Jesus Or Hell!

[Abiyoyo]

 

Here is an example of change. In the time the bible was written, women weren't to be heard in church and their heads were to be covered. How many less adherents would they have in this day and age if that idea didn't change Yoyo? It doesn't matter where you are if you follow what the bible says without respect to the time it was written.

 

And surely you don't have sex everytime just to reproduce do you? Never changing positions for pleasure or doing something other than intercourse? Birth control?

 

 

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Indeed...you are speaking my language.

 

The difference being is that the kingdom of God is always in you, you just have to access it. Jesus was aware of this 'kingdom' whereas most of us are not. That is why they saw Jesus as being special...the son of God. This grayed out his message that he was not the only 'son' of God and that the kingdom is within everyone. The only reason he was special was because he accessed the kingdom of God within himself and he was trying to show others how to also.

 

I agree.

 

Do you see Jesus as a literal son of God or as a human that accessed God within himself?

 

Son of God. Biblically, it says that the Spirit was upon Him without measure. So, I do perceive that the kingdom is accessible to anyone, and that also it is given in measure as well. But, I believe Jesus was given this without measure because He was representing Gods Son, Biblically.

 

 

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

I sense an attitude problem in the bolded text.

 

Have you actually read anybody's extimonies?

 

If so, were you paying attention, or just looking for what you wanted to see?

 

 

Half a bottle of Southern Comfort . Excuse the emphasis. I have problems too, ya know. You read my posts?

[Ouroboros]

They all told me that I "just think too much."

The greatest sin of all.

 

...

 

 

Hey, I have figured it out! The unforgivable sin. It's not blaspheme the Holy Spook or such, it's to use your brain!!! If you think, God will never forgive you.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Thank you for demonstrating my first few points for me. Firstly, what's magical about a man claiming divinity with god? Ummmm....do you really need that explained to you? But I was more talking about people being raised from the dead, turning water into wine, walking on water, casting out demons, etc. ALL of these are taken to have literally happened in evangelical Christianity. All of them are classic examples of magical thinking. People who can see things ahead of time? It's interesting that these folks who can do this, when faced with an empirically valid test perform no better than what one would expect from chance. Talking to dead people? Cold reading is a much more parsinomious explanation for various forms of mediums. You *say* the 'spiritual realm' is there but I have yet to encounter something that generally gets classed under that realm that cannot more elegantly be explained from a naturalistic standpoing.

 

Its only magical because your mind cannot comprehend the reality of those acts. If you were to have been an observer at that time, I think your opinion would be altered a little.

 

Let me explain what I mean by this. Ultimately, boiled down to its essence, Christianity is about getting into heaven and avoiding hell. Please don't say 'no, it's about having a relationship with god' or other such claptrap. Now, here's the thing, in Christianity one need only confess that one believes that Jesus is Lord and one is a Christian, free pass into heaven. So you have this problem. Take a Buddhist priest, this person goes out of his way to avoid causing harm to other sentient things (which in Buddhism encompasses a lot). He lives a life of compassion and kindness. That person is going to hell. Why? Because he didn't believe in Jesus. Another person, who was in and out of prison for rape, beat his wife and kids, stole, etc. but sometime during his internment comes to Jesus. The very next day, he is killed in the yard. He's going to heaven. Any religion where that is perfectly acceptable does not hold its adherents to a high enough standard.

 

Actually, I believe Paul said that. Maybe God will uphold that quote, yet Jesus said narrow is the path, and few will find it. Then again, some say that Jesus was referring to the Spirit of God in them. Nevertheless, Jesus never quoted in the NT that if someone doesnt confess that He was who He was then they would go to Hell. In contrast, Jesus said that if anyone basically curse Him, then they are alright, but if they curse the Holy Spirit ( in which Biblically is God); then they will not be forgiven of that.

 

The other problem--and I have noticed this in various forums both online and off--is that, for instance, American Evangelical Christian morality almost boils down to "reject evolution, reject abortion, don't be gay'. With a quick addendum of "Oh, and if you manage to be kind and considerate to others along the way no one will mind". The problem is, the first three have nothing to do with one's personal ethics while the second two manifestly are tied up in ones' personal ethics. Again, the emphasis in Christianity is on *other* people's behavior and not your own.

 

I agree, but disagre at the same time. One bigger problem is that people usually take a certain sect of something bigger and delute the bigger substance into this sects veiws. Just like not all Muslims are terrorists, because a few, without direction, decided to do what they did to the World Trade Center.

 

I put ALL of monotheism in the category of decidedly, tragically, non-sensical. So yes, I AM, in point of fact, saying that two-thirds of the planet are in the grips of a meme that is very much non-sensical. Some are more in the grips of that meme than others but if you believe that Jesus walked on water, that the Bible is the dictated word of god, that Jesus transmuted water to wine, cast out demons, raised people from the dead, was himself raised from the dead some three decades after having been born to a virgin, you are in the grip of a meme that is at its very heart non-sensical, non-rational and without a shread of empirically valid evidence.

 

Yeah. I never denied that. In my world, someone who cant let their mind be un pieced together with every fact or detail, is dead in faith. Faith is not just a Christian thing either. Faith is a real substance in real life that people that up every day. Someone had faith to sail to the end of what was thought to be a drop off because the earth was square. Faith discovers the unknown.

 

I didn't say anything about whether or not women were *followers* of Christ. Christianity, certainly in its evangelical form, teaches that a woman's purpose is to be subservient to a man--namely her husband. It teaches that women should not teach men or be in positions of church authority over men. It teaches that a woman's highest aspiration and the central meaning of her life is in being a wife and mother. It teaches that men, for no other reason than that they are men, are head of the household.

