Homophobia

[Taphophilia]

Jesus is the Logos (Word of God). I know this only from the Bible, John's gospel. I accept the gospels as reasonably accurate records of the life of Jesus. (I know very few on this forum see it that way and that's fine, of course.) The fact that the gospels are fairly accurate constructions of the life of Jesus (in my understanding) and the epistles are quite accurate representations of the views of Paul and Peter and James and whomever, does not make them the "Word of God." I think Paul would be horrified to have his letters referred to as "the Word of God." I sure would be!

 

Over time, seems to me, the Word of God, Jesus, was replaced in that role by the Bible. While the Bible is an incredible book, in my view, it is just that -- a book. It contains historical, scientific and theological errors. It is not perfect. It is not infallible. It is not inerrant. It does contain "words from God," but it is not the "Word of God."

 

I know you don't see things at all as I do, Mike D, but does my position at least make some sense in terms of being understandable?

 

-CC

 

It is a fact that not a single original manuscript of any book of the bible exists today. Furthermore, by the time the latest book of the bible was written, all of the original manuscripts had long since been worn out and replaced by copies. There were no firsthand copies. They were copies of copies of copies....and on and on. This means that nobody ever saw the entire bible as it was originally written.

 

Even if the original manuscripts were God's Word there is presently no way to determine which parts of the Bible were "words from God".

 

So if the claim is made the scriptures were God's Word in their original manuscripts, it is an empty, meaningless claim today since there is no way to compare the copies of copies of copies to the original manuscripts to verify their accuracy.

[Jella]

All of us need to be less hateful and nasty toward each other. Christians do not have the market on either vice.

Wrong. In America when it comes to making young gay people believe they are an abomination, Christianity most certainly does have the market. I don't recall any atheists protesting at the funerals of murdered gay people rejoicing that they are now buring in hell.

 

 

Those images are burned in my memory. I also remember spending time with an ex of my ex-boyfriend whom was dying of AIDS. He was in a real bad shape, but he and I hit it off and had fun poking fun at my ex, but anyway, about a week later my ex and I had gone to the pride celebration, and out front where the banners, AIDS: GODS PUNISHMENT TO HOMOSEXUALS, and preachers with bull horns. My ex got into it with some of the fundies, screaming at them, and I pulled him away and said don't bother, ( he was a bit pissed at me for that) I just didn't want to think about it. Later that night it was all I could do to try and erase that memory. It wasn't that I hadn't seen those signs before, but being with someone so close to death, just kept it in my thoughts.

 

I remember Mathew Shepard, I couldn't sleep right for weeks after that. All these years I have held in my anger, and have listen to Christians tell me that they were not 'real' Christians. It's only been the last two years that I have let that anger out, and when I point out these autrocities I see and read, they again tell me that the perps were not 'real' Christians. I finally go so pissed I asked how in the hell do I tell. Do they have a real seal stamped across their ass. Well needless to say, I was deemed the person that over-reacted, and was too sensiitve.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

All of us need to be less hateful and nasty toward each other. Christians do not have the market on either vice.

Wrong. In America when it comes to making young gay people believe they are an abomination, Christianity most certainly does have the market. I don't recall any atheists protesting at the funerals of murdered gay people rejoicing that they are now buring in hell.

 

 

Those images are burned in my memory. I also remember spending time with an ex of my ex-boyfriend whom was dying of AIDS. He was in a real bad shape, but he and I hit it off and had fun poking fun at my ex, but anyway, about a week later my ex and I had gone to the pride celebration, and out front where the banners, AIDS: GODS PUNISHMENT TO HOMOSEXUALS, and preachers with bull horns. My ex got into it with some of the fundies, screaming at them, and I pulled him away and said don't bother, ( he was a bit pissed at me for that) I just didn't want to think about it. Later that night it was all I could do to try and erase that memory. It wasn't that I hadn't seen those signs before, but being with someone so close to death, just kept it in my thoughts.

 

I remember Mathew Shepard, I couldn't sleep right for weeks after that. All these years I have held in my anger, and have listen to Christians tell me that they were not 'real' Christians. It's only been the last two years that I have let that anger out, and when I point out these autrocities I see and read, they again tell me that the perps were not 'real' Christians. I finally go so pissed I asked how in the hell do I tell. Do they have a real seal stamped across their ass. Well needless to say, I was deemed the person that over-reacted, and was too sensiitve.

