Homophobia

[necrosmith]

Some of the greatest people I know are homosexuals. I'm on a hockey team with three lesbians, which absolutely rules.

 

I don't know a whole lot of people who get to say they play with three lesbians at a time.

 

Never met one I didn't like (homosexuals that is).

 

To be honest, I don't even think of someone as straight or gay. I think of them as cool people I like to hang out with.

[currentchristian]

Dear Spatz,

 

Thank you for such a long reply.

 

My motive for asking this question primarily was one of curiosity. Secondarily, I wanted to know what role religion, particularly Christianity, plays in anti-homosexuality. Since so many here were Christian at one point in their lives, I thought they'd be quite good ones to ask this question of. That's it. Nothing more or less -- that I am conscious of.

 

You wondered about two things. I'll answer. Yep, I'm gay.* Yep, I'm Christian. I have lots of questions, for sure, but no crisis. I do not struggle with my faith. Thank you, though, for your kindness and concern.

 

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, except maybe to be as open minded as we want others to be. But I'll be careful to protect myself from a thrashing!

 

Thanks for giving this such thought.

 

*But I'm not Ellen and I'm not Jesus dancing with Ellen!

 

-CC in MA

[currentchristian]

...

Never met one I didn't like (homosexuals that is).

 

To be honest, I don't even think of someone as straight or gay. I think of them as cool people I like to hang out with.

 

Oh, I have. I know several gay people I don't really enjoy being around! Maybe I know more gay people than you do!

 

I think we are moving beyond all these potentially divisive categories around race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc. It's a good thing.*

 

*Not her, either.

 

-CC in MA

[Sparrow]

Dear Spatz,

 

...

 

-CC in MA

 

 

Well, you're most welcome. Curiosity I can understand.

 

Now, however, I've discovered another thing I don't understand: *But I'm not Ellen and I'm not Jesus dancing with Ellen!

 

Excuse me, but Huhn??? I don't get it. I'm not really an english speaker, so apologies.

 

I have another question though, it is about how you correlate or internally justify you sexuality with christianity.

 

I mean, I know that there are certianly items in the Bible that seemingly point to gay relationships, but the fact is the Bibe in it's current interpretation can be interpreted as being quite strongly anti-gay. How do you internaize this?

 

Thanks (now I'm curious)

 

Spatz

[currentchristian]

Well, you're most welcome. Curiosity I can understand.

 

Now, however, I've discovered another thing I don't understand: *But I'm not Ellen and I'm not Jesus dancing with Ellen!

 

Excuse me, but Huhn??? I don't get it. I'm not really an english speaker, so apologies.

 

I have another question though, it is about how you correlate or internally justify you sexuality with christianity.

 

I mean, I know that there are certianly items in the Bible that seemingly point to gay relationships, but the fact is the Bibe in it's current interpretation can be interpreted as being quite strongly anti-gay. How do you internaize this?

 

Thanks (now I'm curious)

 

Spatz

 

Sorry about that. I'm being America-centric. Ellen is a well-known comedienne/actor/talk-who host who announced she was gay in that famous TIME magazine cover story. She now has a daytime talk show on which she dances with many of her guests.

 

Your second question has a longer answer and I think it pretty well has been covered in this topic and others.

 

Short story: My personal experience trumps the views of the holiness code in Leviticus and Paul's words in Romans I. Those are really the only two anti-homosexuality passages, and they can't be "explained away." But they just don't seem to apply in my experience or in that of many other gay/lesbian men and women who also are Christian.

 

-CC in MA

[The Sage Nabooru]

I would like to add here that homophobia is not a uniquely religious phenomenon.

 

In fact like a lot of hatreds and prejudices and additudes it seems to have its roots more in the person itself than in his or her superficial belief system.

 

In fact I feel I've come onto quite a revelation recently, that when it comes all down to it if and what particular belief system a person may or may not ascribe to, is rather only superficially related to who they are as a person. Let me explain. A person can be a mean, arrogant jerk as a Christian, and then convert to atheism, and become a mean, arrogant jerk of an atheist. The person remains the same, only the outward beliefs have changed. It is in this way that certain people will always find a reason to kill even in the most forgiving of circumstances and others can live under the shadow of the most apparently damning belief system and still not find it in their hearts to harm a flea.

 

I have known homophobic atheists, myself. I've known atheists whose "morals" concerning sexuality would make the average Christian look like Madonna. (For an example, go look at pictures of Soviet swimsuits......whoa!) In fact my best friend is an atheist who could be described as somewhat of a prude. At least sex makes her a lot more nervous and giggly than it does me.

