Christian wants to talk

[quicksand]

Sam,

 

Nope. In Roman/Greek law, the testimony of one person "is not true", but you need two persons for verification. Jesus is aware of this:

You got to be kidding me...

 

Oh my. So Jesus will appease Greek and Roman law of the burden of proof, but not provide for today's more scientific standards like paternal testing?

 

We just take his word?

 

Okay, well then if you accept that you must accept this;

 

"DIONYSUS: I've arrived here in the land of Thebes, I, Dionysus, son of Zeus, born to him from Semele, Cadmus' daughter, delivered by a fiery midwife—Zeus' lightning flash. Yes, I've changed my form from god to human, appearing here at these streams of Dirce, the waters of Ismarus"

 

The Bacchae by Euripides 404 BC

 

Very good, you are now a believer in Dionysus.

(And he predates your Jesus by some 300+ years.)

 

Jesus says his witness is true, yet he admitted it was not sufficient testimony alone to claim their belief. Jesus does yield to the rabbis legalistic and religious demand for proof:

 

The Father and the Son are the two witnesses:

Is that one or two people? One or two people?

 

...but God's word speaks.

But can you believe what he tells you?

 

Pr.14:15 "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going."

 

1 Th.5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

[Ouroboros]

However, even in the Messianics there is not agreement.  There are branches and branches....  Messianics who do the OT laws but believe its optional, those who don't, those who think it isn't optional but must be obeyed.  Trinatarians, not trinitarians. Paul good, paul the antichrist.  Nazarene Jews, the list goes on and on and that is just within the Messianic community.  Oh Boy!!

 

Yup, agree!

 

And on that note:

 

[Warning sarcasm follows]

 

Every teaching we've heard from the bible has been wrong, but now we have finally met the person with the true teachings, and his not far away, he is on this site, right now!

 

Give up your hands for ...... sam90 !!! Yay!

 

Finally God sent a prophet to our midst.

 

Humanity has waited for 2000 years for Christ to return and show us the light again.

 

He is God, he is awesome, and he got all answers and he can bake pancakes!

.. ... ...

and we don't have all the answers because we had the bad luck of having only bad teachers! Yeah Man! I’m so happy!

 

Sam90 is the man!

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Well then, doesn’t this prove Gods unfairness even further when he had to send 300 bad teachers, preachers and authors my way, to lead me astray?

 

[sarcasm]

Damn you God, couldn’t you have sent sam90 to my life 30 years ago?

[/sarcasm]

[Guest Priapus]

I became a Jesus-loving, God-fearing, Holy-Spirit-calling Christian at 26, after finishing college and wondering what it was all for. I did this after several years studying philosophy and Eastern religion. When things didn't add up I attributed it not to a flaw in the Church, but to my own lack of understanding and prayed for the Holy Spirit to enlighten me. I confessed and asked God to forgive me. I sought to be more like Jesus in the way I lived and worked and in all aspects of my life. I attended a bare-bones, no messin' around fundamentalist church, the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in San Francisco. I was consistently impressed with the integrity of all the people I met. None were perfect and all were quick to be publicly accountable for their failures.

 

After 12 years of this I asked myself: What is the point? My life is no different. My relationships no better nor worse, my fortune unaffected. No blessings, double-portioned, pressed down, shaken together. No guidance or comfort I couldn't get from The World.

 

Just endless obedience for the sake of an afterlife for which I had not even the faintest suggestion was real. And to top it off, after years, 12 YEARS, son, not 18 months, I had never had a single direction, insight, or word of guidance on anything that I could attribute to God. After having my own children I realized, just as Christ said, "You who are wicked know how to give good gifts to your children..." Yes, I did. I also knew how to challenge them to grow without disheartening them. I know when they're at their limits and need my intervention. Christ promises "His Father" knows this too, but in my case, I never saw it and could only conclude it was myth, legend, and structures for social control.

 

You foam and rant with the zeal of a Factory Fresh Convert. Good for you. It's fun and satisfying to take on that role and bear the scorn and suffering which accompanies it. You can't prove the Bible with the Bible, though. It's a bust.

