Jesus Or Hell!

[Abiyoyo]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

[Fweethawt]

We chose honesty, knowledge and common sense over belief.

 

I think that pretty much covers most people's "excuses" here.

[NotBlinded]

With the advent of science and technology, ancient beliefs no longer are able to have any meaning. We can't relate to the stories with a sense of awe, because many questions have been answered. What inspiration comes from hearing about a waring God when what most people in this day and age want is peace? What inspiration comes from hearing about 'heaven' and 'hell' when a three-tiered universe is nonsense? Where is heaven? Up there? No...not since the earth was proven to be round and when the people in China point upward, they are pointing in a different direction than we are. Where is hell? Where is 'below' the earth? So, God was changed to 'out there' instead of 'up there'. This metaphor also does not convey any meaning because 'out there' is so huge that it takes millions of years for the light from our nearest galaxy, Andromeda to even reach our eyes. So, where is out there? These are only a few examples. The metaphors are now useless.

 

I am not saying that God ceases to exist because the story becomes useless (because God isn't the story)...I'm saying the story needs to be updated or it will die alongside all the other myths. God doesn't change, but the stories need to. God is what it is and that's about all we can say directly about it. The stories are only ways to point your spirit in a direction that brings back that sense of awe and wonderment.

 

The essence that every religion tries to convey remains the same, but the metaphors and allegories need to change or there will be people that will reject God along with the story. That's another thing...it needs to be stated directly that the story is not God but a way to point the reader to God. If not, once again, God will be rejected with the story.

 

There is no way that a literal interpretation of any religion will remain much longer, unless that society is shut off from the rest of the world and knowledge.

 

It must change or be buried alongside all the other failed religions and I think that would be a shame. Or, maybe it would then finally be recognized for the wisdom it does contain underneath the literal nonsense. I'm sure I could go back and read some ancient Egytian religious texts and gain wisdom from it. But, then there is no sense of community if the entire religion dies. I think a lot of people need that, but there is only so much misinformation even the fundamental mind can tolerate, and in time, they too will have to decide where the truth is.

[Ladyfractal]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

Okay, I'll bite:

 

I'm not longer a Christian for a number of reasons.

1. Christianity does not make sense: It's an example of magical thinking
   
2. Christianity does not require a high enough moral standard
   
3. Christianity puts far too much emphasis on death (it is a death-cult)
   
4. Monotheism generally is nonsensical
   
5. Christianity requires belief in things which are positively non-sensical
   
6. Evangelical Christianity requires a level of intellectual dishonesty that is distasteful
   
7. Christianity is a partriarchial, sexist and heterosexist religion that strives to keep women in their place and gays in the closet
   

That's just a partial list. I will expound upon the ideas if you wish.

 

Cheers

lf

[Thackerie]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

For all the reasons already stated in the above responses - plus the fact that proclaiming christianity doesn't make any one a better or more trouble-free person so it's worthless.

[Abiyoyo]

We chose honesty, knowledge and common sense over belief.

 

I think that pretty much covers most people's "excuses" here.

 

 

Well. I chose honesty in that I will tell you that I believe Christ lived and died, and that I personally believe He was the Son of God. I also chose to keep knowledge of my surroundings as well as outside veiws of critcisism and challenges. I understand, comprehend, and try to relate and make applicable everyones veiw regarding a certain area of their faith, or position. Common sense, I use common sense in the fact that I will never deny the existance of a higher power, or Maker; based upon the fact that I know my physical life will end one day. Common sense tells me that this life is more than just being buried one day and someone singing Amazing grace at my funeral.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

With the advent of science and technology, ancient beliefs no longer are able to have any meaning. We can't relate to the stories with a sense of awe, because many questions have been answered. What inspiration comes from hearing about a waring God when what most people in this day and age want is peace? What inspiration comes from hearing about 'heaven' and 'hell' when a three-tiered universe is nonsense? Where is heaven? Up there? No...not since the earth was proven to be round and when the people in China point upward, they are pointing in a different direction than we are. Where is hell? Where is 'below' the earth? So, God was changed to 'out there' instead of 'up there'. This metaphor also does not convey any meaning because 'out there' is so huge that it takes millons of light-years for the light from our nearest galaxy, Andromeda to even reach our eyes. So, where is out there? These are only a few examples. The metaphors are now useless.

 

So, basically you are saying that God possiblily doesnt exist because this universe has no room for a God or where He would live. Maybe He has a condo, in a part of the universe undiscovered.

