Homophobia

[Mike D]

No offense, but it's very hard for me to have any respect for someone who claims to be gay and also a Christian. If you believe parts of the Bible were written by men and don't take them as truth (i.e. Leviticus 20:13), then you really have no basis for believing any of the Bible is "revealed" at all. In other words, there's no point in taking any of the Bible as anything more than a dusty old book documenting the daily lives of a band of delusional, possibly psychotic sheepherders who hallucinated that invisible people were real and that a zombie came back to life and launched itself into deep space.

 

Sorry I just don't get it.

[Mike D]

Well I just saw that gaychristian.net site. I think I am going to hurl

[currentchristian]

No offense, but it's very hard for me to have any respect for someone who claims to be gay and also a Christian. If you believe parts of the Bible were written by men and don't take them as truth (i.e. Leviticus 20:13), then you really have no basis for believing any of the Bible is "revealed" at all. In other words, there's no point in taking any of the Bible as anything more than a dusty old book documenting the daily lives of a band of delusional, possibly psychotic sheepherders who hallucinated that invisible people were real and that a zombie came back to life and launched itself into deep space.

 

Sorry I just don't get it.

 

You must allow room for each person's conscience to lead that person to the lifestyle/belief system that seems most correct to that person. Not everyone will see things your way or my way or anyone else's way. I respect your choices. Why is it that you find it very hard to respect me because I do not conform to your view that a gay person should not be Christian?

 

-CC

[Mike D]

You must allow room for each person's conscience to lead that person to the lifestyle/belief system that seems most correct to that person. Not everyone will see things your way or my way or anyone else's way. I respect your choices. Why is it that you find it very hard to respect me because I do not conform to your view that a gay person should not be Christian?

 

-CC

"My way" as you say is pretty similar to the majority of the people on this site, which is to stick with facts and evidence. And the fact is there is no evidence that *any* of the Bible is "god's word" much less parts of it. And you did a rather good job at dodging the main crux of my post, which was the idea that you throw out parts of the Bible as not "god's word" (the parts you don't particularly care for, coincidentally), yet keep others as "god's word", which I am assuming are the parts of the Bible you prefer.

 

Also, you don't have to respect my choices, you don't have to respect anything about me. It just seems rather emotionally needy (emotionally desperate, perhaps?) for someone to align themselves with an ideology that imphatically rejects, and is in direct conflict with, something that is very much inherently "you". I think someone else stated it very well when they said something to the effect of it being like a Jew aligning themselves with the Nazi party. I couldn't agree more.

[currentchristian]

You must allow room for each person's conscience to lead that person to the lifestyle/belief system that seems most correct to that person. Not everyone will see things your way or my way or anyone else's way. I respect your choices. Why is it that you find it very hard to respect me because I do not conform to your view that a gay person should not be Christian?

 

-CC

"My way" as you say is pretty similar to the majority of the people on this site, which is to stick with facts and evidence. And the fact is there is no evidence that *any* of the Bible is "god's word" much less parts of it. And you did a rather good job at dodging the main crux of my post, which was the idea that you throw out parts of the Bible as not "god's word" (the parts you don't particularly care for, coincidentally), yet keep others as "god's word", which I am assuming are the parts of the Bible you prefer.

 

Also, you don't have to respect my choices, you don't have to respect anything about me. It just seems rather emotionally needy (emotionally desperate, perhaps?) for someone to align themselves with an ideology that imphatically rejects, and is in direct conflict with, something that is very much inherently "you". I think someone else stated it very well when they said something to the effect of it being like a Jew aligning themselves with the Nazi party. I couldn't agree more.

 

I do not refer to any text or passage of the Bible as "God's Word." I do not subscribe to inerrency or verbal-plenary inspiration of the Bible. It is fundamentalist thinking that either the entire Bible is the perfect word of God or the entire Bible is perfect nonsense. Both views have a ring of fundamentalist thinking about them, in my view. Not trying to be antagonistic, just saying this is how it comes across to me. I try to stay open minded and allow the facts, the evidence, the history, the scholarship -- as well as my conscience and heart -- to bring me to a conclusion that seems reasonable to me.