[Eponymic]

You're absolutely right. The fact is in every congregation and denomination I joined, or visited, or talked to or read about their teachings, all of it combined is what's wrong with Christianity and the understanding of the Bible.

 

...

 

And here you go again! We didn’t get the wrong or bad teaching; we got the right and correct teaching, from the most liberal viewpoint to the most extreme fundamentalistic viewpoint, you have them all here on this site. So if you combine all the different experiences, you will not miss the common denominators we represent that it’s not the teaching but the real Bible that is the problem. Of course, experiences with people contributed to the whole, but not one, but all of them, including ourselves.

 

That rocks the red rocks baby.

 

Great description of the misunderstaning concept.

 

You kick ass.

[Ouroboros]

That rocks the red rocks baby.

 

Great description of the misunderstaning concept.

 

You kick ass.

 

Thanks Friend!

 

I'm so on fire, that I had to turn on the A/C!

[Cerise]

Sam, how can those with the holy spirit within them have "bad teachings"?

 

And how can a perfectly written bible lead to "misunderstandings"?

 

And how can a God-sanctioned institution become "bad churches"?

 

If one is flawed, the other must also be flawed.

[Celsus]

Alright Bruce my response was to this:

This guy is content with and he see's no need for another world etc

 

Maybe that is because he is content. That was my point, not the one you think I made.

 

"We have nothing but we have everthing."

 

As for that lip service comment, name call it if you will but it is true.

 

And also, 3 years of Bible College - which one, because there are many where the lecturers are atheists and therefore do not believe the Bible and teach as such. PM is you want I am curious because it's quite important if you want to chalk it up.

 

 

Sam,

 

An undergraduate degree from Wayland Baptist Universtity and 2 of 3 years completed in upper graduate work in SW Baptist Theological Seminary and then switched back to Wayland for an MBA. Now, you may say these are not True ™ Christian Universities, but I will simply respond with the "No True Scotsman" rebuttal. From your statement, you exhibit a typical tactic of denigrating anyone who does/did not believe as you do as not a True ™ Christian or not a True ™ Christian organization. First, substantiate the extraordinary claims made by the Bible, Christians and answer some of the examples of problems with the Christian belief system that have been raised. Failing to do this, I can only presume that you are just another evangelist attempting to present a softer side to a barbaric, illogical religion,

 

Bruce

[Guest Slayer-2004]

Yeah, but you will die.  Though not too soon I hope! Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness.

 

There is something known as honor . Apperantly apologists dont have much .

[Guest bdp]

Yeah, but you will die.    Though not too soon I hope!  Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness. Motivation comes from many places, you are content with your life at the moment... but what if your friends had holes blown in them , members your family slaughtered and your school was destroyed by a tank? I'm not being morbid these are people I know. Jesus has blessed them abundantly because they realised they were needy and believed  they were loved.

 

That's the strange thing with Apologetics - you can't tell people they aren't happy when they are! But when death is closing in all around... all those things which seemed important and to make sense dissapear like the mist. Death will close around one day man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I will die a helluva lot sooner than you will, being 42 and diabetic - death is always right by my side and the thundering weight of my own mortality slapped me hard enough in the face to make me drop all pretenses and postures and hold to what is really important, and to be cliche about it what matters is living before I die. "all those things which seemed important and to make sense dissapear like the mist." Damn right they did, which is why I'm an EX Christian.

 

bdp

[Guest bdp]

And also, 3 years of Bible College - which one, because there are many where the lecturers are atheists and therefore do not believe the Bible and teach as such. PM is you want I am curious because it's quite important if you want to chalk it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No need to PM, it was a Church of Christ institution, less than 200 students, very chummy and the profs were all believers. Anyway 'which one' is just another way of saying 'it was the wrong one,' I myself never claimed any denomination.

 

bdp

[MrSpooky]

I love you guys. When someone comes along making blanket statements and unfounded assumptions, you pull out the big guns of pure empirical fact.

[Lizard]

No need to PM, it was a Church of Christ institution, less than 200 students, very chummy and the profs were all believers.  Anyway 'which one' is just another way of saying 'it was the wrong one,' I myself never claimed any denomination.

