Christian wants to talk

[chefranden]

MAN, you made me laugh while I was taking a zip of water, and now my keyboard is sprayed with water ... IT's YOUR fault!

 

 

Oh my, never read a post from Fwee if you have liquid near your lips. Put the wet stuff down, and then read. It will save you millions in keyboards. This should be pinned somewhere for the sake of newbies to the board.

[Guest sam90]

Well thanks for posting.... there's so much to say really um... but first my avatar was assigned to me and I have categorically denied I am a Calvinist.

 

Ok some things: I am no zealot. I am not emotional or passionate when I post. I have been working the last 9 hours in a factory, yesterday was my chill out day and I was sipping my Hoegaarden and posting here, totally relaxed and not even foaming at the mouth a little... oops I can't prove that therefore don't believe it!

 

Who agrees I have been patronising?

 

Condescending

To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.

 

Once I read that above comment, this thing just got ridiculous... but on I pedal!

 

"We left christianity because we understand exactly what the bible is and what it says."

"That is it. I am not going to waste any more time on this poster. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read."

"You are just like me... a believer of invisible pink unicorns"

"New Hot-for-Jesus alert all!"

"if you really plan to use the bible as proof for the existence of your imaginary friend"

"Yeah, I remember my first time with Jesus. He came to me in the outhouse. "

"If yours is truly a grown-up god, he really ought to check out Plan Makers Anonymous, 'cause he's lousy at this undertaking."

"You look like you are suffering from a severe case of EDS"

 

Just a few... I promise I have not tried to be patronising. There are people reading this who know lot's about the Bible and people who don't. Can't please all.

 

You want me to dance the way you want?

 

Someone mentioned that I was "walking in the flesh" when I mentioned I lead Bible study. Hands up, that is so true. I just felt I needed to communicate that I am not some ignorant fool. Some of you openly label me as such because of my beliefs - I do not do the same to you ok!

 

I will not fall into the trap layed before me: that somehow I am better then you by claiming I understand scripture "better" or have more "authority". Read and make your decision... someone posted that I lack Biblical understanding then went to show he had a drought himself! (No satan in OT? Read Job.) I guess I'm going to have to step up a gear later on, but I am tired and covered in plastic dust and need a cup of tea!

 

Let's go back to this God is envious/jealous business. Let's do this intelectually shall we as someone accused me of being too "emotional":

 

Deuteronomy 4:24 KJV+

(24) For3588 the LORD3068 thy God430 is a consuming398 fire,784 even a jealous7067 God.410

 

That's the hardcore Bible version.

 

This is not the same jealousy that we used in English. There is the form that we know, a jealous based on ill-will that is found in the Bible. This is not in dispute. It is whether God too shares this jealousy. Time to check the Greek/Hebrew:

 

Strong's Drictionary says:

 

H7067

קנּא

qannâ'

kan-naw'

From H7065; jealous: - jealous.

 

This Hebrew word is used SOLELY of God. God's jealousy is a desire... towards a good end. C. S. Lewis put it: We serve a jealous God - and indeed jealousy is a sign of love. In any love relationship, if you have true love, your lover accepts you and rejects all others. It is the same with God. You must love God - or the world. To try to love "both" is hypocrisy.

 

Ezekiel 16:8 MKJV

(8) And I passed by you and looked on you, and, behold, your time was the time of love. And I spread my skirt over you and covered your nakedness. And I swore to you and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord Jehovah. And you became Mine.

 

1 Kings 19:10 MKJV

(10) And he said, I have been very zealous for Jehovah the God of Hosts. For the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, thrown down Your altars, and have slain Your prophets with the sword. And I, I alone, am left. And they seek to take my life away.

 

2 Corinthians 11:12 MKJV

(12) But what I do, that I will do, so that I may cut off occasion from those who desire occasion; so that in the thing in which they boast, they may be found even as we.

 

God is never jealous OF. He is jealous FOR. The Bblical definition of jealousy in this case is a passion for a close relationship. In the OT God clearly has a protective commitment to Israel. Where this relationship of mutual commitment is threatened, either by Israel's unfaithfulness or by foreign oppression, the inevitable expression is vengeance and wrath... directed though, to restoring that relationship:

 

Hosea 11:8-9 MKJV

(8) How shall I give you up, Ephraim? How shall I deliver you, Israel? How shall I make you like Admah? How shall I set you as Zeboim? My heart is turned within Me; My compassions are kindled together.

