Christian wants to talk

[Dame Edna Everage]

Hello Possums!!!

 

My my! I see we have a newcomer here! You know, my mum always said that there are no strangers! Just friends you haven't met yet! She is now in a maximum security twilight home.

 

I see we have a misguided poster here named Sam. Sam, why do you believe? You look like you are suffering from a severe case of EDS (Edna Depravation Syndrome).

[Guest sam90]

Is there a straw man smilie?

 

 

That sign is wrong - Gospel preaching behind...

 

I still hold that misunderstanding of the Bible is rife on this site... should I post more?

 

"NO!"

 

Anything you would like to say?

 

If I am wrong about Jesus being who he said he was, then please fill me in on what I'm missing. Is there some important fact that Christians don't know? Humour me... this as far as I know, is not an apologetics site in the strict sense - it is for Christians who have fallen away.

 

The premise is, once you believed Jesus was who he said he was... and now you don't. Enlighten me as to why, then maybe something constructive rather then slanderous will happen... you never know!

 

[DeathWorship]

you are wrong about christ because there is no earthly way you could know he was the messiah, PERIOD. for all you and everyone on this forum knows, jesus was a schizophrenic con man who duped people into believing he was the son of GAWDH and all his "miracles" were elaborate cons.

[pitchu]

this as far as I know, is not an apologetics site in the strict sense - it is for Christians who have fallen away.

 

 

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[Dame Edna Everage]

Hello Possums!

 

My my, this site isn't about Christians falling away, this is a site full of people who woke up and found Christianity to be, what should I say? Unreliable?

 

These poor possums were not given the choice to see for themselves whether Christianity was the truth or not! Oh No No No! They were taught to assume it was true, and were discouraged from using their baloney detection kit!

[LloydDobler]

I still hold that misunderstanding of the Bible is rife on this site...

Yeah, in every one of your posts.

 

Enlighten me as to why, then maybe something constructive rather then slanderous will happen... you never know!

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It's not our job to enlighten you of anything. This site is not for you. If you haven't figured it out with your 'reading of the site for a while' then you are either ignorant or completely stupid. The straw man alert was sounded right in your first post when you simply declared that every person on this site, many with decades of biblical study under their belts, can't hold a candle to your INCREDIBLE 18 MONTH JESUS JOURNEY.

 

Go away please.

[Guest sam90]

STOP BASHING MY HEAD IN WITH BIBLE "LOGIC"! PROVE THAT SANDAL WEARING HIPPIE EVEN EXISTED MAN!! COME ON!

 

It amazes me how often people say they don't believe Jesus existed but have no problems with any other historical figure.

 

It's the same thing with God making the world: (Uh-oh!!!) I think Stanley Kubriks movie 2001: A Space Odyssy really illustrates well this paralell contradiction that exists in science about empericism and about the existence of Jesus:

 

In the movie, everyone found a small slab of material (the monolith) that was assumed to be the creation of an extaterrestial intelligence. There would be no reason to doubt such a conclusion. And yet, as shown in the movies final screen, the human embryo is seen as naturally occuring. How is it, that a mysterious slab of black material could only be explained as being created by an intelligence and that something infinitlely more astounding (the human embryo) arrived merely by chance?

 

Do you believe Pontious Pilate and Herod existed? How about Nero? Do you honestly think our calender dates the birth of someone who never existed... are you really being objectionable about this? I'm sorry but it seems that you don't want to believe he existed, and you will only be happy believing if you meet him. You will!

 

Seriously - be objectionale about this.

 

There is no reason to believe he did not exist. There is reason to believe he did. Therefore you don't believe.

 

Sorry please correct me if that is not your view by posting evidence that Jesus did not exist.

[Merlinfmct87]

Hello Possums!

 

My my, this site isn't about Christians falling away, this is a site full of people who woke up and found Christianity to be, what should I say? Unreliable?

 

These poor possums were not given the choice to see for themselves whether Christianity was the truth or not! Oh No No No! They were taught to assume it was true, and were discouraged from using their baloney detection kit!

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Do I know you? You sound very familiar...

 

Merlin

[SmallStone]

Seriously - be objectionale about this.

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Huh?

 

The problem with Jesus isn't whether or not some cat named 'Jesus' existed. The problem is the extraordinary claim that Jesus was the son of god.

 

Did Herod claim this? Did Pilate claim this?

 

What, exactly, about this do you find so difficult to understand?

[Ouroboros]

What's God's name? I don't see how this is relevant to Jesus being nailed to a tree after telling a crowd of people "Whoever does what I say will not taste death" then a few days later rising to life. This is what I'm talking about. Not semantics or philosophy.