 

Well, maybe someone should point out to this sect that Paul wrote many letters to many different churches with various issues, in which there is possibility that those statements of conduct by a wife/woman, were directed to sometype of rebellious crowd of woman.

 

Christian groups would like to reverse ALL of those or at least stand in the way of any more.

 

Again. Groups are just that, groups. I do believe that the Gay lifestyle is not Biblically sound, yet I also believe that with whatever judgement I judge, it will come back to me. I also believe in Loving Truthfully. In which, in my little world, means that a person loves in the truth. The truth is that Biblically, its not upheld and condemned behavior, yet i still have to show that person the same Love of Christ that Christ showed the murder, adulteress, tax collectors, etc. Judge not, is what He said. Yet, we still have to abide in truth, loving others as ourselves.

 

Sex and reproduction have been effectively decoupled since the Pill. Realistically, if you think about it, sex and reproduction have been decoupled since the condom and perhaps longer than that since humans have ALWAYS attempted to find ways to prevent pregnancies while still being sexually active.

 

I agree, yet the kiss of a male and female is the most stimulanting factor in the erection of a penis, in which the brain is preparring the penis for ejaculation, or baby time. The condom is merely a manmade object that prevents sperm from going to the ovaries. Pill, different story. The pill alters the body differently. Nevertheless, the act of sex between a man and a woman, whether there are contraceptives or not, is an act of emotion and pleasure to reproduce. Its human nature. I do agrre that this act has been altered slightly, but I would imply the society and its Ok-ness toward these sensual experiences. I mean, turn on the Tv and see something senual. 50 years ago, that didnt happen.

 

One last thing, YoYo. Keeping in mind that I was an evangelical Christian, here are the differences I see in myself eighteen years after I left that religion:

 

"I am a better human being. "

 

"I am more appreciative of nature now that I understand that nature wasn't put here for us to exploit or to use, nature just *is* what it is."

 

"I am a more *spiritual* person, in the sense that I have a larger capacity for awe and a stronger commitment to compassion toward other humans. I have a commitment to working for social justice and change because I recognize that if I don't do it, there's no deus ex machina that will come in and save the day."

 

"Leaving Christianity made me the woman I am today and I am a far better woman than I would've imagined possible almost two decades ago."

 

Cheers

lf

 

Thats great, I dont think that any of that had to do with the belief in God or Jesus though. I think it had more to do with the freeing of the mind toward what others thought of you. As far as God and feeling bad about your lifestyle. Thats complicated. Yet I will give my simplistic opinion. People whether, gay or straight, have to deal with lust, and coveting of certain things that are sensual to them. A straight man is addicted to pornography because he has no sex life. What does He do? Well, in the confinds of God; He either does the deed, and repent alot, or self help, in which some sects believe is bad as well. God made us this way, I let Him sort the details. But, I will say that if this man was battling everday to overcome this mental offset of his conviction or wrongness, then the straight man is essentially in the same predicament that the gay person is in. Should the straight man or gay man/woman act upon there sensual thoughts if its wrong Biblically, and they want to do right in that area? No. And add, that they should try to not even think it. Masturbate, something.

 

Yet thats the tricky part, God made us this way, so how could any sane person say that masturbation is wrong. I do believe that the thought process during this self helping experience should be evaluated personally. But, then again, what normal man/woman is going to masturbate thinking of the sky or whatever. None, most likely. So, that subject gets deep, though when the act of interaction with other people in a sexual way arises, I firmly believe that is something that is acted upon and i hold it to the same degree as if a man went and got a prostitute a couple of times a week. Thats his choice, Biblical or not.

[Fweethawt]

Someone had faith to sail to the end of what was thought to be a drop off because the earth was square. Faith discovers the unknown.

You are lying again, YoYo.

 

You'll find that the lies become more infrequent once you learn to distinguish between belief and actually knowing something.

 

It did not take faith to sail around the world. Faith, is what had people believing that there was a drop-off in the first place.

 

Curiosity, courage and an adventurous nature is what it took to sail the seas. That, and greed and conquest, too.

 

Faith doesn't "discover the unknown", either. Faith makes shit up then parades around saying, "Look at me! Look what I got! I'm so special!"

 

And the serpent talked...

[Abiyoyo]

 

I lost faith or belief in that he exists, so how can I believe that he exists? My last prayer was for him/she/it to convince me of his/her/its existence. And I never received an answer or any growing feeling of belief inside me. Rather the opposite. The moment after I prayed, the last hope and faith in me was gone. The prayer answer I got, was that what was left of my belief disappeared.

 

Biblically. That prayer cant be Hans. Hebrews says that someone cant come to Him that doesnt believe that He is. To be blunt. I think that last hope and faith left awhile before you prayed, or you wouldnt have been praying for Him to show you He existed. the question is really, What influenced you to think that God didnt exist?

 

Yoyo, if you didn't believe Jesus was real, what would you require to believe? There's no factual proofs or evidence that could convince you. And by your own words it's not by hearing the Gospels or the Bible. So why do you believe? It's just an emotional notion you have, nothing else! But what would you do if that emotion disappeared?

 

When Im weak, He makes me stronger. When I cry on my knees begging for direction and hope, He gives me hope in His own way. When Im to overbearing, he humbles me. When I do bad, He lets me see it. When I do good, He lets me give Him glory. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to people that dont deserve it. Sometimes its the opposite direction.

