Why aren't there more healings?

[Panther]

It never ceased to amaze me how many groups of christians were inside the general cloak of christianity............Here is one of the most dangerous:

 

The ones that are part of the "name it and claim it" movement. THIS one in particular is one of the worst.......some of the famous evangalists such as Benny Hinn fit in this group....

"send me x and x dollars and I will then in turn put you on my prayer list"

 

When I was a christian, a woman I knew that had MULTIPLE problems went to one of his seminars.....a revival of sorts as some collaseum out west.

 

There were just thousands in attendance and of course, they had the healings. She said that hundreds of elders were responsible for praying over those that wanted healings in the audience.

Now, she claimed that when they got to her, they took one look at her and claimed she had been healed. They pulled her up on the stage. Now, this woman couldn't walk very well and needed help to just get out of the car.

She had fibramialga, arthritis, and a host of other problems.

 

Well, she went to the stage and literally ran across. I saw the footage myself. Some mutual friends visited her at her home soon after and confirmed that she, indeed, did seem a thousand times better and had absolutly no problem moving around, getting out of the car, climbing the stairs, etc. (things that were impossible prior without much concentration, patience and pain!)

 

Well, as much as I had always thought these "name it and claim it" evangalists were disgusting, phoney, and were taking advantage of people to get wealthy themselves, I did a double take when this happened. Here was someone that I actually knew that seemed to be better!

 

There's more to the story, however, but ya knew that, right?

 

Moving on, several months later, some rumors started to circumlate. I called her myself to see if they were true (I just HAD to know ), but she was never able to call me back regarding the matter, was always busy.

Found out later that all her problems came back, but she was too embarrassed to admit it publically for a while. (now, I can't say that I blame her on that.......)

Soon after, she was back to her old self.....in fact, worse than before. There was no more running for her. She went back to the hospital. She even considered suicide.

 

If there are any christians reading this, please pay attention.....note how "dangerous" this whole thing turned out to be for this lady.

 

Naturally, we all wondered if the whole thing was just a farce, but yet, we saw her ourselves on the footage and the ladies that vistied her afterwards were not lying about her being able to get around.

 

How did this happen?

 

I'll tell ya my theory.

Now, this lady was one of those that also claimed to be "slain in the spirit" that night.

I think she did this ALL in her own mind. She actually DID heal herself for a matter of a short time period....then went back to how she was prior.

I think some of these miracles that we do see, such as this, are simply our minds willing our bodies......

We often underestimate the power of the mind. There she was that night, worked up, had people telling her she was healed....I think the pure adrenaline rush that she had was what ran her across that stage.

 

Of course at that time, you know what was going on in the back of my mind when I found out that she wasn't really healed? *I thought so, I knew it.*

 

This movement has done so much damage to folks. People that don't get these miracles are told they haven't got enough faith. People are led to believe that money is a part of it....that they have not "gave" enough....so they continue to give, give, give until they have nothing....and then are STILL told well, you GAVE, but your faith was just still not strong enough.

 

There are so many broken in spirit out there and broke in the wallet too.

It's awful.

 

Lisa

 

Please ignore my typo's...in a hurry...

 

[zfunkman]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If there are any xtians who can heal, then why don't any of them just go the local Children's Hospital and heal the sick children. I mean most of these hospitals are xtian based hospitals and most of the children are from xtian families. Shouldn't it be easy for someone filled with the "holy spirit" to heal someone filled with the "holy spirit". If anyone needs healing the inocent children at CHOC should be at the top of the list. A friend of mine is a nurse at CHOC and she comes home crying because of the conditions of these inocent children. If I actaully could witness the healing of children at CHOC I may actaully believe. I read the bible and the way I read it any true xtian should have the power to heal.

[Panther]

And I have yet to see anybody perform a real miracle such as bring someone back from death as claimed in the bible!

[Loren]

I vehemently agree with all who wonder why such successful healers with the Power of God never simply go to a hospital and go up one side of the hall and down the other on every fucking floor until ALL the patients have walked out the front door healed. What a testimony for Jesus! The whole world would take note! They wouldn't be able to ignore it. And most importantly, what a loving thing for an omnipotent God to do.

 

With all due respect to our dear RA and others, I feel that all those burden of proof discussions are a side track to the burning issue of God's abject abandonment of all the sick of the world. So three or four lucky Holy Lottery winners in some Church Of The Ignorant really do get healed by God.

 

So fucking what! That itself is far worse than nothing. What about the hundreds of millions who didn't draw the winning ticket? What does this really say about this damned God?

[Reality Amplifier]

With all due respect to our dear RA and others, I feel that all those burden of proof discussions are a side track to the burning issue of God's abject abandonment of all the sick of the world. So three or four lucky Holy Lottery winners in some Church Of The Ignorant really do get healed by God.