 

 

A fellow Wisconsinite! I assume you were as saddened and embarrassed as I was that we lost on the marriage referendum this past November. Me, because even though I would never consider any sort of legal binding, for the reason that civil unions got the cut too; and no one knew! I had to actually put a copy of the ballot in front of my boss and point out that it completely screwed straights out of an equivalent to marriage, and finally, after getting it through his brain, he said that was fine; only marriage should be legal.

 

On a similar note, my bosses are WELS synod. They treat us employees like some kind of extended family, which is highly annoying sometimes when it comes to personal matters, like one of our former employees being gay. He sent a Christmas letter out telling everyone of his past year (and I can't believe he's been living with his boyfriend for five years; it doesn't seem that long), that he was seeing a counselor for his sexual addiction problem (which we knew he'd had problems with), and that his boyfriend's family was still clueless about them.

 

Next day, my boss comes howling up at me saying I was "sick" for not finding anything wrong with his letter, and that he was telling "the world" about his "sick, perverted problems." Which pissed me off in general, because A: why is this my problem? And B: we're his close friends (or so he'd like to think, I guess). Yes, he could have maybe put it a bit more euphemistically, but saying he had a "sexual addiction that was being treated" is no less ridiculous to me than telling us his drug addiction was being treated. Because he's gay, she doesn't want to hear about it; and if it were drugs, that's somehow a more "public" problem. They're so disgusted about his behaviour, making comments about the time they taught him how to drive (as if sharing a car with one of them when he was sixteen and still considered himself straight would have meant he would have molested a fifty year old man!), about how sick it is that he lives with a man, etc, etc. If he was straight, there would be no problem. Hell, I can't even manage a good relationship, and I'm straight!

[currentchristian]

All of us need to be less hateful and nasty toward each other. Christians do not have the market on either vice.

Wrong. In America when it comes to making young gay people believe they are an abomination, Christianity most certainly does have the market. I don't recall any atheists protesting at the funerals of murdered gay people rejoicing that they are now buring in hell.

 

 

Those images are burned in my memory. I also remember spending time with an ex of my ex-boyfriend whom was dying of AIDS. He was in a real bad shape, but he and I hit it off and had fun poking fun at my ex, but anyway, about a week later my ex and I had gone to the pride celebration, and out front where the banners, AIDS: GODS PUNISHMENT TO HOMOSEXUALS, and preachers with bull horns. My ex got into it with some of the fundies, screaming at them, and I pulled him away and said don't bother, ( he was a bit pissed at me for that) I just didn't want to think about it. Later that night it was all I could do to try and erase that memory. It wasn't that I hadn't seen those signs before, but being with someone so close to death, just kept it in my thoughts.

 

I remember Mathew Shepard, I couldn't sleep right for weeks after that. All these years I have held in my anger, and have listen to Christians tell me that they were not 'real' Christians. It's only been the last two years that I have let that anger out, and when I point out these autrocities I see and read, they again tell me that the perps were not 'real' Christians. I finally go so pissed I asked how in the hell do I tell. Do they have a real seal stamped across their ass. Well needless to say, I was deemed the person that over-reacted, and was too sensiitve.

 

No one in their right mind wants the Phelps family in their group. I don't like the fact that they are in my American group, but they are. I don't like the fact that they are in my Midwest group (I live in MA now), but they are. I don't like that they are in my fill-in-the-blank group, but they are. I remember the words of John: "If anyone says he loves God and hates his brother, he is a liar and the truth is not in him." It seems to me that "the truth" is not in the Phelps family.

 

I don't know the religious affiliation, if any, of the two who murdered Matthew Shepherd. But I hope for that day in which these two are resurrected, along with Matthew Shepherd, to stand at the bar of justice. I hope for a day in which God sets everything right. In the meantime, while God is not known to be doing that, we have every obligation to do all we can to make things right. Opposing religious homophobia is crucial.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

Currentchristian, don't think of us Ex-Christians as arrogant, I'm atheist and I think christianity should stop the hell doctrine and all its vices to be a better religion.

 

I'm sort of like a guy who think anyone can believe what you like as long as it don't harm other people and not forced on to children without their consent. If you want my opinion, I think the age to recieve religion should be 16 because by that age, people know what to do and act accordingly.

 

What you are advocating is really enlightened Christianity but you have saw what some bigoted Christians have done to the gay kids and trying to reversing it. For that, you should be applauded!

 

Yes, Homophobia takes no prisoners, nobody is safe from it but the big three monotheist religions is the biggest advocates of homophobia, its respective stereotypes and they should stop their practices soon as possible and help people for a change. I think gay people is like anyone else, just with the same genitals.

 

I think the causes of homophobia is fundamentalist religion, ignorance, envy, confused feelings, machismo, the "strong slient man" stereotypes, inadequency, money, anger, scapegoating, troubled childhood and indoctrinating.

 

All of these can be put in one sentence. They are stupid and pick on gays because of it.

 

CurrentChristian, keep up the good work, we need more people like you!

 

Thank you for your encouragement and kind words. I agree wholeheartedly: Religion must stop making hay over gay people!

 

-CC

[Jella]

A fellow Wisconsinite! I assume you were as saddened and embarrassed as I was that we lost on the marriage referendum this past November.

 

Yes I sure was. The only bright spot I've seen for my state has been Sen. Feingold.

 

Onyx, the only thing I can say is thank you!

 

I was a bit nervous as to how I was going to be recieved in the non-christian world, as a gay man, but reading through this tread has helped ease those worries. The responses, not only here but at Atheist blogs, have been positive and it truly helps me in the journey out of my depressive state of christianity. I'm not so naive to think that other non-christians don't have an issue with homosexuality, and that's fair. I just hope that I and others can help them see us as human beings. I hope that they do feel they can post their views, because I really do want to know, and maybe I/we can help. I was a homophobe before I came out, and I still have a bit of shame about that, but I was young an needed to be accepted, because I was emotionally needy.

 

CC, I thank you for all your doing for these kids.

[Mike D]

Doctrine is a principle or position or teaching one takes or embraces or expresses. Atheism is the position/principle that there are no gods or that one does not believe in gods. These are doctrines of atheism.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. And wrong again. Atheism is simply a disbelief in god(s), nothing more nothing less. It isn't a "teaching" or a "principle" or anything of the sort. And a "position" doesn't require a "doctrine".

 

To illustrate my point, do you disbelieve in hobbits? If so, which doctrines or teachings of hobbit disbelief do you follow?

[currentchristian]

Doctrine is a principle or position or teaching one takes or embraces or expresses. Atheism is the position/principle that there are no gods or that one does not believe in gods. These are doctrines of atheism.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. And wrong again. Atheism is simply a disbelief in god(s), nothing more nothing less. It isn't a "teaching" or a "principle" or anything of the sort. And a "position" doesn't require a "doctrine".

 

To illustrate my point, do you disbelieve in hobbits? If so, which doctrines or teachings of hobbit disbelief do you follow?

 

You again?

 

I'm using "doctrine" in the sense of the Truman Doctrine or the Bush Doctrine or the Reagan Doctrine. Not in the sense of a belief or religious view or any such thing.

 

A doctrine, simply put, is a position.

 

We can just leave it as a semantic difference of opinion. How's that?

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

CC, I thank you for all your doing for these kids.

 

You are very welcome, Jella. There's much to be done.

 

-CC

[Mike D]

You again?

Problem?

 

I was here long before you arrived on this site, and I am sure i'll be here long after you leave, too.

[currentchristian]

You again?

Problem?

 

I was here long before you arrived on this site, and I am sure i'll be here long after you leave, too.

 

No problem, Mike D.

 

-CC

[currentchristian]

Today's NYT:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

December 18, 2006

Episcopal Parishes in Virginia Vote to Secede

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

 

Two large and influential Episcopal parishes in Virginia voted overwhelmingly yesterday to leave the Episcopal Church and to affiliate with the Anglican archbishop of Nigeria, a conservative leader in a churchwide fight over homosexuality.

 

Five smaller churches in Virginia also announced yesterday that they had voted to secede, joining four others that have already left and three more expected to announce their decisions soon. Some affiliated with other archbishops in Africa.

 

The secessions could lead to battles over the churches’ property, although both sides say they want to avoid legal fights. The move is also likely to escalate divisions in the worldwide Anglican Communion, a 77-million-member alliance in which the Episcopal Church is the American branch.

