scotter Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Quote Reach: >>>I understand where you are coming from and I want to restate that we have every right to evangelize and I will continue to do so, regardless of whether others understand our reasons or not.<<< My two cents: It is said that Evangelism is allowed on Debate with Christian board. This is the rule of the game. Although being a theist, speaking from my heart, I believe in fair treatment. So if Christians are allowed to evangelize, Ex-Christians, Atheist and others are also allowed to devangelize. <- don’t look it up in the Dictionary! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 It is said that Evangelism is allowed on Debate with Christian board. This is the rule of the game. Although being a theist, speaking from my heart, I believe in fair treatment. So if Christians are allowed to evangelize, Ex-Christians, Atheist and others are also allowed to devangelize. <- don’t look it up in the Dictionary! That was the my point, exactly. Thanks for seeing it, Scotter! Everyone is free to evangelize (or de-evangelize, if you prefer that term) here in Debates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks for saying clarifying this reach. I'm glad my title is not something that will get me in trouble. Sociaty has us brainwashed that religion should not be criticized. Even here that meme is stuck in my mind. Isnt that silly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Wow, Reach. Your list of atrocities was amazing. I guess it's true that "by their fruits you shall know them". You know, this thread is about slamming the christians. I read some of my posts and I think, damn. What a jerk. It's not really who I am. I think it's just an reaction of resentment and bitterness towards a religion that has really messed me up for 25 long years. So, when someone starts shoving it back in my face, I retaliate. So, for anyone I slammed here unjustly, I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I have no clue of who you could possibly have offended Mythra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Oh, I slammed on Amanda (although I still don't think she should misrepresent herself here). I probably have contributed to the quick exit of college kid and aaryn. And I got in yo yo's face too. Sometimes it's just a knee-jerk reaction, but once you post something here, you're stuck with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks, thankful. I've been starting to think I was getting too offensive here. I think maybe what brought this home for me was reading AUB's response to YoYo on the "Myth" thread. I mean, AUB just devastates everything yo yo said, and he gets a little bit personal, but it doesn't seem overly insulting. I need to learn that art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhatIsTruth9 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I have to preface this commentary by saying that I am totally understand that everyone has a right to vent. Everyone here has been hurt by religion in one way or another. Here's what concerns me though. It's perfectly alright to vent, and get those negative things off your chest that you're thinking, as long as it's in a contained venue where you aren't causing anyone any harm. Unfortunately many people here are very raw and out right cruel to many Christians on this site. Yes, they set themselves up for it. Yes, they usually say something that touches a sore spot or is considered disrespectful to those who've gone the Bible B.S. YES, its usually well earned. But does that make it right though? All someone is doing when they lash out, in a negative, harmful tone towards someone is perpetuating the cycle of pain. You reinforce the negative. Causing harm towards those who are either seeking answer but don't know how to questions, are seeking the answer in the subconscious and really aren't even aware of it yet, and hurting people who are seeking answers on a very sensitive subject. Using negative tactics (mocking, dripping sarcasm, callousness, uncaringness, etc.) you perpetuate the myth that ex-Christians are a bunch of cold, mean spirited, bloodthirsty assholes who will sooner look out for themselves than someone else. Secondly, you make it easy for Christians to stay in the fold. Thusly, you make your life harder by keeping more Christians right where they are. Why would they want to listen to or join a bunch of bitter, angry, mean spirited jerks (not that ex-Christians are, but that's the message you send out when doing this). Finally, being negative and hurtful in your remarks is a security blanket. It keeps you being exactly what you didn't want to be when you were a Christian- close-minded. Not to the same degree, but think about it. If you're being negative, you're not listening to the core of what someone is saying. And by being negative you not only limit & hurt your own self esteem, you The fact is behind every attack someone launches, behind every remark that could be called stupid, callous, or disrespectful, is a person who is searching for the truth. And even more than you, they are afraid (as fear is the primary motivating factor of Christianity), and they are insecure. The most brazen of fundamentalists are usually the ones with the most fear in their lives. They're so scared that they're driven to extreme lengths to prove otherwise. If someone is bringing forth the same questions or giving the same answers that you've heard a thousand times before, they obviously haven't learned the truth yet. Should they be scorned for that? Would you have appreciated, when you didn't know or were still a Christian someone mocking, belittling, or coldly slamming you for being a blind idiot? Please consider the next time you're thinking of slamming on someone that there is a feeling person on the other side of that text who is looking for something; be it answers, support, or guidance. Everyone is here for a reason, and its up to you to make that experience a positive one. Peace <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So when these jackasses start giving me their load of crap and telling me stuff like "well you're going to hell because you won't forgive you ex" or "You can't be a good person and be bisexual"....And in one case start following me down the damn street just to yell more crapola at me.... I don't fucking think so. If I'm lashing out then obviously they did something to get me to lash out, and I'm a little sick of trying to be nice to these people and just pat them on the head and say "No little boy/girl...I don't want to hear about your god". There's no security blanket about it. Its quite simple, if you give me jack I'm going to give you jack in the first place. Its telling it like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 So when