Debunk My Spiritual Bullshit!

[Dave]

If I may steer off to make a correction. The Dharma, as taught by the Buddha, is Atheistic. So Buddhism is Atheistic. If other schools want to add a belief in supernatural powers/gods etc then they are not practicing what the Buddha taught - so can't be called "Buddhist."

Sounds like a "No true christian" argument.

 

On the subject of "ghosts." If the human body does not contain a "soul" how would one explain these apparitions?

Easy. People believe in them so they see them because that's what they expect to see. Those that know they don't exist don't imagine them.

 

If you really want to insist that ghosts/whatevers exist, then you need to explain how they break the laws of physics, how they consume and metabolize energy and what is the byproduct of that energy consumption, how they have no physical bodies yet can manipulate physical objects and make sounds, how they exist, what they are, and a zillion other questions.

 

Until a ghost is presented for examination and experimentation, I'll stick with the logical position that they don't exist.

[Dave]

People experience what is termed "supernatural" all the time.

Correction; They experience what they BELIEVE to be "supernatural." As we can see with christians, and other religions (including Buddhism), what people believe isn't always true.

[Jun]

Sounds like a "No true christian" argument.

 

Whatever

 

Easy. People believe in them so they see them because that's what they expect to see. Those that know they don't exist don't imagine them.

 

If you really want to insist that ghosts/whatevers exist, then you need to explain how they break the laws of physics, how they consume and metabolize energy and what is the byproduct of that energy consumption, how they have no physical bodies yet can manipulate physical objects and make sounds, how they exist, what they are, and a zillion other questions.

 

Until a ghost is presented for examination and experimentation, I'll stick with the logical position that they don't exist.

 

Agreed.

 

As we can see with christians, and other religions (including Buddhism), what people believe isn't always true.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything. There are no "beliefs" to "believe" in the practice of Buddhism.

 

From my post made on May 6th - http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...15961&st=80

 

I will relay something I witnessed in Japan back in 1995 at the Budõkan in Tõkyõ. It may be related to what you have said. Everyone can ponder it or maybe someone can offer an explanation?

 

It was a martial exhibition showcasing both ancient Samurai martial traditions and modern budõ forms. An old teacher (87yrs) of Aikidõ took the centre stage and explained that he would show the power of ki manifested in physical form. Now, I was very sceptical at the time as were quite a few in the audience, of this ki that the Japanese insisted was real.

 

The teacher stood about 5 metres from an archery target on a free-wheeling base (four wheels - like a trolly). The teacher stood there for quite a long time, while the announcer explained the nature of ki and Aikidõ and such. Honestly, nearly everyone - apart from those who practice the martial arts - thought it was going to be a put on, so many people were just chatting and discussing the previous demo. The old teacher gave a shout (kiai) that was extremely loud for such a frail looking old man and the TARGET MOVED! It moved/rolled back away from him about a half a metre. Everyone was surprised and started to applaud, but we were quickly told to be absolutely quite - as that wasn't what was supposed to happen. Huh? We all thought. An old guy had just shouted at an inanimate object and caused it to roll backwards without physically touching it!

 

The old teacher again prepared himself, and this time we were all told to be absolutely quiet. I remember, the audience was so quiet you could hear the hum of the audio system. This time the old teacher gave another extraordinarily loud shout, and THE TARGET ITSELF SPLIT ALMOST IN HALF! The trolley didn't move at all! There wasn't any applause this time, just gapping gaws and looks of astonishment. The old man actually appologized for not getting it right the first time! Then he just walked off with a slight bow.

 

We were allowed to investigate the target and the floor around it. It was just an ordinary Japanese archery target made from plywood sitting on a frame with four legs each with a small free-moving wheel. We tried looking for explosives, wires, remote squibs, but there wasn't anything that we could find.

 

There were hundreds of people trying to become his students after that exhibition, but he had retired from teaching. I have heard stories of martial teachers knocking birds out of trees with a shout, and I have seen teachers knock over people with a shout - but to actually split an object without touching it? I have retold this story many hundreds of times since. The Japanese, for the most part are not surprised at the story, but at my inability to believe that it was real! The non-Japanese to whom I have retold this story either tell me it was trick, that it was staged or they just outright deny it is possible.