(9) I will not carry out the heat of My anger; I will not return to destroy Ephraim. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst; and I will not enter into the city.

 

Is God fair in this special treatment?

 

No. That is probably your conclusion. Well he's offered it to you:

 

(John 1:11-12 CEV) He came into his own world, but his own nation did not welcome him.

Yet some people accepted him and put their faith in him. So he gave them the right to be the children of God.

 

God is jealous because he has a passionate, even zealous love for you. It is likened to a Father and daughter, (God) husband and wife (Jesus).

 

The Old Covenant pales to the New Covenenant - this is what is put before you. Jesus puts life or death before you and tells you to choose life.

 

2 Corinthians 3:7-14 WNT

(7) If, however, the service that proclaims death--its code being engraved in writing upon stones--came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily on the face of Moses because of the brightness of his face--a vanishing brightness;

(8) will not the service of the Spirit be far more glorious?

(9) For if the service which pronounces doom had glory, far more glorious still is the service which tells of righteousness.

(10) For, in fact, that which was once resplendent in glory has no glory at all in this respect, that it pales before the glory which surpasses it.

(11) For if that which was to be abolished came with glory, much more is that which is permanent arrayed in glory.

(12) Therefore, cherishing a hope like this, we speak without reserve, and we do not imitate Moses,

(13) who used to throw a veil over his face to hide from the gaze of the children of Israel the passing away of what was but transitory.

(14) Nay, their minds were made dull; for to this very day during the reading of the book of the ancient Covenant, the same veil remains unlifted, because it is only in Christ that it is to be abolished.

 

Read that if none else.

 

Is this kind of repsonse more akin to your liking? Doubt it but I can go up another gear if needed, I can dance!

 

There are some posts here which are productive. Most are not I have to say. You view mine that way no doubt, but I stand by what I said: Biblical mis-understanding. Bad teaching. I'm not saying it's your fault, but we all have a model of God in our heads. Is yours the Biblical God?

 

Quickly look at Noah - was God unfair?

 

1 Peter 3:18-20 MKJV

(18) For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;

(19) in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

(20) to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);

 

Were you aware this was what Jesus was doing during the time he was in the tomb?

 

Lot's more to say... about holiness=happiness - right see there was a full stop after happiness.

 

Think of Holiness as the hub of a wheel. This is what God pre-destined: "to be conformed to the image of his son" (not Salvation - see I am not a Calvinist!). Not "to be happy. (full stop)"

 

Happiness stems from holiness and joy is a part of it, but happiness (full stop) is a dead end and not God's goal for us. Have I made myself clearer... look forward to reading your fab responses.

[Skankboy]

Happiness stems from holiness and joy is a part of it, but happiness (full stop) is a dead end and not God's goal for us.

 

By "holiness" I assume you mean closer to god. But I don't believe in the supernatural, let alone a supreme being. Don't get me wrong, happiness in and of itself is a vapid empty existance (much like I here heaven described). But I must admit to being "content" with my life and certainly "joyful" at times. In short, outside of the redemption from an eternity of pain, I see no motivation for setting aside my worldview in favor of one that incorporates a biblical one.

 

When I look at the wonders of this world, I see no need for another...

 

If I'm content, why would I want to be "holy"?

[Vigile]

:This Hebrew word is used SOLELY of God. God's jealousy is a desire... towards a good end. C. S. Lewis put it:  We serve a jealous God - and indeed jealousy is a sign of love.  In any love relationship, if you have true love, your lover accepts you and rejects all others.  It is the same with God.  You must love God - or the world.  To try to love "both" is hypocrisy.

 

Ezekiel 16:8 MKJV

(8)  And I passed by you and looked on you, and, behold, your time was the time of love. And I spread my skirt over you and covered your nakedness. And I swore to you and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord Jehovah. And you became Mine.

 

1 Kings 19:10 MKJV

(10)  And he said, I have been very zealous for Jehovah the God of Hosts. For the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, thrown down Your altars, and have slain Your prophets with the sword. And I, I alone, am left. And they seek to take my life away.

 

2 Corinthians 11:12 MKJV

(12)  But what I do, that I will do, so that I may cut off occasion from those who desire occasion; so that in the thing in which they boast, they may be found even as we.

 

Etc..., etc...

 

 

 

Dude, we are NOT Christians (most of us anyway). Why do you assume that the bible has some sort of authority to argue an issue from with us? It may work for those in your bible study, but most of us have been there, done that. You gotta build your foundation better before you can make the assumption that we even care what the bible says. I've read it. I've read a lot of books. So, why is the bible an authority? And don't prove this point by quoting the book itself. What would that accomplish?

 

This reminds me of the book Confederacy of Dunces (I highly recommend it by the way; funniest book any of you will EVER read). Ignatius Reilly, the hero/villain/prognosticator, rewrites history and then cites his own works in the back of the thesis as proof to his outrageous claims. Even funnier, the works cited were never published, just some unread, unpublished dissertations he managed to sneak into the back of the University of New Orleans library. Quoting scripture as proof of scripture's authenticity is kind of like that. You got to lift the bar much, Much, MUCH higher if you are gonna impress this group. No offense, I'm just being frank.

[quicksand]

Sam,

 

YOU SAID:

 

I still hold that misunderstanding of the Bible is rife on this site... should I post more?

 

You have removed my quote of "You are just like me... a believer of invisible pink unicorns" completely out of context! Damn you!

 

You made the claim:

 

Furthermore, we cannot really "prove" anything.

 

Since we can not prove that invisible pink unicorns don't exist, you are obligated to believe in them.

 

I really can't stand how low you people go sometimes.

 

I have not made a patronizing statement, but you are now once again patronizing me! Your characterization is absolutely disgusting and incorrect.

 

But I will say that you are dishonest.

 

Moving on....

 

You want me to dance the way you want?

 

No, but here get back to the contradictions between John 5:31 and John 8:14 since you are the expert here and we are just all misunderstanding the bible.

 

You made the claim, iron Jesus out.

 

• Jhn 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

• Jhn 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

 

Also, while you are at it, please resolve, since your studying 1 Peter now (read original post in its entirety):

 

1 Pet.2:18 -  Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

 

AND

 

Well, I used the KJV. You use the GNB. Which translation is more accurate? Please demonstrate your authority here. We had another apologist say the KJ 1612 is the only reliable word of God and all others are the stuff of Satan. According to him, your spewing the devils nonsense. Just wanted to let you know.

 

Please provide adequate proof of your scholarship and mastery of the bible.

 

You were the one who did state after all we were misunderstanding the bible.

 

So dance whatever way you want, but validate your steps please oh Fred Astiare of the Bible.

 

There are some posts here which are productive. Most are not I have to say. You view mine that way no doubt, but I stand by what I said: Biblical mis-understanding. Bad teaching. I'm not saying it's your fault,

but we all have a model of God in our heads. Is yours the Biblical God?

 

PROVE IT! PROVE IT! PROVE IT!

 

IRON JESUS OUT! He says quite plainly that his testimony of himself is not true, but then again turns around say his testimony is true.

 

So take it up Jesus and prove your authority over the Bible!

 

Should be easy to do, for you.

[Vigile]

When I look at the wonders of this world, I see no need for another...

 

 

 

Very nicely put! I've never heard it put quite that way.

[Guest sam90]

Very nicely put!  I've never heard it put quite that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

By "holiness" I assume you mean closer to god.  But I don't believe in the supernatural, let alone a supreme being.  Don't get me wrong, happiness in and of itself is a vapid empty existance (much like I here heaven described).  But I must admit to being "content" with my life and certainly "joyful" at times.  In short, outside of the redemption from an eternity of pain, I see no motivation for setting aside my worldview in favor of one that incorporates a biblical one. 

 

When I look at the wonders of this world, I see no need for another...

 

If I'm content, why would I want to be "holy"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but you will die. Though not too soon I hope! Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness. Motivation comes from many places, you are content with your life at the moment... but what if your friends had holes blown in them , members your family slaughtered and your school was destroyed by a tank? I'm not being morbid these are people I know. Jesus has blessed them abundantly because they realised they were needy and believed they were loved.

 

That's the strange thing with Apologetics - you can't tell people they aren't happy when they are! But when death is closing in all around... all those things which seemed important and to make sense dissapear like the mist. Death will close around one day man.

[Celsus]

 

Sam,

 

Let's get back to the basics. You made a claim that you had read the majority of this site and then postulated that most people left Christianity for reasons that are not justifiable by reading the actual anti-testimonies. While there are a few people here who are primarily motivated by emotionalism, there are also quite a few of us that walked away from Christianity for logical and/or intellectual reasons. Let me briefly recapsulate why I am no longer a Christian and why I dod not complete my degree in theology.