 

 

 

I am not saying that God ceases to exist because the story becomes useless (because God isn't the story)...I'm saying the story needs to be updated or it will die alongside all the other myths. God doesn't change, but the stories need to. God is what it is and that's about all we can say directly about it. The stories are only ways to point your spirit in a direction that brings back that sense of awe and wonderment.

 

You agree that we have a spirit? You said " only ways to point your spirit" as if you believe that there is a spiritual world.

 

The essence that every religion tries to convey remains the same, but the metaphors and allegories need to change or there will be people that will reject God along with the story. That's another thing...it needs to be stated directly that the story is not God but a way to point the reader to God. If not, once again, God will be rejected with the story.

 

By some, and many that have no hope will cling to it like its the last thing they will ever hear or see. Its all about need, and delieverance. So, people that need hope will get it, and people that want to criticize it will get that; it works both ways. The gray area around, ex the christian religion is that this need of hope and deliverance becomes the tool that the church has been using to strive as a business. Pretty sad actually.

 

 

It must change or be buried alongside all the other failed religions and I think that would be a shame. Or, maybe it would then finally be recognized for the wisdom it does contain underneath the literal nonsense. I'm sure I could go back and read some ancient Egytian religious texts and gain wisdom from it. But, then there is no sense of community if the entire religion dies. I think a lot of people need that.

 

Well. The thing is that any religion that has been around for the last hundred years or so, will most likely, by odds; not just die or go away. Yet, in a hundred years, we will probualy all be in a box in the dirt.

 

[Ouroboros]

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

People wasn't my reason to lose my faith; it was a process where emotions and reason where in constant battle until I had so much doubt that the only solution was if God could miraculously give me more faith, so I ask God for help, but didn't get one. I'm still waiting for God to interact and give me the faith I need, and still waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

 

According to the Bible faith comes from hearing or reading God's word. I've read the Bible many times, and heard thousands of sermons. And it wasn't enough to give me faith. Nowadays I research and read in all areas, not only what is approved by the clergy as "good Christian books". I read and digest information from both or all sides of the issues, and come to the conclusion that Christianity isn't more or less true than any other religion. It's just a childish belief that is detrimental to a mind that can reason and think freely. If you want to really believe something, you have to start from scratch, tabula rasa , by doubting everything and be completely skeptical, and build it from there. Otherwise you only believe what a few people want you to believe. Your path has to be your path, not someone else’s path.

[Abiyoyo]

I'm not longer a Christian for a number of reasons.

1. Christianity does not make sense: It's an example of magical thinking
   
2. Christianity does not require a high enough moral standard
   
3. Christianity puts far too much emphasis on death (it is a death-cult)
   
4. Monotheism generally is nonsensical
   
5. Christianity requires belief in things which are positively non-sensical
   
6. Evangelical Christianity requires a level of intellectual dishonesty that is distasteful
   
7. Christianity is a partriarchial, sexist and heterosexist religion that strives to keep women in their place and gays in the closet
   

 

Thats your opinion. It makes perfect sense to me. Magical thinking. Whats magical about a man that claimed divinity with God and said and did spiritual things, in which were written down by people. I mean, you really dont know what is after life. There are still people that can see things ahead of time, talk to dead people, etc. in modern day that arent even involved with God of conformed religion in general. The spiritual realm is there, and man has tryed to figure it out for centuries.

 

Jesus basically just came along, with a certain purpose, telling people there is more than what you see. Moral standards? Would you follow them, if they were at your standards? Biblically, and in humanity in general, people have failed to follow rules and regulations; whether they are set by God or government.

 

Nonsensical? People dying so that you can have the writtings of Christ is nonsensical. People writting about a man that showed them miracles, direction, and inspiration to perserve to the end; is nonsensical. If you consider Christianity nonsensical, then you should apply Isalm to that catagory, in which you are saying that over a third of the worlds population is nonsensical.

 

If you wrote a book about the nonsensical application of Christianity and Isalm then your writting would be nonseniscal to me, along with many others most likely.

 

Evangelical Christianity, please explain further.

Women in place. Where are you from? Here in the US, some of the most insiteful and dedicated followers of Christ are women. Gays? Why would Christians keep gays in the closet? What purpose does that serve. I dont keep gays in the closet, yet I will treat them equal to anyone else; as well as, if encountered, apply why I believe that life style isnt something Biblically sound. Plus, on a common sense level, we are man and woman. We have organs that enable us to reproduce. The gay lifestyle, in my opinion, goes againist human nature.

