Christian wants to talk

[Eponymic]

Just a side note, he did not cut and paste a quote from a testimony in the testimonies FORUM, he was cut and pasting from a testimony posted on the FRONT PAGE of exchristian.net. 

 

For those of us that lurk only in the forums it's easy to forget there's a whole other page of testimonies, that have been submitted purely for very public consumption.  His whole comment was cut and pasted from that thread, so the testimony poster did have adequate opportunity to rebut and reply, it was not the blindside it is being made out to be.

 

That's a very good to know and very appreciated that you to pointed it out.

[narcissist]

Cookie Cutter Christian.

 

(where's the emoticon for "yawn"?)

[nightflight]

edit. what's the point.

[white_raven23]

Just a side note, he did not cut and paste a quote from a testimony in the testimonies FORUM, he was cut and pasting from a testimony posted on the FRONT PAGE of exchristian.net. 

 

For those of us that lurk only in the forums it's easy to forget there's a whole other page of testimonies, that have been submitted purely for very public consumption.  His whole comment was cut and pasted from that thread, so the testimony poster did have adequate opportunity to rebut and reply, it was not the blindside it is being made out to be.

 

 

Ah, thank you Lloyd. I'm a goob that has forgotten about the front page. Sam90, I do apologize for jumping on you.

 

However, I can't say I'm still all that thrilled about the usage. Thankful, I see this was you, and that you're cool with it. Very awesome of you.

 

But if you're going to do that Sam90, I just think it's better taste to keep front page stuff front page, go ahead and respond within the front page comments. Mainly because front page folks don't always become Forum members (I didn't until a few months after my front page testimony).

 

I just feel if you're going to discuss someone (front pager or forum member), do it where the person you are discussing has best opportunity to respond and defend themselves.

 

I'm just an ethical gal that way.

 

And...even though you did pull this testimony from the front page, I think it would have been more honorable if you posted in the comments section your intent to use the story here in the forum, that way if it hadn't been Thankful, who recognized it, whomever wrote it could have had the opportunity to join the forum and join in. And not have stuff happenin' behind their back.

 

[Asimov]

I was never a believer Sam....so your bible is irrelevant to me. I have no reason to accept it. Quoting from it is therefore moot.

 

You'll have to do better than that.

[Amethyst]

Internet. Public. No disclaimer. No copyright. Ok I did not repost and not quote one letter from that testimony. If you want to get into the International property rights (which has happened before) then it's OK to re-write a portion and cite the reference. Which I did... and certainly did not take it "to pieces". Read what I said. I pointed out one Biblical mis-understanding that she has used to support her testimony; that of God being envious. God does not envy since he owns all things anyway. Envy is a sin. I wanted to remove that support because it is not of God. k.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm a published writer. I have published poems and short stories on the Internet and gotten paid for them. I still own the copyrights to those poems. You cannot just publish them on your homepage and quote me without my permission, because poems are short works and a short work may not be quoted in its entirety. You may quote, I believe it is, one line from a poem or a paragraph from a story, but not the entire thing without the author's permission. Just because something is on the net does not mean it isn't copyrighted. Please go read the DMCA if you don't believe me.

 

If you write things like essays, poems, short stories, etc. and post them on your website, you do not have to add the "copyright by Xyz" line to them. It is automatically assumed. An anti-testimony is essentially an essay, and would fall under the DMCA.

 

I do know what I speak of here. I have done my homework on this issue before.

 

It is also considered extremely rude to steal another person's material for the purposes of MSTing it, and is not a good way to make friends.

[IAm_Lucifer]

Sam90

 

I read about four or five lines of your initial post before by mind started reading “blah blah blah blah.” Your reasoning for being a Christian means nothing to me. I don’t care about how you have managed to take a ridiculous fairytale and made it real for yourself. I have read hundreds of stories like yours; none of them address the basic issue of why Christianity is true, only how you have managed to make Christianity work in your life.

