A few questions from a Christian (Not offensive)

[Ouroboros]

I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal here over calling oneself an agnostic...I don't believe in bible god anymore but I don't know that their isn't a creator(s)/higher power(s) etc. Maybe I'm still clinging for something, but who cares.  I'm not trying to get anyone to conform to agnosticism, nor trying to get anyone to follow rules, or another religion,  but for me...this is where I am at at this current point in time.  Whether or not I'm still here years from now, well, I don't know.  (pun intended)

 

There's not a conflict to be agnostic combined with theist, deist or atheist.

 

Agnostic is just the mindset how strong you are convinced of the belief you have.

 

Like me, I'm agnostic/atheist, so I don't believe there is a god, but I have a soft approach to it, that I could change my mind if enough evidence could convince me otherwise.

 

So call yourself agnostic, but I think it's good to add which side anyway, because I was taught today that you can only "believe" or "not-believe", undecided basically means that you are in the "not-believe" camp. So just agnostic is a form of atheist, unless you specify anything else.

[Mr. Neil]

I respectfully disagree.  I cannot say whether I believe in god until god is proven to exist.  Nor can I say I don't believe in god, because so far god's existence has not been completely ruled out.

So you don't believe something until you have knowledge?

 

You don't have to have knowledge to have belief or nonbelief. That's the whole point of belief is that you're accepting something without complete knowledge. In fact, that's what belief is.

 

Non-belief is simply the lack of belief. You clearly lack belief in God, as you've withheld such belief for lack of evidence.

 

 

I will not, however, base my belief or disbelief on blind faith or even blind un-faith.  I would rather base it on logic and scientific evidence than anything else.

I already demonstrated the difference between disbelief and nonbelief. Nonbelief is simply the lack of belief. Disbelief is when you believe against the existence of something. It's the former that is true of you, but not the latter.

 

 

If you simply withhold belief of God, then you are a non-believer. And if you are a non-believer, then you are an...?

 

 

 

I'm not playing semantics here. The prefixes in "disbelief" and "nonbelief" are not synonyms. They each have their own definition, which you'll find that I'm using correctly.

[Amethyst]

To me, being an atheist means you are very sure that there is no god. I'm not willing or ready to make that claim yet, but I respect your position.

 

From Wikipedia: "Agnosticism is the philosophical and theological view that spiritual truth, such as the existence of God, gods or deities, is either unknown or inherently unknowable. The term and the related agnostic were coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in 1869 and are also used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as other matters of religion."

 

This pretty much describes my position, hence I am agnostic.

[spamandham]

Why do many of you write Xians?  How can it be difficult to write a simple name.  Especially since many of you believe he did not exist or was not who he said he was? 

 

Is there a hositilty toward a single religion or religion in general? 

 

Since you asked these questions to atheists in general, I don't feel obligated to read the previous x pages before answering.

 

Personally, I don't use "xian". As I understand it, it was actually Christains who started the practice of using an X (a sideways cross) to represent Christ. It's a tacit admission that he's real and actually sacrificed himself (to himself?) on a cross, so I'm not sure why that would offend you.

 

Second, yes I'm hostile toward religion in general, and particularly toward Christianity. Why? Because those are the idiots in my face every day trying to use public funds to post their stupid 10 Commandments (of which only 4 are worth a crap), or to push creation "science" ignorance in public schools, or pushing for laws to keep me from getting drunk and chasing hookers sunday mornings, and knocking on my door sunday morning after I've been out drinking and carousing all night, etc.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks Han....I honestly thought agnostic was more an "I don't know" one way or the other and therefore I felt it appropriate.  Still not sure I can use atheist for my description yet, but like I wrote before...it's not to far a fetch for me to still be clinging for higher  power to believe in. Jim Lee posts a lot on exchristian.net and he has wise sayings that he gives to  people.  One thing he wrote to another in my circumstances was...."The only reason you still may believe in a higher power is because someone had at one time taught you that there is..." 

 

I believe he is right, but those words haven't sunk into my "heart" yet, so to speak.

 

Good, and to add to your confusion...

 

The term Agnostic literaly means "No Knowledge", but it represent the meaning "I/We can not know", and there's two variants of this: 1) "We can not know now, but maybe one day we will know", and the other 2) "We can not know now, and we will never know".

 

Basically it's the philosophical idea that knowledge of God can't be achieved through logic or reasoning, but it still allows us to "know" God through our emotions, we need to feel there is a God, therefore we feel there is a God.

 

Your belief in God doesn't have to come from teachings from someone else. You could have belief as a naturalist where your impression and understanding of God comes through nature and the sublime feeling it gives you. I went through a phase like that after my de-conversion, and I could fee a "oneness" with the universe and all living things around me. This is not same as pantheism. And in a way I'm still partly a naturalist, but at the same time I'm atheist.

 

Most of the founding fathers of America were naturalists or deists, and not Christians. And that's why they managed to confuse so many in this country, because you still can talk about God as a power, but he/it is Me (my awareness/soul) in conjuction with the nature.

