Slamming the Christians

[Cerise]

Lokmer I learn a lot from you and what you have to say.  Especially what you said earlier about the believer and hell and how If they truly believe in hell and biblegod that decrying god only hurts more people and is ultimately selfish.

 

It's like if you are in a bank robbery situation.  Sure, it's immoral for the bank robbers to take the money...but if you get up and try to be a hero you could get someone shot.  Sometime's it's best to go with what the bad guy says for your safety and protection.  Unfortunately it's a further bit of cognitive dissonance that the christian who believes in a literal hell is also obligated to believe their god is good.  But yes, I see your point there and had never really looked at it from that angle before.  Its much easier for us to be all selfish and righteous about how evil biblegod is since we don't believe in him.  In a real world situation in which we did though the situation might be quite different.

 

Except a more apt metaphor might be if the bank robber started killing people already. If you get up and try to be a hero you might get shot yourself. But that guy in corner with his hands tied will most certainly get the bullet regardless. Do you still stand up? Do you say, "don't shoot him, it's not right"?

 

And is that selfish?

 

As for TAP fighting her own battles.  Sure, she can do that.  And I'm not one of the "TAP asskissers"  I consider TAP a friend and I stand by my friends when I feel like people have gone a little whacky on the insano meter.  It has nothing to do with her beliefs, and it has nothing to do with asskissing, I would come to the defense of anyone I considered a friend if they were being ganged up on.  And TAP is far outnumbered here.  She may have a lot of friends here, but it doesn't change the fact that in the end a lot of people are going to stick to their "worldview" and "opinions" rather than reach a hand of friendship across the bridge.

 

I just think there is a time to back off...fuck let TAP process stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She has all the time in the world. She's had all the time in the world.

[Ouroboros]

I just think there is a time to back off...fuck let TAP process stuff.

 

Soooo, when can we see a TAP-dance? ..... sorry, lame joke alert!!!

[Cerise]

I don';t know what the hell you did.  I'm sure you were bored shitless

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I most certainly was. No shit.

[Totallyatpeace]

oh and TAP...you did miss one of cerise's questions...she asked if you would give up your salvation for someone else's.  Just keepin ya honest

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would give up my life for someone else's if I felt it was necessary.

[Cerise]

I would give up my life for someone else's if I felt it was necessary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very admirable, but totally not what I asked.

[Ouroboros]

I would give up my life for someone else's if I felt it was necessary.

Actually the question is tougher than that.

 

Would you give you your place in heaven and go to hell, in replacement for someone else?

[Totallyatpeace]

Actually the question is tougher than that.

 

Would you give you your place in heaven and go to hell, in replacement for someone else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. And the reason is because they had the same invitation and turned it down.

[Cerise]

No. And the reason is because they had the same invitation and turned it down.

 

I would gladly go to hell, if my children or any of my loved ones could go to heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

hmm...

 

interesting.

[Ouroboros]

Me and my family has already been in Hell. But we were still here on earth when it happened. And I wanted (and still want) to switch place with my son.

[Totallyatpeace]

You didn't ask me about giving up my life......you said salvation.

 

Not the same.

[Cerise]

You didn't ask me about giving up my life......you said salvation.

 

Not the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's right. And wasn't thankful talking about giving up her salvation as well? That's what I took "I would gladly go to hell" to mean.

[dogmatically_challenged]

lokmer

If that was the case, Doggie, all religions would have collapsed years ago.  Are you really this naive`?

Wrong lokmer. Wrong. I have changed minds by pointing out the flaws in the bible in RT were its harder to dodge.But I consentrate on luke warm christians and nonchristians. There are more than you think in this country. And how naive are you old man? How long has it been acceptable to critizice the bible? You live a sheltred life old man. You are so comfy you forget your past.The whole world isn't acedamia. acedamia has no balls really that I can see otherwise the best arguments against the bible would be easily accessable to lay people.

 

You have much knowlege lokmer. But your awfuly stingy with it here.I wonder why? If everyone had your knowlege then more people would be equipped to point out how rediculous the notion is of a godinspred book. I am attacking thier method which is the bible. And many different kinds of dogmas come from it. But the bible is the method regardless of dogma and that book is not consistent. Giving that book power through belief in it is giving others the same power. Belief that that book is the word of god gives that book power that all share.

 

lokjaw

There is a large difference between pointing out moral contradictions or problems and attacking believers personally.  But you're not even doing the first well - you're not referencing the Bible in any kind of context that's fair to it as a ancient literary work.  It's worse than the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, which at least has the virtue of being entertaining.