 

You are right that I am emotionally needy. Can you name one person who does not have emotional needs? Just one person? Why is it that you seem to believe that while my theism is evidence of emotional need your atheism is not? Again, not trying to antagonize you, just wanting to engage a little more on this topic. Likely we both have room to grow. I know I do.

 

-CC

[Mike D]

I do not refer to any text or passage of the Bible as "God's Word."

You don't? Then you must believe Jesus was a man and not a god. And if you believe Jesus was a man, then that pretty much contradicts a large part of the Bible, both OT and New.

 

It is fundamentalist thinking that either the entire Bible is the perfect word of God or the entire Bible is perfect nonsense. Both views have a ring of fundamentalist thinking about them

I never said the Bible was perfect nonesense, so you can cut the subtle implications. As a historical reference, the Bible contains writings about real places, people and events in human history. Just as other holy books do. The nonsense comes into play with all the references to the supernatural, or the flat out absurd. Talking donkeys? Talking snakes? Dragons? And we haven't even touched on all the violence in the Bible. Murder, rape, mass killings, genocide, etc. All found in the Good Book ™ of Good News ™.

 

I try to stay open minded and allow the facts, the evidence, the history, the scholarship -- as well as my conscience and heart -- to bring me to a conclusion that seems reasonable to me.

What facts? What evidence? So far you haven't offered any. And by the way, hearts don't have a purpose other than to pump blood.....do a google search on basic cardiology if there's any doubt.

 

You are right that I am emotionally needy. Can you name one person who does not have emotional needs?

In my mind there is a bit of a difference between someone having emotional needs and someone who is "emotionally needy". In my opinion someone who is "needy" goes beyond basic needs and requires pacification above and beyond what would be typical. I was trying to avoid using the term "high maintenance", but that is probably more accurate.

 

Why is it that you seem to believe that while my theism is evidence of emotional need your atheism is not?

In my experience many atheists that I know tend to be less emotional and more rational, which is probably one of the reasons they managed to end up atheists in the first place. Atheism is a rational position which appeals to the rationally minded.

 

Likely we both have room to grow. I know I do.

I need no additional growth, I am perfect. I am Mike D.

[Taphophilia]

I think that Christianity is so ingrained in our culture that many people believe some form of it even if they tailor it to fit their ideology. They don't understand you don't have to believe it, or in any god what so ever, in order to embrace your own spirituality. I've had my gay friends look horrified when I've said things against Christianity. Also, I've had my gay friends say things to me that I find somewhat offensive, like, "I have six sisters, that's why I'm gay." "Christine is an ex-lesbian, she's dating men now."

 

Christianity is terribly harmful. There are too many gay teens out there who want to kill themselves because they have been conditioned to believe that they are an abomination. There are too many gays married to straights, who are both living miserable lives. One because they are denying who they are, and the one because they are not enough for the other. When a gay or transgendered person cannot live the lie any longer, their children are taken away either by the state or the bitter spouse. They lose their friends, family, and have no support. Many turn to alcohol or drugs to dull the pain. There are too many heartbreaking stories. Homophobia is the cause and Chritianity is the root.

[Mike D]

Christianity is terribly harmful. There are too many gay teens out there who want to kill themselves because they have been conditioned to believe that they are an abomination.

I totally completely 100% agree. It's pretty pathetic because always remember, no matter how hateful and nasty Christians are to gay people, they really do "care". And Jesus does too!

[currentchristian]

I do not refer to any text or passage of the Bible as "God's Word."

You don't? Then you must believe Jesus was a man and not a god. And if you believe Jesus was a man, then that pretty much contradicts a large part of the Bible, both OT and New.

 

It is fundamentalist thinking that either the entire Bible is the perfect word of God or the entire Bible is perfect nonsense. Both views have a ring of fundamentalist thinking about them

I never said the Bible was perfect nonesense, so you can cut the subtle implications. As a historical reference, the Bible contains writings about real places, people and events in human history. Just as other holy books do. The nonsense comes into play with all the references to the supernatural, or the flat out absurd. Talking donkeys? Talking snakes? Dragons? And we haven't even touched on all the violence in the Bible. Murder, rape, mass killings, genocide, etc. All found in the Good Book of Good News .

 

I try to stay open minded and allow the facts, the evidence, the history, the scholarship -- as well as my conscience and heart -- to bring me to a conclusion that seems reasonable to me.

What facts? What evidence? So far you haven't offered any. And by the way, hearts don't have a purpose other than to pump blood.....do a google search on basic cardiology if there's any doubt.

 

You are right that I am emotionally needy. Can you name one person who does not have emotional needs?

In my mind there is a bit of a difference between someone having emotional needs and someone who is "emotionally needy". In my opinion someone who is "needy" goes beyond basic needs and requires pacification above and beyond what would be typical. I was trying to avoid using the term "high maintenance", but that is probably more accurate.

 

Why is it that you seem to believe that while my theism is evidence of emotional need your atheism is not?

In my experience many atheists that I know tend to be less emotional and more rational, which is probably one of the reasons they managed to end up atheists in the first place. Atheism is a rational position which appeals to the rationally minded.

 

Likely we both have room to grow. I know I do.

I need no additional growth, I am perfect. I am Mike D.

 

Well, Mike D., if you are perfect, you are the first such example of our species I have ever met. But I'll take you at your word.

 

I was not implying that you believe the Bible is all nonsense; I was using this as an example of fundamentalist attitudes. One can be a fundamentalist about anything--even one's favorite sports team, one's sexual orientation, one religion or lack thereof.

 

While I do not accept that Bible as "the Word of God," I do embrace Jesus as "the Word of God." This is a fundamental distinction, in my mind. Just my view so as to clarify my point, not trying to convince anyone to see it this way or any other way.

 

I don't think I'm high maintenance, as you charged. I'm pretty self-sufficient, actually. But you have a right to your views.

 

You must have misunderstood my reference to the "heart." I referred to "heart" as a symbol of the "seat of emotions," not as the fist-size pumping organ. Sorry for the confusion.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

Christianity is terribly harmful. There are too many gay teens out there who want to kill themselves because they have been conditioned to believe that they are an abomination. There are too many gays married to straights, who are both living miserable lives. One because they are denying who they are, and the one because they are not enough for the other. When a gay or transgendered person cannot live the lie any longer, their children are taken away either by the state or the bitter spouse. They lose their friends, family, and have no support. Many turn to alcohol or drugs to dull the pain. There are too many heartbreaking stories. Homophobia is the cause and Chritianity is the root.

 

It goes without saying that I view homophobia as an agent of great harm. It is true that in our country the Bible is used as a big stick for many of those who are homophobic -- and as a justification for their views. Christianity contributes to homophobia.

 

However, Christianity is not the only boogie-man in all this. Take Japan, for example. While it is a nation of about 1% Christians, gay and lesbian people are not nearly as open there as they are here. The gay rights movement in the U.S. is much more advanced than in Japan, and the Japanese are in many ways not a very religious people--certainly not in terms of a Western idea of God.

 

It could be argued that Evolution is a root of homophobia, as well. Survival of the species depends on heterosexual intercourse. Therefore, we might be programmed by Evolution to look askance at that which is not heterosexual intercourse.

 

Little in life is black and white. Like all things, the cause of homophobia is difficult to discern.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

Christianity is terribly harmful. There are too many gay teens out there who want to kill themselves because they have been conditioned to believe that they are an abomination.

I totally completely 100% agree. It's pretty pathetic because always remember, no matter how hateful and nasty Christians are to gay people, they really do "care". And Jesus does too!

 

All of us need to be less hateful and nasty toward each other. Christians do not have the market on either vice. Seems to me.

 

-CC

[Mike D]

While I do not accept that Bible as "the Word of God," I do embrace Jesus as "the Word of God." This is a fundamental distinction, in my mind. Just my view so as to clarify my point, not trying to convince anyone to see it this way or any other way.

So what exactly does this mean? If you embrace Jesus as the Word of God and Jesus said something in the Bible, then wouldn't it logically follow that those are the "words of god"? I really don't see any distinction.

[Mike D]

All of us need to be less hateful and nasty toward each other. Christians do not have the market on either vice.

Wrong. In America when it comes to making young gay people believe they are an abomination, Christianity most certainly does have the market. I don't recall any atheists protesting at the funerals of murdered gay people rejoicing that they are now buring in hell.