 

1. The Abrahamic God is an impossibility because the attributes claimed by said deity are mutually exclusive. (see Omni paradoxes).

 

2. I do not hold belief that the Bible is the word of God due to: (a)Contradictory statements or claims (see Nativity narratives in Luke vs Matthew for example) ( Internal logical fallacies © External contradictions (see Quirinius/Herod or Tyre prophecy as examples) (d) Factual errors in terms of natural sciences (see germ theory vs. demonic influences, for example) and (e) Examples of incoherence and or pious fraud (see Eusebius and Aprocrypha referenced by canonical scripture).

 

3. The prevalence of accepted Christian doctrines being in existence in earlier pagan religions and incorporated into Christianity argue strongly agaisnt Christianity being unique or factual.

 

4. The lack of contemporaneous corroboration for the man known as Jesus Christ, his work, his miracles or any other reference outside of the Bible.

 

Until a Christian can effectively address these issues, belief in Jesus and the Christian religion has as much credibility as the belief in Zeus, Amen ra or a thousand other claimed deities.

 

Bruce

[Guest bdp]

Three years of Bible college and many many hours of independent study on my own - I think I understand the Bible, which is part of why I reject it as anything more than folklore and fables.

 

bdp

[quicksand]

Some of you openly label me as such because of my beliefs - I do not do the same to you ok!

Lip service.

 

I will not fall into the trap layed before me: that somehow I am better then you by claiming I understand scripture "better" or have more "authority". Read and make your decision... someone posted that I lack Biblical understanding then went to show he had a drought himself! (No satan in OT? Read Job.) I guess I'm going to have to step up a gear later on, but I am tired and covered in plastic dust and need a cup of tea!

Utter crap.

 

I have read and made my own descision after reading the Bible and my instruction as a younger kid. And that the Bible and its God is a load of hooey. And now your here telling me and the others that we are misunderstanding?

 

You laid the trap yourself Sam.

 

Enjoy.

[Celsus]

Yeah, but you will die.    Though not too soon I hope!  Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness. Motivation comes from many places, you are content with your life at the moment... but what if your friends had holes blown in them , members your family slaughtered and your school was destroyed by a tank? I'm not being morbid these are people I know. Jesus has blessed them abundantly because they realised they were needy and believed  they were loved.

 

That's the strange thing with Apologetics - you can't tell people they aren't happy when they are! But when death is closing in all around... all those things which seemed important and to make sense dissapear like the mist. Death will close around one day man.

 

 

Ok Sam, you have now got me pissed. Have you ever been in combat? Have you ever dealt with people who were injured and/or dying in emergency situations and you have to make the Triage decision on who lives and who dies? Are these broad claims about what happens when people face death based upon your personal experience or just what you imagine? I am walking proof that your above claims are fallacious. I have been in combat and I deal with hurt and dying people (sometimes painfully) on a regular basis. No one, let me restate this, no one in either situation that I have ever seen worries about your fictional demi-god or god in general. In every instance when I have been in these stuations, the hurt and dying are concerned about their loved ones, their mothers, wives, children and want them to know that they love them. Your fear tactics are juvenile. Like Obi Wan said in Star Wars, your Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded.

 

Bruce

[Vigile]

Yeah, but you will die.  Though not too soon I hope! Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness.

 

 

So you say! Now I understand why readers here get upset with people like you. Take your scare tactics and your hell and shove them where the sun don't shine. This kind of crap may work in Sunday school, but come on, you have to be able to do a little better than this. Aren't you embarrased?

 

I once remember witnessing to a 16 year old Taoist who knew more about the bible than I (and I pretty much read the bible from your perspective at the time). I walked away refusing to give my testimony to another person before knowing what I really believed and being able to conveigh it in a way that was both understandable and rational. So, here I am. These are the results. We are not illiterate fools here man, you have got to use some logic and make your premises valid, otherwise...

 

Man, I'd be embarrased...

[Guest sam90]

Alright Bruce my response was to this:

 

When I look at the wonders of this world, I see no need for another...

 

If I'm content, why would I want to be "holy"?

 

This guy is content with and he see's no need for another world etc

 

Maybe that is because he is content. That was my point, not the one you think I made.

 

"We have nothing but we have everthing."

 

As for that lip service comment, name call it if you will but it is true.