Why don't you just change your title to apologist lokmer? You are awfly dodgy here old man. If you want to take it to the one on one moderated thats fine with me.I'll rub your nose right in your fallacious thinking. The bible deems certain people as evil and anyone who agrees with that book that certain people are evil and deserve punnishment are also bigots so long as they agrree with scripture without being open minded to being wrong. Thats what a bigot is. Did you even read what I posted oldman? And as far as not quoting scripture if you read back Tap new exactly what scriptures I was talking about

 

QUOTE(Totallyatpeace @ Jun 19 2005, 09:31 PM)

However, I try very hard to be aware of the feelings of others so don't expect me to condemn somebody here because of my beliefs. It will never happen.

So put that in you crackpipe and smoke it lokmer. I will not let you rest on rep of having degrees. degrees and excellent writing abilty don't guarantee honesty old man. Nice try.

I was willing to be corrected and I was honestly pointing out what I see as a problem. But I lost it with the ad homs lokmer. Refute point for point what I posted earlier lokmer you sandbagger. One on one. I will rub your snobbish nose in every fallacious statement you put to me you fucking apologist. You can't hide behind your degrees. Not with me old man. You and merlin wanted to get nasy well I can be nasty too. You are playing with words not me you old apologist. Bigotry is bigotry if you support certain scripture and Tap knew what scripture I was talking about as you can see from what she wrote. It does not matter if she does not act negatively towards others so long as she agrees with bigoted scripture. She is close mindedly holding to her belief in all scripture without question, and that is bigotry. And lokmer you shove your ancient literary work right up your old wrinkly ass. Not everyone is a bible scholar and even your hovindish dodges can not refute the fact that the bible is bigoted in certain places. Moderated debate you chicken shit. And since we are truth seekers I guess you won't mind if I have the help of a few other heathens so that you can go against the best arguments. Right old man? I mean after all you are bullet proof with your degrees right mr apologist?

 

lokjaw

Doggie, were you ever a Christian? Were you ever religious at all? Your entire approach to Christianity is stilted, naive`, and stupid. Now, when it comes to the dogma, I am as anti-religious and anti-Christian as Ingersol. But that's where it stops. I am not hostile to the Bible as a book, nor to Christians as a group or as individuals.

I ignored thier dogmas, but the bigotry was hard to ignor. Still my understanding of the bible is mine and not all of thier understanding. I was raised pentecostal and my relatives who lived close by were Southern Baptists. There was a lot of arguing of religion. So I go by my understanding of the bible. Many kinds of beliefs come from that book. Why don't you break down how loving and nonbigoted that book is in another thread Mr. apologist? Lets see if you sand bagg against scripture that I give.

You know half the problem with that book is that not everyone is a bible scholar, even some pastors and that is what makes that book dangerous as a method for morality. You live a pretty shelted life old man. Perhaps you forget how things were when you were younger before you got for yourself a comfortable living. Acedamia aint the real world lokmer. Colleges and universities are a church of thier own. Mr PC religionist.

 

lokjaw

I have some inkling of the diversity of opinionns, beliefs, and attitudes in the vast and sprawling church, and I also understand the different things people mean when they say they have "faith." In many cases, it means "habitual, unexamined allegience." For others, it means they've had an experience of encounter with the profound or divine through the Christian tradition, and hence they reverence it. For others still it means "working out" their salvation with acts of charity, love, and grace. And for yet others "faith" means simply surrendering to the possibility that salvation and eternal life might be more than a pipe dream. And again, for some it simply means "gratitude for what is" and an attitude of affectability. All of these gradations of meaning don't have a hell of a lot to do with fideism to the doctrines of shepherders and ecstatics living in the milenia past. For the vast majority of Christians, you can debunk the book, debunk the doctrine, and it won't effect their faith. They can *know* that it's propisitionally false, and yet find in it a metaphorical framework that fits and gives order to their spiritual experience.

Stop with your bullshitting and sanbagging old man and stop hiding behind your supposed expertese you old apologist. I said that so long as they hold all scripture in that book to be the word of god they are giving that book power. This is basic. And it does not matter how they interpret it. Some favor certain scriptures over others, and there is biggoted scripture in that book. That book has power because they all support it regardless of what they pick and choose.Moderated thread anytime and any place lokmer. I have the feeling you will just run and hide like the other apologists here. You have a degree and your struggling with the word bigot? You are a PC Liberal acedemic religionist aint ya. Stop bullshitting as this is were freethinkers habitate. I am talking about changing the minds of nonchristians as well as "kinda" christians. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Are you a doddering old senile fart?