[Ouroboros]

i heard the term "evolutionist" used somewhere on this thread.  What the fuck is an evolutionist?

 

Just for clarification, I want everyone to know I am a gravityist.  I support gravity.  i am PRO gravity.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I think I'll become a gravityist too. And have you noticed it's heavier every Monday morning getting out of bed, and everything else is heavier then too!

 

How can that be? Is the god of gravity especially hateful to Mondays?

 

And I will abreviate it to Gravist, unless some orthodox gravityist objects. And I won't do it to be spiteful or so, just it's shorter...

[Mr. Neil]

i heard the term "evolutionist" used somewhere on this thread.  What the fuck is an evolutionist?

A completely asinine fundy term founded on misrepresentations of various different fields of science, all shoehorned together because they all apparently oppose the biblical worldview. This would include cosmology (the field of physics dealing with string theory), astronomy (darn those starts that are billions of lightyears away!), abiogenesis (life from nonlife... poppycock!), and evilution (the theory that dogs can produce non-dogs, bananas, satyrs, and unicorns).

[Mr. Neil]

I was being funny. I had to make fun Hovind's banana fetish one more time.

[Ouroboros]

Gravist instead of gravityist...is like Xtian instead of Christian.  You take the christ out of christian and the gravity out of gravityist.  I'm afraid you are doomed to eternal floatation.

 

NOOOOO! Not the floatation punishment!!! I feel so bloated!!!!

[Ouroboros]

I was being funny.  I had to make fun Hovind's banana fetish one more time.

 

Well I'm glad that other peoples humor get get misunderstod too.

I thought it was only me that people didn't get...

 

[- AUB -]

Actually scientists are realising more and more that gravity is a pagan fantasy, and the obvious scientific truth is that Jesus just likes to toss everything together, which explains far more than warping of space time and similar nonsense. The Smithsonian has already sponsored a jesustossism film, and soon the old orthodoxy will fall and we can embrace the truth, that Jesus is a tosser.

 

www.answersinpornography.com

[Japedo]

and there is no excuse for that. But let's not forget that crimes have occured under atheism as well, as in Stalin's Russia

 

Nick

 

 

First let me welcome you to the forum Nick, Secondly let me clear up this misconception I have here in quotes.

 

Stalin, Didn't kill in the name of Atheism, he killed in the name of the State, and in the name of himself. He put himself on the same level as God. This is a huge misconception, while Stalin didn't worship any deity, he did want himself worshiped.

 

Hitler, was a Christian was raised Catholic, and also sided with the Martin Luther protestant, and killed in the name of his god.

 

 

Now that being aside, I encourage you to read many of the Anti-T's on this forum. You perhaps are shocked and horrified that someone could mock something you feel so sacred. The Dogma of Christianity is Dangerous, many of us escaped it however we are still traumatized by what we went thru. Some of us were raised by Zealots in a Zealot atmosphere, Breaking free of Lies, and Fear is a Huge deal. Many of us want Justice or Payback for what we went thru. If you truly want to get into minds of people effected by this dangerous cult I honestly urge you to read the Anti-T's in the Testimonies of Former Christians Forum. Again, Welcome to the forum and I look forward to having a civil debate.

[phoenix]

Oh, get the hell off your hobby horse already, dude.  You've demonstrated yourself to be **at least** incapable of nuanced discussion, clueless, and utterly uninterested in the answers to the questions you ask.

 

X is an abbreviation for Christ.  MANY of us here were pastors, ministers, Christian teachers, theologians, and/or in the company of such people regularly while we were in the faith.  A good number of us are also history students and speek/read Koine Greek.  X is an abbreviation used by your own church fathers and leaders for the last thousand years.

 

How DARE you waltz in here with your under-studied scholastic arrogance and presume upon the motives of people you don't know to the point of making unilateral pronouncements on their grammatical nomenclature because it *happens* to strike you as disrespectful?!

 

You sir, are a class-A dip shit.

 

-Lokmer

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i think i love you, lokmer.

[Mythra]

If I may defer to the previous page's discussions about titles (sorry, but I have to get my beauty sleep at night)

 

And I apologize for being so illiterate (maybe someone can recommend a good "Atheism for Dummies" book?) but,

 

If I say:

 

1. There are no gods that I believe in. All religions are BS

2. I cannot say beyond all doubt that there is no God. (how could one know, really?)

3. I deny that any soul or personality survives physical death.

 

What does that make me? Agnostic? Atheist? Athgnostic?

 

 

Also, I cannot comprehend an atheist who says that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that could cause him to believe in God. Sounds asinine to me.

I didn't know you could be a dogmatic atheist.

 

Sorry, CK, didn't mean to hijack ya.

[Kay]

How DARE you waltz in here with your under-studied scholastic arrogance and presume upon the motives of people you don't know to the point of making unilateral pronouncements on their grammatical nomenclature because it *happens* to strike you as disrespectful?!