 

The Rev. Martyn Minns, rector at one of the two large parishes, Truro Church in Fairfax, said at a news conference: “A burden is being lifted. There are new possibilities breaking through.”

 

Clergy members at some of these churches have for many years criticized what they regard as a leftward drift in the Episcopal Church and saw the consecration of an openly gay bishop in New Hampshire in 2003 as the last straw.

 

Episcopal Church leaders tried to persuade them that the church could accommodate everyone. The conservatives are a minority in a denomination with 7,200 congregations in 100 dioceses in the United States. Since 2003, about 36 other churches have left, according to the Episcopal News Service. Several dioceses have also taken steps toward separation.

 

Most of the breakaway churches in Virginia are joining the Convocation of Anglicans in North America, an offshoot of the Nigerian church led by the archbishop of Nigeria, Peter J. Akinola.

 

But there is a dispute over whether other leaders in the communion will recognize the legitimacy of the convocation. Under Anglican rules and traditions, bishops are not to take control of churches outside their geographical boundaries from the recognized presiding bishops.

 

Father Minns was consecrated by Archbishop Akinola this year as a bishop in the Nigerian church to lead the convocation in the United States, in the hope that other disaffected churches would gather under that banner.

 

Bishop Peter James Lee of the Diocese of Virginia, where the Episcopal Church has had roots for nearly 400 years, said his diocese had worked to keep the disaffected churches in the fold.

 

“The votes today have compromised these discussions and have created Nigerian congregations occupying Episcopal churches,” Bishop Lee said. “This is not the future of the Episcopal Church envisioned by our forebears.”

 

The bishop also said that, under church law, parish property was “held in trust” for the denomination and the diocese. “As stewards of this historic trust, we fully intend to assert the church’s canonical and legal rights over these properties,” he said.

 

Ninety-two percent of the parishioners who cast ballots at Truro Church, and 90 percent at the Falls Church, which is in Falls Church, voted to pull out.

 

Sarah R. Bartenstein, a member of the standing committee for the Diocese of Virginia, said the diocese was concerned about the members of the departing churches who did not want to leave and had no other Episcopal parish in their community.

 

“They have been unfortunately overlooked in all of this,” Ms. Bartenstein said.

 

 

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/us/18epi...amp;oref=slogin

[southdakota2005]

It took me all of about ten seconds to get over my dislike of homosexuals. Once I was freed from the bible, it was easy.

[currentchristian]

Ran across this Web site today:

 

The Epistle: A Web Magazine for Christian Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender People.

 

In particular, the section "Homosexuality and the Bible" might be of interest to some. Here's the link to it.

 

-CC in MA

[Dhampir]

Realistically, there's no way those passages can't be construed to mean what other christians want, no matter how many counter explanations you offer up. The majority of christianity believes otherwise, and regardless of what you think, you're no more christian than the ones who disagree with you.

 

Ultimately, this is just more evidence that there's a different god for every believer.

[currentchristian]

Realistically, there's no way those passages can't be construed to mean what other christians want, no matter how many counter explanations you offer up. The majority of christianity believes otherwise, and regardless of what you think, you're no more christian than the ones who disagree with you.

 

Ultimately, this is just more evidence that there's a different god for every believer.

 

I agree with you in reference to the Leviticus 18 & 20 and Romans 1 passages. The others can be explained away without doing damage to the text. It seems clear, however, that the ancient Israelites and Paul the apostle had no tolerance for homosexuality.

 

-CC in MA

[Pegasus_Voyager]

I was so homophobic as a Christian, I wouldn't touch myself!LOL! But shortly before de-conversion, I got involved in a relationship with a dominatrix (A Christian dominatrix, if you can believe that). She took me to a gay BDSM (S & M) club meeting, where I met many gays. I thought "Oh, wow, these guys are human beings too". Many had AIDS. I always had a compassionate altruistic nature, but my anti-gay Evangelical brain-washing diverted feeings of compassion away from these people. For the first time, my heart ached for these people. She took me to a gay bar, and I was flat-out petrified, thinking I was going to be approached or even accosted. After a while I loosened up, and realized that they were not reprobates. A little racy, yeah, but not reprobates!*S* I sang karaoke at the this bar, and even sang "Sweet Transvestite From Transsexual Transylvania". Now that takes SERIOUS BALLS when you're straight!lol. But as far as same-gender marriage being legalized, I was completely opposed to it until I found out it wasn't mandatory!*SMILE*