 

lokjaw

And you believe that running around, hurling insults, and generally being a striped asshole will accomplish that goal? You have chosen your avatar well - it reflects the sophistocation of your understanding of human nature perfectly.

What I said about bigotry still stands you chicken shit. Now I asked to be corrected and did not ask for ad homs, but its too late now as you and merlin have already pissed me off. I am usually a nice guy but in this case fuck you you old fart. Refute my earlier post were i breal it down that supporting biggoted scripture without any exceptions is bigotry. Stop hiding behind your rep. I will not tolerate your dodges just because you have degrees. Got it? I'll tell you what. I'll redo everything with scripture to back it up and adding in the dictionary defininition and you can try to refute it. The result will be the same old man. You will have nothing reasonable to refute it and you know it.

[dogmatically_challenged]

lokjaw

You're not spreading freethought, Doggie, you're spreading hatred, vitriol, and blind loathing. It's very possible to be rehtorically fierce and intellectually relentless without being a Klansman. Ingersol, Twain, Heinlein, Straczyinski, Kurtz, Voltaire, Hobbes, Camus...our history is filled with excellent oraters and philosophers attacking Christianity in eloquent, persuasive ways that keep the attacks where they belong: On the church and on its doctrine.

You are so dishonest lokmer. You are hovindish beyond hovindish. What a strawman you make here. There is nothing sinnister with pointing out bigorty you PC religionist. Fuck you.

You don't have a clue as to what freethought is because you expect us all to just dogmatically swallow your bullshit. You never matched me point for point in my post were I was clarifing what I said in another thread. And you are obviously struggling with what the word bigot means because you are blinded by you PC religion that you were spoon fed in university.

Did I say Tap was hateful. Hatefulness is not a necassary component of bigotry you old sandbagger. Back in the days when blacks had fewer rights there was still soft and hard bigotry. If you and merlin were willing to work with me instead of hurling ad homs this never would have esculated. I was willing to be corrected. But you never rufuted my earlirt post and your attacks on my character are unsubstanciated. Reread the whole thread. And as far as my methods I have already shown you that Tap new that there is biggoted scriptures. She knew what I was refering to and I quoted her here in this post. So stop with the hovindish tactics allready old man.

 

lokjaw

You're using shame, insult, and hatred to try to make people free?

 

You're as bad as "the fundies."

 

Now who's the fucking bigot?

Stop with the apologetics you fucking PC religionist. Stop your fucking bullshitting and get real. What I posted still stands as I see no matiching me point for point from the post we are talkning about. Stop with the naked assertions you senile old fart. You like ad homs well right back at ya.

 

lokjaw

Perhaps you should leave the educating to people who actually know the field and are qualified to do so?

Good idea lokmer. I know damn well you have knowlege we can use. When are you going to get off your fat ass and do something. Why don't you train people? Probably you would rather just be an apologist. And your attitude here is damning proof that you are struggling with what freethought means. Freethought is not just blindly following an authority without question. Stop it. That shit don't fly with freethinkers. Stop being lazy and start refuting me buster.

 

lokjaw

While I agree, it's manifestly clear that you have zero understanding of human nature or sociology. If you truly believed that education and freedom of thought was the way to reduce Chritainity's negative effect on society, and to make fewer Christians, you would be opening and engaging in dialogue rather than getting your jollies off by attacking people. This has the taste of being more about revenge than about honesty and dialogue. Your lack of confidence in your own position is betrayed by your bluster.

Now here is true example of building a straw man you fucking apologist. PC bullshitter.What lokmer? Your a fucking mind reader now? I guess your PC indoctrination also gave you super powers to huh. I was blunt and did not enjoy what I said. Reread the thread. Before the ad homs started I was willing to work together on this with anyone. But merlin is a chicken shit just like you are. I have changed minds in RT. Thats fewer christians in my area. I am limited but I plan on Freethought becoming a virus that spreads in my area. Sorry but from my experience so far what I am doing is working. You have an awfully bad reading comprehension problem for a man with degrees.

 

lokjaw

Sign me up for the gulag, fucknugget. I don't fall into the trap of seeing the Bible as one book. And I refuse to condemn "love your neighbor" right alongside "keep the virgins for yourselves.