 

So fucking what! That itself is far worse than nothing. What about the hundreds of millions who didn't draw the winning ticket? What does this really say about this damned God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're quite right Loren. These kinds of stats cannot be ignored, and should really tell us all something...

 

Is there really a capricious deity who randomly selects a lucky few for healing - healings that can only make a small, isolated group of people caper around, clapping in wonderment, astonishment and glee? If so, why is he capricious? Why does he ignore suffering and why are these supposed healings random (which is inconsistent with the alleged deity's alleged word)? Have these few people really been healed by God? Where is the confirming evidence, and how good is that evidence? Might there be natural explanations for the improvement of their condition that have not been explored, or that medical science currently lacks knowledge of? Why aren’t such health improvements at the behest of prayer seen and medically documented on a worldwide scale?

 

The possibility that there is no involvement from any deity whatsoever should be carefully considered.

[orthodox christian]

Oh, I have a harvest of replies here. Ok, here we go.

 

 

 

There is no proof. You know it, we know it. If it was REAL proof then you would show it in a heartbeat.

 

There is.

That is if you were me, but you're not. If you saw a miracle, you are gonna come here and tell everybody. I am not like that. I gonna hold the proof until you get excited about it. If you're not, you will not believe it. I know. I have experience of talking with atheists and agnostics. And actually the miracles in my church are too dear to me, and that is why I am afraid to lay it down here before you so you can step on them with the feet of your suspiciousness.

 

 

 

Jaded, what do you say about a brain damage? The person went to all kinds of doctors, but he still was "twisted": couldn't communicate, didn't smile at all, had short term memory losses, losses of orientation, couldn't understand conversation. He was like that for two years, and now he is a totally normal guy, he is a friend of mine. The accident happened to him 10 years ago, and at that time he had his wife, two grown children, and even grandchildren (now they are with him, and some more grandchildren). They all were witnesses.

 

 

 

Just because something unexplained happened doesn't mean god did it. All it means is something unexplained happened.

 

I aggree, Chef. But I personally feel that something really really unexplained hapened, like the Red Sea got separated, would you at least suspect that this is probably God?

 

 

 

Um, thanks! What's a nick?

 

Nickname, username See my comment to Jaded

 

 

 

Euthypro:

See, God is not a show-man, and he does not perform miracles to amuse, but to strengthen the faith. And so He is going to show His power only to those who will value it. That is not necessarily to the believers, it can be to an atheist (this happened many times) but in a particular time, place, and condition and mood of that atheist. It is really hard to match those to get the right time to perform a miracle so that an atheist would really appreciate it, that is why it does not happen so often.

 

 

 

 

 

To EVERYBODY: would the flames that did not burn Jewish children described in the Bible convince you? Is there a modern trick that would make fire not burn your skin and hair if you expose them to it for some time (like minutes)?

[Eccles1:2]

To EVERYBODY: would the flames that did not burn Jewish children described in the Bible convince you? Is there a modern trick that would make fire not burn your skin and hair if you expose them to it for some time (like minutes)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Orthodox, no it wouldn't convince me that the God(s) of the bible exist, or that the bible was infallible, or of anything other than that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy. But if I can once again drag the thread back to the original question...why aren't all christians who preach doing what Jesus said; healing people and raising the dead?

[Jaded]

Jaded, what do you say about a brain damage? The person went to all kinds of doctors, but he still was "twisted": couldn't communicate, didn't smile at all, had short term memory losses, losses of orientation, couldn't understand conversation. He was like that for two years, and now he is a totally normal guy, he is a friend of mine. The accident happened to him 10 years ago, and at that time he had his wife, two grown children, and even grandchildren (now they are with him, and some more grandchildren). They all were witnesses.

 

Brain damage is a tough one. Some people get better, some people get worse. Mostly it depends on the part of the brain damaged, type of damage, and severity of damage. While brain tissue doesn't grow back new neural pathways often develop and allow people to re-learn skills that they lost when the incident occurred. I don't know what type of damage or the severity of your friends injury, but my guess is he probably made a slow recovery and had plenty of therapy to help him along.

 

Is it any different from an accident victim or stroke victim that can't even get out of bed learning to walk with two people helping, moving to a walker, and eventually graduating to a cane (or nothing)? That happens pretty regularly. It has nothing to do with regaining strength, they really are relearning how to walk. The same things apply to speach recognition, emotional interaction, and pretty much all voluntary muscle control.

 

Perhaps your friends complete recovery is rare with the extent of damage, it's hard to know that without the particulars (and I'm not really qualified to tell you), but it is not unprecendented for people to recover from brian injuries.

[diggin]

I completely agree with you that the near-absence of certifiable healings proves that God is not working through Christians to heal the sick as the Bible says Jesus did.