 

And also, 3 years of Bible College - which one, because there are many where the lecturers are atheists and therefore do not believe the Bible and teach as such. PM is you want I am curious because it's quite important if you want to chalk it up.

[white_raven23]

Yeah, but you will die. .....  Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness. ........ But when death is closing in all around... all those things which seemed important and to make sense dissapear like the mist. Death will close around one day man.

 

 

Oooooooh!!!

 

Esa Peeeple gonna diiieee??? (Jar Jar- Star Wars Episode I)

 

 

Guess what? Everything organic dies! Death is NORMAL. It's what is supposed to happen.

 

Only religious folk treat death like a glitch in the System.

 

Guess what? YOU are going to die too!

 

The difference between you and me?

 

YOU are worried about the after....I'm too busy with living my life to be that focused on the end of it.

[quicksand]

As for that lip service comment, name call it if you will but it is true.

Iron Jesus out. Correct him. Go ahead.

What is stopping you?

 

Until you do, anything you say is nothing but a backhanded compliment.

 

So yes, it is true as you suggest, the comment is lip service.

[quicksand]

And also, 3 years of Bible College - which one, because there are many where the lecturers are atheists and therefore do not believe the Bible and teach as such. PM is you want I am curious because it's quite important if you want to chalk it up.

Yeah that's right. Only believers can teach you the orthodox of the bible and the correct way to read and interpet the bible.

 

Make me wonder why Christians like yourself can claim to be such experts on other religions then. They are surely not believers in anything other than christianity.

[Eponymic]

Hi Sam,

 

Here's a couple of the reasons I see why people are saying you're condesending:

 

First:

I will not fall into the trap layed before me: that somehow I am better then you by claiming I understand scripture "better" or have more "authority".

 

versus

 

There are some posts here which are productive. Most are not I have to say. You view mine that way no doubt, but I stand by what I said: Biblical mis-understanding. Bad teaching. I'm not saying it's your fault, but we all have a model of God in our heads. Is yours the Biblical God?

 

Your saying that you claim you're not better, but then you say you uphold your view that there is rampant bad teaching & biblical misunderstandings here.

What this says to people is that you don't want to appear that way, but at the heart of it, you are indeed willing to be patronizing, because you have made several similar statments that indicate that you have superior knowledge, but have not given any sufficient evidence to back up these claims.

 

It what ways does this bad teaching show up? What are the specific misunderstandings that compelled you to say that there is a lot of Biblical misunderstandings amongst people here?

 

If you don't substantiate claims, then all it is is talking down to people, not debating with them using evidence & reason.

 

 

Second:

Is this kind of repsonse more akin to your liking? Doubt it but I can go up another gear if needed, I can dance!

 

This is a presumptious statement in my mind.

You ask a question, but then presume the answer is no. This indicates a closed mind and that you already know the truth, which is condescending because, why ask the question if you don't really want to hear the answer or think you already know the answer to the question.

 

And even though you probaby think its funny. It appears to others, at the very least to me, as rude & condescending to add a sarcastic remark on top of something like this.

 

Third:

Let's go back to this God is envious/jealous business. Let's do this intelectually shall we as someone accused me of being too "emotional":

 

Using the third person is something the teacher everyone hates in elementary school does. Nobody likes being talked to in the third person. Say 'I'd like to go back' or maybe, 'I want to address this issue' or something akin to that. But its patronizing to most people anytime you use the third person.

 

Finally:

Yeah, but you will die.    Though not too soon I hope!  Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness. Motivation comes from many places, you are content with your life at the moment... but what if your friends had holes blown in them , members your family slaughtered and your school was destroyed by a tank? I'm not being morbid these are people I know. Jesus has blessed them abundantly because they realised they were needy and believed  they were loved.

 

Prefacing statments is a sign of courtesy & showing that something is your opinion. If you don't preface (like with "Your greatest need is for forgiveness") then it reads as if you know that this is what everyone values first & foremost, and that those who don't just don't get it and are lesser because of it.

 

 

I will grant this- Yes, some people have been condescending, rude, & mean in return. However, not accepting any responsibility for your role in this, or at least showing some humility, is also a patronizing action to those who recognize the situation & are willing to claim both their mistakes & their victories.

 

(p.s. I recognize you said, "I promise I have not tried to be patronising." But you negated any meaning that had by first throwing a hole slew of negative quotes back at people. Yes they said some mean, condescending things, but humility is showing that you have no ill will, not proving it.)