[Sparrow]

Short story: My personal experience trumps the views of the holiness code in Leviticus and Paul's words in Romans I. Those are really the only two anti-homosexuality passages, and they can't be "explained away." But they just don't seem to apply in my experience or in that of many other gay/lesbian men and women who also are Christian.

 

-CC in MA

 

 

That's fair and understandable.

 

Personal experience I think is always a good trump-card.

 

I appreciate your very straight forward answer.

 

Best Regards

 

Spatz

[currentchristian]

This is a very interesting point, Sage Nabooru. I'd like to see some data/stats/studies on this very issue. I do think that some attitudes are hightened or reinforced or underscored by one's theism or atheism or whateverism, but I don't know how much. Absolutley you are right, however, that one can find Mother Teresa atheists and Adolf Hitler theists and vice versa.

 

Hmmm....anyone have handy some psycholocial/sociological studies about this -- how one's extraneous belief/non-belief systems are a reflection of or an influence in one's personality, attitudes, etc.?

 

-CC in MA

[currentchristian]

That's fair and understandable.

 

Personal experience I think is always a good trump-card.

 

I appreciate your very straight forward answer.

 

Best Regards

 

Spatz

 

I appreciate your neutrality, Spatz. Very Switzerlandish of you.

 

I look forward to hearing from you more often.

 

-CC in MA

[I Broke Free]

Actually, I read somewhere once (will have to find the reference) that some evolutionary biologists proposed that this was a possible reason for homosexuality existing in human (and other animals') populations. The basic idea was that if you had about 10% of your group who, under normal circumstances (i.e., they weren't forced to get hitched and make babies by some kind of fucked up moral code) didn't reproduce, they could channel their energy into securing resources for the group as a whole and helping with childrearing, so that their nieces and nephews would have a better chance of survival.

 

As they wouldn't be making any babies themselves, their family could get all the benefits of their labor without having to support additional children--while those who were homosexual ensured their genetic fitness through their nieces and nephews, who shared some of their genes and presumably had better chances of passing them on if Uncle or Aunt So-and-So didn't waste any resources on kids of their own.

 

Anybody else ever hear this idea? (Sorry if it's already been mentioned and I've double-posted it.) Of course it still doesn't really explain bisexuals like myself....unless bisexuals are just Nature's standbys--like, we're willing to shack up and make babies if need be, or we can shack up without making babies and that's cool, too. I guess we're just flexible...

 

Thanks for brining this up Sunpaws. I have never read anything about this theory, but it something I was thinking of on my own. Many people assume that the “gay gene” is impossible because few homosexuals reproduce and therefore the gene would disappear. What they fail to realize is that throughout most of human history we lived in small bands of mostly related people. In this kind of environment any genetic characteristic that fosters the survival ‘the group’ will be passed on to ‘the group.’

 

I can certainly see an advantage to having the gay uncle stay behind with the women while most of men went off hunting (proving their manhood and providing only a small portion of the calories). These gay uncles could do much of the heavy work around the campsite and protect the kids from predators and other dangers, such as marauding numskulls from other areas proving their manhood.

 

IBF

 

 

If you are offended by the statement “It takes a village to raise a child” then please stop taxing me to educate your kids.

[Sparrow]

I appreciate your neutrality, Spatz. Very Switzerlandish of you.

 

I look forward to hearing from you more often.

 

-CC in MA

 

Again, my pleasure and you're most welcome, but really there is no need to thank me. I'm actually very, very pro "equal rights".

 

I really think GLTB people in the USA get the bad end of the stick for nothing more than political reasons and for what someone believes. Of course, what makes it a little easier is that I was born intersexed and consequently understand what persecution and having to keep a secret means.

 

Please don't be too offended, but ultimately I think religion is bad and children shouldn't be exposed to it till they're over 18 years of age. I also get quite irate when I see the religious right lying about scientific aspects and getting involved in politics. In reality though, if it doesn't cross my life in any detrimental way, then I don't really care what people believe.

 

All the best, and best of luck!

 

Spatz

[Taphophilia]

Sparrow,

 

What is intersexed?

 

I was taught in my church to believe that GBLT are demon influenced and and gave their lives over to evil and homosexuality was a choice.