[currentchristian]

Source: Advocate.com

 

01/27/07-01/29/07

 

Moscow mayor vows never to permit gay parade, calls it "satanic"

 

Moscow's mayor vowed Monday never to allow a gay rights parade, calling such events "satanic," but activists said they would defy a city ban to hold what would be the Russian capital's first gay rights parade. Yury Luzhkov and city authorities had barred activists from staging a parade last year, citing the threat of violence. Activists ignored the ban, and were pummeled by right-wing protesters and detained by police.

 

Speaking at a Kremlin event attended by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Luzhkov again lambasted gay and lesbian groups. "Last year, Moscow came under unprecedented pressure to sanction the gay parade, which can be described in no other way than as satanic," he said to applause in comments broadcast on a city-controlled TV channel. "We did not let the parade take place then, and we are not going to allow it in the future."

 

He also charged that Western countries were facing a crisis of religious faith and were corrupting children. "Some European nations bless single-sex marriages and introduce sexual guides in schools. Such things are a deadly moral poison for children," RIA-Novosti quoted Luzhkov as saying.

 

Meanwhile, Russian gay activists said they were challenging the city's ban of their parade in an appeal to the European Court for Human Rights, and pledged to hold a similar march in late May. "Trying to silence us, the Russian authorities denied us one of the fundamental human rights. The European justice will have the last say in this case," activist and parade organizer Nikolai Alexeyev said in a statement posted on the Web site gayrussia.ru.

 

The issue of holding a gay parade last year split Moscow's gay community, many of whom say that Russian society is still too conservative and a parade would only provoke more violence from radical groups. Gay rights activists estimate that 5-8 percent of Russia's 143 million people are gay and lesbian. (AP)

[Guest sunpaws]

Not having children, usually, gay people have more money to play with. Unless you have a sister with three kids, as I do, and you are the uncle who gets to help buy their senior rings, and their flute, and .... you know where I'm going... But I'd not have it any other way. Every family should have one gay uncle or lesbian aunt (or at least a childless aunt or uncle) to help take care of all the kids of all the brothers and sisters in the family!

 

Actually, I read somewhere once (will have to find the reference) that some evolutionary biologists proposed that this was a possible reason for homosexuality existing in human (and other animals') populations. The basic idea was that if you had about 10% of your group who, under normal circumstances (i.e., they weren't forced to get hitched and make babies by some kind of fucked up moral code) didn't reproduce, they could channel their energy into securing resources for the group as a whole and helping with childrearing, so that their nieces and nephews would have a better chance of survival.

 

As they wouldn't be making any babies themselves, their family could get all the benefits of their labor without having to support additional children--while those who were homosexual ensured their genetic fitness through their nieces and nephews, who shared some of their genes and presumably had better chances of passing them on if Uncle or Aunt So-and-So didn't waste any resources on kids of their own.

 

Anybody else ever hear this idea? (Sorry if it's already been mentioned and I've double-posted it.) Of course it still doesn't really explain bisexuals like myself....unless bisexuals are just Nature's standbys--like, we're willing to shack up and make babies if need be, or we can shack up without making babies and that's cool, too. I guess we're just flexible...

 

 

And in answer to the original topic of this thread, I used to be extremely homophobic as a Christian....then I figured out I'm bi, and the whole Christian thing just kinda fell apart. (Apparently I highly value my freedom to get off without feelings of guilt. ) And now homophobia is not a problem!

[currentchristian]

Sunpaws, I like your Carl Sagan quote a lot.

 

-CC in MA

[Guest sunpaws]

Sunpaws, I like your Carl Sagan quote a lot.

 

-CC in MA

 

 

Sweet. If you like that quote, and haven't done so already, you really should read the book (The Demon Haunted World--Science as a Candle in the Dark)--it's excellent writing, and he does a wonderful job explaining why science and rational ways of thinking are so very important, especially in a society increasingly reliant on technology.