 

Ki manifested through the action of a martial shout?

 

Now, since we are talking about proving "supernatural" stuff, anyone care to explain that?

[Guest JP]

Hi Jeff...

 

Have you considered posting your story on the Randi forums? I would be curious to see what they think about this over there...www.randi.org.

 

On a personal note, I, too, experienced knockings on my wall a few times. There was a period of time back in 2001 where it seemed to happen every night for a few months; it would always knock on the wall where my bed was and would get so loud that sometimes I had to cover my ears. It didn't really scare me per se, but it was very annoying. My dad heard it once as well; he and my stepmom also reported eerie things happening to them in the house. A couple months ago, I was laying in my bed and heard the same sound that I had heard all those years ago in my old house. It started on my roof, and moved down through the wall to where my head was, and then it moved away and got increasingly smaller until I couldn't hear it anymore.

 

I've had a couple of other weird things happen to me too, such as having the comforter pulled down on my left side while I was at my cousin's house about a month ago. It seemed as if something grabbed onto it to pull it down, then struggled to get free as the comforter kind of went up in the air, and then pulled it back down again really fast and hard. My first instinct was that one of her cats did it; however, there was only one cat in the room and he was sleeping on the bed; the other two cats were in the living room.

 

Jeff, you and I seem to have experienced many of the same things. I hope that you're doing okay.

 

JP

[Vigile]

Easy. People believe in them so they see them because that's what they expect to see. Those that know they don't exist don't imagine them.

 

Not only that, but they create patterns where none exist. The human mind is fed massive amounts of data at any given time. It must constantly seek out patterns in order to make sense of the world around it, otherwise it would be overwhelmed with white noise. For example, as I type this my mind is being fed data from the fan above my head (both through the wind on my skin and the hum in my ears), I feel the temperature, I hear noises from the TV, an occassional thump from outside, my feet feel the floor, my butt feels the chair, ect..., etc... If I had to constantly process all the feedback my senses receive at any given moment, it would all be meaningless as there is just too much to process; ala white noise.

 

The brain compensates for this by looking for patterns of meaning and focus. Usually this works to our advantage, but it is a disadvantage when trying to interpret random data.

 

For example, a cloud is just a random pattern, yet we can pretty much find any image we wish inside that random pattern. All you have to do is tell yourself look for a cat, look up to the clouds and no doubt you will find a perfect image of a cat. This is what we do with ghosts and other similar apperations. People believe in them and thus when a series of random events occurs, the brain interprets a pattern in those events where none previously existed.

 

This, and selective memory, hallucinations, and dreams.

[dr_funkenstein]

I've had a couple of experiences which at the time rattled me greatly. Being a skeptically minded person, I sought further information on my experience and discovered that what I heard and saw could be explained in a completely rational way that had more to do with the way the human brain works than with anything supernatural. Here's my experience:

 

Lying in bed at night, face down, just dozing off to sleep. I was in that state where I was still conscious but my mind was beginning to wander.

 

All of a sudden, I felt a great pressure on my back as though someone was sitting on me, holding me down and preventing me from getting up. At the same time, my bedroom was filled with a great white light streaming in through my window, and my ears were filled with a really loud static noise. My heart was pumping, I was full of adrenaline, and then I saw a small figure, maybe 3 feet tall, running up and down the side of my bed very quickly, occasionally stopping and leaning down very close to my face - it seemed to me that he was trying to see if I was still awake or not. He was silhouetted by the light coming in through the window, so I couldn't make out any details other than his humanoid shape. I blacked out and woke up some time later in my bed.

 

Alien abduction?

 

Not at all. Merely my brain shifting into REM sleep while I was still conscious.

 

What you may not know is that on rare occasions, your brain can go into a REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep state while you're still conscious. REM state is associated with paralysis - hence my feeling that someone was sitting on me preventing me from moving. And of course, REM state is when we dream...