 

The facts are clear: God has not even TRIED to heal the world or convince them he is in charge.

 

Focus with me on what Jesus said in John 5:20-29. What I get from that passage is the idea that

 

1. Jesus claims that his followers will at some unspecified time do greater miracles than Jesus did. Clearly, this has not happened yet, though as a Christian I believe I have spiritual life -- an "inner man" -- and that all authentic Christians do have spiritual life within them now. Healing of the body is not promised to Christians anywhere that I have found in the Bible.

 

2. Jesus claims that the scope of miraculous things he is talking about includes the resurrection of ALL people "in the graves".

 

3. A careful look at verse 29 and comparison to other verses reveals that "resurrection by judgments" does not mean what traditionalists have claimed -- that the unsaved dead are merely reawakened to find out that they've been bad and that they will burn forever somewhere. Judgment is a time of learning God's ways, and is spoken of as a happy, joyous time. See Isaiah 26:9, and Psalm 96:11-13

 

So let's discuss the idea that there will be, in the future, massive healings of ALL diseases in ALL people, and the resurrection of ALL the dead who have ever lived (not by the established faith-healing industry, I am confident). What is my evidence for that claim, and what reasons and evidence might you have to doubt that it is either (a) desirable, or ( possible?

 

Richard

[Celsus]

I completely agree with you that the near-absence of certifiable healings proves that God is not working through Christians to heal the sick as the Bible says Jesus did.

 

The facts are clear: God has not even TRIED to heal the world or convince them he is in charge.

 

Focus with me on what Jesus said in John 5:20-29. What I get from that passage is the idea that

 

1. Jesus claims that his followers will at some unspecified time do greater miracles than Jesus did. Clearly, this has not happened yet, though as a Christian I believe I have spiritual life -- an "inner man" -- and that all authentic Christians do have spiritual life within them now. Healing of the body is not promised to Christians anywhere that I have found in the Bible.

 

2. Jesus claims that the scope of miraculous things he is talking about includes the resurrection of ALL people "in the graves".

 

3. A careful look at verse 29 and comparison to other verses reveals that "resurrection by judgments" does not mean what traditionalists have claimed -- that the unsaved dead are merely reawakened to find out that they've been bad and that they will burn forever somewhere. Judgment is a time of learning God's ways, and is spoken of as a happy, joyous time. See Isaiah 26:9, and Psalm 96:11-13

 

So let's discuss the idea that there will be, in the future, massive healings of ALL diseases in ALL people, and the resurrection of ALL the dead who have ever lived (not by the established faith-healing industry, I am confident). What is my evidence for that claim, and what reasons and evidence might you have to doubt that it is either (a) desirable, or (b.) possible?

 

Richard

 

 

How about we focus on the proposition that Christianity is illogical and irrational? Please demonstrate why any rational person should consider Christianity to be anything other than a myth.

[atheist_thinker]

It is funny when ever there is a miracle witnessed it is usuely seen by only one person with a disfunction of some sort or by people in the same group with the same mentalitiy. Why are they never reported by a science jounals like nature, scientific american, etc. Why are they not taught in science books? Why are they not reported by cnn or nbc? Where are the detailed reports? What about the follow up reports?

 

Just because we have not advanced in a certain mediacal area and some thing unexplained happends, people are quick to say it was jesus or what ever. Why not take a slower approach to see what the actual case was?

 

My job requires me to fill out detailed reports of pc and network issues along with the fix. The reason is that problems of the same nature do repeat them selvs so it is nice to have some documentation to go by so I can do a faster and easier job trouble shooting and fixing them.

 

If I get a incident with a pc with a virus I fist have to take it off the net work. 2nd I have to identify the actual problem and plan out my strategy of resolving it. Gather my data and tools and start till I resolve it, somtimes I shoot from the hip but that is from experince. I resolve it and I put down what I was and what I did to resolve it. Also after that I do quick follow up on it to make sure nothinge else is going on that I might have missed.

 

If I sit down and pray till it is resolved then I would not get nothing done.

If I put down mircale I would not be working.

[Vixentrox]

You just don't have enough faith in god to fix your pc problems....

[atheist_thinker]

You just don't have enough faith in god to fix your pc problems....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Excactly, I'll be wating all day with my finger up my nose.

[RedPillAddict]

Oh, I have a harvest of replies here. Ok, here we go.

There is no proof. You know it, we know it. If it was REAL proof then you would show it in a heartbeat.

 

There is.

That is if you were me, but you're not. If you saw a miracle, you are gonna come here and tell everybody. I am not like that. I gonna hold the proof until you get excited about it. If you're not, you will not believe it. I know. I have experience of talking with atheists and agnostics. And actually the miracles in my church are too dear to me, and that is why I am afraid to lay it down here before you so you can step on them with the feet of your suspiciousness.