 

When I deconverted from Christianity, I had to start from scratch, wipe the slate blank, and decide what MY opinoin really was. If it weren't for Christianity influencing and telling me what opinoins to have, I know that I never would have hated people that I don't know and I am very ashamed that at one time I did.

 

I am a much more moral person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.

 

Taph

[LosingMyReligion]

Intersexed is when one is born with ambiguous genetalia(the more polite term for "hermaphrodite").

 

Anyway, what I don't understand is how people can agree that people are born intersexed but think that we gays and lesbians choose our orientation.

[Sparrow]

Sparrow,

 

What is intersexed?

 

I was taught in my church to believe that GBLT are demon influenced and and gave their lives over to evil and homosexuality was a choice.

 

When I deconverted from Christianity, I had to start from scratch, wipe the slate blank, and decide what MY opinoin really was. If it weren't for Christianity influencing and telling me what opinoins to have, I know that I never would have hated people that I don't know and I am very ashamed that at one time I did.

 

I am a much more moral person as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.

 

Taph

 

Hi Taph,

 

It’s more or less as LosingMyReligion says it. In the past people like me were called hermaphrodites, though the more correct medical definition today is intersexed as it describes a wider spectrum of aspects than just ambiguous genitalia.

 

Without going into too much detail I was raised initially as a boy and later, because of a medical problem that resulted out of trying to “fix” my genitalia when I was baby, nearly dying when I was 12. It resulted in me being raised as a girl from then on and enjoying life for the first time I could remember.

 

Eventually, it was probably the final reason I ultimately left Christianity. After trying to reconcile all the other incongruities of faith and then my personal reality and experience …. and invariably failing, I had to ask why would god allow a person like me exist when it was clearly not biblical acceptable.

 

The other thing of course is that on the few times I’ve mistakenly told christian friends my situation, it inevitably wound up in a form of persecution – sometimes very strong, sometimes very subtle.

 

Thanks anyway for asking.

 

Spatz

[Sparrow]

Hi LMR,

 

Intersexed is when one is born with ambiguous genetalia(the more polite term for "hermaphrodite").

 

Hmmmm ... not quite. It's actually a bit broader than ambigous genitalia. As I mentioned to Taph, intersexed is a word used to describe a whole spectrum of primary, secondary and tertiary gender and genitalia characteristics.

 

Anyway, what I don't understand is how people can agree that people are born intersexed but think that we gays and lesbians choose our orientation.

 

Don't want to argue with you - because we're on the same ex-christian side and certainly I can only comment about my own personal experience, but I don't think that is entirely true.

 

From my perspective and it seems pretty consistent with the few other individuals like myself that I've met, there has been really very little understanding.

 

I've been called everything from a damned lesbian to a disgusting homo to the local freak in some situations. I've been threatened and as a child, beaten up for being effeminate, etc.

 

I've also been told things like that since I was half and half I'd never really know what it was like to be a woman ... and vice verse. Please keep in mind that I don't feel myself to be anything but a woman and have the same problems as any other woman.

 

So no, I don't think people are as understanding as you think they are.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz

[currentchristian]

Dear Spatz,

 

I'm very sorry to read of the many examples of intolerance, ignorance and bigotry you write of.

 

Sometimes, here in the States, we have an idea that things are so much better somewhere else...in Cananda...in Europe...in...

 

I have always held the view that we're all pretty much the same. Of course, there are advances that one may find in Cananda on some issues or in Europe on some issues or, don't tell the French! , in America on some issues. We all have our weaknesses and strengths.

 

My hope is that one day in the very near future, there will be much more understanding around all of these "sexual" issues and that we can all be who we are -- freely, openly, happily.

 

-CC in MA

[Sparrow]

Dear Spatz,

 

....

 

-CC in MA

 

Hi CC,

 

Please understand, I'm not trying to get a sympathy response. I'm really just explaining my situation. Honestly, most of my troubles happened long ago and it's really water under the bridge. I'm 46 now and have gone on with my life quite well.

 

It took a long time to get over the religious stuff, but I eventually managed to dump that as not helping in life.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz

[currentchristian]

Dear Spatz,

 

....

 

-CC in MA

 

Hi CC,

 

Please understand, I'm not trying to get a sympathy response. I'm really just explaining my situation. Honestly, most of my troubles happened long ago and it's really water under the bridge. I'm 46 now and have gone on with my life quite well.

 

It took a long time to get over the religious stuff, but I eventually managed to dump that as not helping in life.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz

 

You'll get no sympathy from me!