 

It's a phenomenon known as sleep paralysis and I believe it explains a large portion of so-called "supernatural" occurrences - things like ghosts, alien encounters, and all manner of visions. The wikipedia article gives you some great further information. I'll add that once I knew about this, the phenomenon occurred once again to me but armed with my knowledge of what it was I was able to "shake" myself out of the sleep state and just like that *snap* the world returned to normal.

 

Other than that, I think that there are everyday explanations for things like bumps and sounds in the night - but I think that for psychological reasons we interpret these things to fit into a pre-existing idea of some kind of supernatural phenomenon. I also think that it's a slippery slope; it might take only one or two events that seem hard to explain before you start interpreting other - more readily explainable things - to fit your preconceived notion that there is supernatural activity occurring in your house.

 

And of course the caveat - there may well be phenomena that are real and we cannot explain through our current knowledge. I think the concept of a collective consciousness is an interesting one, and one that might somehow explain otherwise unexplainable phenomena - but I won't go into that just now

 

EDIT: For further reading on sleep paralysis check this article on sciencenews.org.

[Lycorth]

I don't see where Atheism presupposes the nonexistence of anything supernatural.

Exactly. Because it really doesn't. Atheism is just non belief in a supernatural creator or deity. That's why even some forms of Buddhism are forms of atheism. At least in my opinion. Now some might read more into the word than others, but fundamentally the word doesn't really say much more than just "no god".

 

I agree. Many Atheists, I think, make way too much of their Atheism, and read into it things it doesn't cover. All it means is the belief that no gods exist. It is silent on other supernatural or paranormal matters, and by definition cannot include a position on these things. It is not A-supernaturalism or A-whatever, just A-theism. They spend way too much time making a big deal out of any sort of supernatural or paranormal ideas, and think that just because they do not believe in the existence of any gods, they must devoid themselves of anything remotely spiritual or such.

[Jun]

I don't see where Atheism presupposes the nonexistence of anything supernatural.

Exactly. Because it really doesn't. Atheism is just non belief in a supernatural creator or deity. That's why even some forms of Buddhism are forms of atheism. At least in my opinion. Now some might read more into the word than others, but fundamentally the word doesn't really say much more than just "no god".

 

I agree. Many Atheists, I think, make way too much of their Atheism, and read into it things it doesn't cover. All it means is the belief that no gods exist. It is silent on other supernatural or paranormal matters, and by definition cannot include a position on these things. It is not A-supernaturalism or A-whatever, just A-theism. They spend way too much time making a big deal out of any sort of supernatural or paranormal ideas, and think that just because they do not believe in the existence of any gods, they must devoid themselves of anything remotely spiritual or such.

 

Hear, hear.

 

Watch this right to the end - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf8k9__waS4

 

The comments on YouTube are typical of what I get from Non-Asians when I retell some of what I've witnessed in Japan. Close minded?

[Asimov]

Hear, hear.

 

Watch this right to the end - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf8k9__waS4

 

The comments on YouTube are typical of what I get from Non-Asians when I retell some of what I've witnessed in Japan. Close minded?

 

 

No, skeptical. It's difficult to believe something when someone is retelling a story. It lacks context. It's even harder to believe something we watch on television...especially on the internet.

[Casey]

Given some of the otherwordly incidents that are said to have occurred at the Tower of London over the years, I'd love to read the Duty Officer's Log or whatever they call the document where such things are recorded.

Casey

[Ouroboros]

If supernatural can't be experienced and measured, unless someone believes in it, then something is really fishy about it.

 

Why can't "supernatural" be experienced?

 

People experience what is termed "supernatural" all the time. Thus the term - "supernatural" from the Latin meaning "above nature." What's the saying about investigating the supernatural - Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so - or something like that.

To tell you the truth, I have not experienced anything supernatural. Nothing, zilch, nada, nope, nuh-uh, null. nil, void... and I was Christian 30 years and in a high-intense-super-duper-cult-version that believed that miracles and supernatural things happens all the time for 10 years+, and I prayed many times for miracles... and I'm still waiting...

