 

God will destroy heaven and earth and he will come full circle. Christians do not go to heaven... God comes back down to Earth! It's only possible through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

Do you want life? Jesus has put life and death before you and told you to choose life. "I am the life." He says.

 

Are you sorry for the pain and sadness you have caused God? Rejection of love the most painful thing I have experienced. Imagine how God feels when you trample over his sacrifice.

 

Are you gratefull for what he has done? Worship is showing how much he is worth to you.

 

It is all possible through grace - we are guilty before God and sin must be punished. He writes the cheque and offers it to you. To take it you must keep on believing, keep on having faith and keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit.

[MrSpooky]

Hey, I lost my faith simply because I studied whether or not a belief in the supernatural was justifiable. Religion was kind to me, but I discovered that it was little more than an attractive fantasy.

 

I woke up after that.

[Dio]

Hi Sam. That was a pretty nice post. I like what you said about poverty, etc. One minor thing - didn't Jesus weep when his buddy Lazarus died? Anyway, to be honest, there's not a lot new here that hasn't been said before, but you put it in a very clear and pleasant way. You're a good writer, imho. But to read this from the perspective that there is no God and the Bible is a sham, makes the whole thing a little 'beside the point'. Oh and also the assumption that we all left the faith because of bad churches and bad christians, is erroneous, based on polls conducted here (although it was a major factor for me). Anyway, welcome.

[Guest sam90]

Hey, I lost my faith simply because I studied whether or not a belief in the supernatural was justifiable.  Religion was kind to me, but I discovered that it was little more than an attractive fantasy.

 

I woke up after that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I hear your words but I don't know what you mean by justifiable.

 

Jesus was a human being - a historic figure. His disciples and many followers who met him believed in him but it took a while for them to understand who he really was. We have the benefits of the Bible and Roman history books to prove his existence. Do you not believe he existed?

 

In any case God can still be seen through miracles today - I've so many people healed through prayer. Definately supernatural.

 

Christianity is not religion - for example Islam they believe because the book tells them to and so they hope to find God. For me it's the other way round - I believe the the Bible because God found me, dwells in me and I know he's not a liar. I got there by faith though - faith in the unseen.

[Ouroboros]

Yet God is a mere construct of our own imagination, created by mankind, a virtual god and doesn’t exist more than a red dragon or the invisible pink unicorn.

 

Not to say there could be far more intelligent beings in the universe, and even beyond the universe, but a god that conforms to the Bible, where words are trying to explain the unexplainable, it’s impossible.

 

Give name to the un- nameable, and it’s not unnamed anymore.

 

Give proof for your faith, and your faith is gone. God has to be a belief and not a fact, or else God is not a god anymore.

 

The need for a god, developed during a long time in our brain, to help us survive the big-bad-world, and to hold together communities against enemies and help us strive for the same goal.

 

The unknown is a scary thought to our mind, and we need explanations, even if they’re not rational. But when we do find the reason, and cause, to phenomena around us, we should let go of the old concepts, and give way for the new. Holding back will not take us forward.

 

The “god-punishes-sinners” concept was created to control the people before the police force existed and the law system had been developed. It was created by man to scare people into obedience.

 

My denouncement from Christianity was not based on one reason alone. I could write a book full of reasons. But not one single reason I give you, would ever change your mind. It wasn’t bad churches only, it wasn’t Gods inactivity and unwillingness to help and interfere with important events, and it wasn’t the Bibles inaccuracies alone, it was all of the above and much more.

 

Change of mind, has to come from inside. I can’t make you see or understand what I’ve been through, and how I think, because you have to go to the other side of the mountain to see it. And you won’t, because you’ve made up your mind.

[quicksand]

I hear your words but I don't know what you mean by justifiable.

 

Jesus was a human being - a historic figure. His disciples and many followers who met him believed in him but it took a while for them to understand who he really was. We have the benefits of the Bible and Roman history books to prove his existence. Do you not believe he existed?

_________________

In any case God can still be seen through miracles today - I've so many people healed through prayer. Definately supernatural.

_________________

Christianity is not religion - for example Islam they believe because the book tells them to and so they hope to find God. For me it's the other way round - I believe the the Bible because God found me, dwells in me and I know he's not a liar. I got there by faith though - faith in the unseen.

Yeah, I am going to have to exception to this statement.

 

Jesus is said to be perfect. A perfect human being? That's an outright contradiction and impossible. Humans aren't perfect, therefore Jesus can only be human or be God and perfect according to Judeo-Christian tradition and doctrine.

 

Not both.

_________________

 

Yet, God is helpless when a Tsunami roles through. If prayer works so good, then why medical science?

_________________

 

Just keep telling yourself that young fish. Makes you feel real good doesn't it? Helps you to not face the irrationality of your religion.

 

Oh nice, too. Because Islam is false Christianity is true. LFMAO.

[DanInPA]

Ok I have been reading this site for a while.....

 

 

Really? The rest of your post seems to contradict that.

 

Dan

[Celsus]

Hello ex-Christians - I am an ex-unbeliever!

 

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of  biblical understanding.

 

You obviously have net read the majority of the Anti-testimonies and are making a broad statement that is prima facie, fallacious.

 

The is a vibe that God in the Old Testament was "bad" and Jesus was "nice"... well they are exactly the same.Indeed, if the God of the Bible was feasible, then Jesus=Yahweh. Thankfully, the God of the Bible is an impossibility.

 

Ok do you all remember the story of Abraham and his son Issac? God told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Murder him. Cut his throat and burn him alive.

 

Bam.

 

Bad God.

 

Let's write an article on how bad God is. Feed the flames of pain, misery and confusion.

 

Nice emotional tactic, too bad it doesn't work here. How about this, you substantiate that Yahweh/Jesus actually exist by at least logically dealing with the manifold problems of incoherence, then we can discuss if these mythical stories are about reality.

 

But as always, context is crucial. I'm going to paint you a picture of why I believe so many of you (not all) have rejected Christianity and why I embrace it, because there is clearly a difference in understanding here.

 

Now as the story of Issac unfolds, his son asks his dad, "We have the burning coals and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham answered, "God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering, Son." Then the two of them went on together.

 

Natural feelings here are how injust this whole situation is. Brutal and unfair.

 

Thankfully, the ink doesn't run out here, Abraham did not have to kill his son.

 

But God did.

 

Abraham was let off, but God didn't let himself off.

 

"God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering, Son."

 

The Old Testament has Jesus Christ written on almost every page.

 

Unfortunately, the Bible is highly contradictory in this regard, specifically human sacrifice is forbidden as is a person atoning for another's sins. Reading jesus into the Tanakh is highly problematic, for two reasons (1) The Christian Old Testament is a redacted version of the Tanakh to conform to Christian theology and (2) The interpolation of Jesus into supposed prophecies in the Tanakh are absurd, when read in context.

 

What an ugly brutal act. All those feelings of anger you have at God are pointing the wrong way. He poured all his anger and wrath upon Himself. This is love. He took your place so that you can pass as an innocent lamb in his eyes.

 

The other remarkable thing is that Abraham was going to do it. He believed God is good and he had faith. Satan tries very hard to demonise God. God is love. He is not loving - he defines love. He is willing that no one should perish and that all would come to repentence and faith pleases God.

 

It's all about God's plan - his plan is the same as it was at the beggining - God will walk among his people and He will be their God. A pefect society where there is no pain envy or suffering, no people feeling insecure because they're too tall or short or fat or skinny, no villagers starved out by governments, no lonely grandmothers whose husbands died twenty years before they will, no talented people wasting their lives through a heroin addiction, no toddlers kidnapped by psychos, no crosses on the side of the road, no whole cities perishing in an earthquake? Ever? Only if the participants are perfect will this society exist.

 

One of the distortions of modern Christianity in some churches is the idea that "God has a plan and he wants you to be happy". Looking back I can say this is totally true... but there is a huge difference to what that means to a believer and an unbeliever.

 

I'm really tired so I'll be short: happiness is not a good word to be using. What makes us happy? Sin does for sure sometimes. God's desire is not for us to be happy but to be holy. And holiness = happiness:

 

John 15:7-15 WNT

(7)  "If you continue in me and my sayings continue in you, ask what you will and it shall be done for you.

(8)  By this is God glorified--by your bearing abundant fruit and thus being true disciples of mine.

(9)  As the Father has loved me, I have also loved you: continue in my love.

(10)  If you obey my commands, you will continue in my love, as I have obeyed my Father's commands and continue in His love.