Haven’t you ever just stepped back with no preconceptions and thought to yourself…

 

Would the creator of the universe set up a system where he granted humans the power to reason and then ask us to set it aside on penalty of everlasting torment?

 

Your religion is an abomination, your faith is misplaced, and your humanity has been destroyed.

 

Christianity is the way? No thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought about whether I should post in this thread. Any Christian who comes here and starts of by saying " I have been reading this site and I realise that most people left Christianity because they were done wrong by the church etc" is not worth discussing with. They believe that they have The Truth and that we are mistaken or even worse, we refuse to accept their version of The Truth .

 

Sam has already posted that Roman records exist proving Jebuz was a historical figure. I am sure he means Josephus or Tacitus and I have been down that road so many times it makes me sick. Comparing Jebuz to real historical figures is a no no.

 

Within the next couple of days this thread will get very heated with insults going back and forth. It is the standard course of events that takes place when the fundy can't convince anyone to take their words seriously and convert instantly.

 

Sam,

Read what I Broke Free posted. It is a good summary of the attitude you will encounter here. Many of us a sick to death of people like you who try to convince us to convert within one thread. If you actually want to get somewhere with us I suggest something more than the assertions you have been making.

 

Jesus is a historical figure? Prove it. The bible is the word of God? Prove it. Prayers lead to miracles? Prove it? And if you want to actually know why we do not form part of your cult, then bloody ask. Keep your presuppositions to yourself or I will start making some about you.

[Japedo]

Hello ex-Christians - I am an ex-unbeliever!

 

Ok I have been reading this site for a while and it has become increasingly clear that the main causes of people posting here is going to a bad churches, bad teaching and a lack of  biblical understanding.

 

Sorry pal, Most people here could run circles around you when it comes to Biblical understanding. Most of us here have been indoctrinated with it inside and out. Save it.

 

The is a vibe that God in the Old Testament was "bad" and Jesus was "nice"... well they are exactly the same.

 

Really? The same? you sure? why did Christ  while on the cross ask his father why  he had forsaken him? Did God forsake himself, then ask himself why? (LOL)  

 

Ok do you all remember the story of Abraham and his son Issac? God told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Murder him. Cut his throat and burn him alive.

 

Bam.

 

Bad God.

 

Let's write an article on how bad God is. Feed the flames of pain, misery and confusion.

 

But as always, context is crucial. I'm going to paint you a picture of why I believe so many of you (not all) have rejected Christianity and why I embrace it, because there is clearly a difference in understanding here.

 

Now as the story of Issac unfolds, his son asks his dad, "We have the burning coals and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham answered, "God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering, Son." Then the two of them went on together.

 

Natural feelings here are how injust this whole situation is. Brutal and unfair.

 

Thankfully, the ink doesn't run out here, Abraham did not have to kill his son.

 

But God did.

 

Abraham was let off, but God didn't let himself off.

 

"God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering, Son."

 

The Old Testament has Jesus Christ written on almost every page.

 

You're reading with your Jesus glasses on, Doesn't really  surprise me, You of course have zero concept of the Jewish  belief system, of which you would need to understand before you even begin to look at the Original testament.  You see, if you read Dut. 24:1  you'll see that not one letter of the "law" will ever be changed, even if the earth ends the Law will still stand. No one dieing will reverse the law. even after the  end of time, the Law will always be.  Secondly, You have zero concept of the sacrifice system under Jewish Law as well.  You also have zero concept of the Jewish way of Forgiveness.  You can not even begin to speak of the Jewish laws (613 total, nice to see the Christians choose 10 out of them) You will see that from a Jewish  Point of View God coming in Human form is an impossibility. Their messiah is not God, another concept you lack. If you wish to speak about Jewish stories, and Jewish  prophecy's at least know what your talking about.

 

What an ugly brutal act. All those feelings of anger you have at God are pointing the wrong way. He poured all his anger and wrath upon Himself. This is love. He took your place so that you can pass as an innocent lamb in his eyes.