 

I also grew up on the country side and spent many walks alone in the forest. Even at night. It was scary, spooky, and I thought I saw things, but I know there wasn't any real ghosts, and could see the branches and leaves move and stuff. And it was in parts of Sweden were they claim trolls and gnomes live... maybe I saw some of them? Darn that I missed the unicorn though.

 

To this I've been in ghost houses, ghost ships and also 4-500 old castles and churches. Even in the ones that have "ghosts"... and nothing. I was scared, but I didn't see or hear anything... so my fright has dissipated over the years. I grew out of it.

 

I experienced several things that were claimed to be supernatural by others, but they're things that I truly do understand well how they work in a psychological context and are not supernatural, but very natural effects of our brains and understanding, or rather misunderstanding, of the natural order.

 

So my experience is that supernatural things do not exist. And really, if supernatural is "above" natural, and it is there all the time and effect natural, then we can throw out most of science, because the laws of thermodynamics do not allow supernatural influence of matter and energy.

 

There is no exact definition of what “natural” is by the way.

If the supernatural exists and influence the natural, then supernatural is not supernatural but natural. Supernatural can not by its definition co-operate and interact with natural without blurring the line. Where does the line between supernatural and natural exist? You can't point to a certain physical effect and say it is supernatural instead of natural. Is Vacuum Fluctuations supernatural?

[Ouroboros]

As we can see with christians, and other religions (including Buddhism), what people believe isn't always true.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything. There are no "beliefs" to "believe" in the practice of Buddhism.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they believed in reincarnation?

[Jubilant]

No, it's more than that. These are real events that happened to me.

 

In your opinion, why do you think that the majority of people do not have those same events happen to them?

 

No, it's not just my opinion that these things actually happened to me.

 

BroJeff, please re-read my question! I wasn't implying that it was your *opinion* those things happened to you, I believe that you really experienced what you say that you have. Coupled with my initial first response though, I was wondering your opinion as to why you think that the majority of people do not have experiences such as yourself. Thats all and you answered that below.

 

These events are a part of my life history and I can't reasonably deny the reality of them anymore than I can reasonably deny the reality of the ordinary, non-supernatural things that have happened to me. I don't know why these things don't happen to many other people (I suspect that they actually do to more people than you think), but that doesn't detract from the fact that they have happened to me.

 

There is so much about the human mind that we do not yet understand fully. IMHO, just like UFOs, people use the word *supernatural* to describe what they do not understand. Perhaps someday science will be able to explain the *supernatural* and much like UFOs, we'll find out that it was only something unexplainable at the time.

 

I don't doubt you in the least bit.

[Jubilant]

Jeff, I'm not trying to *debunk* what happened to you...only engaging in a conversation.

[Ouroboros]

The comments on YouTube are typical of what I get from Non-Asians when I retell some of what I've witnessed in Japan. Close minded?

Would you be close minded to stories about elves, gnomes, trolls, santa clause etc from Swedish people?

 

Here's the funny thing you have to understand, I've heard plenty of ghost stories and fairy tales from Sweden, but I've heard just as plenty from asian friends, and I've noticed something very peculiar... ghosts and the supernatural looks and acts different in different cultures.

 

So basically the laws of the supernatural is driven and controlled by... the culture and the people experiencing them. This makes me conclude that the supernatural is not guiding or influencing us, but rather the opposite. We (the observers) are in control of which kind of supernatural "law" or event that will take place. So after all it isn't so "super", but rather "sub". The right term then would be "subnatural" and not "supernatural".

[Grandpa Harley]

"Here's the funny thing you have to understand, I've heard plenty of ghost stories and fairy tales from Sweden, but I've heard just as plenty from asian friends, and I've noticed something very peculiar... ghosts and the supernatural looks and acts different in different cultures."

 

but the themes are the same. Virtually every culture I've encountered has legends of very small, very malign, people... call them fairies, leprechauns, dwarves, or kavakava... all best avoided and left alone...

[Thackerie]

It's been years since I've seen a ghost.

 

As a child, one evening I saw two shrouded figures materialize and seconds later disappear in my bedroom.