(11)  "These things I have spoken to you in order that I may have joy in you, and that your joy may become perfect.

(12)  This is my commandment to you, to love one another as I have loved you.

(13)  No one has greater love than this--a man laying down his life for his friends.

(14)  You are my friends, if you do what I command you.

(15)  No longer do I call you servants, because a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, because all that I have heard from the Father I have made known to you.

 

Again lack of biblical understanding and misguided teaching. The "God wants everyone to be happy and prosperous" teaching tastes good on the way down but leaves you feeling empty and confused when things don't work out.

 

Of course you are a messenger of the True ™ Understanding and Teaching!

 

Being a Christian to me is not something I could imagine giving up - why would I want to tie those chains back around my feet? Only Christ gives me freedom not to sin sin - and sin brings misery and death, in this life and in the next.

 

Sin is a theological construct and has no validity outside of your theological mythology. Using the word sin to unbelievers is like using the word purple to a color blind person, it has no frame of reference.

 

Look at the world - a world that lives as if God doesn't exist. I will give my life up for Jesus I promise to be obedient to him and to worship him. In worldy terms obedience and worship (I'll come back to worship) have bad connotations. But Jesus promises obedience brings "perfect joy". It's so true!

 

"Oh no it doesn't" some people say. "I was happier without all these rules." Again, back to the struggle of licence, liberty and legalism. Galatians is the best letter for this to be explained - it's how we are free to walk in the Spirit of God. If you sin the spirit grieves - you are in a relationship. These things are not spiritual milk and unbelievers will not understand or accept these - the Bible is clear that "the veil is taken away only through Christ". It's frustrating and it sounds like a cop out but think of it like this:

 

God could quite easily write his name in the sky and force everyone to believe. This isn't real force though - not as if he's messed with your mind or something. The problem with a lot of apologetics is that the aim is often to point to all the things which point to God, so that hopefully their audience will weigh up the odds and grudgingly believe. Or maybe just accept it. These people will not last 5 minutes as Christians - God promises suffering and discipline to his children. Look at the Christians in the Bible - Paul was shipwrecked at least 3 times and God could have prevented this. Why? Because the goal here is not temporal happiness but holiness. The Westerised Gospel often switches this around - happiness in this life and holiness in the next. The Bible teaches the opposite and this is why so many people get frustrated and confused with Chrsitianity. Like I said before, bad teaching!

 

Now God could force us all to belief but we live in a world where the God that is the Father of Jesus Christ is put to one side:

 

On Sept.11, 5,000 people died from a terrorist attack.

On Sept. 11, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 12, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 13, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 14, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

 

God hates injustice, and the Western world spends more on it's pets then it does on international aid. I think he is probably furious that collectively the world has enough money to eradicate poverty (fact: the money spent on WW2 could have done it) and enough food to eradicate starvation but it is not being done. It is not politcally correct to love someone as your self - we're told to strike a balance. Seems a bit lopsided to me.

 

Where is God in all this? You'll see...

Now as I mentioned before God could make us believe by performing some miracle today. But where is the love?

 

He has already accomplished everything through Jesus Christ. It is a finished work, and a matter of time till it's culmination. It all comes back to 'how do you become a Christian". Okay I'm going to be straight with you - it's not easy.

 

Jesus was born 2000 years ago. He is a histroical figure like Julius Caesar except he had a much bigger impact. He has had the biggest impact of any person. Every time you see the date 2005 it is a sign of how much influence he had. Yet people still claim he did not exist. Satan is extremely powerful - if he can make you believe that the beggining of the Bible is impossible (creation - how satan got power of the world) and the end (revelation - how he will lose it) then he is happy. But if he can convince people Jesus never existed despite the phenomonal evidence to the contary then his work is more then done. I have still yet to see any evidence that he didn't exist... wow.

 

Now Jesus existed before he took human form. John called Him "Logos" which means "the word". He said the word was God. So Jesus was God.

 

Linking this back to Issac - a Christian could be someone who feels the pain that Abraham must of felt. Someone who's heart is pricked by that injutsice - that he had to give up his son because he was told to. But that feeling needs to be turned around:

 

God gave up his son willingly - even more amazing when you think about it. Abraham was a man and God had total control and he can do as he pleases. He is accountable to no man, and he responds to our hatred and slander of Him with the life of his only begotten son.