 

I said nothing like this; in fact, I bent over backwards trying to say I wasn't going to start a fight or anything like that.

 

......

 

I don't think its a form of abbreviation. I think it's a form of disrespect. WHICH IS OKAY considering this is an ex-christian site. But don't be afraid to admit it. I don't care either way.

 

lol...the point is, it is not for an abbreviation. That's all. And countless times, I have said, this is an ex-christian site, its okay if you do it! I don't care

 

Enlighten me as to how that related to anything but dis-respect?

And I don't care if you do that.  This is an ex-christian website.  So I would expect it.

 

 

"Doctor, doctor! Quick! We have a bad case of foot in mouth!"

 

[spamandham]

Mythra, I'd say you are agnostic, because your jury is still kind of out on the God issue.  Or if you lean more towards there not being a God, you are probably a weak atheist.

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This is the problem with the word "agnostic". People take it to mean "the jury is still out", when in reality it's usually nothing more than an admission that god is defined in such a way that nothing can be proven. It's a statement about what is knowable, not belief.

 

In reality, "god" is a nebulous term that means something different to everyone who uses it. You have to pin down what it means before you can assess whether its existence is possible.

 

God has been put on trial for existence. No compelling evidence was submitted, so the jury returned a verdict of "not guilty". Does that mean absolutely that he is innocent of existing? No, but the burdon of proof is on the accusers.

[Ouroboros]

This is the problem with the word "agnostic".  People take it to mean "the jury is still out", when in reality it's usually nothing more than an admission that god is defined in such a way that nothing can be proven.  It's a statement about what is knowable, not belief.

 

In reality, "god" is a nebulous term that means something different to everyone who uses it.  You have to pin down what it means before you can assess whether its existence is possible.

 

God has been put on trial for existence.  No compelling evidence was submitted, so the jury returned a verdict of "not guilty".  Does that mean absolutely that he is innocent of existing?  No, but the burdon of proof is on the accusers.

 

Right. The word agnostic doesn't have to do with what you believe.

 

Theist, Deist, Naturalist, Atheist are words to describe your belief.

 

Agnostic only means that you have doubts, and keep an open mind.

 

So you can be Agnostic/Theist, Agnostic/Deist, Agnostic/Naturalist, Agnostic/Atheist, and the same goes for Pagan, Wiccan and so on.

 

Actually I think everyone is Agnostic, except for fundies.

 

I use it, because it's usually an easier term for people to hear when they ask what you believe. It's like a door opener. "What's that?" is the question and I just take it from there and I can discuss with them. When I say Atheist, they immediately start arguing that "God must exist, and so so so", with "Agnostic", I'm the one in control of the conversation.

[Ouroboros]

Actually scientists are realising more and more that gravity is a pagan fantasy, and the obvious scientific truth is that Jesus just likes to toss everything together, which explains far more than warping of space time and similar nonsense. The Smithsonian has already sponsored a jesustossism film, and soon the old orthodoxy will fall and we can embrace the truth, that Jesus is a tosser.

 

www.answersinpornography.com

 

Well, we know from the debate with Intelligent Design people that Gravity is only a theory, so it can't be trusted anyway.

 

The alternative Intelligent Body Attraction Theory will soon be in schools parallel with Gravity Theory.

 

The IBAT is sometimes wrongly called the Divine Super Glue Theory also, but they differ in a very important aspect. The DSGT state that there is a superflux ether medium that God uses to glue us to earth, while IBAT states it's by love - "our love to stay grounded and our love for earth keeps us from falling into space".

 

[edit - and edit again - stupid English ... cannt speell riightt]

My avatar is the picture of Guthma (the inventor of DSGT) when he wanted to prove the theory. Unfortunately it was the last thing he did, and he can't tell us the results. But the proof to IBAT and DSGT is still out there.

[Lilith]

i think i love you, lokmer. 

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You can't love Lokmer. He's mine.

 

Oh what the hell....I'll share.

[Amethyst]

Agnostic only means that you have doubts, and keep an open mind.

 

That's one definition.

 

Actually I think everyone is Agnostic, except for fundies.

Well, the vast majority of Christians I know are able to admit that they aren't sure whether God exists, but they keep going to church because most of the social support. My dad is like that. He's not willing to admit he's agnostic, though. I think it's because my stepmom is very Catholic.

 

When I say Atheist, they immediately start arguing that "God must exist, and so so so", with "Agnostic", I'm the one in control of the conversation.

 

I agree. I've noticed that if I tell someone I'm not agnostic, they usually reply with "At least you're not an atheist."

 

And I'm like, so if I was, would you hate me or something? Jeez.

 

There's way too much discrimination in American society against nonbelievers right now. I think that more people would be willing to admit that they were agnostic or atheist if American society emphasized religion less.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I like your poem, HanSolo.

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Me too! I'll have to see if I can get Hans real name so I can use it as a sig!