 

As a teenager, one bright sunny afternoon I was looking out the kitchen window when I saw a small, dark man dressed in clothing from the mid-19th century out in the back yard, spinning about two feet above the ground. I watched for several seconds as he spun faster and faster and turned into a blur resembling a mini-tornado before he vanished altogether.

 

As a young woman, I was walking through a small park-like area near an old courthouse where lots of people were sitting on benches and eating lunch. A man dressed as a Union Army officer, whom I at first thought was a Civil War re-enactor, looked directly at me, then winked, lifted his hat, and disappeared before my eyes. No one else seemed to notice.

 

Just a bit later, I lived in a house where I encountered the same ghost - a young man who appeared in contemporary clothing - on four occasions. Usually, he'd just be sitting on my couch, but one time he actually turned and looked toward me (scared the bejezus out of me). In this same house, my roommate and I each had a couple of experiences of seeing an apparition of the other (me of her, her of me) (a doppleganger?) who disappeared from sight after a few seconds.

 

It's been years since I've seen anything like this, however. Maybe I've grown too old for mental energy to manifest itself as a hallucination (or a waking dream), which is what I now believe happened. (I've read that preteens and teenagers are often the apparent target in poltergeist hauntings.)

 

In any case, although I've seen my share of ghosts, I don't believe in them as spirits of the dead or anything other than something that popped out of my own mind.

 

BTW, since my parents died, I've never seen any sign of either of them. Those are a couple of ghosts I'd really like to see.

[Jun]

As we can see with christians, and other religions (including Buddhism), what people believe isn't always true.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything. There are no "beliefs" to "believe" in the practice of Buddhism.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they believed in reincarnation?

 

I will correct you, you are wrong. If by "they" you mean Buddhists, which naturally includes me, no. There is no belief in reincarnation in Buddhism. There is no "belief" at all.

[Grandpa Harley]

Jun.... :17: We are not worthy...

 

(I was waiting for that... It was an error I made... )

[Jun]

Jun.... We are not worthy...

 

(I was waiting for that... It was an error I made... )

 

Gramps, what are you on about?

[Grandpa Harley]

As we can see with christians, and other religions (including Buddhism), what people believe isn't always true.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything. There are no "beliefs" to "believe" in the practice of Buddhism.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they believed in reincarnation?

 

I will correct you, you are wrong. If by "they" you mean Buddhists, which naturally includes me, no. There is no belief in reincarnation in Buddhism. There is no "belief" at all.

 

I was waiting for that reply... I almost fielded it since it was a mistake I made since I was a

[Jun]

As we can see with christians, and other religions (including Buddhism), what people believe isn't always true.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything. There are no "beliefs" to "believe" in the practice of Buddhism.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they believed in reincarnation?

 

I will correct you, you are wrong. If by "they" you mean Buddhists, which naturally includes me, no. There is no belief in reincarnation in Buddhism. There is no "belief" at all.

 

I was waiting for that reply... I almost fielded it since it was a mistake I made since I was a

 

Oh?!

[Grandpa Harley]

mindfulness... feh!

[NotBlinded]

If I may steer off to make a correction. The Dharma, as taught by the Buddha, is Atheistic. So Buddhism is Atheistic. If other schools want to add a belief in supernatural powers/gods etc then they are not practicing what the Buddha taught - so can't be called "Buddhist."

 

Atheistic with regards to a "supernatural" god though right? What if "god" is perfectly natural?

 

In Japan ghosts sightings are seen as being quite normal occurances. The Japanese do not believe in a "soul," however, preferring to believe that the persons energy - ki - has become manifest in physical form after death.

It's all natural, IMO, even if there are "ghosts". We just don't understand so we keep attributing this lack of understanding to the supernatural.

 

Jeff, you have even said that it fits in with a naturalistic worldview. I don't see why it wouldn't if they existed. I'm one that loves a good ghost hunt!

[NotBlinded]

If you really want to insist that ghosts/whatevers exist, then you need to explain how they break the laws of physics, how they consume and metabolize energy and what is the byproduct of that energy consumption, how they have no physical bodies yet can manipulate physical objects and make sounds, how they exist, what they are, and a zillion other questions.

Science is tentative...good thing!