Nice straw man you chicken shit. Reread the thread and stop pretending you have psychic powers you old fucker. You want to get nasty. Well I can get just as onery. Read my posts in this forum and see if I am as hateful as you pretend that I am. Mr " While I agree, it's manifestly clear that you have zero understanding of human nature or sociology. " If you yourself have these skills you have failed in using them with me you hypocrite. Fuck you!

 

lokjaw

And here it is - it IS about personal revenge. I got news for you, buddy, I have experienced as bad or worse at the hands of Christianity than you have. I have witnessed rape (twice, eyewitness) covered up by the church. I have been privy to a contract murder called in by a Chiristian college president. I have seen embezzlement, blackmail, child molestation, theft, con games, lying, cult worship of a leader, lives totally destroyed, brainwashing, gay bashing, terrorism advocation, and white supremacy, all up close and personal. And I have helped people out of shit you don't even want to begin to imagine. I have far more reason to take revenge than you do

Lokmer you build another strawman. You are even easier to refute than merlin. Are you a fucking mind reader lokmer? Did your University indoctrinate psychic powers right along with the PC religion? Shut the fuck up you apologist. I am talking about scripture that condems homosexuals and atheist as well as people of other faiths. Fuck you hovind! You can not show any revenge unless you have psychic powers. Fuck you!

 

lokjaw

You do not stop "shit" by employing the tactics (even in small measure) that were employed against you. Your approach is hateful and contemptible, myopic in conception, and lacking in honor

No you fucking PC religionist, it is you who lack any honor as I have made it clear that I can be corrected by anyone. I was willing to work with people who disagree in debate. You never gave me the benefit of doubt and you are sloppily buliding strawmen and are being dishonest on what the word bigot means. The dictionary never mentioned hatred it mentioned beliefs. So fuck you you PC apologist.

[Totallyatpeace]

That aint the way it works, Zoe. And mind games don't work with me.

[Lokmer]

D_C, that's the funniest thing I've read in months...

 

And here I thought you had no sense of humor!

Thanks!

-Lokmer

[dogmatically_challenged]

 

D_C, that's the funniest thing I've read in months...

 

 

And here I thought you had no sense of humor!

Thanks!

-Lokmer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nive dodge lokmer. That all you can do is hide? If you apologize to me for the adhoms I'll also appolgize for mine. I was being honest in everything thing I said.

 

I'll even start over and work with you so long as you spare me the ad homs. I can be corrected as I've said before. You say you have people skilles? You have failed with me. The reason I'm so angry is you are supposed to support ExChristians. If I am wrong in what I did you could have showed me without the ad homs. I know damn well I can be wrong, but right now I just cant see it. I was willing to work with people here.

 

Stop dodging if you really care that I am in error. You gonna leave me to my ignorance? I am not a hateful person like you painted me to be.

 

The differencebetween you and me is I can drop adoms and stick around to take the heat that comes and even change my mind. You just drop ad homs and run.

 

I am young and harded sometimes. But who is the adult here lokmer? Change my mind but don't drop ad homs

let me ask questions and don't punnish me for telling you what I think.

[Cerise]

That aint the way it works, Zoe. And mind games don't work with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whether or not that's "the way it works" is kind of irrelevant. If it could work that way, then the question is 'what would you do'?

 

I think I would give up salvation for my brother. I know my mother would give up her salvation for me. It's a valid response. Just as valid as yours.

[Totallyatpeace]

Hypothetical?

 

 

I would switch places........

[Ouroboros]

New Avatar! Who's that?

[Totallyatpeace]

From Gladiator........

[Caretaker]

ok how come i can't see TAP's new avatar.  I only see the other one kindof squished and blurry.

You have the old one in cache. Open the image in browser all by itself, then Refresh/Reload

[Ouroboros]

ok how come i can't see TAP's new avatar.  I only see the other one kindof squished and blurry.

Hmmm. Get new glasses? Or better monitor...

[Ouroboros]

so i need special "tap's avatar glasses"  cause yours looks just fine.  as does mine.  mine looks REALLY fine.  *drools*

Mine kick butt. Kick his own butt, actually...

 

You need to TAP-dance to activate the secret and magic door to see her avatar!

[Loren]

If that was the case, Doggie, all religions would have collapsed years ago. Are you really this naive`?

***

Doggie, were you ever a Christian? Were you ever religious at all? Your entire approach to Christianity is stilted, naive`, and stupid.

***

There is a large difference between pointing out moral contradictions or problems and attacking believers personally.

***

And you believe that running around, hurling insults, and generally being a striped asshole will accomplish that goal? You have chosen your avatar well - it reflects the sophistocation of your understanding of human nature perfectly.

***

You're not spreading freethought, Doggie, you're spreading hatred, vitriol, and blind loathing.

***

It's very possible to be rehtorically fierce and intellectually relentless without being a Klansman.

***

You're using shame, insult, and hatred to try to make people free?

***

You're as bad as "the fundies."

Now who's the fucking bigot?

***

Perhaps you should leave the educating to people who actually know the field and are qualified to do so?

***

While I agree, it's manifestly clear that you have zero understanding of human nature or sociology.

***

Your lack of confidence in your own position is betrayed by your bluster.

***

Sign me up for the gulag, fucknugget.

***

Your approach is hateful and contemptible, myopic in conception, and lacking in honor.

***

High and mighty bigotry and hypocricy piss me off, and even moreso when comign from someone who is on "my side."

***

Hatred is beneath us apostates, particularly since many of us were infuriated by the hatefulness disguising itself as love and caring in the church. What D_C is doing is the same kind of superior consdescention, coating self-righteousness and revenge in the cloak of goodness and caring, that we all hated from the church as Christians and now as apostates. Should we tolerate it simply because we feel his pain? Or is there some behavior for which there is no excuse?

***

A shame, you're rather an intelligent and mature person otherwise. But, you're right, it's easier to pull down people who are attempting to do something productive than it is to be productive oneself.

Lokmer, I'm completely ashamed of you! Your treatment of DC has been absolutely vile and thoroughly hypocritical!

 

Your intellectual integrity is in the sewer. Your moral integrity is in the sewer. Your social integrity is in the sewer. With vast condescencion, you even told one of our members to use a mirror, when it's you who clearly needs one the most!

 

I completely agree with the points DC made. But even if I didn't agree with him, I still felt that he made those points in a completely courteous manner and saw that he never did the hateful things of which you hatefully accused him. You should be sitting at his feet learning. His integrity has left yours in the dust.

 

Your behavior has been revolting, and it's you who are completely lacking in honor here.

 

... And finally, just for the amusement a good juxtaposition can provide:

It's about civility and decency. You know, those things that make civilization and social order possible?

 

 

Loren

[Lokmer]

Loren,

 

I went too far, got carried away and did not spend the time thinking about my posts that I normally would or otherwise should, and there's no excuse for it. It's proper and right to call me on it. I've been working on a reply to D_C's thread directed particularly at me since last night and it'll be ready later today.

 

But this:

Lokmer, I'm completely ashamed of you! Your treatment of DC has been absolutely vile and thoroughly hypocritical!

 

Your intellectual integrity is in the sewer. Your moral integrity is in the sewer. Your social integrity is in the sewer. With vast condescencion, you even told one of our members to use a mirror, when it's you who clearly needs one the most!

 

I completely agree with the points DC made. But even if I didn't agree with him, I still felt that he made those points in a completely courteous manner and saw that he never did the hateful things of which you hatefully accused him. You should be sitting at his feet learning. His integrity has left yours in the dust.

 

Your behavior has been revolting, and it's you who are completely lacking in honor here.

 

This is a hell of a thing to say. It's also desperately hypcritical of you, who has always cheered on Rameus and Chef and other people who employ far more abusive attacks against Christians from time to time. My axe that I grind here has not changed one whit in the last several months that I've been grinding it: I have no truck with bullies. Here I crossed way over the line of making that point and became what I had beheld. But I have at least the moral consistancy at fighting for the attacking of *positions* and not *people.* I to have, to my shame, privately enjoyed the abusive tactics employed by others from time to time, particularly in singular debate. But I have always tried to intervene when I have been unable to ignore the hurling of groupthink prejudicial insults. Even in this occasion, where I was inexcusably mean to D_C, I did not resort to group-insult tactics, I took him apart with his own words. I was not down on atheists, agnostics, apostates, I *AM* one. And, where some people are content to ignore the evils done in the name of their own camp but be harshly critical of outsiders, I prefer to be critical of what represents the views I hold dear.

 

I don't even know what else to say here, Loren. But you, who will happily delight in the derision of a person based on the beliefs of others in their religion, are not in a morally clean position here either. Cerise gave me a good mirror last night, one I have been looking in carefully. But you have become what you beheld every inch as much as I did.

 

D_C, you'll have my apology on your thread tonight.

-Lokmer