If you ever get married and say "I do" then you are exercising faith. I don't see how proof invalidates faith in God - rather it strenghtens it. Jesus did signs and prophecised to his disciples so that "later you will believe that I am".

 

I was trying to make you see that a book, any book or all books, can't describe a god of any kind, because he would be beyond words. Obviously a concept you don't accept. To you the Bible can be the only source of understanding God. A couple of thousand pages describe a creator that allegedly created DNA, where just the printout of the genome would fill millions of pages. If God exist, then in my opinion, there are not enough books in the world to ever describe him. If you put your trust in just one book, you have limited your understanding of God, and you really should read more “holy” books, preferable from other religions.

 

Furthermore, we cannot really "prove" anything. I cannot prove that the world didn't come into existence 5 minutes ago for example. We weigh up the facts and choose the best option. But our knowledge of the facts is forever changing, but our options don't.

 

Again more semantics and philosophy... not meat to chew over...

Who created this system? Any proof this isn't just a theory you made up? Sorry if I'm sounding quite confrontational, but it's good to challenge what we believe. I read things from infidels.org, Calvinistic texts, Orthodox, things on hell to challenge myself and find out about God, rather then dig my own foxhole and refuse to budge. I've only been a Christian 18 months, but it was kindof a jumping in the deep end because I went to live in Kosovo for a year! Seriously though, what you say about seeing over mountains... if only you'd seen what I had...

 

So, you can’t prove, yet you believe, don’t you? If you could prove that God existed, then would you need faith anymore? If it’s a fact to you, then it’s not faith.

 

According to the Bible, faith is the “belief in the unseen”, do you disagree with that? Or is your faith based on that you actually see God with your physical eyes? Faith is faith, and facts are facts, proof are proof and when you mix them you have only web of words without meaning.

 

I’ve seen bad things in my life too. I’ve seen all my kids struggling for survival and being close, very, very close to death. So I’ve seen a good part of it.

 

Besides, I was Christian for 30 years, and even went to bible school. I was going on missionary trips, preaching, teaching and many other things. It was not an easy path to loose faith. It didn’t come over night.

 

And regarding that you don’t want to sound confrontational, that’s totally ok, we like that here. Confront us, and expect us to respond with the same.

 

One question: Why does a thief feel wronged when someone steals from him? Maybe it's because there is a line drawn between right and wrong, and it's not us who draws it. Is abortion wrong? Some say yes, some say no, so for there to be right and wrong there must be a line, otherwise it's just stuff. But the thief always feels wronged:

 

Romans 2:15 "...This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned."

 

The Bible gives a reason for it, I wonder what is yours?

 

It was in my previous post. It has been evolved over many thousand of years. Groups of people that had a common sense of right and wrong just had a better chance of surviving in nature. There are research showing that animals have social structures too, like what is right or wrong, what is accepted and not.

 

Even among ants there is a given structure, which has developed over a long time. The ants with the best organized structure had a better chance to procreate. If animals have their morals to make the better fitted for survival, then so do we, it’s just something that has been developed in us.

 

Not all humans have the same morals. And some murderers really don’t care for their victims, because their empathy was not there. Some people can’t distinguish you, human being, from other objects. They would see you as an objects rather then a living thing. Not all thieves know that what they’ve done was wrong.

 

And to prove that to you, just consider your own argument; about abortion. Some think abortion is wrong, and some don’t, so God didn’t plant the “written law in the human heart” for that. Did he? Because if he did, wouldn’t we all agree on the issue?

 

Moral can be explained in evolution, and it can be with rational though and arguments, while moral created by a god, is just based on a presupposition that god must exist, therefore he created moral. And that is purely a circular argument.

[Dame Edna Everage]

There is no reason to believe he did not exist. There is reason to believe he did. Therefore you don't believe.

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My my! Perhaps you might enlighten these possums to the reason they should believe he existed?

[DeathWorship]

WTF how did 2001: A Space Odyssey get involved?

 

look, i know nero existed because there is factual documentation that doesnt include a fucking talking bush on fire and people turning into goddamn pillars of salt. if the bible were written in an intelligent manner, and they got rid of ALL of the D&D type bullshit, talking snakes, pillars of fire from heaven, and GOD.. then maybe it would hold some merit, but seeing as thats not the case.. i equate the bible with any other fairy tale.. i can read about Dr. Martin Luther King and watch videos of his existence.. i know he is a factual historical figure.. as for jesus, well, he and Santa Claus are still livin it up in Cabo San Lucas for all i know.

[Ouroboros]

Right. Exactly Right.

 

You are just like me... a believer of invisible pink unicorns (IPUs). (We love them here on this site.) Since we can't 100% not prove their existance either.

 

And belief in IPU is not a religion, but a relationship.

 

_______________

New  Hot-for-Jesus alert all!

 

Aah, More believers in IPUs. Love it!

 

Let us bow our heads and have a moment in prayer...

[MrSpooky]

It amazes me how often people say they don't believe Jesus existed but have no problems with any other historical figure.

 

Please give some evidence outside of the Bible that verifies this. And take note that Josephus' Testimonium Flavinum is largely considered to be a hoax.

 

In the movie, everyone found a small slab of material (the monolith) that was assumed to be the creation of an extaterrestial intelligence. There would be no reason to doubt such a conclusion. And yet, as shown in the movies final screen, the human embryo is seen as naturally occuring. How is it, that a mysterious slab of black material could only be explained as being created by an intelligence and that something infinitlely more astounding (the human embryo) arrived merely by chance?

 

Because the monolith is not explainable by standard natural laws. The development of the human embryo, however, is.

 

Of course, if you want to turn this into a debate about evolutionary biology, take it to the science forum, please.

[Ouroboros]

BTW I am definetely not a Calvinist.

 

I believe Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture - it is in fact a form of religious fatalism.

 

I heard a Calvinist say it is not fatalism because we can choose the kind of life we live, even though our eternal fate has been predetermined. We cannot seek after what we see as good, we cannot recognize we are sinners, we cannot trust in God. I simply do not find this in scripture.

 

fatalism: The belief that "what will be will be," since all past, present, and future events have already been predetermined by God or another all-powerful force. In religion, this view may be called predestination; it holds that whether our souls go to Heaven or Hell is determined before we are born and is independent of our good deeds.

Oh and I'm definately not an Arminian either.

 

It's your belief that Calvinists are wrong, but the Calvinists believe you are wrong.

 

So to believe in your god, we have to believe you.

 

To believe you, you have to come up with an undeniable argument why you are right, and everyone else in the world are wrong!

 

Oh! I see!

It's because you have the ultimate question to the answer!

(Answer is 42, if you didn’t know)

[Guest marktaylor]

Hi sam90,

 

Authentic bible scholars have shown that the Pentateuch (from which your first example is taken) is a cohering mass of historical (and otherwise) info put together by following identifiable sources "J" "E" "P" "RJE" "R" (abbreviated).

 

The first part of the "Isaac's almost sacrifice" story has been shown to be written by the "E" source up to the time Abraham puts out his hand to kill his son. The second part up to when the angel calls a second time is a "RJE" source.

 

One of the bits of proof for this is the "E" writer calls "The Big Guy" God (Elohim). The "RJE" source refers to the diety as YHWH.

 

If you really want to rack your brain, please explain to me why god put two complete versions of the flood story in the bible (with contradictions). You might also tell me why god killed everything, (almost) to save a fucking drunk and his dysfunctional family!

 

As for god's love; " O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I suffer you?" Matt.17:17 (lose our temper, did we?)

"especially those who castrate themselves, for the kingdom of heaven's sake."Matt.19:12 (You got my forskin, you bastards! You ain't gettin my balls!)

"For salvation is of the Jews"John 4:22. "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It is not meet to take the children's (Jews') bread and cast it to dogs (Gentiles)" After this poor woman, whom "Big J" is adressing begs enough, he heals her daughter. (What a sweetie!)

"Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever."Matt. 21:19 (Mark 11:13 informs us the tree was out of season.)

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! Woe unto thee, Bethsaida!...And thou Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell." Matt. 11:20-23

 

I have one more thing to point out concerning Jesus' decision making skills.

During his entire ministry on earth (alleged), his disciples witnessed lots of miracles (also alleged). And yet, when given almost any excuse, they deserted him. Furthermore, there were women, also in his group of followers who displayed far more courage than those male cowards!

Why didn't he make at least one of these women a disciple? Instead, he humiliated females (including his mother) throughout his life.

(His last insult was to give his mother away, I guess he was going to be too busy partying with the thieves!)

 

Anyway you have a long way to go before I'm convinced that the god of the OT or NT doesn't have bipolar disorder!

[Ouroboros]

...

As a matter of fact, most of the old testament "eye for eye..." laws were almost word for word from the Hammrubi Code laws.

...