[currentchristian]

While I do not accept that Bible as "the Word of God," I do embrace Jesus as "the Word of God." This is a fundamental distinction, in my mind. Just my view so as to clarify my point, not trying to convince anyone to see it this way or any other way.

So what exactly does this mean? If you embrace Jesus as the Word of God and Jesus said something in the Bible, then wouldn't it logically follow that those are the "words of god"? I really don't see any distinction.

 

That's a very fair question. My views may be half-baked and I'm absolutely not trying to convince anyone of them. But here they are:

 

Jesus is the Logos (Word of God). I know this only from the Bible, John's gospel. I accept the gospels as reasonably accurate records of the life of Jesus. (I know very few on this forum see it that way and that's fine, of course.) The fact that the gospels are fairly accurate constructions of the life of Jesus (in my understanding) and the epistles are quite accurate representations of the views of Paul and Peter and James and whomever, does not make them the "Word of God." I think Paul would be horrified to have his letters referred to as "the Word of God." I sure would be!

 

Over time, seems to me, the Word of God, Jesus, was replaced in that role by the Bible. While the Bible is an incredible book, in my view, it is just that -- a book. It contains historical, scientific and theological errors. It is not perfect. It is not infallible. It is not inerrant. It does contain "words from God," but it is not the "Word of God."

 

I know you don't see things at all as I do, Mike D, but does my position at least make some sense in terms of being understandable?

 

-CC

[Mike D]

By the way currentchristian, i've noticed that you seem to be working hard defending, or at least making light of Christian oppression of gay people, perhaps to "soften the blow" a little? You've so far pointed to evolution as a possible cause to homophobia and have gone out of your way to state "we all" need to be a little less hateful and nasty to each other, when it was clear we were talking about Christians making young people feel like they are an abomination, which "we all" who are not Christians are not a party to. And Taph is right, many become suicidal due to this. I guess you think maybe if you divert attention away from Christians and put the blame on someone or something else, we'll see that Christianity isn't so bad afterall

[currentchristian]

All of us need to be less hateful and nasty toward each other. Christians do not have the market on either vice.

Wrong. In America when it comes to making young gay people believe they are an abomination, Christianity most certainly does have the market. I don't recall any atheists protesting at the funerals of murdered gay people rejoicing that they are now buring in hell.

 

Christians in America may have the market in terms of distaste (even hate) for gay people, but unfortunately many of us hate other groups for various reasons. There's a lot of anger and hatred to go around. That's what I mean by my statement. And many, many Christians believe in absolute equality for gay people! We cannot allow their good witness for justice to be lost amid the vitriol of the other side.

 

Regarding the Phelps family -- excuse me for being so rude, but they have to be the nuttiest family in America -- we cannot use them as an example of how Christians behave, just as we cannot use Madalyn Murray O'Hair as an example of how atheists behave or O.J. Simpson as an example of how Black men behave. I don't know a single Christian who would stand with the Phelps family, other than their own little twisted (sorry to be so blunt) family and Westboro Baptist Church congregation.

 

-CC

[Mike D]

I know you don't see things at all as I do, Mike D, but does my position at least make some sense in terms of being understandable?

No.

[Mike D]

Regarding the Phelps family -- excuse me for being so rude, but they have to be the nuttiest family in America -- we cannot use them as an example of how Christians behave, just as we cannot use Madalyn Murray O'Hair as an example of how atheists behave or O.J. Simpson as an example of how Black men behave. I don't know a single Christian who would stand with the Phelps family, other than their own little twisted (sorry to be so blunt) family and Westboro Baptist Church congregation.

Wrong again. The difference is that the Phelps family represents a theology that is backed by doctrine. Atheism doesn't have a doctrine. Nor is there a doctrine for how to be a black man. Not only does the Phelps family have a doctrine to support their beliefs, but it states it explicitly. I can't think of anything more clear than a doctrine that states that gay people should be violently murdered to support Phelps' position.