 

My veiw on Jesus is a great display of the righteousness of God, or the act of being right. Jesus knew the hearts of all men/woman though, so He could act upon the inside of people deep inner self, as also did the Ot God of Israel. Though, Biblically, the OT has its moments of questions; the jest of the story is the same. Sometimes, the eye for an eye tooth for a tooth verses are taken to literal. God was trying to set aside a group of people different from the others. His people. yet, men like samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc were upheld and considered, in my opinion elect to God.

 

I look at the actions and emotions of Biblical characters that God considered righteous, outside of Christ as well.

 

 

Wrong, faith comes by hearing. There's a whole religious fanatic movement based on the concept, called Word of Faith movement. They have Bible schools all over the world teachings this.

 

This is the verse they build their theology on:

Ro 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

 

So. I believe this is the major problem in Christianity. Who is more accurate? Paul or Jesus? Jesus implies that a roman soldier of no direct link to any jewish heritage, has more faith than any in Israel; indicating that anyone can have great faith. Paul, on the other hand, is implying that faith comes about through the hearing of the Gospels or message; in which indicates that Paul believes that faith can only come through the message.

 

And it happened after I used my last little mustard grain of faith to ask for more faith. But God doesn't have that power. God can't give you faith. It's beyond his/her/its reach and power.

 

Why did you need more faith? Why would you pray for more faith?

 

I would pray for strength to help me through a certain circumstance that by faith I believe God is either going to make right, or strengthen me for the next steps in life, in lue of seeing me through it. Thats how i look at faith. Biblically, faith is the substance of things hoped for, that cant be forseen. So, to pray for faith, would be to pray for hope for something that you wouldnt know the outcome. is that right?

 

Faith is not the basis of the existance of God. The hope that He is all that we read, is having faith in Christ. Its unknown. Faith is the belief in the unknown.

[garrisonjj]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

For all the reasons already stated in the above responses - plus the fact that proclaiming christianity doesn't make any one a better or more trouble-free person so it's worthless.

 

 

How about all the harm it does! Fucking belief in majical figures, guilt, worry, moral upstandingness (when the very same churchoing, communion receiving christians will stab you right in the back.)

 

I know the difference between right and wrong. I've prayed all my life for nothing. Most christians I know are afraid of fuckin hell. If you study the issue, fucking hell was made up at a later time and the babble is just a book of rewritten fuckin fairytales. Reason enough?

 

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

For all the reasons already stated in the above responses - plus the fact that proclaiming christianity doesn't make any one a better or more trouble-free person so it's worthless.

 

 

How about all the harm it does! Fucking belief in majical figures, guilt, worry, moral upstandingness (when the very same churchoing, communion receiving christians will stab you right in the back.)

 

I know the difference between right and wrong. I've prayed all my life for nothing. Most christians I know are afraid of fuckin hell. If you study the issue, fucking hell was made up at a later time and the babble is just a book of rewritten fuckin fairytales. Reason enough?

 

 

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

For all the reasons already stated in the above responses - plus the fact that proclaiming christianity doesn't make any one a better or more trouble-free person so it's worthless.

 

 

How about all the harm it does! Fucking belief in majical figures, guilt, worry, moral upstandingness (when the very same churchoing, communion receiving christians will stab you right in the back.)

 

I know the difference between right and wrong. I've prayed all my life for nothing. Most christians I know are afraid of fuckin hell. If you study the issue, fucking hell was made up at a later time and the babble is just a book of rewritten fuckin fairytales. Reason enough?

 

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

For all the reasons already stated in the above responses - plus the fact that proclaiming christianity doesn't make any one a better or more trouble-free person so it's worthless.

 

 

How about all the harm it does! Fucking belief in majical figures, guilt, worry, moral upstandingness (when the very same churchoing, communion receiving christians will stab you right in the back.)

 

I know the difference between right and wrong. I've prayed all my life for nothing. Most christians I know are afraid of fuckin hell. If you study the issue, fucking hell was made up at a later time and the babble is just a book of rewritten fuckin fairytales. Reason enough?

 

Try praying for something bad to happen to you! Guess what! The same fuckin thing happens after such prayer, NOTHING.

In this we fuckin jesus pray,,,,amen!

[Carolyn the Red]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

I don't need any excuse. What's your excuse for still believing? (should I say just kidding too?)

 

I was told that if you really really prayed you would know the reality of God. I really really prayed. I didn't get anything back. Lather, rince, repeat over many years. Eventually I gave up.

 

It seemed silly to believe what I had been raised with just because, since so many people were raised with other beliefs that seemed just as credible.

[Ouroboros]

Biblically. That prayer cant be Hans. Hebrews says that someone cant come to Him that doesnt believe that He is. To be blunt. I think that last hope and faith left awhile before you prayed, or you wouldnt have been praying for Him to show you He existed. the question is really, What influenced you to think that God didnt exist?

(sarcasm)

That is so true. I was in serious doubt, and if you doubt then you're not a believer at all. It's totally black and white as you say. Either you believe everything 100% completely, or you are a complete unbeliever. There is nothing in between. Thomas didn't exist, because he doubted, or he was an Atheist. It works only like an on-off switch. You go from totally fundamentalist extremist Christian to hardcore Atheist in one second, and only because you say "Hey, lets' try to be an Atheist for a while."