 

 

I hope you see that I'm merely going overboard here to show there is ample proof for why people have made that claim. I understand that you came into hostile territory and it may have thrown up some defense mechanisms for you. And I know that's hard, so please, just show a little respect and everyone will start showing it in kind. That's how it works here.

 

It's not so much about religion as it is as just showing some basic kindness, respect & decency to your fellow man.

 

 

 

Peace,

Erick

[Guest sam90]

Anyway, Jesus is again contradicting himself. John 5:31 says he can not testify for himself but does a perfect 180 in John 8:14 he says he can testify for himself.

 

Nope. In Roman/Greek law, the testimony of one person "is not true", but you need two persons for verification. Jesus is aware of this:

 

John 5:31 MKJV

(31) If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.

 

 

V.31 is a hypothetical - it starts with IF.

 

John 8:13-17 MKJV

(13) Therefore the Pharisees said to Him, You bear record concerning yourself; your witness is not true.

(14) Jesus answered and said to them, Though I bear record concerning Myself, My witness is true. For I know from where I came, and where I go. But you do not know from where I came, and where I go.

(15) You judge after the flesh, I judge no one.

(16) And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me.

(17) It is also written in your Law that the testimony of two men is true.

 

Jesus says his witness is true, yet he admitted it was not sufficient testimony alone to claim their belief. Jesus does yield to the rabbis legalistic and religious demand for proof:

 

 

The witnesses:

 

THE FATHER

Joh 5:32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.

 

 

JOHN THE BAPTIST

Joh 5:33 You sent to John, and he bore witness to the truth.

 

 

SCRIPTURES

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,

 

MOSES

Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you, Moses, in whom you trust.

 

 

John Wesley summs John 5:31 up like this: "If I testify of myself - That is, if I alone, (which indeed is impossible,) my testimony is not valid."

 

Why does he say it is impossible?

 

The Father and the Son are the two witnesses:

 

John 10:30 WNT

(30) I and the Father are one."

 

 

 

I usually take a lot more time on this kind of thing, but I gotta get up early so goodnight. Post more of these contradicitons if you want to. Maybe not I can take them all, but God's word speaks.

[Japedo]

I will not fall into the trap layed before me: that somehow I am better then you by claiming I understand scripture "better" or have more "authority". Read and make your decision... someone posted that I lack Biblical understanding then went to show he had a drought himself! (No satan in OT? Read Job.) I guess I'm going to have to step up a gear later on, but I am tired and covered in plastic dust and need a cup of tea!

 

 

 

Well, you do say that right here in your quote,

 

Biblical mis-understanding. Bad teaching. I'm not saying it's your fault, but we all have a model of God in our heads. Is yours the Biblical God?

You not only said it again, but you said it in your initial post.

 

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of biblical understanding.

 

You are implying if not directly saying you have a better understanding of the scriptures, which is condescending. You assume because we don't agree with you, it's our simple misunderstanding. You're not willing, to perhaps question your own beliefs. Most of us have been where you are, that's the part you're not getting. Most of us were the one's 'witnessing' at one point. pleading if the person would just see things our way, they would see the 'truth'. You are looking more the fool for not knowing this, when it's been stated time and time again by the actual Ex-Christians themselves.

 

Now, I know for myself personally, When I started to Seek answers, Truthful ones, not doctrine or dogma. I went to see when my Church was founded, (The Assemblies of God was founded in 1914 ) where it broke off from and why, and well I went backwards from there, all the way to Judaism which was the founders of the original "prophecy of Christ". How else to understand where Christ came from if not to see it thru the eyes of a Jew? Christians have such zero concepts of the Jewish Prophecy or even the Jewish Messiah, however they speak as if they have authority on it. That's where my eyes were opened, around the same time I was looking into that, I was also looking into ancient pagan religions, the parallels to Christianity are mind numbing. Again I will stress with your book of Job Comment, The book of Job number one is an allegory, Number two, I'll cut/copy the Satan Reference from a Jewish Perspective.

 

The Hebrew word "Satan" is used in the Hebrew Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied to:

an enemy in war (1 Kings 5:18; 11:14, 23, 25), from which use has developed the concept of a traitor in battle (1 Sam. 29:4)

an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. 109:6); and (3) to any opponent (2 Sam. 29:23).

An antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. 22:32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Quick Facts about: Balaam

Quick Summary not found for this subjectBalaam in the guise of Satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known

 

As an angel who works for God, and acts as a prosecuting attorney against mankind (the Book of Job).

 

 

Please note that I'm doing this for debate purposes. I do not believe the God of the Jews is "THE GOD" either, This conclusion I have arrived at after a long seeking. I did not arrive at this conclusion lightly, or as a simple disbelief. I looked at it from a fair perspective. Such as in the other examples I cited in my last comment. Justice is Justice, Once someone is simply favored because of who they are, it's no longer Justice, its Favoritism and Justice will always lose in this case.

 

I have learned much from rabbis, and from Judaism as a whole, In fact it gave me peace of mind at a time I needed it. Peace of mind doesn't necessarily equate truth though. Which is why I'm probably an agnostic. I don't believe or disbelieve. I figure I don't and never will have all the answers, which will keep me seeking them.

 

and just to set the record straight, I'm not a He.

[chefranden]

Yeah, but you will die.    Though not too soon I hope!  Everyone you love will die. Your greatest need is for forgiveness.

My greatest need is for nice hunk of juicy beef grilled MediumRare with some sauted baby reds tossed with onion and garlic and a fresh spinach salad.

 

And I don't need forgiveness. (see Ezekiel 18)

 

Motivation comes from many places, you are content with your life at the moment... but what if your friends had holes blown in them , members your family slaughtered and your school was destroyed by a tank? I'm not being morbid these are people I know. Jesus has blessed them abundantly because they realised they were needy and believed  they were loved.

Sounds to me like they can't afford anymore blessings.

 

That's the strange thing with Apologetics - you can't tell people they aren't happy when they are! But when death is closing in all around... all those things which seemed important and to make sense dissapear like the mist. Death will close around one day man.

Really Holy Moly I didn't know that! Kind of makes me regret all that time I spent in church when I could of been fishing or making love. Dang! Rats! Better have 2 steaks for supper. And pie!

[Ouroboros]

Hello ex-Christians - I am an ex-unbeliever!

 

I'm an ex-ex-unbeliever. It started with no faith, then belief for 30 years, then no belief.

 

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of  biblical understanding.

 

You're absolutely right. The fact is in every congregation and denomination I joined, or visited, or talked to or read about their teachings, all of it combined is what's wrong with Christianity and the understanding of the Bible.

 

There are (IIRC) 1.1 Billion Christians in the World, and there is 1.1 Billion ways to interpret the Bible, and none of them are correct, because none of them have 100% agreement. I'm sure you'll find 99.999%+ but there will always be some differences. So the only explanation is that my own interpretation is the only one that’s right for me. Your interpretation is only yours and yours only.

 

The Bible is interpreted by personal experience and opinion instead of absolute dogma. You claim to believe in dogmas, but you most likely will deviate slightly in some aspects.

 

So in all this, of course you can find something in what we were taught that doesn’t match your teaching, and ergo, we didn’t get the true teachings and that’s the reason for our fall out.

 

But this is just your excuse to avoid the truth, that you have your doubts, just like we did, and the reason why you’re here on this site and arguing, is because you need approval of your faith from us. You’re hoping to convince some of the infidels here, that you have the real faith, just so you can beat your chest and say “I was right!”

 

Unfortunately you have gone to the wrong place for this. We are not people searching a faith or a particular god to believe in. Many of us here really do NOT believe there is a God, or highly doubt there is a god with the attributes the Bible gives him.

 

The difference between us and you is that we’re trying to explain things with rational and logical arguments. If we believe in anything, then it would be logic and reason. So if you want to reach our hearts and touch our souls, you have to bring arguments, of at least minimal logical level, to the table. So don’t give us arguments based on the Bible, because it won’t hold. For us the Bible can only be proven with sources outside the Bible, not within.

 

We don’t have to say “God is a bad god”, because you can see it in the Bible itself. In the OT he is angry, violent, vindictive, cruel, and merciless, punish the innocent and demand obedience on impossible laws just so he can punish people even more. He pretty much describes a psychopath husband that beats his wife to obedience every night. No one had to teach me this, it dawn on my when I started to think for myself, instead of listening to preachers giving me the “wrong” interpretation of the Bible. So you see, it was their “bad” teaching that led me to the truth, because they were didn’t reveal the truth!