[currentchristian]

By the way currentchristian, i've noticed that you seem to be working hard defending, or at least making light of Christian oppression of gay people, perhaps to "soften the blow" a little? You've so far pointed to evolution as a possible cause to homophobia and have gone out of your way to state "we all" need to be a little less hateful and nasty to each other, when it was clear we were talking about Christians making young people feel like they are an abomination, which "we all" who are not Christians are not a party to. And Taph is right, many become suicidal due to this. I guess you think maybe if you divert attention away from Christians and put the blame on someone or something else, we'll see that Christianity isn't so bad afterall

 

In all honesty and sincerity, I do not care how anyone here on this forum or anywhere else views Christianity. I'm simply not an evangelist or a proselytizer (don't even know how to spell it for sure) or secret agent for the First Church of You Know Who. I haven't attended a religious service more than a handful of times in the last 20 years, so I have no agenda to push. My one agenda is to say what I think it correct. Period.

 

I have done much work toward the equality of gay people. As a teacher, I worked hard to make certain our gay kids are safe and protected and given the support they need. I founded a chapter of the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network. I was open about being gay in the high school I taught at. I could list much, much more that I have done toward the effort of making young gay people safe in schools. Believe me, I will not defend homophobia of any kind. You are wrong about that.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

Regarding the Phelps family -- excuse me for being so rude, but they have to be the nuttiest family in America -- we cannot use them as an example of how Christians behave, just as we cannot use Madalyn Murray O'Hair as an example of how atheists behave or O.J. Simpson as an example of how Black men behave. I don't know a single Christian who would stand with the Phelps family, other than their own little twisted (sorry to be so blunt) family and Westboro Baptist Church congregation.

Wrong again. The difference is that the Phelps family represents a theology that is backed by doctrine. Atheism doesn't have a doctrine. Nor is there a doctrine for how to be a black man. Not only does the Phelps family have a doctrine to support their beliefs, but it states it explicitly. I can't think of anything more clear than a doctrine that states that gay people should be violently murdered to support Phelps' position.

 

Doctrine means "teaching." Atheism does, therefore, have doctrine. Seems to me.

 

Sorry I wasn't able to make myself clear on the Logos of God vs. Word of God issue. I did my best for you.

 

-CC

[Mike D]

And I should add that while Phelps is an extreme example, in churches all over America pastors echo his sentiments, while maybe not to that extent. I know, i've sat through many a Sunday church service during my life as a Christian.

[Mike D]

Doctrine means "teaching." Atheism does, therefore, have doctrine. Seems to me.

Then you haven't the first clue what atheism is. I suggest doing some reasearch on it before you make yourself look more foolish than you already have.

[currentchristian]

Doctrine means "teaching." Atheism does, therefore, have doctrine. Seems to me.

Then you haven't the first clue what atheism is. I suggest doing some reasearch on it before you make yourself look more foolish than you already have.

 

Part of the reason I am here is to do "research" on atheism. And believe me I've learned a lot.

 

Doctrine is a principle or position or teaching one takes or embraces or expresses. Atheism is the position/principle that there are no gods or that one does not believe in gods. These are doctrines of atheism.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

And I should add that while Phelps is an extreme example, in churches all over America pastors echo his sentiments, while maybe not to that extent. I know, i've sat through many a Sunday church service during my life as a Christian.

 

I am not an optimist, but I do have hope. My hope is that this spiritual abuse will stop. I'm very sorry that you or anyone else has been, is, or will be exposed to such destructive nonsense.

 

-CC

[Onyx]

Currentchristian, don't think of us Ex-Christians as arrogant, I'm atheist and I think christianity should stop the hell doctrine and all its vices to be a better religion.

 

I'm sort of like a guy who think anyone can believe what you like as long as it don't harm other people and not forced on to children without their consent. If you want my opinion, I think the age to recieve religion should be 16 because by that age, people know what to do and act accordingly.

 

What you are advocating is really enlightened Christianity but you have saw what some bigoted Christians have done to the gay kids and trying to reversing it. For that, you should be applauded!

 

Yes, Homophobia takes no prisoners, nobody is safe from it but the big three monotheist religions is the biggest advocates of homophobia, its respective stereotypes and they should stop their practices soon as possible and help people for a change. I think gay people is like anyone else, just with the same genitals.

 

I think the causes of homophobia is fundamentalist religion, ignorance, envy, confused feelings, machismo, the "strong slient man" stereotypes, inadequency, money, anger, scapegoating, troubled childhood and indoctrinating.

 

All of these can be put in one sentence. They are stupid and pick on gays because of it.

 

CurrentChristian, keep up the good work, we need more people like you!