 

And secondly, you're absolutely right, no one can pray without faith. This means, no unbeliever can ever pray the salvation prayer like many evangelicals say you should. You can't ask "Jesus' in your heart", because they are unbelievers at that moment. God can't give anyone faith, because they have to ask for faith in faith. It makes perfectly sense! It's just like when you have to get your first driver license; they require that you can identify yourself to get it, by using a current driver license. You can only get it if you already have it. It's so friggin' obvious! The answer to it all is that NO ONE IS A BELIEVER!!! Because if they were, they believed by themselves and not by faith from God, or they never believed and God never could give them faith, so they only fake it. Which one are you Yoyo? Are you the one with home-made-not-God-faith or are you a non-believer-faking-the-faith?

 

Also consider those idiots that say "try Jesus, and you'll see that he exists". You can't try to be Christian, because you have to have faith, and you won't get faith unless you have faith already. What a clever system.

(/sarcasm)

 

Yoyo you are again showing quite a complete ignorance of so many things. You live encapsulated in your little view of life, just like many other egocentric fundamentalist Christians. You consider your own version of Christianity to be the real and true one. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what I say, because I know how thick those religious-filtered-sunglasses you're wearing, really are.

 

What influenced me to think that God doesn't exist? Well. I didn't see anything in life correspond to what the Bible said that you would see. You ask God for guidance, and don't get any. You ask God for help and support, and you don't get any, and so on. I just didn't see God interact with the world, my family or my situation.

 

We had a serious accident '96, and one of my kids got hurt seriously. We still suffer the consequences. I did ask God for healing for my son, and it never came, but it didn't change my view on God much. I stayed a Christian for 5 years after the accident. The situation was eating me though. I tried to understand and figure out what to believe. Things didn't make sense anymore. I understood that the theology I had learned for a long time was wrong somehow. And I tried to figure out the "right" theology, and realized that nothing made sense. So in the end, I was becoming more and more convinced that the Bible gave a false image of God, but I still wanted to believe in some sort of God. I wanted to understand who/what God was and if he could hear me. I wanted to build my faith up from ground up, and not from what preachers, teachers or books told me to believe. I realized that only my own experience of God was important. So I tried. I wanted to stick with God, whatever or whoever he was. I then prayed, and asked this unknown God to educate me of his existence. And as I told you, I'm still waiting. The only education God has given me is that God does not exist. Or alternatively if God exists, then he wanted me to become what I am, an unbeliever. I stretched out my feeble and weak hand to God and asked for help before the last glow died, and he chose not to answer.

 

When Im weak, He makes me stronger. When I cry on my knees begging for direction and hope, He gives me hope in His own way.

 

When Im to overbearing, he humbles me. When I do bad, He lets me see it. When I do good, He lets me give Him glory. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to people that dont deserve it. Sometimes its the opposite direction.

It’s all in your mind. There's nothing outside that affects these things. Go through each one of those episodes in your life when these things happened, and take a serious and honest look at them. Think about if they could be explained by just emotional and subconscious reactions, if they can, then they are no evidence for a God affecting you.

 

My veiw on Jesus is a great display of the righteousness of God, or the act of being right. Jesus knew the hearts of all men/woman though, so He could act upon the inside of people deep inner self, as also did the Ot God of Israel. Though, Biblically, the OT has its moments of questions; the jest of the story is the same. Sometimes, the eye for an eye tooth for a tooth verses are taken to literal. God was trying to set aside a group of people different from the others. His people. yet, men like samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc were upheld and considered, in my opinion elect to God.

 

I look at the actions and emotions of Biblical characters that God considered righteous, outside of Christ as well.

You know what the theological and correct term for this is? It's: Bullshit!

 

You use words and fancy phrases to hide that you don't know if God exists. Your words give you away. You have no evidence of "God" in your life. You only use nice words to cover up your lack of experience of God.

 

 

So. I believe this is the major problem in Christianity. Who is more accurate? Paul or Jesus? Jesus implies that a roman soldier of no direct link to any jewish heritage, has more faith than any in Israel; indicating that anyone can have great faith. Paul, on the other hand, is implying that faith comes about through the hearing of the Gospels or message; in which indicates that Paul believes that faith can only come through the message.

I can tell you have a lot to learn.

 

Why did you need more faith? Why would you pray for more faith?

Again, you show a very proficient skill of ignorance. You didn't read and understand what I said in my previous post. Bullshitting around the subject won't get you any closer to truth.

 

Think about this man. You should start seeing that you don't understand me, and can’t understand me. Because you ask me questions that I answer and then you twist it into something else to fit into your template of default answers. When I try to correct you, you still miss the point, and tweak and twist again to make it fit your view. The truth is that you will never understand unless you start trying to understand. Seriously! You don't want to understand me, and you don't want to realize the truth. This doesn't lead anywhere. You asked the beginning question, and I tried to follow up to your other questions, but here you prove that you don't get it. So there's no need for me to continue.

 

I would pray for strength to help me through a certain circumstance that by faith I believe God is either going to make right, or strengthen me for the next steps in life, in lue of seeing me through it. Thats how i look at faith. Biblically, faith is the substance of things hoped for, that cant be forseen. So, to pray for faith, would be to pray for hope for something that you wouldnt know the outcome. is that right?

You prayed for hope, and by your own admission hope and faith is the same, and you could pray for hope. This leads to that you can pray for faith, but you said earlier that I couldn't! Make up your mind!

 

Faith is not the basis of the existance of God. The hope that He is all that we read, is having faith in Christ. Its unknown. Faith is the belief in the unknown.

If you only hope, then you are in doubt, then you are an unbeliever... you're an Atheist too then Yoyo! There is no middle ground according to your earlier comments.