 

You will get my best wishes and support and hope for a new day in which all are valued no matter what.

 

-CC in MA

[LosingMyReligion]

Hi LMR,

 

Intersexed is when one is born with ambiguous genetalia(the more polite term for "hermaphrodite").

 

Hmmmm ... not quite. It's actually a bit broader than ambigous genitalia. As I mentioned to Taph, intersexed is a word used to describe a whole spectrum of primary, secondary and tertiary gender and genitalia characteristics.

 

Anyway, what I don't understand is how people can agree that people are born intersexed but think that we gays and lesbians choose our orientation.

 

Don't want to argue with you - because we're on the same ex-christian side and certainly I can only comment about my own personal experience, but I don't think that is entirely true.

 

From my perspective and it seems pretty consistent with the few other individuals like myself that I've met, there has been really very little understanding.

 

I've been called everything from a damned lesbian to a disgusting homo to the local freak in some situations. I've been threatened and as a child, beaten up for being effeminate, etc.

 

I've also been told things like that since I was half and half I'd never really know what it was like to be a woman ... and vice verse. Please keep in mind that I don't feel myself to be anything but a woman and have the same problems as any other woman.

 

So no, I don't think people are as understanding as you think they are.

 

Thanks

 

Spatz

 

 

Oh I definitely agree with you. No arguments here.

 

What I meant was that a few bigots actually agree that intersexed people are a real phenomenon. However, they can't even fathom that someone is actually born oriented towards the same gender...if that makes any sense?

 

Anyway, I agree with your entire post. There is ignorance across the board when it comes to human sexuality.

 

I am glad that you have found happiness in your skin.

[currentchristian]

Today's NYT...

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

February 7, 2007

Ousted Pastor ‘Completely Heterosexual’

By NEELA BANERJEE

 

Forced by a gay sex scandal to resign as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Rev. Ted Haggard now feels that after three weeks of intensive counseling, he is “completely heterosexual,” says an overseer of the megachurch Mr. Haggard once led.

 

The church official, the Rev. Tim Ralph, said in an interview published yesterday by The Denver Post that Mr. Haggard had also told the board of overseers that his only sexual relationship involving another man had been with Michael Jones, the onetime Denver prostitute who exposed that three-year affair last fall. Mr. Jones said then that he was making it public because Mr. Haggard had acted hypocritically in promoting a constitutional amendment to bar same-sex marriage.

 

Mr. Haggard, who as a result of the scandal was ousted by the overseers in November as senior pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, broke a three-month silence over the weekend when he contacted members of the church by e-mail to tell them that he was healing.

 

His three weeks of counseling, in Phoenix, felt like “three years’ worth of analysis and treatment,” but now “Jesus is starting to put me back together,” Mr. Haggard wrote in the e-mail message, which was published in The Colorado Springs Gazette on Monday.

 

“I have spent so much time in repentance, brokenness, hurt and sorrow for the things I’ve done and the negative impact my actions have had on others,” he said.

 

Mr. Haggard could not be reached for comment yesterday. Mr. Ralph declined through a spokeswoman to comment, and there was no response to telephone calls and e-mail to another overseer or to a New Life spokesman. But Mr. Ralph told The Denver Post that Mr. Haggard had come out of the counseling convinced of his heterosexuality.

 

“He is completely heterosexual,” Mr. Ralph told The Post, adding that Mr. Haggard’s homosexual activity had not been “a constant thing.”

 

Dr. Jack Drescher, a New York psychiatrist who is an expert on issues of gender and sexuality, said that while it was people’s prerogative to identify their sexual orientation as they wanted, the notion of being able to change that orientation was “not consistent with clinical presentations, but totally consistent with theological belief.”

 

“Some people in the community that Mr. Haggard comes from believe homosexuality is a form of behavior, a sinful form of behavior based on certain things in the Bible, and they don’t believe you can create a healthy identity based on sinful behavior,” Dr. Drescher said. “So they define it as a behavior that can be changed, and there is this thinking that if you control those behaviors enough, heterosexual attractions will follow.”

 

Mr. Haggard said in his message to New Life members that he and his wife were taking online courses to get master’s degrees in psychology, and Mr. Ralph told The Post that the oversight board had recommended to Mr. Haggard that he take up secular work.

[Ex-COG]

Forced by a gay sex scandal to resign as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Rev. Ted Haggard now feels that after three weeks of intensive counseling, he is “completely heterosexual,” says an overseer of the megachurch Mr. Haggard once led.