these jackasses start giving me their load of crap and telling me stuff like "well you're going to hell because you won't forgive you ex" or "You can't be a good person and be bisexual"....And in one case start following me down the damn street just to yell more crapola at me.... I don't fucking think so. If I'm lashing out then obviously they did something to get me to lash out, and I'm a little sick of trying to be nice to these people and just pat them on the head and say "No little boy/girl...I don't want to hear about your god". There's no security blanket about it. Its quite simple, if you give me jack I'm going to give you jack in the first place. Its telling it like it is. The best way to have a discussion is start in polite manners, and expect the opponent to do the same. Of course when someone starts lashing out at you, I don’t see a problem to serve it back, as hot and hard as possible. I don’t spare my punch if the chance is given, but I do hold the opinion that I should not be the one who started it. Some of the Christians are so because of culture and their family, and they come to the site to learn and understand, and I think we have the right and duty to explain to them so well that they start questioning their religion. And we can do it in a good way. But when it comes to dementors like Invictus, I think we should pour it hard on top of him with salt and vinegar. He doesn’t deserve kiddy gloves or mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhatIsTruth9 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 The best way to have a discussion is start in polite manners, and expect the opponent to do the same. Of course when someone starts lashing out at you, I don’t see a problem to serve it back, as hot and hard as possible. I don’t spare my punch if the chance is given, but I do hold the opinion that I should not be the one who started it. Some of the Christians are so because of culture and their family, and they come to the site to learn and understand, and I think we have the right and duty to explain to them so well that they start questioning their religion. And we can do it in a good way. But when it comes to dementors like Invictus, I think we should pour it hard on top of him with salt and vinegar. He doesn’t deserve kiddy gloves or mercy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your post is so true. I didn't mean to sound as if we should just go around screaming at all the Christians who come here. I know some of them actually do want to learn, and that sometimes they where brought up a certain way and told certain things and to a point don't know better. I guess this whole topic has just brought up some nasty memories for me.... And who pray tell is Mr/Mrs Invictus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Your post is so true. I didn't now mean to sound as if we should just go around screaming at all the Christians who come here. I know some of them actually do want to learn, and that sometimes they where brought up a certain way and told certain things and to a point don't know better. I guess this whole topic has just brought up some nasty memories for me.... And who pray tell is Mr/Mrs Invictus? I hear ya! See my little outburst at God in one of the other topics? My approach is totally tactical: first step is political with discussion, and if it doesn’t work, then full war. Mr Invictus... he’s a different creature! He's in the Debating with Christians, under different evolution topics. I’ve start using the classification of Dementor for people like him, taken from the Harry Potter books, a creature that have no happiness and try to suck out the happiness from other people. He's being mauling the topics with a Cosmological Argument for Gods existence for at least 1 or 2 weeks. And he just won’t listen or budge on any point. He demands us to accept his evidence that God must exist, but he’s not open minded enough to admit that the evidence is not strong enough. So it’s a stalemate. He's the first one I put on my Ignore List, ever. I did it yesterday, after 1 week of debating. I just got pissed enough to decide that he's not worthy my response anymore! *** Edit *** And I'm learning too. This site is my school for debating with Christians as well as fill my head with more knowledge and understanding, brought to me by my new friends, like you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 If their beliefs are causing them pain, they need to be discussed, that's something I think everybody here would agree with. At the same time telling a person that they should change their beliefs is not something I'm comfortable with. I don't honestly know why, but it's something that makes me very hesitant. I know that I've done it indirectly(at the very least) in my time here, telling people such nonsense like evolution, the big bang theory, equal rights, etc. etc. etc. I can say the Bible is crap. I can say that Jesus is not my role model, nor is any other saint. I can say I don't believe or respect BibleGod. I have a very hard time saying "You should not believe in this." I have told them the facts are not on their side, that according to all rational and reasonable indications they are flat out wrong. But I've never told them what to do with it. Merlin <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Merlin, I feel the same way as you on this ... it makes me very hesitent as well (!!!), I think maybe it does come down to personality or 'style' - and I would agree with Reach's comments about some people being 'evangelists'. I was never comfortable with 'evangelism' when I was a fully paid up believing christian, (although I was always being told that somehow that meant I wasn't a 'proper' christian or that I didn't really believe ... I think it was just a difference in personality) If your hesitency is about age, and likely to change in a decade or so - then the same could be said for the 'evangelists' on this board ... maybe they'll 'grow out' of their evangelistic approach. I went for lunch today with a friend of mine from my last church. She is one of the few who didn't drop me when I left. She is one of the world's beautiful people. Her childhood was marred by the horrible sexual abuse she suffered. She ran away at 15 and lost the next ten years to drugs and prostitution. She emerged again, when in her words 'God rescued her' - and to her mind she felt loved for the first time. Her faith is really important to her- she has found purpose and direction and solace and she spends her time working with the homeless and her compassion and concern and committment is amazing. She thinks I am mistaken about God, but she asks me about my wanderings and listens to my questioning - even though I think it is painful to her, she prays for me daily - and I don't mind that she does, because I love her I guess. I will never try to 'deconvert her'. But DC - I appreciate your comments as well - I have been challenged very deeply to think about my 'approach' and as to whether 'nice' christians perpetuate the harm done in the name of 'christianity' through their continued alliegence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Merlin, I feel the same way as you on this ... it makes me very hesitent as well (!!!), (snip) But DC - I appreciate your comments as well - I have been challenged very deeply to think about my 'approach' and as to whether 'nice' christians perpetuate the harm done in the name of 'christianity' through their continued alliegence. I'm also very torn between what is supposed to be the right thing to do. My whole family is Christian, and some of my siblings I would like to get into an argument just for the sake of the argument, not to win. Others of my siblings I'd like to de-convert, but my parents I don't want to take away anything, because they've been the best parents anyone can have. And they're strongly religious. So I'm very torn, and think different strategies for different people and different Christians you talk to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I'm also very torn between what is supposed to be the right thing to do. My whole family is Christian, and some of my siblings I would like to get into an argument just for the sake of the argument, not to win. Others of my siblings I'd like to de-convert, but my parents I don't want to take away anything, because they've been the best parents anyone can have. And they're strongly religious. So I'm very torn, and think different strategies for different people and different Christians you talk to. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> .... church of the apostates .. we are all part of the body ... some are called to be eyes .... some hands ... blah de blah - but how true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Mythra and all... When things get a bit heated and words get a bit too warm, there will be a note dropped into thread asking for things to be cooled off, or kept topical. If you piss an individual off, there is the PM service in which the offended party can contact you, Mods, Staff with complaint(s). My guide to *pointy words* is that I'd say here in print those things I'd say to someones face.. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Yeah, Nivek. That's cool. I never think about using a PM. When I go into attack mode, I don't know if "heated" describes my posts, as much as "mocking". But, either way, I feel shitty after I've done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfunkman Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Oh no - first I was Christ's representative here on earth, and now I have to put on a nice face to help represent the atheists? Are you kidding? What's next, "try to abstain from using profanity"? I'm new here, and I can only speak for myself, but from what I've read, no one slams or mocks TAP. That's because she is non-condescending and non-judgmental. But when someone tells me that they will look at me in hell and laugh at me from heaven, the gloves are off. sorry. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have absoulutely no problem in slamming or mocking TAP. She has an absurd belief system. The Bible. And she believes that I will be tortured in Hell for eternity. Anyone who believes this deserves all that they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I have absoulutely no problem in slamming or mocking TAP. She has an absurd belief system. The Bible. And she believes that I will be tortured in Hell for eternity. Anyone who believes this deserves all that they get. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anyone who believes something I don't like deserves all that they get ..... now where have I heard that kind of thinking before ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I have absoulutely no problem in slamming or mocking TAP. She has an absurd belief system. The Bible. And she believes that I will be tortured in Hell for eternity. Anyone who believes this deserves all that they get. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hugs and kisses to you, too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Hugs and kisses to you, too..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfunkman Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Anyone who believes something I don't like deserves all that they get ..... now where have I heard that kind of thinking before ....... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was refering to this website and I think you know it. It is called "EX-Christian.net". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I was refering to this website and I think you know it. It is called "EX-Christian.net". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know what, Z? You're right. You have every right to say what you feel here and you should. This is a place of refuge. I sincerely mean that. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 This reminds me of a bible quote: "Woe to him that calls good evil and evil good." When I deconverted I thought "wouldn't it be funny if that one verse was the key to 'getting' the whole bible." as if it were all some sortof test or riddle to see if you really COULD distinguish good from evil. Because we are called evil despite the fact we are good, the biblegod is called good despite the obvious actions which make him evil. Just a funky little mindtrip...and no I wasn't on drugs when I thought of that...it was just...funny. Have you ever done the "intelligence test" in school or somewhere, where you get the paper with a lot of difficult questions, but the last part at the end of it all says "Only read through this paper, don't answer any questions, only sign your name here and turn the paper in". The little trick to see if you read the quiz before you started... Maybe the bible, like you say, is just the mind trick, and no one got it! Mabye "God wrote" the Bible to scare us away from religion, for us to become atheists, so only apostates will go to heaven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 lol...if that's true i don't think believers will go to "hell" they'll just have to sit in a little room and write: "i will examine and think about what I read before I accept it" 3,000 times, then they can go to heaven. but they have to do it according to God's time. ......1 day is like 1000 years................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 but they have to do it according to God's time. ......1 day is like 1000 years................. Yikes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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