 

The shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept". Do you know why he wept? It was because of the misery and human suffering that sin has caused. He came to take away the penalty of sin, and he did it for me, not simply so I could get a ticket out of hell but so that I could become an heir with him! God see's Jesus in me and calls me child. Jesus said his followers weren't servants but friends. This is the God of the Bible. It's far bigger and more awesome every day.

 

A Christian is someone who dies to their old shaky life and starts a new one in Christ:

 

The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth, which is, There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God. Jesus was truly human, and he gave himself to rescue all of us. 1 Timothy 2: 1,4,5

 

Peter said, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Think about Abraham and Issac and the injustice and unfariness there. Turn that into guilt because you are guilty guilty guilty. Jesus poured out his life as nails were smashed through his bones because of you and your sins. God cannot stand sin and injustice because he is love and will tolerate them only for a short time. One day Jesus will be back, and not as a child: "His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance." (Revelation 1:14-16). Sounds a bit frightening to me, but what I know of Jesus from the Gospels, it is frightening but good. He is going to put right what has been so wrong for so long.

 

God will destroy heaven and earth and he will come full circle. Christians do not go to heaven... God comes back down to Earth! It's only possible through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

Do you want life? Jesus has put life and death before you and told you to choose life. "I am the life." He says.

 

Are you sorry for the pain and sadness you have caused God? Rejection of love the most painful thing I have experienced. Imagine how God feels when you trample over his sacrifice.

 

Are you gratefull for what he has done? Worship is showing how much he is worth to you.

 

It is all possible through grace - we are guilty before God and sin must be punished. He writes the cheque and offers it to you. To take it you must keep on believing, keep on having faith and keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

Blah, blah, blah, same old Christian apologetic baloney. Substantiate your claims or don't waste our time!

[Guest sam90]

OK I'm going to try and scratch through the surface:

Give name to the un- nameable, and it’s not unnamed anymore

.

 

What's God's name? I don't see how this is relevant to Jesus being nailed to a tree after telling a crowd of people "Whoever does what I say will not taste death" then a few days later rising to life. This is what I'm talking about. Not semantics or philosophy.

 

 

Give proof for your faith, and your faith is gone. God has to be a belief and not a fact, or else God is not a god anymore.

 

If you ever get married and say "I do" then you are exercising faith. I don't see how proof invalidates faith in God - rather it strenghtens it. Jesus did signs and prophecised to his disciples so that "later you will believe that I am".

 

Furthermore, we cannot really "prove" anything. I cannot prove that the world didn't come into existence 5 minutes ago for example. We weigh up the facts and choose the best option. But our knowledge of the facts is forever changing, but our options don't. Again more semantics and philosophy... not meat to chew over...

 

 

 

The “god-punishes-sinners” concept was created to control the people before the police force existed and the law system had been developed. It was created by man to scare people into obedience.

 

Who created this system? Any proof this isn't just a theory you made up? Sorry if I'm sounding quite confrontational, but it's good to challenge what we believe. I read things from infidels.org, Calvinistic texts, Orthodox, things on hell to challenge myself and find out about God, rather then dig my own foxhole and refuse to budge. I've only been a Christian 18 months, but it was kindof a jumping in the deep end because I went to live in Kosovo for a year! Seriously though, what you say about seeing over mountains... if only you'd seen what I had...

 

One question: Why does a thief feel wronged when someone steals from him? Maybe it's because there is a line drawn between right and wrong, and it's not us who draws it. Is abortion wrong? Some say yes, some say no, so for there to be right and wrong there must be a line, otherwise it's just stuff. But the thief always feels wronged:

 

Romans 2:15 "...This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned."

 

The Bible gives a reason for it, I wonder what is yours?

 

[LloydDobler]

God hates injustice, and the Western world spends more on it's pets then it does on international aid. I think he is probably furious that collectively the world has enough money to eradicate poverty (fact: the money spent on WW2 could have done it) and enough food to eradicate starvation but it is not being done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God is perfect and omnipotent. We're imperfect and powerless. And he's mad at US for not solving the world's problems?

 

That's sick and twisted. You're the one who misunderstands the scripture dude. We left christianity because we understand exactly what the bible is and what it says. You filter it all through stained glass windows.

[MrSpooky]

I hear your words but I don't know what you mean by justifiable.