 

You really don't get this. It's very frustrating. Do you really think that you can convince me about your dogma and theology by just being irritating? You seriously think that's the way to get connected with someone else and learn about life?

 

Faith, belief, doubt, etc is a sliding scale Yoyo. It's not black-and-white. Someone can be in more belief or less belief. They can be in more doubt or less doubt. Consider that I was in a lot of doubt and very little faith, and asked for more faith. But you said that I couldn't, because I have to have faith to pray for faith. But I say that it is the only thing you can do, and that is the only prayer that God must answer. Either faith comes from hearing the word, or it comes from God, or it comes from me (my brain).

Alternative 1: If it comes from hearing - well then it failed seriously in my case. And you don’t agree to this one anyway.

 

Alternative 2: If it comes from God – according to you a person can not ask for it because they need faith to ask for faith, so Calvinism is the answer to the dilemma. You’re predestined to have faith or not. Then if God exists, it is God’s will that I’m an unbeliever. So who are you to question God’s decision then?

 

Alternative 3: If it comes from my brain - then we're talking about delusions, and religion and faith and Christianity is just a big fake belief in Santa Clause.

 

From this discussion I can only see that you Yoyo have just a thick skull and full of self-centered pride like the rest of the fundamentalists and there's no use to continue this discourse.

[Ladyfractal]

 

 

Its only magical because your mind cannot comprehend the reality of those acts. If you were to have been an observer at that time, I think your opinion would be altered a little.

 

No, it's magical because it violates everything known about, say, physics, chemistry and biology. YoYo, the only reason you don't see it as magical is because we aren't talking about Zeus or Osiris. If I told the same stories about some other god (and there are stories that match the stories of Jesus but are about other sun-gods or light bringers) you would say "pish-posh!" but it's about Jesus so your gullibility is turned way up.

 

 

I agree, but disagre at the same time. One bigger problem is that people usually take a certain sect of something bigger and delute the bigger substance into this sects veiws. Just like not all Muslims are terrorists, because a few, without direction, decided to do what they did to the World Trade Center.

 

Not all Muslims are terrorists, this is true. But all the monotheistic faiths have at their core a central intolerance that is unescapable. If you believe that you practice the One True Faith you cannot long countenance other faiths. The ONLY reason you countenance living in a pluralistic society is because of the Enlightenment.

 

I put ALL of monotheism in the category of decidedly, tragically, non-sensical. So yes, I AM, in point of fact, saying that two-thirds of the planet are in the grips of a meme that is very much non-sensical. Some are more in the grips of that meme than others but if you believe that Jesus walked on water, that the Bible is the dictated word of god, that Jesus transmuted water to wine, cast out demons, raised people from the dead, was himself raised from the dead some three decades after having been born to a virgin, you are in the grip of a meme that is at its very heart non-sensical, non-rational and without a shread of empirically valid evidence.

 

Yeah. I never denied that. In my world, someone who cant let their mind be un pieced together with every fact or detail, is dead in faith.

 

Remember when I spoke of intellectual dishonesty? This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's even worse than that, actually. What you are saying is 'ignore your lying eyes and believe me'. No, YoYo, never again. You're right, I'm dead in faith--I don't believe in Yahweh, Jesus, Invisible Pink Unicorns, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, astrology, numerology or any other non-evidentiary belief and I am a more sane and rational person for it.

 

 

I didn't say anything about whether or not women were *followers* of Christ. Christianity, certainly in its evangelical form, teaches that a woman's purpose is to be subservient to a man--namely her husband. It teaches that women should not teach men or be in positions of church authority over men. It teaches that a woman's highest aspiration and the central meaning of her life is in being a wife and mother. It teaches that men, for no other reason than that they are men, are head of the household.

 

Well, maybe someone should point out to this sect that Paul wrote many letters to many different churches with various issues, in which there is possibility that those statements of conduct by a wife/woman, were directed to sometype of rebellious crowd of woman.

 

You mean like write the Southern Baptists, the Pentecostal, Four-Square Gospel and all the OTHER evangelical Christian denominations and sects?

 

Christian groups would like to reverse ALL of those or at least stand in the way of any more.

 

Again. Groups are just that, groups. I do believe that the Gay lifestyle is not Biblically sound, yet I also believe that with whatever judgement I judge, it will come back to me. I also believe in Loving Truthfully. In which, in my little world, means that a person loves in the truth. The truth is that Biblically, its not upheld and condemned behavior, yet i still have to show that person the same Love of Christ that Christ showed the murder, adulteress, tax collectors, etc. Judge not, is what He said. Yet, we still have to abide in truth, loving others as ourselves.

 

Okay and you can live in your world. I see no rational reason to join you there.

 

Sex and reproduction have been effectively decoupled since the Pill. Realistically, if you think about it, sex and reproduction have been decoupled since the condom and perhaps longer than that since humans have ALWAYS attempted to find ways to prevent pregnancies while still being sexually active.

 

I agree, yet the kiss of a male and female is the most stimulanting factor in the erection of a penis, in which the brain is preparring the penis for ejaculation, or baby time. The condom is merely a manmade object that prevents sperm from going to the ovaries. Pill, different story. The pill alters the body differently. Nevertheless, the act of sex between a man and a woman, whether there are contraceptives or not, is an act of emotion and pleasure to reproduce. Its human nature. I do agrre that this act has been altered slightly, but I would imply the society and its Ok-ness toward these sensual experiences. I mean, turn on the Tv and see something senual. 50 years ago, that didnt happen.

 

Where do I begin? Firstly, there are ultimate causes and proximate causes and you are mixing them up. The ultimate cause of all sexual responses is that we have a nervous system that is primed to have certain reactions to certain stimulae and while it is true that the original evolutionary purpose of those responses was reproductive, the proximate cause is pleasure. I know what a condom is, YoYo and it is beside the point. ALL birth control methods are technologies that decouple sex and reproduction making physical what we already have mentally--people don't have sex because they want to have a baby. People have sex because they get horny and then, if they do not take steps to avoid pregnancy, pregnancy eventually will happen all other things being equal.

 

Thats great, I dont think that any of that had to do with the belief in God or Jesus though.

 

You can think that but that doens't mean you are at all correct. As far as the rest of the claptrap about my 'lifestyle'. Let me clarify something for you. My 'lifestyle' is of an urban, technorati and graduate student. My being a lesbian isn't much of a lifestyle it simply defines a boundary around who I am going to fall in love with. It would appear you have a hard time grasping that people don't *want* to live in a magical world of faeries and people making pinot noir out of H20. There are those of us who are in love with reality and I am one of those. Good, bad, or indifferent I would rather know what is *real* than have a comforting belief. I would rather say "I don't know, let's find out" than have an answer that is manifestly incorrect.

 

Cheers

lf

[Manta]

Here's a challenge for you.

 

Try to defend your faith without using the Bible. It's one book of questionable origins after all and if you're so sure of your 'truths' then you shouldn't need to use it to prove it to all of us.

[Taphophilia]

There are no eyewitness accounts and the bible was written after Jesus died, by people who believed Jesus was god. How else could they make others believe he was god?

 

Why do you think Jesus did anything new and unique?

 

It wasn't like he did anything different than any of the other gods of his day, they walked on water, turned water into wine. were born of mortal women and had a god for a father, they fulfilled prophesy, raised people from the dead, etc. etc. etc. The other gods did them first, centuries before Jesus.

 

And why does he copy the exact same miracles that the other gods did? Dying and rising gods were a dime a dozen. Jesus didn't walk on air though, like some of the other gods could.

[All Gods Fail]

Here's a challenge for you.

 

Try to defend your faith without using the Bible. It's one book of questionable origins after all and if you're so sure of your 'truths' then you shouldn't need to use it to prove it to all of us.

 

 

 

Good one, man! Oh, that's rich - a believer defending his beliefs w/out the bible!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, you were serious?

[Manta]

Here's a challenge for you.

 

Try to defend your faith without using the Bible. It's one book of questionable origins after all and if you're so sure of your 'truths' then you shouldn't need to use it to prove it to all of us.

 

 

 

Good one, man! Oh, that's rich - a believer defending his beliefs w/out the bible!

Wait, you were serious?

 

The question itself is pretty much rhetorical, although I'd like to see an attempt at it, and yes, I was serious when I said it.

[Vixentrox]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

 

 

Lot of reasons. Reading the Bible was a factor to turning me away from the Christian god.

[Kalidasa]

 

Just kidden. Why isnt anyone here a Christian anymore outside of other people being pricks and hypocrites? I mean, that shit happened to me and I still believe. Whats your excuse?

Because not only am I able to read perfectly well, but I am also intelligent enough to read and understand what's written between the lines. Something most, if not all Christians are either unable or unwilling to do.

[Abiyoyo]

name='Freestate' date='Aug 25 2006, 05:53 PM' post='212231'

 

Firstly.

you shouldn't swear as a Christian because according to your book it is a sin. So you have started out your question on this website by sinning. I find that touching. Welcome aboard.

 

Thanks Bob. I been here awile though. You a great person, and not like some bitches that come across. Hope your ass enjoys posting on this site. have a great fucking day.

 

Now, I just complimented you with many sinful words with the love of Christ. In some cultures, or sects; the word "butt" is considered a slang, lowely term.

 

Question. Which of these two examples would be Biblically wrong.

 

The above or this:

 

Fuck you bitch. You dont know the first mother fucking thing about Christianity, asshole. Eat shit and die.

 

In this example, I have bluntly degraded your character. (Dont worry Bob, I dont think those things)

 

Secondly, the main issue as I see it with almost everyone on this site is not that they necessarily had a terrible time as a Christian , but that in the end they realized that they were being dishonest with themselves in continuing to advocate and believe in a religion that ultimately betrays its own tenents. Let me explain:

 

The number one argument most of us have about Chrisitianity is that the bible is not only full of contradictions but it is full of contradictory and less than savory depictions of God.

_snip_

 

How should God be pictured? I mean, do you want your God to be a certain way. Gods not a combo at Mcdonalds, Bob. Hes God. If that he is, then I believe He defines the defined, in which causes this effect of God, in application somewhere throughout humanity. So, we have all these different veiws on God now, because of humanity and its experiences through life. Thats all it is. The book is a consolidation of experiences and stories, that are believed as actual events or taken as some type of guide for God.

 

Now. Why would God need a guide? Well, Bob, He doesnt. He doesnt need anything. But, Biblically, God has a;ways tryed to commune with His creation in some type of way, though His actual presence has from the beginning never strived with us, humans. His spirit is to much, in His allness for us to handle.

 

So. Bob. God gave us this book that we use as a way to Him. Then, we started using this book as a tool of power and self righteousness on the outside. Then God put His spirit, in which is the substance of God, into a man named Jesus. That man provided another way to the Father God.

 

But, really Bob. I think you should start your own book about God and what He did wrong. Then all of creation would be ok, right Bob

 

So to recap, I still think one can believe in a spiritual life and a creator or universal mind but i think it goes way beyond the pithy arguments, doctrines and ridiculous creeds that us humans have dreamt up. It is essentially a non measurable, non verifiable thing from our standpoint.

 

Good answer Bob.

 

Christians unfortunately claim that they worship God and have a relationship with God but more often than not they actually have a relationship with a book, a creed or a church belief system. This explains why they are so closed to anyone elses viewpoint, are so certain of everything and are generally viewed with disdain by anyone who enjoys the free exchange of ideas.

 

In doing this they have created wars, intolerant organizations, repression, and of course have prosletyzed and brainwashed millions of people throughout history.

If your God was so great and forgiving and truly loved us all unconditionally then the Christian concept of eternal hell could not exist and neither would blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. These are the notions of barbaric peoples who watched gladiators being torn apart by lions and who stoned sinners for their offenses.

 

Again about the book, Bob.

 

Oh, by the way Yo Yo, I forgive you for swearing now go and sin no more...

 

Thank you Father.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

People being pricks and hypocrites did help push me away from Christianity. However, the reason I started questioning in the first palce was due to a different kind of people...the nice ones, the ones I love, my family. All of my family are non-Christian, all live good lives and are nice, loving people....yet Christianity says they're all going to hell because they don't happen to believe the right things. Yet Joe Bloggs murderer in the town prison will go to heaven because he accepted Jesus. This didn't seem right to me and at first sent me towards liberal Christianity and universalism but basically set the ball rolling for more questions.

 

yeah. Thats a tuff thing to handle, especially from family. Question? Do you think that the same God that sent Jesus, in the way he did; would send your folks to hell just because they are Non-Christian. Also, in what way are the family members disconnected from christ. Are they athiest? Are they skeptical, but go to church? Do they just not think about it much? Do they have there own concept of God and, right and wrong? The last question is really good.

 

If they have a concept of right and wrong, etc. doing good and whatnot; then biblically, they are witness that Biblically, God said he would write His law in our hearts, a new law.

 

The more questions I asked, the more confusing Christianity seemed to be. It no longer made much sense to me at all and I began questioning the existance of god. I eventually came to conclude that there is no god and the only reason I believed was because of familiarity and fear. Christianity was familiar...I was introduced to it at a young age during school, if I were made to sing/pray for another god/religion as a kid I'd have ended up believing that instead. And fear played a part in my need for Christianity...as an anxiety sufferer the idea of a god watching over me, protecting me, was comforting. In the end, I realised my belief was just fulfilling a need that I had but just because it did that didn't mean any of it was true.

 

I understand that idea of the situation, and the effect. It is confusing. Im still pointing things out to my ex wife that grew up in church. i do agree that the whole church atmosphere has its benefits and downfalls, more so downfalls unfortuniately. But, like any other religion; if you leave it in the hands of human beings, we will adjust purity into our own motives.

 

Fear in God is the beginning of wisdom. i strongly believe that, though there are different types of fear and its applications in life. Ex,. A father is stern, direct, and follows through with punishment for wrong behavior. He is feared in a sense of knowledge that he will react to his children. A father beats, curses, degrades, belittles, and mental bashes his children when they are wrong or right; this is another fear that would be very different from the first. Some effects, in respect to order, would be a life lived straight, good grades, great accomplishments, or even just normal; in loving there father because early fear; and a life lived by compensation for scared emotions, usually drugs, altered relationships full of doubt, possible many downfalls in which many people every day have been through as results of childhood abnormal behavior from there parent figure.

 

The key thing here is that even though some of this abused, bad feared based childhood people went through all that; many find a way to be successful, and relate to there children the total opposite way. The make it. Some dont. I believe that certain people come about in people lives that help, or hurt the situation.

[Abiyoyo]

 

You may honestly believe that. But you don't honestly know that.

 

That is the difference between you and I.

 

What about Peter? Do we know that Peter lived? If so; Was he insane and crazy with the millions of us today, too, because He spoke of a man named jesus?

 

 

What's your point? I was talking about knowledge that allows one to know the difference between knowing and believing. Not "surroundings" and "critisisms" or whatever.

 

 

I observe and absorb information, in conjunction with creditbility

 

 

This is a lie. You've been here how long now? Reread this comment in light of the nature of this thread, and you will see the lie.

 

 

 

So, because you are going to die, you believe in God. That, YoYo, is the weak foundation that most of us found ourselves standing on when we began to question.

 

I think the physical death of human beings is the reminder God gave us that He is God. i meam without death, we wouldnt even think about a higher being. I wouldnt. Maybe that sounds contrite, but it makes perfect sense. Everything lives and dies, everything.

 

That spider crawling on your wall is going to die, too. Do you think he ever contemplated the existence of a Higher Power ? Do you think he gives a crap about what the bible says?

 

The spider might care in its own language just as a female lion would protect its young from being hurt. Yet, we dont know that it cares or not because we cant ask it. Higher power. Maybe, if the spider could talk to other spiders that believed in a higher being. Hey!!! Remeber the donkey in the Bible, that told off that prophet. . I think if the spider has concurred with its other spiders family and they concluded, in spider language, that there is some type of higher power; then yes they probualy would care.

 

Funny you say that though. Because those crazy stories are Biblical pointings that God can communicate better with the animals than to His creation based around His image. He told the whale to swallow Jonah, and spit him out. The lions to not attack Daniel. The snake( I assume) not to inject poison into Paul. He even communicates to the sea and the wind, Biblically, and they listen. The raven to bring Ellijah food. (Ravens are very aggresive, self revolved creatures too, I might add)

 

 

 

Common sense tells me that this life is more than just being buried one day and someone singing Amazing grace at my funeral.

That isn't common sense, Yoyo. That's belief.

 

Yeap. Its great, huh.

 

YoYo,

 

Common sense doesn't tell you anything, it's what you want and what you hope for. You believe because you are afraid of death.

 

Thanks. Where do I send the check?

 

Actually, I used to be scared to death of death ; until I realized that death is just the border between here and there. I am scared to die now, and if I feel deathly; I think of the things that mean much to me, and then I get scared of not being there for mostly my daughter.

[OnceConvinced]

Secondly, the main issue as I see it with almost everyone on this site is not that they necessarily had a terrible time as a Christian , but that in the end they realized that they were being dishonest with themselves in continuing to advocate and believe in a religion that ultimately betrays its own tenents.

 

Yup. Pretty much the case for me. I loved the people I knew from church. My best friends were christians. I met mainly great people who were geniune in their beliefs. Some of my most fondest childhood memories were linked to church activities.

 

I think the being dishonest with myself thing is one of the biggest turn offs for me. I always felt that whenever I was involved in church or at a home group or prayer meeting that I had to set an example. (because I had been a christian so much longer than most people). And after a while I became disgusted with myself because it wasn't the real me and I was putting on a facade as a successful, faithful Christian, when I was really struggling with my faith. I was not seeing Christ at work in my life, I was not being blessed and I was not feeling his presence. People saw me as a natural leader, as a Christian with a lot of wisdom. But I certainly wasn't feeling that way. I began to realise that I probably wasn't alone feeling like that. I believe now most Christians put on a facade at church, because they're expected to act a certain way, otherwise they are seen as weak Christains and they don't want to look weak. So they play the game, which was what I was doing.

 

But before any Christian out there tries to say I was never a genuine Christian, that is furtherest from the truth. For close to 30 years my faith was mainly strong and I was really trying to please God, geniunely tring to be more spiritual and more in tune with God. It was only in the later years of my faith when I started to question a lot of things and started to become disillusioned with it all.

[Onyx]

I'd sooner go to hell rather than jesus and heaven if it was real.

[Guest Freestate]

Yo yo,

 

Three things.

Firstly my name is not Bob. Secondly, your arguments do not address the issue I was bringing up.

By the way. I used to be an assistant pastor, I think I know a thing or two about Chrisitianity.

 

I can assure you that if you think your bible which you base your beliefs on would encourage you to swear the way you do, you probably haven't read it. "Let no unwholesome thing come out of your mouth". It has nothing to do with defamation of character, although you have already done that by calling all the rest of the people on this site "bitches"

 

The main issue I was getting at is that the bible paints a picture of a God who is angry with his creation and requires a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins which was handled with Jesus' substituionary atonement. That idea is what I think most people here find repugnant.

 

The second idea that I think I can speak for everyone here on is the idea that a supposedly loving father would have an eternal hell created for sinners who do not believe in his blood sacrifice atonement theory and his god man son.

 

Perhaps last and not least is the fact that the bible was not fully compiled until 450 years after Christ at the council of Chalcedon and was done so to mirror a decision made in 325 AD at the council of Nicea. A council that was assembled at the behest of a Roman emperor so that he could have one religion and one creed to unify his empire. There were more than 10 different Christian factions at the time. SOme of them fighting bitterly in thestreets of Aexandria.

 

The end result is that one religion dominated and became what we know as Catholicism which later gave birth to Protestantism and all of its various factions. But I'm sure you know all of this right?

 

 

In case you hadn't noticed this is an exchristian site. I suspect after you have been here awhile and argued with everyone for a bit about your intolerant and self righteous ideas you will probably either end up swearing at some one or leave. Then again maybe the webmaster will tire of your ranting and raving and cut you off..

[Taphophilia]

Hey Freestate,

 

Welcome to the boards! I so much enjoy reading your posts. Hope to see more.

 

Taph

[Guest Freestate]

Hey guys,

thanks for the encouragement. Who is this Christian Yo Yo anyway. I thought I'd seen it all before with fundies but this guy takes the cake in hypocrisy. This guy is swearing like a trooper and trying to defend his fundamentalist stance!!! I wonder how far his foul mouth would get him in his own church. oh yeah I forgot, the Devil made him do it...

[Guest Freestate]

YoYo,

 

Before you try to lecture me, you had better walk in my shoes or I will rip your head off verbally. Nothing personal but to have gone through what I have gone through and make light of that, be warned. If your God wants me, he can heal my wife. Nothing less will do, not words from you or anyother Christian. Simple, actions speak louder than words.

 

 

Right on !! Someone said it. My sentiments exactly. I have an arthritic condition akin to that for the last ten years called AS or Ankylosing spondylitis. Basically fusion of the spine. The pain has been excruciating, the toll on my families and mines emotions , unbelievable. I literally had a Christian tell me that it was because I had "opened the door to an evil spirit" and that was why this was happenning. At the time I was still a believer and must have had over a dozen people pray for me at different times. Even went to a Catholic healing service. Nothing happened. According to just about everyone of these people, something I MUST be doing has caused this curse to happen to me. Just one more reason in a string of many that this religion is in need of being eradicated.Arrogant bastards the lot of them.

I totally feel for your plight and that of your wife and hope that our scientific understanding of these diseases enables us to cure them.