 

bdp

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was definately the WRONG one, bdp! Shoulda gone to the baptist one..they have ALL the answers..

 

Sorry..I just couldn't resist.

 

Of course, had you gone to the baptist one, you would still be "saved" because, Once Saved, Always Saved"..unless of course, "You weren't really saved to begin with"

 

Ok, just rambling on. I've been trying to post for 2 days, but things keep coming up.

 

Most of what I might add has been said. However, since my antitestimony is not here, its two boards ago, I will add a few things.

 

It was not a bad church. I did not attend a church regularly, I like Sunday morning and always have. It was basic theology that clashed with basic science, made me go "huh?"

 

When I began hearing the inane ramblings that the earth was 6000 years old..and if I didn't believe that, I was not really a xtian..I realized I was getting life Truth from people who had their heads up their asses.

 

There is also the schisms and divisions among them all. The preterist group is one that finally pushed me over the edge. They proudly proclaimed all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70, including the return of jesus. Ok..then the 1000 year reign must have ended around 1070..and satan should be burning in the lake of fire by now, and all evil should have been eradicated. Unless god is starting over? Or is it the "day is like a thousand years, a thousand years is like a day" thing?

 

That last was the emotional reasoning that I left. The first is the logical reasoning, which actually came after.

 

Then there is the fact that very few actually follow what jesus said. I know of only a couple. I'm speaking of the great commandent he issued. The love your god and neighbor thing. And your enemy. Most of us can love our friends and family. The ones (actually two that I know) who can really love their enemies..those are the ones I look up to. Unfortunately, the rest of the brotherhood and sisterhood does not even consider them family members..which says even more.

 

I don't know if there is a god. I don't know if jesus was a historical figure or not. Its never been shown.

 

I have a few other issues to pursue here, unfortunately, I'm out of time. One of them is the calendar claim..

[♦ ficino ♦]

  I am in no way impressed by anything Jesus supposedly did.  I don't feel his morality was anything to write home about, especially since he lied a bunch of times, tried to confuse people, and claimed he came to divide families and bring fighting...

 

Secondly...the abraham and Isaac story IS immoral if you are taking it as literal history and not a metaphor.  Do you know WHY?  it's because biblegod EVEN ASKED in the first place.  He would put abraham through that mental anguish, just to "test him" when god if he knows everything knew the test was unnecessary.  to create fear in a son towards his father.  these are things people don't just "get over" as they apparently did in the story.

 

the old testament god is immoral, the new testament god is immoral.  How much more moral is killing your own son (as you say biblegod did) and for something so stupid?  if he's all powerful he can just be the bigger guy and forgive people...there is no need to shed blood. 

 

You follow a superstitious blood and death cult.  That's it. This whole "bad church" idea of yours is just retarded, most of us felt we went to fantastic churches filled with fantastic people UNTIL we decided to leave.  we didn't leave BECAUSE of the people in these churches, it was only after we left that people showed their true natures.

 

As for we just lack understanding...yep heard it before.  I prefer a morality and doctrine that I dont' have to do mental gymnastics to solve the immoral problems and logic problems.

 

Also...where is your proof?  We already know we dont' care for your religion, but unless you are able to prove that your religion is true and all other religions are false...I don't see why you are anymore than just another fundamentalist talking head living under the delusion you have something new and profound to say.

 

Zoe Grace, you always make so much sense! If only more fundies would just look at their belief system in the face the way you look at it here (and in your other posts)!

 

About the Sacrifice of Isaac - I agree. From the beginning, Abraham should have screened out the mental impulse "God is telling me to kill my child." And what if someone does take it as a metaphor? What brutal thing could it be a metaphor of?

[chefranden]

No need to PM, it was a Church of Christ institution, less than 200 students, very chummy and the profs were all believers.  Anyway 'which one' is just another way of saying 'it was the wrong one,' I myself never claimed any denomination.

 

bdp

 

bdp,

 

Which one? I went to Great Lakes Bible College now known as Great lakes Christian College in Lansing MI.

 

chef

[spamandham]

Yeah, but you will die.   