 

Jesus was a human being - a historic figure. His disciples and many followers who met him believed in him but it took a while for them to understand who he really was. We have the benefits of the Bible and Roman history books to prove his existence. Do you not believe he existed?

 

In any case God can still be seen through miracles today - I've so many people healed through prayer. Definately supernatural.

 

Christianity is not religion - for example Islam they believe because the book tells them to and so they hope to find God. For me it's the other way round - I believe the the Bible because God found me, dwells in me and I know he's not a liar. I got there by faith though - faith in the unseen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I do not believe in the historic Jesus since I do not know of any reliable historic texts that detail his life outside of the Bible.

 

However, my interests lie more in the philosophical side of things. I just don't see any evidence for the existence of a god, much less the God of Christianity, nor do I see any way to intelligibly solve the inherent contradictions of a god-concept.

[SmallStone]

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of  biblical understanding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bad apologetics of the ilk you've just posted don't help either Sam.

[Caretaker]

Furthermore, we cannot really "prove" anything.

 

That is it. I am not going to waste any more time on this poster. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

 

*hits ignore*

[quicksand]

Furthermore, we cannot really "prove" anything...

Right. Exactly Right.

 

You are just like me... a believer of invisible pink unicorns (IPUs). (We love them here on this site.) Since we can't 100% not prove their existance either.

 

And belief in IPU is not a religion, but a relationship.

 

_______________

 

I've only been a Christian 18 months

 

New Hot-for-Jesus alert all!

[Guest sam90]

BTW I am definetely not a Calvinist.

 

I believe Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture - it is in fact a form of religious fatalism.

 

I heard a Calvinist say it is not fatalism because we can choose the kind of life we live, even though our eternal fate has been predetermined. We cannot seek after what we see as good, we cannot recognize we are sinners, we cannot trust in God. I simply do not find this in scripture.

 

fatalism: The belief that "what will be will be," since all past, present, and future events have already been predetermined by God or another all-powerful force. In religion, this view may be called predestination; it holds that whether our souls go to Heaven or Hell is determined before we are born and is independent of our good deeds.

 

 

Oh and I'm definately not an Arminian either.

[Caretaker]

I reject faith.

 

Yes

 

I reject faith in favor of pure logic. You will NEVER get me to believe something. You must PROVE it to me. I will NEVER have faith in ANYTHING. I do NOT need faith. I am happy the way I am. Logic has done much more for me than faith has EVER DONE. There is NO PROOF that God, Jesus, Satan, Heaven, Hell, or ANY OTHER Christian construct exists! GET OVER IT! You will NEVER GET ME TO HAVE FAITH!

 

FAITH IS IGNORANT

FAITH IS IRRATIONAL

FAITH IS FOR THE WEAK MINDED

FAITH IS USELESS

FAITH IS FUTILE

[DeathWorship]

if you really plan to use the bible as proof for the existence of your imaginary friend, i am not willing to hear your babble, because that is no proof for the existence of god. "but the bible was written by man inspired by god!" OH THATS RIGHT!.. prove it.. if you cant give me undisputed proof that god is real [which you cant] im going to hand you Green Eggs and Ham by the great Doc and tell you to go pray to the Lorax, and maybe you will hear a Who and Hop on Pop with the Cat in the Hat...

[SmallStone]

New  Hot-for-Jesus alert all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SmallStone reminisces about his first time ...

 

Yeah, I remember my first time with Jesus. He came to me in the outhouse. I was just so full of his love that I had to share Jesus' love with all my friends. There was just so much of it! There was nothing like getting down on my knees and pleasing Jesus while our love was still fresh. After I grew up and realized that it is unbecoming for adults to believe in fairy tales, my affair with Jesus ceased. But now, when I've got a good glass of Campari and a little free time in the outhouse, I love to think of my first time with him.

[Guest sam90]

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of  biblical understanding.

*

 

 

Bad apologetics of the ilk you've just posted don't help either Sam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

OK... the newest testimony for instance http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/200...ary-but-eye.php

 

The person said that God was jealous but said we were not supposed to be.

 

I wrote this: God is not a hypocrite like you say. He says he is jealous and Christians are not supposed to envious.

 

Envy is when you desire something that is not yours.

 

Jealousy is when desire something that is rightfully yours.

 

An example... you can be envious over someone else's wife.