 

 

 

 

For all the reasons already stated in the above responses - plus the fact that proclaiming christianity doesn't make any one a better or more trouble-free person so it's worthless.

 

Depends on how you apply it. Being apart from God doesnt make anyone better or more trouble free. Whether it be God or no, people still lie and decieve and do cruel things.

[NotBlinded]

 

 

With the advent of science and technology, ancient beliefs no longer are able to have any meaning. We can't relate to the stories with a sense of awe, because many questions have been answered. What inspiration comes from hearing about a waring God when what most people in this day and age want is peace? What inspiration comes from hearing about 'heaven' and 'hell' when a three-tiered universe is nonsense? Where is heaven? Up there? No...not since the earth was proven to be round and when the people in China point upward, they are pointing in a different direction than we are. Where is hell? Where is 'below' the earth? So, God was changed to 'out there' instead of 'up there'. This metaphor also does not convey any meaning because 'out there' is so huge that it takes millons of light-years for the light from our nearest galaxy, Andromeda to even reach our eyes. So, where is out there? These are only a few examples. The metaphors are now useless.

 

So, basically you are saying that God possiblily doesnt exist because this universe has no room for a God or where He would live. Maybe He has a condo, in a part of the universe undiscovered.

Yes and no.

 

If you are thinking about God in a way that resembles a gray-bearded, old man then yes, there is no where that this being could be because this god would have to be close enough to send literal fire and water down from the sky. We know he's not close. If he exists as a being that is anthropomorhic and walks around on streets of gold, then he belongs to the same realm as we do. The realm of form and matter.

 

Now...if we talk about God in a way that is formless, then it is everywhere and intertwined with everything. God is not a being created by humans. Humans only know, and can recognize, form. That is why the stories use forms (words and thoughts) as allegories to talk about this formless God. What other way is there? In this way, God can exist and I feel it does.

 

 

I am not saying that God ceases to exist because the story becomes useless (because God isn't the story)...I'm saying the story needs to be updated or it will die alongside all the other myths. God doesn't change, but the stories need to. God is what it is and that's about all we can say directly about it. The stories are only ways to point your spirit in a direction that brings back that sense of awe and wonderment.

 

You agree that we have a spirit? You said " only ways to point your spirit" as if you believe that there is a spiritual world.

Yes...but it's not 'out there' somewhere. It is here alongside the world of form. It is its necessary opposite. The formless. What is sound without silence? What is silence without sound? We can recognize these opposites, why is it not possible that the opposite of form could be recognized in just the same way? Can you hear silence? Can you describe it? It can be described only by saying what it is not.

 

The essence that every religion tries to convey remains the same, but the metaphors and allegories need to change or there will be people that will reject God along with the story. That's another thing...it needs to be stated directly that the story is not God but a way to point the reader to God. If not, once again, God will be rejected with the story.

 

By some, and many that have no hope will cling to it like its the last thing they will ever hear or see. Its all about need, and delieverance. So, people that need hope will get it, and people that want to criticize it will get that; it works both ways. The gray area around, ex the christian religion is that this need of hope and deliverance becomes the tool that the church has been using to strive as a business. Pretty sad actually.

I agree with you 100%.

 

 

It must change or be buried alongside all the other failed religions and I think that would be a shame. Or, maybe it would then finally be recognized for the wisdom it does contain underneath the literal nonsense. I'm sure I could go back and read some ancient Egytian religious texts and gain wisdom from it. But, then there is no sense of community if the entire religion dies. I think a lot of people need that.

 

Well. The thing is that any religion that has been around for the last hundred years or so, will most likely, by odds; not just die or go away. Yet, in a hundred years, we will probualy all be in a box in the dirt.

 

Egytian mythology had a timespan of nearly 3,000 years and it died without modern technology. Most scientific discoveries have happened in around, I don't know, the last 200 years or so. Egypt did have technology indeed but it didn't have all the tools we do today. I would say that any religion will die that doesn't incorporate modern understandings with their beliefs.

 

Well, yes, we will be dead and buried, but there will be others after us.

