Ouroboros Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I know I'm missing something obvious. I hope you can point it out to me. My best regards to you, Merlin It was a very good post. I want to add this, maybe it was what you were looking for: Even if I would be able to remove religion from a person, it doesn't end the problems. Why? Because some people just need something to believe in, and if you show them "Religion X is wrong because of so and so..", they will only jump on to the next train, the next religion. There is a reason why religion evolved in us humans. Whatever reasons (I have my theories), you can't undo what caused the drive to make a religion in people. So if you remove one religion, a new one will pop up. Therefore I take the approach to make an attempt to get a religious person to accept a smoother, nicer and less dangerous version of their religion, instead of aggresive and obnoxious. I wish that everyone in the whole world would understand the beauty of not having a religion, but it's just an ideal utopia that is not possible today. Hopefully in some near future, humans have evolved away from the need of religion and can move on in a mature and solid fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 MerlinThis gives me chills, it really does. What it says to me is that you're trying to change the dogma, not the behavior. For me it is exactly the opposite. I really couldn't care less what god(s) people bow before, it's their affair, not mine. When they start harming people I step in. If they are harming themselves, I try to point that out... if they are bound and determined to hurt themselves, there isn't much I can do. I am practicing preventative medicine so to speak. I am not changing any dogma. I am pointing out harmful dogma and there are plenty of philosophies and religions to choose from, but Christianity and Islam are dangerous because of the mixed messages inside thier holybooks. I am rational in my descrimination where Christians are not. Belief in the bible story is not rational and they are connected to the other fundies who cause trouble by supporting the lie that the bible is the word of a god. To say that the bible is the word of a god is to give a book power that others can use as an authority as well. And we all know what bigoted things fundies can pull out of the bible. As you know, scripture from these evil books agravate human tendancies to persecute those who are different. It is an error on your part to only put emphasis on the Christians that don't act on certain scripture. Let me reapeat it again: To say that the bible is the word of a god is to give a book power that others can use as an authority as well.. People who will use this "authority to do harm. And we all know what bigoted things fundies can pull out of the bible. I know that it is impossible to rid the world of evil; but it possible to reduce damage. And damage from superstition is inexcusable. We can fuck up because of ignorance and correct things later, but not if we can't question the "Authority" (The bible). They need to make it crystal clear that that book is not the word of a god. The bible is thier method, it is the cornerstone of Christianity. Or they must be crystal clear about what is inspired by god in that book which none of them has done so far. To all Christians that book is still the word of a god and is an authority. MerlinI say it's wrong because it's narrow sighted. Trying to change a person because of one detail in that person not only does harm(it's indiscriminate) but it fails to solve the problem. That being said... Sometimes the person is so tightly wound in the idea of 'God is great' they never hear the next line - 'but will he listen?' They are so blinded that they refuse to see the harm they are doing by following 'His Word.' So you have to point out that the only way to be a faithful fundamentalist Christian is to toss mercy and love out the window. You have to illustrate the choice they have: Be a Christian, or follow the loving image of Christ. One detail? One? There are a lot of people that have been harmed because of your "one detail". I am for the underdog. Always have been. I do not care if homosexuals and nonchristians are a minority in this country. People are being mistreated because of the "Authority" of the bible. I am not being narrow sited. I am critizing thier methods which is from the bible. The Christians need to make thier methods crystal clear on what parts of the bible is the word of a god if they want me off thier backs. As far as the loving image of Christ read the N.T. again please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Before you rebut I would apreciate if you reread my post were I break it down that even nice Christians are bigots. They are connected even if cogantive dissonence blinds them to the connection that they share with the asshole fundies. here Apathy towards what harm fellow christians do is wrong. Supporting evil scripture that vilifies people is wrong. It has led to bloodshed through outt history. Why because the bible is an authority to the christian religion. I am not spliting hairs. I am not nit picking. The Christians need to make it crystal clear what scripture is the word of god and which scripture is not, but hell will freez over before that happens and so I will do what is quicker and show people that that evil book is in no way the word of a god. Yes I will deconvert Christians and leave them to explore other philosophies or religions on thier own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 And next time Merlin I would apreciate you matching me point for point as you have done with reach. You really did not respond to what I said in any of my posts. You merley gave me an alternative to my methods and you were incoherent in your critisms. Your alternative is non sequiter. If there behaviors is what needs to be changed then they need to change thier methods. They need to use methods that do not condone or support bigotry. They need to openly reject certain scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Apathy towards what harm fellow christians do is wrong. Supporting evil scripture that vilifies people is wrong. It has led to bloodshed through outt history. Why because the bible is an authority to the christian religion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> DC~ Have I harmed you? Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Inderectly yes you have Tap. But it isn't because you are a mean person. I have to clean up after the messes of Christianity and I am sick of it. Part of my recovery in secular recovery is giving back to the community. That means helping people on the streets. There are times when I run into people who have been damaged by your belief system. If you support bigoted scripture then you give it power. Your book has power because people believe in it. I do not hate you Tap. And I am kinda worn because of what I have potsed. It is not fun being the bad guy, or saying what should be said. In retrospect Merlin is awsome in the fact that he is proof that freethinkers do not kiss eachothers asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 And I am kinda worn because of what I have potsed. It is not fun being the bad guy, or saying what should be said. I think you're doing a fine job, DC. I completely understand where you're coming from with your idea's, and from what I've read as responses to you, I'd even understand if you wished to go and bang your head against a brick wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I think you're doing a fine job, DC. I completely understand where you're coming from with your idea's, and from what I've read as responses to you, I'd even understand if you wished to go and bang your head against a brick wall. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Fwee, I kinda needed to hear that I am not evil or an asshole who is narrowmindedly bigoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks Fwee, I kinda needed to hear that I am not evil or an asshole who is narrowmindedly bigoted. You're not. You're trying to show how assholeism and narrowminded bigotry are perpetuated, and it doesn't seem like others are understanding you. To me, you're speaking loud and clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I do not hate you Tap. And I am kinda worn because of what I have potsed. It is not fun being the bad guy, or saying what should be said. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think you're a bad guy at all and there are times that I still would like to pinch those cheeks. When I was younger......about 19, I was robbed at gunpoint in a robbery that lasted about 20 minutes by four males. (That is long for a robbery) There was another girl and myself there. One of the robbers used the end of a shot gun and molested us with it......fully loaded...ready to blow us away at any moment. Imagine having a fully loaded gun tracing up and down your body for what seemed and endless amount of time. Right when they were ready to get into their getaway car.....they held the gun up to our faces. I can't even tell you what I was feeling at that moment. Suddenly they turned and ran out the door. All four of these men were of a different culture than my own. I was devastated and scarred from that event for about 5 years. If somebody from that culture approached me---- even just walking down the street......I couldn't breath because I was terrified and had flashbacks. One day, I met this really wonderful guy...a co-worker of the same race as the robbers. It took me time but I gave him a chance to help me through the wall of prejudice I had built up. I don't think I need to finish the story............. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I don't think you're a bad guy at all and there are times that I stil would like to pinch those cheeks. When I was younger......about 19, I was robbed at gunpoint in a robbery that lasted about 20 minutes by four males. (That is long for a robbery) There was another girl and myself there. One of the robbers used the end of a shot gun and molested us with it......fully loaded...ready to blow us away at any moment. Imagine having a fully loaded gun tracing up and down your body for what seemed and endless amount of time. Right when they were ready to get into their getaway car.....they held the gun up to our faces. I can't even tell you what I was feeling at that moment. Suddenly they turned and ran out the door. All four of these men were of a different culture than my own. I was devastated and scarred from that event for about 5 years. If somebody from that culture approached me---- even just walking down the street......I couldn't breath because I was terrified and had flashbacks. One day, I met this really wonderful guy...a co-worker of the same race as the robbers. It took me time but I gave him a chance to help me through the wall of prejudice I had built up. I don't think I need to finish the story............. Tap <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I can not anylize this experience you share because I do not know what cultures you are talking about. But remember that I am talking about your methods. I have isolated your methods and bigotry is in your scriptures. Your book. So your analogy is a false analogy. I do not like any kind of injustice or sufferning. I am a humanist. Your story makes me angry. Things like that are sensless and cruel and it should never happened to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 One day, I met this really wonderful guy...a co-worker of the same race as the robbers. It took me time but I gave him a chance to help me through the wall of prejudice I had built up. I don't think I need to finish the story............. Tap Actually, in order to stay on topic, you cut the story short at its most crucial point. What methods did this guy use in order to show you how to get around your fear. (Yes, I said 'fear', which is something completely different from 'prejudice') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks Fwee. My descrimination is based on reason and evidences and not on stereotypes. My experiences with christians have been bad ones. But you all use the same methods...the bible. There is no stereotyping from bad experiences on my part. I have scripture to explain certain actions of certain Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Before you rebut I would apreciate if you reread my post were I break it down that even nice Christians are bigots. They are connected even if cogantive dissonence blinds them to the connection that they share with the asshole fundies DC...I'm fairly certain that was an attack on the person......not the book. Fwee......does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 DC...I'm fairly certain that was an attack on the person......not the book.Fwee......does it matter? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was talking about your book and your support of bigoted scripture in your book. I am sorry. You do not have to be hateful or harm others directly to be a bigot. You can not logicaly refute that Christianity is a bigoted religion so long as the bible is the cornerstone of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I was talking about your book and your support of bigoted scripture in your book. I am sorry. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's time to move on...... I just wanted you to see that some of us genuinely care. Good night. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I was talking about your book and your support of bigoted scripture in your book. I am sorry. You do not have to be hateful or harm others directly to be a bigot. You can not logicaly refute that Christianity is a bigoted religion so long as the bible is the cornerstone of Christianity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 DC...I'm fairly certain that was an attack on the person......not the book. You are saying this to DC because you aren't understanding the point that he is making. What he has been trying to show is how bigotry is spread through the religion, and how certain people (who are NOT outright bigots) help to perpetuate bigotry by spreading a religion that teaches that it is okay because they wish to gloss over certain verses or say that people simply misinterpret the verses because they are too afraid to openly question their book of authority. Fwee......does it matter? Never mind. Perhaps it would have if you would have answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I feel like crap. Prejudice is prejudice. Supporting bigoted scripture is bigotry even if you do not damage people directly. It is a cold hard fact. You can not logicaly refute that Christianity is a bigoted religion so long as the bible is the cornerstone of Christianity. I never chase around idiot xians. I just make fun of those kinds. But people who I value and think have potential of breaking thier chains, those are the people I will bother to debate. You know were the arena is Tap. If you want me to show the scriptures that are bigoted then we should have a moderated debate. I will go to the trouble for you and SOIL but not many xians here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I feel like crap. Why? Prejudice is prejudice. You're right. And prejudice isn't fear, which is what TAP was helped through. Supporting bigoted scripture is bigotry even if you do not damage people directly. It is a cold hard fact. I hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Why? You're right. And prejudice isn't fear, which is what TAP was helped through. I hear you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I feel like crap because I have feelings for Tap. I wish my aunt would have been more like her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Why do Christians come to exchristian.net? Either because of their own doubts or to re-infect us. Can we forget that the Christian Meme caused hundreds of thousands of people to be tortured and burned at the stake? I have no patience with their ignorance, nor will I let them re-infect me. If they can't stand the heat, let them go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I want her to stay even if she stays a christian. I will let off on her a little, but if she questions me I will be blunt. She is an asset to these forums in other threads wre religion is discussed and wer it is not discussed. She has value to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I feel like crap because I have feelings for Tap. Then, since this is the case, I think it would be a great idea if you would just relax a bit, then really take your time to type out a hypothetical situation in order to illustrate your point. This way, I would hope, would be easier for TAP to understand why you are stating your arguments this way. You want to know what really sucks? It's the fact that you are trying to make a legitimate point about how religion affects reality in an extremely negative way, and yet, even though you have 'feelings' for TAP, she already has it justified in her mind that you're going to hell for eternity for not believing the way she does. It's almost maddening, I know. And TAP, that wasn't a jab at you, I'm just stating what I've learned from posts that you've made in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Then, since this is the case, I think it would be a great idea if you would just relax a bit, then really take your time to type out a hypothetical situation in order to illustrate your point. This way, I would hope, would be easier for TAP to understand why you are stating your arguments this way. You want to know what really sucks? It's the fact that you are trying to make a legitimate point about how religion affects reality in an extremely negative way, and yet, even though you have 'feelings' for TAP, she already has it justified in her mind that you're going to hell for eternity for not believing the way she does. It's almost maddening, I know. And TAP, that wasn't a jab at you, I'm just stating what I've learned from posts that you've made in the past. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Excellent. I will take your advice Fwee. Thank you. She is worth the trouble. I kinda like SOIL to. Bad news for him eh? hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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