 

You can be jealous when your wife starts to flirt with and lead another guy on. Why? Because of the vows of marriage. She promised her love to you and only to you. God gave people life and he is jealous when they praise idols made of wood and stone for something that he gave. This is called context and it is essential for theology.

 

The shortest verse in the Bible is "Jesus wept". Does this mean God is a cry-baby? Do you know why he wept? Please the God you are portraying on this site is not the God of the Bible. He has many sides yes, but all need to be kept in balance like the legs of a table - mercy on one side, righteousness on another etc.

 

I have read so much on this site and I'm quite distressed by the lack of biblical understanding and prejudice. Surf around www.christianforums.com and see if you can tell the rotten fruit from the ripe.

 

 

 

And this was the response:

 

Ian,

 

The bible is rotten and it is what you christians worship. You worship a book! Talk about idiology!

freeman, 05.23.2005, 10:43am link

 

Jesus wept, because he had seen what religions had done to man. Jesus spoke out against all religions and politics and traditions, and the disciples called it blasphemy, Jesus's outspoken stance ultimately lead to his demise. Jesus was a rebel. Of course everyone even today refuses to believe this.

henry[@], 05.23.2005, 10:51am link

 

 

 

Uh.. "Christians worship a book?" Wrong. Bad teaching or lack of understanding.

 

"Jesus wept, because he had seen what religions had done to man." Okay Jesus goes to see Lazarus, everyone is crying around him. He loved Lazarus and he wept too. Obviously this was because of what religion had done to man... no this is not proper exegesis, Jesus wept because of the misery and pain sin has caused mankind. "The wages of sin are death." The word wages is used because we earn death as a reward of sin. "Rebels, succesful until the end", as CS Lewis said.

 

"The disciples called it blasphemy" Nope. He was accused of blasphamy by the Jewish leaders, not all the Jewish people. Whilst it is blasphemous to say you are equal with God... it's not if it's true. Jesus spoke in parables to hide his identity:

 

Matthew 13:13-15 GNB

(13) The reason I use parables in talking to them is that they look, but do not see, and they listen, but do not hear or understand.

(14) So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them: 'This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see,

(15) because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me, says God, and I would heal them.'

 

They would not have crucified him if they had known who he was! Is this unfair? No, because in Acts the people who crucified Jesus were preached to and 1000s realised what they had done and turned to him. And he healed them.

 

I have been a Christian 18 months, but I have been searching 8 years. And I mean proper searching - often unbelievers forget Christians don't understand what they're feeling, have been where they've been, they're somehow blinded to the truth or something. If only... you think I haven't thrown Jesus out the window a few douzen times? Ashamed... ashamed ashamed to say I have.

[Caretaker]

[SmallStone]

Two rounds of bad apologetics don't make one right round Sam.

[DeathWorship]

STOP BASHING MY HEAD IN WITH BIBLE "LOGIC"! PROVE THAT SANDAL WEARING HIPPIE EVEN EXISTED MAN!! COME ON!

[MrSpooky]

I'm teaching a Philosophy of Atheism course this fall. If you're in the UC Berkeley area, I hope you'll listen in a couple times.

[pitchu]

It's all about God's plan - his plan is the same as it was at the beggining - God will walk among his people and He will be their God. A pefect society where there is no pain envy or suffering, no people feeling insecure because they're too tall or short or fat or skinny, no villagers starved out by governments, no lonely grandmothers whose husbands died twenty years before they will, no talented people wasting their lives through a heroin addiction, no toddlers kidnapped by psychos, no crosses on the side of the road, no whole cities perishing in an earthquake? Ever? Only if the participants are perfect will this society exist. 

 

Yeah, Sam. When my kids were wide-eyed kindergartners they came up with plans like this, which made the adults giggle behind their hands and say, "My goodness, Sweetie, what a lovely idea!"

 

If yours is truly a grown-up god, he really ought to check out Plan Makers Anonymous, 'cause he's lousy at this undertaking.

[Ouroboros]

Furthermore, we cannot really "prove" anything.

 

That is it. I am not going to waste any more time on this poster. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

 

*hits ignore*

 

Second that.

 

Like I said; if you prove something it's not faith anymore, because faith is the belief in the un-proven. Yet this dude think proof strengthens his faith, when in essence of nomenclature they're their opposites.