 

You toss out words with out knowing their meaning,  the Lamb, , your total lack of education in your own religion and the religions you claim to break off from are astounding. Reason the "lamb" was used in the Passover with Moses (smearing of Lambs blood,eating of lambs)  was, the Ram-God (sheep, lamb) Amun was the Egyptian God. Reason it was killed and eaten, blood smeared et al, was to show disrespect to the Egyptian god Amun.  (It's a pagan term, that Christians have adopted) Why would God relates himself to an Egyptian god?  How does this again to relate to Christ being a Lamb?

 

The other remarkable thing is that Abraham was going to do it. He believed God is good and he had faith. Satan tries very hard to demonise God. God is love. He is not loving - he defines love. He is willing that no one should perish and that all would come to repentence and faith pleases God.

 

There is no mention of your fictional character Satan, until the NT. You don't even have your Abraham story right, but again it doesn't surprise me, show me where Satan did anything in this story?  But who's talking facts anyways... LOL 

 

It's all about God's plan - his plan is the same as it was at the beggining - God will walk among his people and He will be their God. A pefect society where there is no pain envy or suffering, no people feeling insecure because they're too tall or short or fat or skinny, no villagers starved out by governments, no lonely grandmothers whose husbands died twenty years before they will, no talented people wasting their lives through a heroin addiction, no toddlers kidnapped by psychos, no crosses on the side of the road, no whole cities perishing in an earthquake? Ever? Only if the participants are perfect will this society exist.

 

No such thing as this Utopia, Never will be sorry  to give you a  reality kick in the teeth, but to do this  will remove free will.  Not only that but the earth is always changing and will continue you change.  Earthquakes are part of Growing, Volcano's, are all necessary to keep our planet growing and changing. You're being completely ludicrous  in your far fetch dream here. You refuse to even acknowledge that the earth changes because its earth. You believe God's doing it all for some mysterious reason.  You're a flat earth believer.

 

One of the distortions of modern Christianity in some churches is the idea that "God has a plan and he wants you to be happy". Looking back I can say this is totally true... but there is a huge difference to what that means to a believer and an unbeliever.

 

I'm really tired so I'll be short: happiness is not a good word to be using. What makes us happy? Sin does for sure sometimes. God's desire is not for us to be happy but to be holy. And holiness = happiness:

 

 

 

John 15:7-15 WNT

(7)  "If you continue in me and my sayings continue in you, ask what you will and it shall be done for you.

(8)  By this is God glorified--by your bearing abundant fruit and thus being true disciples of mine.

(9)  As the Father has loved me, I have also loved you: continue in my love.

(10)  If you obey my commands, you will continue in my love, as I have obeyed my Father's commands and continue in His love.

(11)  "These things I have spoken to you in order that I may have joy in you, and that your joy may become perfect.

(12)  This is my commandment to you, to love one another as I have loved you.

(13)  No one has greater love than this--a man laying down his life for his friends.

(14)  You are my friends, if you do what I command you.

(15)  No longer do I call you servants, because a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, because all that I have heard from the Father I have made known to you.

 

Again lack of biblical understanding and misguided teaching. The "God wants everyone to be happy and prosperous" teaching tastes good on the way down but leaves you feeling empty and confused when things don't work out.

 

Well,  This is a Wholely lot of Bullshit,    LOL what ever you define as "Holy" I suppose.  I think your theory here is pretty holey myself.

 

Being a Christian to me is not something I could imagine giving up - why would I want to tie those chains back around my feet? Only Christ gives me freedom not to sin sin - and sin brings misery and death, in this life and in the next.

 

Who the hell is asking you to give anything up?  Christ might give you freedom, More power to ya, My Freedom comes from  my own free will. I prefer to live my short life to the fullest now and when I'm dead I'll worry about being dead.

 

Look at the world - a world that lives as if God doesn't exist. I will give my life up for Jesus I promise to be obedient to him and to worship him. In worldy terms obedience and worship (I'll come back to worship) have bad connotations. But Jesus promises obedience brings "perfect joy". It's so true!