 

How true. But in the mean time I live my life for life. You're living your life for death.

 

Your greatest need is for forgiveness.

 

And your greatest need is for cheese. You can not pass through the portal to the underworld without an adequate supply of cheese to fend off the rats!

 

If your god wants to forgive, it's within his power to do so, not mine. If his forgiveness is contingent on me blindly believing a bunch of fairy tales, then it isn't true forgiveness, it's really just payment for services rendered.

[Saviourmachine]

I usually take a lot more time on this kind of thing, but I gotta get up early so goodnight. Post more of these contradicitons if you want to. Maybe not I can take them all, but God's word speaks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd recommend you to do something more useful with your life. It can happen you'll die, remember. If you like contradictions, you can start to discuss with a muslim. You'll soon find out which tactics they use, and can tell us afterwards in which they differ from yours.

 

You can help human kind by e.g. digging in the ground for fossils and studying DNA to ultimately find out how we can prevent a lot of cruel diseases, or studying zoology and alikes to find out how ethics developed to build our societies, or studying linguistics, natural language processing etc. to be able to communicate more adequate and enable communication with disabled people, or studying artificial life or artificial intelligence to enable machines to help us in the future to solve environmental, scientific and a lot of other problems. There is lot to learn from history, realize that it's not only 2000-6000 years. Realize your position in this extended universe, with this enormous amount of living beings, among so many planets and suns, in this overwhelming intellectual paradise, with the sun rising and setting every day, with your blood pumping through your veins, and enjoy! Realize, how happy you are, because the evil days can quickly come. Drink a beer from me.

 

[Guest bdp]

bdp,

 

Which one? I went to Great Lakes Bible College now known as Great lakes Christian College in Lansing MI.

 

chef

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes! Twenty years ago I was finishing up my freshman year there! I still live in Lansing, sometimes on a Saturday I'll go to the BK on Saginaw, pick up a combo, and drive over to 'Jail BC' (as we used to call it) and park with a view of the pond, just thinking...

 

Actually, having been indoctrinated into CoC started the questions in my mind almost immediately - there are no modern-day miracles because 'the perfect has come,' i.e. the Bible, and there's no need for miracles anymore. Well not only is that a misuse of the text itself, but what about all those other churches who say they still dohave miracles? Having to make the Bible say what it doesn't say and explain why it doesn't say what it clearly does - that's when I knew I had to give it up.

 

Maybe if I get really brave I'll get out one of my old yearbooks and post a couple of 'geek' shots of me, back in the day...

 

bdp

[Kryten]

Just a comment on Abrahams "sacrifice"...

How does one know when GOD is talking to you??? How would a Christian know if the message is from God?? Yes, I'm asking this of all you Christians who are brave enough to read this far.

When I was a Christian here is what I would have said: If the messenger tells you to do something that is evil, or a sin, or wrong, then you know it cannot be from a good God!! So why the hell did Abraham think that the demon who demanded him to murder another human was God?? If you Christians were to see an angel or something you thought was God, and he told you to douse your daughter with gas and light her on fire for the lord, would you be stupid and gullible enough to actually consider it????? If God himself told me to murder an innocent person, I would tell him to His face to go fornicate himself.

 

I invite Christians to explain what you would do in that situation, or why it was okay in the case of Abraham The Gullible.

[Kryten]

Maybe this is material for a new thread, but if that really happened, I would HAVE to assume the test was one of good verses evil, and Abraham FAILED the test. The correct response should have been to refuse on the grounds it was wrong.

[mrtruth]

Just a comment on Abrahams "sacrifice"... 

How does one know when GOD is talking to you???  How would a Christian know if the message is from God??  Yes, I'm asking this of all you Christians who are brave enough to read this far.

When I was a Christian here is what I would have said: If the messenger tells you to do something that is evil, or a sin, or wrong, then you know it cannot be from a good God!!  So why the hell did Abraham think that the demon who demanded him to murder another human was God??  If you Christians were to see an angel or something you thought was God, and he told you to douse your daughter with gas and light her on fire for the lord, would you be stupid and gullible enough to actually consider it?????  If God himself told me to murder an innocent person, I would tell him to His face to go fornicate himself.

 

I invite Christians to explain what you would do in that situation, or why it was okay in the case of Abraham The Gullible.

 

That is an excellent illustration, and point. I actually debated that very question with a local Christian talk radio announcer a couple of weeks ago.

 

His response was that Abraham was an 'advanced believer' as he'd known God for a long time, and communicated with him daily. That is how Abraham 'knew' that God was the one telling him to kill Issac.

 

That's all fine and dandy...but not what the Bible clearly says.

 

Plus, people today (at least I haven't observed any) don't communicate 'two-way' with God, so your question is valid. If 'God' appeared to Billy Graham, and told him to murder his wife for the Lord, would he? He's 'known the Lord' for a long time, and one could guess he communicates with Him daily.

 

Would Billy Graham murder his wife for God?

 

doubtful...

[leftofpunk]

I only read half of the first post and all I gotta say is....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>fart<

[Skankboy]

Yeah, but you will die.  Though not too soon I hope! Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness. Motivation comes from many places, you are content with your life at the moment... but what if your friends had holes blown in them , members your family slaughtered and your school was destroyed by a tank? I'm not being morbid these are people I know. Jesus has blessed them abundantly because they realised they were needy and believed they were loved.

 

Ahhh, I see now. You fear the ego-death.

 

It seems, giving your examples, that you think a belief based on fear is ok (does Pascal's wager mean anything to you?). Personally, I do not. Will it be sad when they die? Certainly, I'll mourn the loss of those individuals. Why would I not?

 

The bigger question is, do you mourn those that die? And if so, why?

 

As for forgiveness, what from? I don't believe either of the creation stories in genesis, thus no fall, no savior. Indeed, in my speaking w/the Chef (you may want to check the passage he references earlier), I've realized that even w/in christianity, the concept of the sons paying for the sins of the father isn't really supported.

 

I can appreciate your position. From your point of view we must appear "lost" in some manner. The irony is the rest of the non-christian world (and indeed segments of the christian world as well) would consider you "lost". Who's right? Who knows...?

 

Either way, I hope you can find peace in this world, and not place all of your expectations on a state that may or may not exist after you die. For me, when I realized that this was all their is, I was finally able to appreciate this world for the treasure that it is. Against eternity, everything is reduced to nothing. So when we are aware that existence is finite, only then can we truly appreciate that which is right in front of us...

 

IMOHO,

[chefranden]

Yes!  Twenty years ago I was finishing up my freshman year there!  I still live in Lansing, sometimes on a Saturday I'll go to the BK on Saginaw, pick up a combo, and drive over to 'Jail BC' (as we used to call it) and park with a view of the pond, just thinking...

 

Actually, having been indoctrinated into CoC started the questions in my mind almost immediately - there are no modern-day miracles because 'the perfect has come,' i.e. the Bible, and there's no need for miracles anymore.  Well not only is that a misuse of the text itself, but what about all those other churches who say they still dohave miracles?  Having to make the Bible say what it doesn't say and explain why it doesn't say what it clearly does - that's when I knew I had to give it up. 

 

Maybe if I get really brave I'll get out one of my old yearbooks and post a couple of 'geek' shots of me, back in the day...

 

bdp

 

Well Heavens to Ron Fischer, Walt Zorn, and George Brown! I think I graduated in 86! Don't rightly remember. But it seems we were there at the same time about.

[Ouroboros]

I love you guys.  When someone comes along making blanket statements and unfounded assumptions, you pull out the big guns of pure empirical fact.

 

Just because we love the hunt!

And fresh lamb meat!

[Guest bdp]

Well Heavens to Ron Fischer, Walt Zorn, and George Brown!  I think I graduated in 86!  Don't rightly remember. But it seems we were there at the same time about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Man oh man! I can still do a wicked Ron Fischer impression (and an even wickeder George Stehle). Funny how much in awe I was of some of those guys back then, and in some cases, like George, I wonder how someone with what seems to be such a keen mind can still adhere to any level of Christianity.

 

If I did get my two yearbooks out and tried to guess who you might be, would your username on this board give me any clues?

 

bdp