 

The sad thing is, you probably really believe that.... If I got "excited" about it, then i would probably fall for any old magic trick like you do. There is no "proof", only your personal feelings. It is only real because you make it real in your head and nobody will change your mind because you need that feeling so bad.

What you dont understand is that this is "ExChristian.net", not "NeverAChristian.net".

 

Been there, done that, woke up, happier now. why does that bother you?

[Philosopher Dave]

Preaching the gospel is supposed to be accompanied by healings:

Why don't Christians do this more? Why aren't there hundreds of verifiable, documented instances of healings and raisings from the dead? When did a Christian last even try to raise someone from the dead?

 

Please enlighten me, preachers of the true gospel... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the condition in these passages is that is that it focuses on THEM as the agents of gospel/healing. I'm not sure that I see how we are to hermenuetically 'personalize' such passages. As a kind of open cessationist, I do not appropriate these passages as a license to heal.

[DanInPA]

Mark 16:17-18 NIV

 

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

[Philosopher Dave]

Mark 16:17-18 NIV

 

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Nice quote, but everyone knows that that particular passage is an addendum to the last part of Mark...it came [somehow] into the text at a later point. It is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

[Eccles1:2]

Nice quote, but everyone knows that that particular passage is an addendum to the last part of Mark...it came [somehow] into the text at a later point.  It is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not asking the question of those who have a healthy attitude to the bible; I was really after the views of a bible-believing "it's the infallible Word of God" christian. So far, none have had the confidence to come on here and defend their position.

[DanInPA]

Dave,

Are you saying that our current bibles are NOT the original, inspired word of god?

What, then, do you base your beliefs on?

 

If that passage isn't the "word of god" how do you know any other passages are?

 

Since we do not have any original NT manuscripts, how can we be sure anything in our current bible is reliable?

 

Thanks,

Dan

[Jaded]

Nice quote, but everyone knows that that particular passage is an addendum to the last part of Mark...it came [somehow] into the text at a later point.  It is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not everyone knows that. Do you have references to back that up? I had never heard that before.

[DanInPA]

This is from BibleGateway.com

 

"The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20"

But it is there in the King James Version, which I assume is the oldest English version commonly used.

 

I don't understand how a christian can argue the lack of original texts on points they can't explain, yet claim the (current) bible is the "Word of God".

[Cerise]

Aw, most Christians just wing it when it comes to the bible anyway. It's getting them to admit to it that's the difficult part. Or admit that they have any better reason for following one scripture as opposed to another, other then "I just do".

[Francois Tremblay]

No no... you see, it's the infallible Word of God, except for those parts that are not. And the difference is obvious : the infallible Word of God says good things, and the rest doesn't. And I know what good things are because the infallible Word of God says so.

 

It all makes perfect sense. Praise the Lord.

[greygirl]

When I was a teenager, I had really horrible teeth. Very crooked, *6* wisdom teeth, massive overbite. It was terrible. My mom picked my orthodontist because he was a guy from church. When I went for my first appointment, he told me I was going to need surgery to bring my jaw forward, and I'd be wearing headgear for several months, at least. I was terrified of all of this. I was already a pariah at school, the last thing I needed was to be geek in the headgear.

 

So, I got my braces. The surgery wasn't going to happen for quite a while, because we had to make sure moving my teeth wasn't going to change my overbite. Because my orthodontist was so very faithful, and we went to the same church, he took to praying over me after every appointment. After several months in the braces, my jaw moved forward all by itself. the doctor had never seen anything like it, and started referring to me as his "miracle patient". When my jaw moved, I also stopped having the migraine headaches that I'd had regularly for many years. He actually talked in church about how my incredible faith had healed me.

 

Thing is, I was already an atheist by then. I had absolutely no faith. The whole time he was praying over me, I was sitting there thinking of how pissed off I was that I had to pretend I didn't think he was a complete quack. It was just one of those things that happens sometimes. Not a miracle, just one of those random things that turn out good.

 

Also, the placebo effect is a very powerful thing. People who are in chronic pain, or have other health problems can quite often be so desperate for relief that when they're "healed", they're able to temporarily convince themselves that they're better, and block the pain. Eventually, their brain can't maintain the illusion and the symptoms come back.

[Kryten]

Nice quote, but everyone knows that that particular passage is an addendum to the last part of Mark...it came [somehow] into the text at a later point.  It is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[somehow] my ass. It is VERY well known among biblical scholars that it was the church that added all that crap to the end of Mark, after 16:8. Apologists usually only admit that fact when it suits their argument (applying the Apologetic Method). The most dangerous "problems" never get taught to Christians, so most of them don't know about the additions to Mark, and would likely get offended at the suggestion.