 

"Oh no it doesn't" some people say. "I was happier without all these rules." Again, back to the struggle of licence, liberty and legalism. Galatians is the best letter for this to be explained - it's how we are free to walk in the Spirit of God. If you sin the spirit grieves - you are in a relationship. These things are not spiritual milk and unbelievers will not understand or accept these - the Bible is clear that "the veil is taken away only through Christ". It's frustrating and it sounds like a cop out but think of it like this:

 

LOL I'm sorry, but you're just out there. I don't need Christ to  have boundaries, I'm responsible for my own actions. I choose or choose not to do whatever and take the good or bad consequences. There are no Mysterious forces forcing my hand, I exercise my choices on reason, logic and Free will.  Perhaps you feel better at the fact there is a father figure up there ready to discipline you for your mistakes, wrong choices and what not. As I say, more power to ya.

 

God could quite easily write his name in the sky and force everyone to believe. This isn't real force though - not as if he's messed with your mind or something. The problem with a lot of apologetics is that the aim is often to point to all the things which point to God, so that hopefully their audience will weigh up the odds and grudgingly believe. Or maybe just accept it. These people will not last 5 minutes as Christians - God promises suffering and discipline to his children. Look at the Christians in the Bible - Paul was shipwrecked at least 3 times and God could have prevented this. Why? Because the goal here is not temporal happiness but holiness. The Westerised Gospel often switches this around - happiness in this life and holiness in the next. The Bible teaches the opposite and this is why so many people get frustrated and confused with Chrsitianity. Like I said before, bad teaching!

 

Now God could force us all to belief but we live in a world where the God that is the Father of Jesus Christ is put to one side:

 

On Sept.11, 5,000 people died from a terrorist attack.

On Sept. 11, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 12, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 13, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

On Sept. 14, 50,000 people died due to poverty.

 

God hates injustice, and the Western world spends more on it's pets then it does on international aid. I think he is probably furious that collectively the world has enough money to eradicate poverty (fact: the money spent on WW2 could have done it) and enough food to eradicate starvation but it is not being done. It is not politcally correct to love someone as your self - we're told to strike a balance. Seems a bit lopsided to me.

 

The BibleGod is the Most unjust God. He hardened pharos heart  against Pharos will, then Killed the First born citizens  of Egypt (Children too no less) because Pharos heart was hardened.  He saved Lot, from soddam and Gomorrah (Where again he destroyed Innocent children) For only  Lot to turn around and Screw his own Daughters?? Incest is a virtue? That's what you call Righteous?   wtf?   Jacob had stolen the birthright away from his brother, and God rewarded him for it.  I could go on and On, however you get the jist.

 

Where is God in all this? You'll see...  

 

 

LOL We do see, you're the one having problems seeing facts staring you in the face.  You sugar-coat Evil and tell us it's righteous.  God's allowed to be unjust and Unfair because he's God, we know, ends justify the means and all of that diatribe.  I will perhaps when I have time, respond to the rest of your inaccuracies, however I've spent enough time on this comment for now.

 

[Guest Slayer-2004]

I am an ex-unbeliever!

 

No shit .

 

And Im sure your god is very loving . Look at all the wonderfull things he did for us !

 

1 ) Gave humans fallible minds that cannot know anything for an absolute fact . Faith is required to assume our reality even exists , and its near impossible for us to tell when something is a lie or a truth . But thanks to our pathetically low average IQ there sure damn well are a lot of people who claim to know the Truth ( much like yourself eh ? ) . Due to these fallible minds its also impossible for us to not sin at least once in our lifetime .

 

2 ) Created a law . A wonderfull law . A just law . All sinners burn in hell ! Yipeee !!

 

3 ) Sacrificed himself to himself to change the rule in #2 ( which he made himself ) so that everyone can go to heaven ... as long as they believe in a supernatural entity and an old book that claims to be the way to heaven . He made sure that no proof would exist so this would require faith . They can be sinners to the core and as long as they guess the correct religion they go to heaven .