[Abiyoyo]

 

People wasn't my reason to lose my faith; it was a process where emotions and reason where in constant battle until I had so much doubt that the only solution was if God could miraculously give me more faith, so I ask God for help, but didn't get one. I'm still waiting for God to interact and give me the faith I need, and still waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

 

Hans. If you are still waiting, then you still have faith. The question is, What are you waiting for? God to come down in a cloud and hover over your house, to relieve your anxiety, to help you financially, to fix tramadic events. Seriously. What is it, you are waiting for Him to do?

 

 

According to the Bible faith comes from hearing or reading God's word. I've read the Bible many times, and heard thousands of sermons. And it wasn't enough to give me faith. Nowadays I research and read in all areas, not only what is approved by the clergy as "good Christian books". I read and digest information from both or all sides of the issues, and come to the conclusion that Christianity isn't more or less true than any other religion.

 

Hans. Thats not the case. Biblically, faith is not from the meditation of Gods word. Jesus was marvelled at the Roman solider, that had more faith than anyone in Israel. So, that Biblically says the opposite. Faith is not based on knowledge or sermons.

 

Matt 8:10

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

(KJV)

 

 

It's just a childish belief that is detrimental to a mind that can reason and think freely. If you want to really believe something, you have to start from scratch, tabula rasa , by doubting everything and be completely skeptical, and build it from there. Otherwise you only believe what a few people want you to believe. Your path has to be your path, not someone else’s path.

 

Are you married Hans? If so. Why do you trust your wife? Do you know all her thoughts?

[NotBlinded]

Evangelical Christianity, please explain further.

Women in place. Where are you from? Here in the US, some of the most insiteful and dedicated followers of Christ are women. Gays? Why would Christians keep gays in the closet? What purpose does that serve. I dont keep gays in the closet, yet I will treat them equal to anyone else; as well as, if encountered, apply why I believe that life style isnt something Biblically sound. Plus, on a common sense level, we are man and woman.

Here is an example of change. In the time the bible was written, women weren't to be heard in church and their heads were to be covered. How many less adherents would they have in this day and age if that idea didn't change Yoyo? It doesn't matter where you are if you follow what the bible says without respect to the time it was written.

 

And surely you don't have sex everytime just to reproduce do you? Never changing positions for pleasure or doing something other than intercourse? Birth control?

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

If you are thinking about God in a way that resembles a gray-bearded, old man then yes, there is no where that this being could be because this god would have to be close enough to send literal fire and water down from the sky. We know he's not close. If he exists as a being that is anthropomorhic and walks around on streets of gold, then he belongs to the same realm as we do. The realm of form and matter.

 

Now...if we talk about God in a way that is formless, then it is everywhere and intertwined with everything. God is not a being created by humans. Humans only know, and can recognize, form. That is why the stories use forms (words and thoughts) as allegories to talk about this formless God. What other way is there? In this way, God can exist and I feel it does.

 

Yes...but it's not 'out there' somewhere. It is here alongside the world of form. It is its necessary opposite. The formless. What is sound without silence? What is silence without sound? We can recognize these opposites, why is it not possible that the opposite of form could be recognized in just the same way? Can you hear silence? Can you describe it? It can be described only by saying what it is not.

 

 

 

Maybe He is all the above. If He is God, then the defination of all things would be at His disposal. He could essentially be, go, or do whatever He wants since He defined the defined. Biblically speaking. God is defined by Christ as a Spirit. Moses said He is a consuming fire, in which i believe was the influence of his surrounding influences in Egypt. Anyway, hypothetically, if Christ is Christ; then God is a Spirit. Jesus said that the Spirit of God is upon Him, which makes understanding that God was upon Him. Jesus said the kingdom of God is within people; which implies that God is inside of people in His Spirit. So, if Jesus or another person, who has God's Spirit upon them approaches a situation or soceity, then the kingdom of God is upon those people. If the kingdom of God is upon them, then God is upon them.

 

 

 

Matt 12:28

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

(KJV)

Luke 17:21

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(KJV)

 

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(KJV)

[NotBlinded]

Maybe He is all the above. If He is God, then the defination of all things would be at His disposal. He could essentially be, go, or do whatever He wants since He defined the defined. Biblically speaking. God is defined by Christ as a Spirit. Moses said He is a consuming fire, in which i believe was the influence of his surrounding influences in Egypt. Anyway, hypothetically, if Christ is Christ; then God is a Spirit. Jesus said that the Spirit of God is upon Him, which makes understanding that God was upon Him. Jesus said the kingdom of God is within people; which implies that God is inside of people in His Spirit. So, if Jesus or another person, who has God's Spirit upon them approaches a situation or soceity, then the kingdom of God is upon those people. If the kingdom of God is upon them, then God is upon them.

 

 

 

Matt 12:28

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

(KJV)

Luke 17:21

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(KJV)

 

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(KJV)

Indeed...you are speaking my language.

 

The difference being is that the kingdom of God is always in you, you just have to access it. Jesus was aware of this 'kingdom' whereas most of us are not. That is why they saw Jesus as being special...the son of God. This grayed out his message that he was not the only 'son' of God and that the kingdom is within everyone. The only reason he was special was because he accessed the kingdom of God within himself and he was trying to show others how to also.

 

Do you see Jesus as a literal son of God or as a human that accessed God within himself?

 

Of course, God is not a 'He' but a formless 'essence'. These are just words, so they can't describe it. "He" can't just go here or there because this 'essence' is already everywhere.

 

In the words of the Upanishad:

 

"What cannot be seen by the eyes, but thereby which the eyes can see, know this to be Brahman the Spirit. Not what the people here adore."

 

It's not unique to humans because this essence was everywhere long before humans.

[KT45]

I have no reason to follow the stories of goat herders made to make sense of life.

[NotBlinded]

I have no reason to follow the stories of goat herders made to make sense of life.

I thought they were sheep...

[godlessgrrl]

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

I sense an attitude problem in the bolded text.

 

Have you actually read anybody's extimonies?

 

If so, were you paying attention, or just looking for what you wanted to see?

[Ladyfractal]

 

It makes perfect sense to me. Magical thinking. Whats magical about a man that claimed divinity with God and said and did spiritual things, in which were written down by people. I mean, you really dont know what is after life. There are still people that can see things ahead of time, talk to dead people, etc. in modern day that arent even involved with God of conformed religion in general. The spiritual realm is there, and man has tryed to figure it out for centuries.

 

Thank you for demonstrating my first few points for me. Firstly, what's magical about a man claiming divinity with god? Ummmm....do you really need that explained to you? But I was more talking about people being raised from the dead, turning water into wine, walking on water, casting out demons, etc. ALL of these are taken to have literally happened in evangelical Christianity. All of them are classic examples of magical thinking. People who can see things ahead of time? It's interesting that these folks who can do this, when faced with an empirically valid test perform no better than what one would expect from chance. Talking to dead people? Cold reading is a much more parsinomious explanation for various forms of mediums. You *say* the 'spiritual realm' is there but I have yet to encounter something that generally gets classed under that realm that cannot more elegantly be explained from a naturalistic standpoing.

 

Jesus basically just came along, with a certain purpose, telling people there is more than what you see. Moral standards? Would you follow them, if they were at your standards?

 

Let me explain what I mean by this. Ultimately, boiled down to its essence, Christianity is about getting into heaven and avoiding hell. Please don't say 'no, it's about having a relationship with god' or other such claptrap. Now, here's the thing, in Christianity one need only confess that one believes that Jesus is Lord and one is a Christian, free pass into heaven. So you have this problem. Take a Buddhist priest, this person goes out of his way to avoid causing harm to other sentient things (which in Buddhism encompasses a lot). He lives a life of compassion and kindness. That person is going to hell. Why? Because he didn't believe in Jesus. Another person, who was in and out of prison for rape, beat his wife and kids, stole, etc. but sometime during his internment comes to Jesus. The very next day, he is killed in the yard. He's going to heaven. Any religion where that is perfectly acceptable does not hold its adherents to a high enough standard.

 

The other problem--and I have noticed this in various forums both online and off--is that, for instance, American Evangelical Christian morality almost boils down to "reject evolution, reject abortion, don't be gay'. With a quick addendum of "Oh, and if you manage to be kind and considerate to others along the way no one will mind". The problem is, the first three have nothing to do with one's personal ethics while the second two manifestly are tied up in ones' personal ethics. Again, the emphasis in Christianity is on *other* people's behavior and not your own.

 

Nonsensical? People dying so that you can have the writtings of Christ is nonsensical. People writting about a man that showed them miracles, direction, and inspiration to perserve to the end; is nonsensical. If you consider Christianity nonsensical, then you should apply Isalm to that catagory, in which you are saying that over a third of the worlds population is nonsensical.