Thank GOODNESS that the founders of this country didn't follow biblical laws when writing the constitution!  PHEW! 

...

 

Just a note (because you and I totally love to throw curve balls), I think it's the Hammurabi (correct me someone, if I'm wrong!).

 

I’m glad too the laws of this country were NOT based on the Bible, even though the neo-cons claim it is.

[white_raven23]

Why is it always the younglings (born-agains of 2 or less years) who come here and completely MISS the fact that we are all Ex-christians. EX as in "used to be" or "formerly".

 

Sam90, I'll keep this short. If I want preaching, I'll go to church. Guess what? I don't want preaching! I don't want Christianity. I don't want or need religion at all.

 

I'll tell you something little man (woman, whatever). Religion is an excuse for small minds to NOT HAVE TO THINK! Some people find this attractive.... "Oh look George! A book and a support group that will guide us on how to live our lives! How wonderful!"

 

Sam90, not everyone finds this kind of thinking appealing. Some of us prefer to live on our own terms. Will we make mistakes? Sure. But at least we will learn from the mistakes and not make them again. Can't tell you how many times I've seen christians making the same mistakes over and over.

 

Oh, by the way Sam90. While we do post our testimonies in a public forum, I'd have to say I'd be mighty offended if a christian dick like you reposted my testimony in the debate forum and took it to pieces.

 

If you went to AA or a group support for drug rehab, and someone in the group told a personal story, would you really feel you had the right to take that story out of that room? At the very least you should have gotten permission from the poster of that testimony to use their words in the debate forum.

 

It's known as courtesy you tactless piece of shit.

[Ouroboros]

I'm teaching a Philosophy of Atheism course this fall.  If you're in the UC Berkeley area, I hope you'll listen in a couple times.

 

Oh, I so wish that I could.

[DeathWorship]

It's known as courtesy you tactless piece of shit.

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<3

[scotter]

It is typical natural behavior of a newbie evangelical Christian. Sam feels there is a fire in him.

 

Sharing the good news and evangelizing, good for you Sam.

 

I do not know about the rest of the board members, but promise me one thing, continue to drop by and tell me your spiritual journey, your thoughts, when you curve soothes down a bit. Right now you are on high curve.

 

You for one may not be ready to comprehend and digest other board members’ responses because you are high right now, and neither are some of us towards your postings. But Sam, do be ready for piercing spears with no mercy, because you invited yourself to it.

[Ouroboros]

If I am wrong about Jesus being who he said he was, then please fill me in on what I'm missing. Is there some important fact that Christians don't know? Humour me... this as far as I know, is not an apologetics site in the strict sense - it is for Christians who have fallen away.

 

The premise is, once you believed Jesus was who he said he was... and now you don't. Enlighten me as to why, then maybe something constructive rather then slanderous will happen... you never know!

 

 

The panda picture was fun, by the way...

You know, we're strong believers in the pandas thumb here.

 

Yes, this site is for fallen away Christians, i.e. people that have left the darkness of irrationality and illogical beliefs, and come to the light of truth, reasoning, logic, rationality and conviction.

 

Don't expect people to be nice here. Most likely, you're nothing more than an appetizer for some of the people here.

 

Unfortunately, you might see some slanderous and hard words sometimes, but we are a pack of wolves that just like some lamb to come into our midst… crunch, crunch… yummy.

[MrSpooky]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/sco...ser/hojfaq.html

 

Here's some stuff about the historicity of Christ. Enjoy.

[Guest Peyton]

I have been quite fortunate really because it was the religion itself that revealed its inherent fallacies. The priests told me about a 'loving, just and good God' and then I read The Bible. The two viewpoints are polar opposites, so I was able to see Christianity for the heap of pure, unadulterated shit it was, is and ever shall be.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry please correct me if that is not your view by posting evidence that Jesus did not exist.

 

Sure, but first tell me the names of the people that wrote the gospels.

 

You know that the authors are unknown, and the names affixed to the gospels are just blunt guesses. You see the Gospels have lot of geographical errors, that point to that the authors didn’t even know the land they were talking about. So if they were wrong about Los Angeles being two miles next to New York, how can you deduce that Bob was a miracle worker in Chicago?

 

If you’re so sure the Bible is correct to about Jesus, and that he existed, then you haven’t read much yet.

 

My suggestion to you is; read a lot, not only the Bible or just literature supporting your ideas, but secular and scientific material.

 

BTW, Paul is not a trustworthy source, because he didn't meet Jesus in real life, he only had an epileptic induced apparition of light, and he had some schizophrenic phase when he heard a voice talking to him.