 

4 ) Picked Christianity in your guess on what the truth is that you cant actually know thanks to how god made our minds ? DING ! DING ! DING ! Lucky 7's ! You get to go to heaven and enjoy bliss for all eternity . You didnt ? Bummer ... The Jesus ticket is the only way to heaven so you could have spent your life as a kind hearted and selfless buddhist but that doesnt matter to god ... You didnt guess correctly ! Its door number 2546300 not door number 5051236 you silly ninny poo poo head ! enjoy burning forever in hell .

 

5 ) Remember , its your own silly fault that your in hell . You chose to reject God on your own free will ! Did you actually know that you were rejecting the one true god ? Of course you didnt , as that would imply you had an infallible understanding of reality which god clearly didnt give us . But God makes up the rules and therefore they are justified . BURN BABY BURN !!!

 

 

Obviously the threat of hell for disbelief and promise of heaven for belief is all part of an all just plan created by a perfect being . There isnt a chance in hell that its just some ploy charlatans made up in order to gain more members by scaring the ignorant masses unaware of how ad baculum works , no sireee that conclusion might actually require rational thinking and we know from TAG that rational thinking doesnt work unless the bible god exists anyways ! Party in heaven foolish unbelievers !

 

...

[Fweethawt]

I didn't read through this entire thread but,

did anyone else catch this little nugget from

the opening post?

 

 

God's desire is not for us to be happy but to be holy. And holiness = happiness:

 

If God's desire is not for us to be happy, but to be holy, and since holiness equals happiness, we are still becoming something that God doesn't desire us to be which is a state of happiness from becoming holy.

 

So this just proves how screwed up the Bible God really is! Even if we become holy, which leads to happiness, we'll still have the Bible God pissed at us for becoming something that he never intended even though it is the eventual outcome of his initial intention!

 

 

 

(excuse me while I tend to more important things. I presently have an itch on my ass. )

[Vixentrox]

That makes no sensethat god don't want us to be happy then you say: "Holiness = happiness".

[Ouroboros]

I didn't read through this entire thread but,

did anyone else catch this little nugget from

the opening post?

If God's desire is not for us to be happy, but to be holy, and since holiness equals happiness, we are still becoming something that God doesn't desire us to be which is a state of happiness from becoming holy.

 

So this just proves how screwed up the Bible God really is! Even if we become holy, which leads to happiness, we'll still have the Bible God pissed at us for becoming something that he never intended even though it is the eventual outcome of his initial intention!

 

(excuse me while I tend to more important things. I presently have an itch on my ass. )

 

MAN, you made me laugh while I was taking a zip of water, and now my keyboard is sprayed with water ... IT's YOUR fault!

 

[Vigile]

One question: Why does a thief feel wronged when someone steals from him? Maybe it's because there is a line drawn between right and wrong, and it's not us who draws it. Is abortion wrong? Some say yes, some say no, so for there to be right and wrong there must be a line, otherwise it's just stuff. But the thief always feels wronged:

 

Romans 2:15 "...This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned."

 

The Bible gives a reason for it, I wonder what is yours?

 

 

 

I was just browsing and had to register so that I could reply to this response. It took a while to get approved, so maybe someone has adequately addressed this issue by now.

 

Sam, you made some sweeping statements about why members of the board had left church and their old belief systems behind. I have a sweeping statement to make as well. It seems to me that most Christian apologists fall back on the “conscience of the heart” issue as some sort of proof of god and Christianity. We would all likely agree that mankind feels pangs of guilt along with other forms of emotion defined as “conscience.” How this proves Christianity however, much less any metaphysical idea, is beyond me.

 

You may not accept it, but you and I and members of this board are all creatures of evolution. Moreover, evolutionary theory (regardless of the misunderstandings Christians and others have about the word “theory,” evolution in its broadest terms is provable BTW) accounts for the development of conscience in a much more comprehensible and useful way than does Paul’s “written on the heart” statement.