 

Then you might claim that the NT shows us the true picture of God through Jesus, which had anger problems, judgmental, law breaker, categorical, un-respectful and contradicted himself. You can not see the truth of the Bible without breaking free from the bondage religion keeping you in. You and I are standing on two different sides of a wall, and I have been on your side for 30 years and seen, not every, but plenty of the bricks in the wall. But have you seen my side of the wall?

 

Maybe you say you were an atheist before, well then I just have to claim that you had bad teachers and didn’t hear the truth about atheism, so your understanding of it is too limited, and therefore you were never a true atheist. And the reason to why you are a Christian today is because of all the anger you have towards the few bad atheistic people you met.

 

Someone mentioned that I was "walking in the flesh" when I mentioned I lead Bible study. Hands up, that is so true. I just felt I needed to communicate that I am not some ignorant fool. Some of you openly label me as such because of my beliefs - I do not do the same to you ok!

 

Actually you did, when you say that our disbelief is based on bad teachers and wrong interpretations. We are not ignorant fools about the teachings.

 

I went to bible school too, and it was a hard core, evangelical school, the largest in Europe. Even Americans (at least used too) go there, about 2000-3000 students every year. It was very fundamental and very thorough.

 

And I went there after being to around 1000 meetings and bible studies over many years before that. I’ve heard and read many different ways how to interpret the Bible. My claim is that it was not because I got the wrong teaching of the Bible, but because I got the right one, and finally saw through it.

 

There are some posts here which are productive. Most are not I have to say. You view mine that way no doubt, but I stand by what I said: Biblical mis-understanding. Bad teaching. I'm not saying it's your fault, but we all have a model of God in our heads. Is yours the Biblical God?

 

And here you go again! We didn’t get the wrong or bad teaching; we got the right and correct teaching, from the most liberal viewpoint to the most extreme fundamentalistic viewpoint, you have them all here on this site. So if you combine all the different experiences, you will not miss the common denominators we represent that it’s not the teaching but the real Bible that is the problem. Of course, experiences with people contributed to the whole, but not one, but all of them, including ourselves.

 

So give it up. That is NOT the reason to become an ex-christian. One single bad teaching, from one single preacher, from some far-fetched country-side village, is not the reason. For some it was, yes, but for the main part of us, the answer is NO!

 

That's the strange thing with Apologetics - you can't tell people they aren't happy when they are!

 

That’s the funny thing with freethinkers too, you can say we’re not happy, but … we are!

 

Death will close around one day man.

 

Yes it will, and to tell you the truth, I’m not afraid. Whatever is beyond life, if there is anything, that’s for that day to be discovered? I’m just as free, or free-er, as before, and just as un-scared of death. It’s a matter of acceptance of life. If I’m wrong, so be it, I will have a serious talk with God then, because he owes me a big apology and an explanation to his erratic behavior. If he doesn’t exist, then I won’t know anyhow, and it won’t hurt. If I have to go to hell, then I know God was unfair and unjust after all, and I was right, so I will take my punishment with pride and know that the alleged loving God was wrong.

[Vigile]

My greatest need is for nice hunk of juicy beef grilled MediumRare with some sauted baby reds tossed with onion and garlic and a fresh spinach salad.

 

 

That was just cruel! Worse than Sam's scare tactics.

 

Ok, I must elaborate for this to make sense. I'm in Russia and a good steak is nearly impossible to find. I thought about the food I miss from the US and steak is probably it. I saw it for $70 at one restaurant, but I have my principles...

[Ouroboros]

That was just cruel!  Worse than Sam's scare tactics.

 

Ok, I must elaborate for this to make sense.  I'm in Russia and a good steak is nearly impossible to find.  I thought about the food I miss from the US and steak is probably it.  I saw it for $70 at one restaurant, but I have my principles... 

 

Poor guy. Our thoughts go to you man, and hopes that you will come to some good steak in the near future.

 

(You know if you do, that means I have supernatural powers, right?!)

[Ouroboros]

My greatest need is for nice hunk of juicy beef grilled MediumRare with some sauted baby reds tossed with onion and garlic and a fresh spinach salad.

 

I got me a burger from Wendy's, with chilli, no fingers.

Not as good as steak.

[mrtruth]

Sam...

 

Perhaps you should give us a reason WHY we should believe all of those Bible verses you're quoting....believe me, I know them...I was a Christian for 30 years!

 

Why should a non-beliver trust in your book?