Ummmm...what's the name of that river in Egypt?

[currentchristian]

Ummmm...what's the name of that river in Egypt?

 

Mr. Haggard's (I love how the NYT still uses these courtesy titles!) errors were many, being bisexual or homosexual or whatever is not among them. But it is a long river in Egypt and many are on it floating merrily along taken away by the strong current. Of course we're all on that same river about one thing or another -- or a few dozen.

 

Questions, Ex-COG:

 

1. Does COG stand for Church of God? Or something else?

 

2. I've red the Tao Te Ching a couple of times. In fact, just the other evening I read many passages aloud to my growing more and more bored partner until he couldn't take it any longer and ran to the nearest television he could find. What a wonderful work it is and how sensible, too. What is Taoism -- to you? How does it inform your life and alter your views or behavior or ideas or plans? How did you come to "find" it?

 

If you get the time, thanks.

 

-CC in MA

[LosingMyReligion]

Ted Haggard had his psychiatrist(that he pays)to tell the world he is completely hetero...

 

 

Yeah right, and I have farmland for sale on Pluto.

 

The only thing that he has massaged was his prostate.

 

Whatever, he'll be forgiven and continue to fleece millions out of billions in da name of Jebus...

He'll just be more discreet with his hot male lovers from now on.

[currentchristian]

Hi Ex-COG, Just came across this parallel version of the Tao Te Ching. Just passing it on.

 

http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing.html

 

-CC in MA

[Ex-COG]

Ummmm...what's the name of that river in Egypt?

 

Mr. Haggard's (I love how the NYT still uses these courtesy titles!) errors were many, being bisexual or homosexual or whatever is not among them. But it is a long river in Egypt and many are on it floating merrily along taken away by the strong current. Of course we're all on that same river about one thing or another -- or a few dozen.

 

Questions, Ex-COG:

 

1. Does COG stand for Church of God? Or something else?

 

2. I've red the Tao Te Ching a couple of times. In fact, just the other evening I read many passages aloud to my growing more and more bored partner until he couldn't take it any longer and ran to the nearest television he could find. What a wonderful work it is and how sensible, too. What is Taoism -- to you? How does it inform your life and alter your views or behavior or ideas or plans? How did you come to "find" it?

 

If you get the time, thanks.

 

-CC in MA

1. COG does stand for Church of God, which has headquarters in Anderson IN. It is not the pentecostal Church of God, Cleveland TN. A lot of people assume all COG's are pentecostal, as they are the larger group.

 

2. I first learned about Taoism when I found copies of Benjamin Hoff's The Tao of Pooh and The Te of Piglet in (of all places) a Catholic thrift shop. I read them and found the philosophy much more refreshing and freeing than what I had been following (I was still a church member at this time). Since then, I've learned a bit more here and there, but I'm by no means any type of expert. You can find all sorts of different takes on Taoism, including forms that follow a religious tradition when Taoism was combined with the traditional Chinese system of Gods. But many who study the Tao, and this probably includes most Americans who do, just consider it a philosophy of life. Some are believers in God, others are agnostics and atheists. It's an all enclusive system! I am on a Taoist forum, and believe me, we have disagreements!

 

In a nutshell (and according to my understanding), The Tao is The Way of Water. You must flow with life like water flows. The basic principles are unity, relativity, and change. I also think of it as the Way of Nature. Instead of having a personal God who interacts in his creation and had made a separate ruling class (mankind) over it, The Tao is simply What Is. It's the way the wolf stalks the deer, the way a spider weaves its web to catch the fly, the way the wind and water wears the rock. Learn to cooperate in harmony with the Tao/the Nature of Things, and peace and balance will be acheived. Note that peace and balance does not mean anything harmful or damaging won't happen; the wolf still kills the deer, the spider still snares the fly, the wind and water still erodes the rock. Everything has its time and place. Humans are part of nature, and one act of the play being performed. Thus, like the wolf, the spider, the wind and the water, humans find themselves as the active side of nature; and later in the scheme of things, humans are like the deer, the fly, and the rock and end up on the passive side. This ties in with the concept of Yin/Yang, which are opposing yet complementary forces that exist through out all things in the universe. There is much, much more to it, of which I don't fully understand yet, and probably can't explain properly. I like to keep things simple, anyway, and like nutshells better than dogmas and doctrines!

 

I think that's enough for now, as we are badly derailing this thread!