 

You wish to survive? It is in your best interest then to not kill others or you may be killed to. You don’t steal your neighbor’s chickens or rape his daughters because you don’t wish that your neighbor would steal your chickens and rape your own daughters. This is not hard stuff to comprehend.

 

In fact, aside from just evolutionary roots, Rousseau defined quite clearly how the “general will” of the people is formed based on the collective (to use a modern idiom) “group think.” Many of our laws are formed and judicial interpretation is defined based on just these very ideas. Pornography, for example, has been determined by the Supreme Court to be defined by “contemporary community standards.”

 

There are tons of data that show that morality is in fact not universal. Some of it may be more universal than others, but as much as Christians hate this fact, morality really is subjective and those pangs of conscience we all feel are the results of our survival instincts. If morality was in fact universal, we would all agree on what is right and wrong since we would all feel pangs of guilt for the same “sins.” Even you yourself point out that we can’t even agree on the issue of abortion.

[Vixentrox]

The fact that "morality" changes with the times also proves that it isn't solely governed by whats in the bible.

[Ouroboros]

Hi there Vigile_del_fuoco1,

 

Are you totally new or are you a returned lost ex-Ch-soul?

 

What ever you are, you are very welcome!

[Eponymic]

I was just browsing and had to register so that I could reply to this response.  It took a while to get approved, so maybe someone has adequately addressed this issue by now. 

 

Man, Sam,

 

If this doesn't make you stop and think, nothing will. You encourage someone who was just STOPPING BY, TO REGISTER just so they could debate & decry your posts.

 

Wow.

[Eponymic]

And its very nice to have you here Vigile

[Fweethawt]

MAN, you made me laugh while I was taking a zip of water, and now my keyboard is sprayed with water ... IT's YOUR fault!

 

 

I have a stack of bills here from Nivek.

 

He charges me for every one of his keyboards

that I'm responsible for ruining.

[pitchu]

Hey, Vigile, you and your fine mind are most welcome!

[Vigile]

Hi there Vigile_del_fuoco1,

 

Are you totally new or are you a returned lost ex-Ch-soul?

 

What ever you are, you are very welcome!

 

 

Totaly new. I just found this site yesterday and spent (wasted? - nah) the whole day twiddling around with it. From what I can gather this is the best site out there for ex-Christains.

 

Hopefully I can find the time to participate/contribute and not let my business slide too much in the process (ha ha).

 

Thanks for the welcome.

[Guest MalaInSe]

I still hold that misunderstanding of the Bible is rife on this site... should I post more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi!

 

How long have you been able to read Ancient Greek?

 

I'm assuming that you, having a true understanding of the bible, have at least read the New Testament in Greek.

 

Renee

[Onyx]

A another xtian spating on logic... Yippeeee.

[spamandham]

I never cease to be amazed that people come to this site, which is overtly anti-christian, under the delusion that we will give a shit what the the wholy babble has to say - as if the right dosage of apologetics is going to do the trick.

 

Even if he were right that we collectively misunderstand the Bible (implying of course that he doesn't), do I care? No. Nor would I care if I misunderstand the Q'uran, or the book of Morman, or any other collection of fairy tales invented by heat stroked goat fuckers.

 

It doesn't matter if the Bible can be harmonized with sufficient speculative gymnastics. It doesn't matter if Jesus was historical or not. What matters is if there is any credibility to all the nonsense. There isn't.

[Ian]

I wonder what his opinion of someone like me who has never believed, never had a terrible experience with a Church (other than it was too boring for a 6 year old) and just never bought the Xtian company line...

[Japedo]

Totaly new.  I just found this site yesterday and spent (wasted? - nah) the whole day twiddling around with it.  From what I can gather this is the best site out there for ex-Christains.

 

Hopefully I can find the time to participate/contribute and not let my business slide too much in the process (ha ha).

 

Thanks for the welcome.

 

 

Nice to have you Vigile, Welcome!