 

I put ALL of monotheism in the category of decidedly, tragically, non-sensical. So yes, I AM, in point of fact, saying that two-thirds of the planet are in the grips of a meme that is very much non-sensical. Some are more in the grips of that meme than others but if you believe that Jesus walked on water, that the Bible is the dictated word of god, that Jesus transmuted water to wine, cast out demons, raised people from the dead, was himself raised from the dead some three decades after having been born to a virgin, you are in the grip of a meme that is at its very heart non-sensical, non-rational and without a shread of empirically valid evidence.

 

If you wrote a book about the nonsensical application of Christianity and Isalm then your writting would be nonseniscal to me, along with many others most likely.

 

I cannot help it if you are beyond the most basic applications of logic and rationality. If I were to bother with such a task--and I see no reason to do so because others have done a far better job than I would--then I would not have three hundred pages of "Christianity and Islam are nonsensical" repeated over and over again and call it good. I would have my facts and evidences in order and if you *STILL* rejected the best available information put together in a internally coherent fashion, that would be your own lookout.

 

Evangelical Christianity, please explain further.

 

Umm, what do you mean please explain further? Are you telling me that you do not know what an evangelical Christian is?

 

Women in place. Where are you from? Here in the US, some of the most insiteful and dedicated followers of Christ are women.

 

I didn't say anything about whether or not women were *followers* of Christ. Christianity, certainly in its evangelical form, teaches that a woman's purpose is to be subservient to a man--namely her husband. It teaches that women should not teach men or be in positions of church authority over men. It teaches that a woman's highest aspiration and the central meaning of her life is in being a wife and mother. It teaches that men, for no other reason than that they are men, are head of the household.

 

Gays? Why would Christians keep gays in the closet? What purpose does that serve.

 

Allegedly, it 'protects the family' by making certain that gays and lesbians cannot do things like, oh, cover one another on their health insurance plans, adopt children, raise children together, teach in the public schools, etc. The groups who consistently oppose any gay rights measure are ALWAYS Christian ones. When I was working on getting the laws changed so that you couldn't fire a teacher just for being gay who opposed it? That's right, Christian groups. When I was working to get domestic partner benefits passed in the city of San Francisco and then around California who opposed it? Right again, Christian groups. When the Employment Non-Discrimination Act was passed, which stated that you could not fire someone for being gay in the same way and for the same reasons you cannot fire someone for being a racial minority or a woman, who opposed it? Sing it with me! Christian groups! Now, what does that have to do with keeping people in the closet? Simple. When I came out, it was an act of bravery because I really *might* have lost my job for being gay. People are more out--and by out I mean they do radical things like, oh, putting the picture of their same-gendered partner up at work to remind them why they are working so hard, just like straight couples do--because we've made long strides toward acceptance in this nation. Christian groups would like to reverse ALL of those or at least stand in the way of any more. To this day, in most states you can lose your job as a public school teacher for being gay, so most gay teachers I know are very much in the closet. The threat of losing ones' job, or housing, or kids is a powerful incentive to hide and lie about that issue.

 

Plus, on a common sense level, we are man and woman. We have organs that enable us to reproduce. The gay lifestyle, in my opinion, goes againist human nature.

 

Sex and reproduction have been effectively decoupled since the Pill. Realistically, if you think about it, sex and reproduction have been decoupled since the condom and perhaps longer than that since humans have ALWAYS attempted to find ways to prevent pregnancies while still being sexually active.

 

One last thing, YoYo. Keeping in mind that I was an evangelical Christian, here are the differences I see in myself eighteen years after I left that religion:

 

I am a better human being. I am kinder, gentler, more compassionate and more honest. I no longer hate myself and I do a pretty good job of not judging others. I am able to be patient and gentle with myself because I no longer see my very existence as being an offense to god becuase of my sinful nature. I value being a woman because I no longer see--and am no longer in environments where I am told--that my purpose is to be subservient to a man, to take a back seat, or that a man has some right to rule over me because of a Y chromosome. I no longer feel that I am sinning for doing something no more than wanting to meet another woman, fall head over heels in love and live my life with her. This has given me the ability to hold my head up high and not feel ashamed.

 

I am more appreciative of nature now that I understand that nature wasn't put here for us to exploit or to use, nature just *is* what it is. I can look at a tree and see an amazingly clever survival machine described by DNA. I can look at my cats and see the same molecule, arranged in another clever way, making another elegant survival machine. My appreciation for the elegance of the universe has grown now that I no longer see my species as the purpose of it all.

 

I am a more *spiritual* person, in the sense that I have a larger capacity for awe and a stronger commitment to compassion toward other humans. I have a commitment to working for social justice and change because I recognize that if I don't do it, there's no deus ex machina that will come in and save the day.

 

Leaving Christianity made me the woman I am today and I am a far better woman than I would've imagined possible almost two decades ago.

 

Cheers

lf

[Ouroboros]

 

People wasn't my reason to lose my faith; it was a process where emotions and reason where in constant battle until I had so much doubt that the only solution was if God could miraculously give me more faith, so I ask God for help, but didn't get one. I'm still waiting for God to interact and give me the faith I need, and still waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

 

Hans. If you are still waiting, then you still have faith. The question is, What are you waiting for? God to come down in a cloud and hover over your house, to relieve your anxiety, to help you financially, to fix tramadic events. Seriously. What is it, you are waiting for Him to do?

I lost faith or belief in that he exists, so how can I believe that he exists? My last prayer was for him/she/it to convince me of his/her/its existence. And I never received an answer or any growing feeling of belief inside me. Rather the opposite. The moment after I prayed, the last hope and faith in me was gone. The prayer answer I got, was that what was left of my belief disappeared.

 

Yoyo, if you didn't believe Jesus was real, what would you require to believe? There's no factual proofs or evidence that could convince you. And by your own words it's not by hearing the Gospels or the Bible. So why do you believe? It's just an emotional notion you have, nothing else! But what would you do if that emotion disappeared?

 

According to the Bible faith comes from hearing or reading God's word. I've read the Bible many times, and heard thousands of sermons. And it wasn't enough to give me faith. Nowadays I research and read in all areas, not only what is approved by the clergy as "good Christian books". I read and digest information from both or all sides of the issues, and come to the conclusion that Christianity isn't more or less true than any other religion.

 

Hans. Thats not the case. Biblically, faith is not from the meditation of Gods word. Jesus was marvelled at the Roman solider, that had more faith than anyone in Israel. So, that Biblically says the opposite. Faith is not based on knowledge or sermons.

 

Matt 8:10

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

(KJV)

Wrong, faith comes by hearing. There's a whole religious fanatic movement based on the concept, called Word of Faith movement. They have Bible schools all over the world teachings this.

 

This is the verse they build their theology on:

Ro 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

It's just a childish belief that is detrimental to a mind that can reason and think freely. If you want to really believe something, you have to start from scratch, tabula rasa , by doubting everything and be completely skeptical, and build it from there. Otherwise you only believe what a few people want you to believe. Your path has to be your path, not someone else’s path.

 

Are you married Hans? If so. Why do you trust your wife? Do you know all her thoughts?

One marriage, and still married, going on 20 years, and we have 5 kids. Trust and love is built, it is gained or lost. You give someone the benefit of the doubt, and depending on their actions you will either trust them more, or trust them less. I gave God the benefit of the doubt for 30 years, and my faith didn't grow, but shrunk and finally shriveled away to nothing. And it happened after I used my last little mustard grain of faith to ask for more faith. But God doesn't have that power. God can't give you faith. It's beyond his/her/its reach and power.

[Guest Freestate]

To my undaunted Evangelical friend Yo Yo...

 

I have read your post with interest and all the replies and let me start by saying this. Firstly.

you shouldn't swear as a Christian because according to your book it is a sin. So you have started out your question on this website by sinning. I find that touching. Welcome aboard.

 

Secondly, the main issue as I see it with almost everyone on this site is not that they necessarily had a terrible time as a Christian , but that in the end they realized that they were being dishonest with themselves in continuing to advocate and believe in a religion that ultimately betrays its own tenents. Let me explain:

 

The number one argument most of us have about Chrisitianity is that the bible is not only full of contradictions but it is full of contradictory and less than savory depictions of God. The god of the bible, in short is no better than most human tyrants throughout history. The ideas the bible advocates are no less than uncivilized and barbaric. The bible also happens to have alot of great moral teachings, great promises of an afterlife and resurrection and of course all the wonderful miracles to keep us hoping they will happen in our lifetime. In summary it is a book written by people in antiquity describing their ideals, their myths and their hopes. This is why it has so many inconsistencies, scientific errors and of course antiquated notions about social norms.

 

So to recap, I still think one can believe in a spiritual life and a creator or universal mind but i think it goes way beyond the pithy arguments, doctrines and ridiculous creeds that us humans have dreamt up. It is essentially a non measurable, non verifiable thing from our standpoint. Christians unfortunately claim that they worship God and have a relationship with God but more often than not they actually have a relationship with a book, a creed or a church belief system. this explains why they are so closed to anyone elses viewpoint, are so certain of everything and are generally viewed with disdain by anyone who enjoys the free exchange of ideas.

 

In doing this they have created wars, intolerant organizations, repression, and of course have prosletyzed and brainwashed millions of people throughout history.

If your God was so great and forgiving and truly loved us all unconditionally then the Christian concept of eternal hell could not exist and neither would blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. These are the notions of barbaric peoples who watched gladiators being torn apart by lions and who stoned sinners for their offenses.

 

Oh, by the way Yo Yo, I forgive you for swearing now go and sin no more...

[NotBlinded]

Good post Freestate and welcome!

[starelda]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

People being pricks and hypocrites did help push me away from Christianity. However, the reason I started questioning in the first palce was due to a different kind of people...the nice ones, the ones I love, my family. All of my family are non-Christian, all live good lives and are nice, loving people....yet Christianity says they're all going to hell because they don't happen to believe the right things. Yet Joe Bloggs murderer in the town prison will go to heaven because he accepted Jesus. This didn't seem right to me and at first sent me towards liberal Christianity and universalism but basically set the ball rolling for more questions.

 

The more questions I asked, the more confusing Christianity seemed to be. It no longer made much sense to me at all and I began questioning the existance of god. I eventually came to conclude that there is no god and the only reason I believed was because of familiarity and fear. Christianity was familiar...I was introduced to it at a young age during school, if I were made to sing/pray for another god/religion as a kid I'd have ended up believing that instead. And fear played a part in my need for Christianity...as an anxiety sufferer the idea of a god watching over me, protecting me, was comforting. In the end, I realised my belief was just fulfilling a need that I had but just because it did that didn't mean any of it was true.

[Fweethawt]

We chose honesty, knowledge and common sense over belief.

 

I think that pretty much covers most people's "excuses" here.

Well. I chose honesty in that I will tell you that I believe Christ lived and died, and that I personally believe He was the Son of God.

You may honestly believe that. But you don't honestly know that.

 

That is the difference between you and I.

 

I also chose to keep knowledge of my surroundings as well as outside veiws of critcisism and challenges.

What's your point? I was talking about knowledge that allows one to know the difference between knowing and believing. Not "surroundings" and "critisisms" or whatever.

 

I understand, comprehend, and try to relate and make applicable everyones veiw regarding a certain area of their faith, or position.

This is a lie. You've been here how long now? Reread this comment in light of the nature of this thread, and you will see the lie.

 

Common sense, I use common sense in the fact that I will never deny the existance of a higher power, or Maker; based upon the fact that I know my physical life will end one day.

So, because you are going to die, you believe in God. That, YoYo, is the weak foundation that most of us found ourselves standing on when we began to question.

 

That spider crawling on your wall is going to die, too. Do you think he ever contemplated the existence of a Higher Power™ ? Do you think he gives a crap about what the bible says?

 

Common sense tells me that this life is more than just being buried one day and someone singing Amazing grace at my funeral.

That isn't common sense, Yoyo. That's belief.

[Taphophilia]

YoYo,

 

Common sense doesn't tell you anything, it's what you want and what you hope for. You believe because you are afraid of death.

[Crunk Bishop]

yoyo,

 

i have to agree with HanSolo, Freestate and LadyFractal on this thread, because I left Christianity for similar reasons.

 

the main reason I left was because I started studying the Bible academically and found that 99% of what modern American preachers say about the book in their churches (and how people can relate to God through the book) just simply is not true. To stand up in a pulpit and to say that God wrote the Bible or that Jesus was God and saves from sin is disingenuous, since good evidence points us away from those claims... That was enough to make me swear off the pulpit and search into "liberal Christianity"... but another year and a half or so of study (and reading in the library) pretty much equipped me with the mental tools to pull myself out of Christianity. I was finally honest with myself about the whole thing and found the courage to say "No."

 

I know where HanSolo is coming from too, there was a time when I was looking to have a certain experience or gifts with "God" that others in my church kept claiming they had done. So I waited and prayed and waited and read the Bible and waited and nothing ever happened. I guess I just didn't have enough faith...? (or none of it was "real.") They all told me that I "just think too much."