 

Also, a lot of what he says (like the quote in my sig) touches on the reasons I consider myself a naturalistic pantheist. Science (especially, for me, astronomy) can inspire a kind of awe and wonder that conventional religions barely tap--as a pantheist science really IS the source of my spirituality. I mean, who doesn't feel, as Sagan calls it, "that soaring feeling" when looking at and pondering this, this or this? (Well, for me it's more like the feeling of falling from a height... *goosebumps*)

 

So yeah, like I said, if you haven't read his stuff already, I highly recommend any of Sagan's books.

 

Hmm...that wasn't off topic at all, was it?

[currentchristian]

...

I mean, who doesn't feel, as Sagan calls it, "that soaring feeling" when looking at and pondering this, this or this?

...

 

The photos you linked to were extraordinary. When I consider the heavens . . .

 

-CC in MA

[Guest sunpaws]

The photos you linked to were extraordinary. When I consider the heavens . . .

 

-CC in MA

 

 

Check out HubbleSite's Gallery--they've got a ton of amazing pictures. They've also got a cute little triva game involving an astronaut cow, and an interactive Journey to a Black Hole--click on the tab that says "The Voyage" for a good idea of just how spacious outerspace really is.

[currentchristian]

February 02, 2007

 

Poll: 55 percent of Americans support letting gays serve openly in military

 

A new poll shows for the first time that a majority of Americans support allowing gays to serve openly in the military. The Harris Interactive survey reveals that 55 percent of those polled say openly gay people should be allowed to serve in the military, and 57 percent agreed with former joint chiefs of staff chairman John Shalikashvili's assertion last month that openly gay people will "not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces," the Wall Street Journal reports.

 

Only 19 percent of those polled said that gays could serve if they kept their sexual orientation secret, and 18 percent said they shouldn't be allowed to serve at all. In 2000, 48 percent said that gays should be allowed to serve openly.

 

On the specific question of "don't ask, don't tell," the military's official ban on openly gay servicemembers, 46 percent of respondents said they opposed the policy, the same as in 2000.

 

The survey of 2,337 Americans was conducted between January 11 and 18. (The Advocate)

 

Source: http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid41695.asp

[Sparrow]

According to Merriam-Webster (m-w.com), "homophobia" is the "irrational fear of, aversion to, or

…..

homophobia? (Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.)

 

-CC in MA

 

Hi,

 

I’ve read through some replies and some of your answers and can’t quite figure out if you a gay-christian or just a christian.

 

As a person who often, it seems, visits this site you’ve probably discovered that many of us here have studied the bible and christian apologetics quite well. Some of us have given up christianity totally and moved to other beliefs and some no longer have any belief. I personally went through the end of Christianity to spirituality to no longer believing.

 

What I can’t understand is why you’re asking this.

 

Yes, you’ve asked the question of ……. “Does anyone who has freed him/herself from what s/he perceives to be the shackles of religion oppose equal marriage laws, protection of gay/lesbian rights, etc.? Does anyone struggle with homophobia? (Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.)” ….. however, to be honest, I still don’t really understand what you’re asking.

 

I mean, sure, there are atheists or agnostics who are anti-homosexual, but excuse me, that is bleedingly obvious – you’ve just to look on the internet. They’re there.

 

But, what do you want? What are you after with this question?

 

Like you said, “Don’t worry to state what you really think as we’re all anonymous here.”, so what are you really after?

 

Since I don’t really know, I can only guess why you’ve asked this – and more than likely, my guess would be wrong.

 

So, giving it my best guess, and apologizing if it is wrong in advance, I suspect that you’re a gay-christian that is struggling with your faith.

 

If that is so, and again apologies if it is wrong, please understand that most people here, at least on this site, don’t seem to really care about human sexuality. They seem very well balanced, normal people who have struggled with a belief that they no longer find pertinent or appropriate in their lives.

 

If you are indeed struggling with your faith, then perhaps here is a good site for you as most people here it seems, don’t worry if you’re gay and they’ll certainly lend a sympathetic ear if you’re having trouble with your faith.

 

They’re all pretty good folk – who have had trouble with their faith … and well, they good people.

 

Do understand though that if you are yet another of the endless list of christians who come here trying to show superior knowledge, then you in for a hell of a beating. I can nearly guarantee that the people on this site know the bible better than you do. You’d have to be an exceptional person to better them, so expect a thrashing if you think otherwise.

 

Either way, please explain, if you can, what it is that you are really asking and I’m sure the people here will be very willing to help.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz