Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 If all people are bigots, the word becomes fairly meaningless. The coloquial usage of the word for the last 40 years in the English speaking world points up a lot of connotations to the word. If you want to argue jsut from lexicography we can certainly go down that road. I doubt that you would hold the same standard of lexical equivalence when, instead of respectfully noticing that you are a woman, a man were to point out that you were a cunt-carrier or a baby-factory. Even though lexically the terms are correct biological description of a woman, they are hardly respectful or even neutrally blase`, If you want to compare them on the same level, that's fine. But bigotry and hatred are not synonymous and your carrying on won't make it so. *shrug* Basic English: You can't pervert a lie. A lie is already perverse. Truth *can* be perverted. To pervert is to twist or debase something that is good. To make something evil or dirty that once was not. Truth that is twisted is no longer truth. It is a lie. Basic logic. It's about civility and decency. You know, those things that make civilization and social order possible? Whenever someone starts talking about civilization and decency in the same sentence I get the urge to smash down a copy of Ishmael in front of them. My opinion on its possibility doesn't enter the matter. If you're interested in challenging the doctrine of hell and up against someone who truly believes it, then pointing out that it's morally reprehensible ain't gonna get you a thing. Well it won't if they don't really care about being moral. But I suspect TAP cares. So rising above just isn't in the game plan, eh? Raising consciouness, encouraging civility and dialogue - it just doesn't feel right to you. A shame, you're rather an intelligent and mature person otherwise. But, you're right, it's easier to pull down people who are attempting to do something productive than it is to be productive oneself.-Lokmer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you need to take a breath Lokmer and think about who is really insulting who in this thread right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I am curious, which dictionary is telling you that "bigotry" and "hatred" are synonymous. Because it isn't mine. Bigot: A person who is prejudiced in their own views and intolerant of the opinion of others. I would say that to be a bigot, you have to hate. How can you be a bigot and not hate? That's impossible to me. Bigotry, to me, is the intolerance and hatred of an entire group of people, regardless of whether every single member of that group deserves it. That is my personal definition and the one I have always used since I first heard the word. It implies hate, not just stuckup-ness or dislike. If you use the word "bigot" to imply simple dislike, then every single human being is a bigot. And I know for sure that I do not hate entire groups of people, which would make me not a bigot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I would say that to be a bigot, you have to hate. How can you be a bigot and not hate? That's impossible to me. Bigotry, to me, is the intolerance and hatred of an entire group of people, regardless of whether every single member of that group deserves it. That is my personal definition and the one I have always used since I first heard the word. It implies hate. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Someone says that the Rolling Stones are the best band ever. You say that is not the truth, that Buffalo Springfield was the best band ever. You think your opinions are the right ones and no one could ever convince you that the Rolling Stones are better. Does this mean you hate everyone who loves the Rolling Stones? No. But you are prejudiced against them as the best music group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 If you use the word "bigot" to imply simple dislike, then every single human being is a bigot. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Every single human being is a bigot. Unless you find a rare few who are not inclined to hold their personal opinions as the right ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I could care less about either band, actually. And prejudice in that context is NOT the same thing as bigotry. Every single human being is a bigot. Unless you find a rare few who are not inclined to hold their personal opinions as the right ones. I take offense to that. Do you even know me at all? You're talking to someone who was bullied for her entire childhood. I've experienced real hate. I don't hate people unless they prove, through their actions, that they deserve it. I do not say that my opinions are the "ONLY" right ones, I am open to changing my mind if the evidence is presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I could care less about either band, actually. And prejudice in that context is NOT the same thing as bigotry. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Can you explain why not? Other then it being your personal opinion...which is, of course, better then mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 If you want to compare them on the same level, that's fine. But bigotry and hatred are not synonymous and your carrying on won't make it so. *shrug*------ Truth that is twisted is no longer truth. It is a lie. Basic logic. ------ Whenever someone starts talking about civilization and decency in the same sentence I get the urge to smash down a copy of Ishmael in front of them. ----- I think you need to take a breath Lokmer and think about who is really insulting who in this thread right now. This is absurd. For Ishmael (which is a thought-provoking book), read Hobbes "Leviathan" and do some research on the history of death by homocide in raw numbers in cultures both civilized and uncivilized. For a good survey of such statistics see Steve Pinker's "The Blank Slate." There is no noble savage. For the rest of it, I'm out. You're clearly not interested in the ethical issues I raised, and my points have been made as well as I can make them. They may stand or fall on their own. Thanks for the mental and rehtorical exercise. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Can you explain why not? Other then it being your personal opinion...which is, of course, better then mine. It is the way the word is used in that context. From Websters: Prejucide: An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. A preconceived preference or idea. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others. From Websters: Bigotry: The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance. Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own * * * * * Bigotry is worse, in my opinion, although definitions 4 & 5 of prejudice are pretty much the same thing as bigotry. There is a difference between being intolerant, and just having a strong opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 This is absurd. For Ishmael (which is a thought-provoking book), read Hobbes "Leviathan" and do some research on the history of death by homocide in raw numbers in cultures both civilized and uncivilized. For a good survey of such statistics see Steve Pinker's "The Blank Slate." There is no noble savage. For the rest of it, I'm out. You're clearly not interested in the ethical issues I raised, and my points have been made as well as I can make them. They may stand or fall on their own. Thanks for the mental and rehtorical exercise. -Lokmer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are welcome. And Lokmer, I have already read Hobbes "Leviathan. First year, Philosophy and second year Historical Thinkers. You haven't really raised any ethical issues, except that you wish DC wouldn't use the word "bigot" to describe Christians because you find it offensive, and that apparently this site is about "levels" and trying to "one-up" christians instead of saying what one thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I could care less about either band, actually. And prejudice in that context is NOT the same thing as bigotry.I take offense to that. Do you even know me at all? You're talking to someone who was bullied for her entire childhood. I've experienced real hate. I don't hate people unless they prove, through their actions, that they deserve it. I do not say that my opinions are the "ONLY" right ones, I am open to changing my mind if the evidence is presented. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Were you not reading my other posts? The one where I said that "hatred" and "bigotry" are not synonymous? Can you point out when I ever insinuated that you hate people? Can you honestly tell me that you don't believe you are right when you say things? Or that there are not times when you are not open to changing your mind (like perhaps, over the definition of "bigotry" for instance)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Can you point out when I ever insinuated that you hate people? Every single human being is a bigot. It is true that we all have preconceived notions of people, until we get to know them. Those preconceived notions may be based on their ethnicity, religion, lack of religon, physical appearance, gender, etc. You are right that all human beings make these snap judgements, and that is only human. But to me, that's not bigotry. Bigotry is refusing to change your preconceived notions and having extreme dislike (if you don't want to say hate, fine, but it's still hate to me) for other groups with different ideas, even when someone proves your own ideas wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Can you honestly tell me that you don't believe you are right when you say things? Or that there are not times when you are not open to changing your mind (like perhaps, over the definition of "bigotry" for instance)? As someone who frequently reads, I have only ever read the word "bigotry" in the context of hate. I've never seen it used otherwise. I am open to changing my mind if you can point out that most people would disagree that bigotry implies hate, but I think that most people I know would agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 It is the way the word is used in that context. From Websters: Prejucide: An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. A preconceived preference or idea. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others. From Websters: Bigotry: The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance. Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own * * * * * Bigotry is worse, in my opinion, although definitions 4 & 5 of prejudice are pretty much the same thing as bigotry. There is a difference between being intolerant, and just having a strong opinion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Intolerance: n 1: impatience with annoyances; "his intolerance of interruptions" 2: unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or beliefs [ant: tolerance] Now, we were talking in regards to Christianity. What happens when a Christian is tolerant towards the opinion that Jesus Christ is not the only way, truth, and light? Well, you get Amanda. It is a standard of Christianity to be intolerant of the suggestion that Jesus is not the way to salvation. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a Christianity. Everyone has something they are intolerant to suggestion about. Something that might make their system of life collapse. As for myself, I am intolerant to the opinion that this is all merely a dream and that I do not really exist except for as some figment of someone else's imagination. It doesn't mean I hate anyone who thinks that way, but it does mean that I will refuse to respect or recognize that belief, as that would force my world view down around my knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 As someone who frequently reads, I have only ever read the word "bigotry" in the context of hate. I've never seen it used otherwise. I am open to changing my mind if you can point out that most people would disagree that bigotry implies hate, but I think that most people I know would agree with me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's a poll by popular opinion now? I can show you at least on context where "bigotry" is not used in the context of hate. But then you would have to read this thread again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Wow ... If Lokmer and Cerise ever team up on something ... please remind me not to be on the other side ... Group hug time? ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Group margarita time, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Group margarita time, I think. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Excellent idea! (my list of 'must read books' has doubled since I joined this site) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 It's a poll by popular opinion now? I can show you at least on context where "bigotry" is not used in the context of hate. But then you would have to read this thread again. See Wikipedia's entry also. Bigotry I suppose you could use it in the original context: BIGOT was also a D-Day codeword, defining ultra top-secret clearance required to know details of the landing plans. Those with this knowledge were called "BIGOTed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 See Wikipedia's entry also. Bigotry I suppose you could use it in the original context: BIGOT was also a D-Day codeword, defining ultra top-secret clearance required to know details of the landing plans. Those with this knowledge were called "BIGOTed". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I suppose that would be why the OED states its origins as "French" eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Excellent idea! (my list of 'must read books' has doubled since I joined this site) I didn't have a 'must read books' list before this site, so how would that look in the context of 'big bang' and nothing-to-something argument from "Convictus"? Probably my book list is the proof that I exists... from nothing, to big bang of ex-c, result a wholelotta books to read... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I didn't have a 'must read books' list before this site, so how would that look in the context of 'big bang' and nothing-to-something argument from "Convictus"? Probably my book list is the proof that I exists... from nothing, to big bang of ex-c, result a wholelotta books to read... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And soon those books will evolve into videotapes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Group margarita time, I think. Margaritas sound really good... *Debates going over to the liquor store* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 See Wikipedia's entry also. Bigotry I suppose you could use it in the original context: BIGOT was also a D-Day codeword, defining ultra top-secret clearance required to know details of the landing plans. Those with this knowledge were called "BIGOTed". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> and BIG TED was my second favourite character on 'Playschool' (Kids TV programme when I was little) Is that related? Or should I go to bed? I think I should ... because I'm now trying to work out if my booklist has always existed and whether or not I could read it in six days ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 and BIG TED was my second favourite character on 'Playschool' (Kids TV programme when I was little) Is that related? LOL...was his middle initial O? Reminds me of those Bart Simpson prank calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 And soon those books will evolve into videotapes... NOOOOOOOOOH! And I got rid of my VCRs!!! Damn, I can't view the books then... I have to wait for the higher evolved DVD to see the books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts