Debunk My Spiritual Bullshit!

[Grandpa Harley]

"Laws"? Last I say there were theories that more or less fitted the observable... but 'Laws'? Not even Newton managed 'Laws'; you want to measure projectile behaviour on earth Newton cuts it... you want to hit Jupiter than you have to start modifying with Einstein's Reletavistic work, the further you go the more the inaccurate Newton is and the more Einstein applies, but even Relativity breaks down under some conditions, even where Newton fails. 'Laws' in physics are for Star Trek for Mr. Scott to say 'ye cannae change' just before he comes up with a work round involving hairy string, Klingon spit and fitting Mr. Spock with a catheter...

[NotBlinded]

"Laws"? Last I say there were theories that more or less fitted the observable... but 'Laws'? Not even Newton managed 'Laws'; you want to measure projectile behaviour on earth Newton cuts it... you want to hit Jupiter than you have to start modifying with Einstein's Reletavistic work, the further you go the more the inaccurate Newton is and the more Einstein applies, but even Relativity breaks down under some conditions, even where Newton fails. 'Laws' in physics are for Star Trek for Mr. Scott to say 'ye cannae change' just before he comes up with a work round involving hairy string, Klingon spit and fitting Mr. Spock with a catheter...

Sometimes those laws are taken as god-given and unchanging.

[Grandpa Harley]

The laws of physics according to the Greeks was that photons were emitted from the eye. Leonardo implied otherwise, Newton proved otherwise.

 

 

Huygens' laws said things were waves. Einstein thought otherwise (Photoelectric effect). De Broglie proved it was a wave. Seems things vary according how we look... Now, that ,to me, is a model, not a law. The pointing finger, most certainly not the moon.

[NotBlinded]

The laws of physics according to the Greeks was that photons were emitted from the eye. Leonardo implied otherwise, Newton proved otherwise.

 

 

Huygens' laws said things were waves. Einstein thought otherwise (Photoelectric effect). De Broglie proved it was a wave. Seems things vary according how we look... Now, ,to me, is a model, not a law. The pointing finger, most certainly not the moon.

A lot of people suck that finger for comfort instead of looking beyond it. Mostly the religious.

[Jun]

notblindedbytheblight said -

Atheistic with regards to a "supernatural" god though right? What if "god" is perfectly natural?

 

Mmmmm. God, natural? As in an unseen guiding/universal energy? I know you don't mean as in the bearded sky-daddy of the Abrahamic religions.

 

We just don't understand so we keep attributing this lack of understanding to the supernatural.

 

Bingo! In my travels through Asia I've seen lots of things that are taken as being ordinary and natural occurances that Non-Asians attribute to being supernatural.

[Legion]

Huygens' laws said things were waves. Einstein thought otherwise (Photoelectric effect). De Broglie proved it was a wave. Seems things vary according how we look... Now, ,to me, is a model, not a law. The pointing finger, most certainly not the moon.

I think this is beautiful Gramps, just beautiful.

[Grandpa Harley]

I've never seen why a God has to be intelligent, but then, I read Lovecraft at an early age...

[Grandpa Harley]

Huygens' laws said things were waves. Einstein thought otherwise (Photoelectric effect). De Broglie proved it was a wave. Seems things vary according how we look... Now, ,to me, is a model, not a law. The pointing finger, most certainly not the moon.

I think this is beautiful Gramps, just beautiful.

 

I wish I could claim it as original, but, as the our Resident Orientalist, the Rev. Jun, will tell you, I stole it... Depending on your cultural compass, either from the Buddha, or Bruce Lee...

[Legion]

I wish I could claim it as original, but, as the our Resident Orientalist, the Rev. Jun, will tell you, I stole it... Depending on your cultural compass, either from the Buddha, or Bruce Lee...

I'm sure you've heard the saying... Good artists borrow, great artists steal.

[Grandpa Harley]

I wish I could claim it as original, but, as the our Resident Orientalist, the Rev. Jun, will tell you, I stole it... Depending on your cultural compass, either from the Buddha, or Bruce Lee...

I'm sure you've heard the saying... Good artists borrow, great artists steal.

 

Story of my life... As Martha Graham said, if you're going to steal, steal from the best... and like many Americans, she was stealing from Twain...

[Lycorth]

I think it all boils down to this:

 

Jeff, you're either Agnostic or Atheist, yet have some beliefs regarding "supernatural" things you've observed. Dude, if those beliefs don't cause you to hurt yourself or anyone else, then don't sweat it. It's just that simple.

 

Many people, Theists and Atheists and the undecided alike, make way too big a deal about trying to figure out the entire universe. So long as you avoid beliefs and practices that are harmful to yourself or others, I think you've done well. Most of us oppose Xianity because we see it as harmful, both to the believer and potentially to others. If it weren't harmful, many of us probably would not have left it.

 

Jeff, I wouldn't worry about any of your ideas regarding ghosts, the supernatural, and so on, unless it becomes harmful to yourself or others. Enjoy the one life you have

[Dave]

Sounds like a "No true christian" argument.

Whatever

It's true, it was the exact same argument they'd give.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything.

They believe all that stuff you just posted.

[Dave]

This, and selective memory, hallucinations, and dreams.

Of course it is. Recent studies have found that a relatively large group of people are prone to these kind of beliefs. It's almost like that can't help but believe. Maybe they can't?

[Dave]

I agree. Many Atheists, I think, make way too much of their Atheism, and read into it things it doesn't cover. All it means is the belief that no gods exist.

No, Atheism doesn't even mean that. All Atheism is is a lack of belief in gods. It is NOT a belief/claim that no gods exist.

 

It is silent on other supernatural or paranormal matters, and by definition cannot include a position on these things. It is not A-supernaturalism or A-whatever, just A-theism. They spend way too much time making a big deal out of any sort of supernatural or paranormal ideas, and think that just because they do not believe in the existence of any gods, they must devoid themselves of anything remotely spiritual or such.

Those that don't fall for ghost stories are called; Skeptics. Now skepticism is not an automatic dismissal of anything or everything. It is a way of thinking, a way of asking pertinent questions. It also entails a completely open mind.... so open all the garbage falls out. It's the opposite of some that claim they have an open mind but it's closed so tightly around a pet belief that they simply cannot admit they could be wrong.

 

This "spiritual" bit is a bunch of crap. People yammer on ad nauseum about their spirituality as if it actually means something. All they're doing is yammering on so that someone else will be impressed with their yammering. In other words, it's a facade.

 

 

Edited to frustrate the spelling pollice.

[Ouroboros]

"Here's the funny thing you have to understand, I've heard plenty of ghost stories and fairy tales from Sweden, but I've heard just as plenty from asian friends, and I've noticed something very peculiar... ghosts and the supernatural looks and acts different in different cultures."

 

but the themes are the same. Virtually every culture I've encountered has legends of very small, very malign, people... call them fairies, leprechauns, dwarves, or kavakava... all best avoided and left alone...

But they look different, live under other conditions, have different properties, have different methods of being pleased. Like the gnomes (the prototype to Santa Claus) were pleased when you presented cookies and milk to them on the doorstep during winter.

 

The gnomes don't handle gold or have a pot at the end of the rainbow, while leprechauns do.

 

The ghosts looks and acts different in the asian countries compared to how they act and look in the western world. I'm basing that observation from people that have explained how "ghosts" look like and do in asia, and it doesn't match how they look like and act in the west.

 

Etc... they don't match up if you start looking at details, but of course if you look at very high level generalization everything can be made similar. But just because you use the word "ghost" then it doesn't mean they are the same "creatures" described.

 

I never heard any stories like the leprechauns in Sweden, but I am to assume that they are the same as the gnomes because they're small and vicious? Gnomes live under the foundation of the house, have gray clothes and kill your farm animals. Leprechauns live in the wild or forest and have green clothes and kill you (I assume) if you meet them. Different behavior and characteristics, only similarity... size and evil.

 

If they existed as supernatural beings, wouldn't there be some kind of migration? Wouldn't there be some kind of mixing of supernatural culture? Wouldn't there be more stories of gnomes in all the countries and more stories of the leprechauns in Sweden? Or should we assume that this kind of migration didn't start to happen until the 20th century?

[Ouroboros]

I will correct you, you are wrong. If by "they" you mean Buddhists, which naturally includes me, no. There is no belief in reincarnation in Buddhism. There is no "belief" at all.

Oh. Okay. I was certain that reincarnation was one of the core tenets of Buddhism... my bad.

[Ouroboros]

This, and selective memory, hallucinations, and dreams.

Of course it is. Recent studies have found that a relatively large group of people are prone to these kind of beliefs. It's almost like that can't help but believe. Maybe they can't?

Yup. I agree. And it seems that only a certain group of people have "supernatural" experiences. I'm honest here, I really tried to have "supernatural" experiences. I wanted it, I looked for it, I prayed for it and even went to hundreds of events to experience it, but ever time I could see that there either was a trick or I didn't "experience" all these things. What I experience was only internal emotions and things that I now can attribute to mass hypnosis or peer pressure. I was Christian for so long, and I wanted to have experience that completely and finally prove that I was on the right track. But it never happened. Why is that? Why didn't I see angels, demons, ghosts etc??? I really wanted to.

 

And don't get me wrong, I would love to see if the supernatural really did exist, but my doubt is stronger than 20,000 believers. And that would say something about how weak most people belief really is...

[Vigile]

I'm honest here, I really tried to have "supernatural" experiences. I wanted it, I looked for it, I prayed for it

 

Yup, I can relate. My grandparent's church was charismatic, and I got into Charles Finney for a brief and painful moment. I did everything I could to experience the baptism of the holy spirit, but I felt nothing. I wouldn't speak in tongues unless it came naturally over me. So I just sat there while church leaders prayed over me until they gave up in frustration. One pastor even told me to fast and sit on top of a mountain praying for it until it happened; even if it took 3 or 4 days. Fortunately I didn't follow his advice. But yeah, nothing, nada, niente.

 

My mom, who is not a charismatic, admitted that as a teenager she felt pressured into speaking in tongues and faked it in order to go along with the crowd. I have no doubt that most do this. My best friend growing up, on the other hand, described an experience that literally threw him to the floor where he couldn't speak or move for an hour. He's probably the most painfully honest person I've ever met (to a fault actually as he has no tact - but I like that about him), so I take him at his word. Some are just emotionally predisposed toward these types of experiences and some, like us, are not.

[Ouroboros]

You know Vigile, I spoke (and still can speak) in tongues, but I knew that it was mostly caused by my own will, but thought that maybe somehow I and the Holy Ghost together did something. I know now that it was really only a mental exercise. Somehow I never saw that as supernatural though. And that was the only thing I ever got or experienced. I wanted to see a miracle, see an Angel or such, but nothing.

[XtianChris]

I believe supernatural experiences do happen, but that does not mean the same as spiritual to me. As others have said in this thread, the mind is powerful. I believe it's powerful enough to create unexplainable events that we term 'supernatural'. In my own experience I can list two events:

 

1) I prayed to God to prove that the Book of Mormon was from him by having an angel move some figurines in my living room. Seconds later I saw those figurines move.

2) I played the Ouiji Board once when I was a kid with my friend John. John's dead uncle showed up and told us he was going to kill John in his sleep (through the Ouiji Board).

 

The first experience I have come to realize did not physically happen. My mind made it all up, and for good reason. If I didn't believe in the Book of Mormon, then I would hate my dad for teaching it to me. I loved and respected my dad too much to want to think anything bad about him, so I made myself see something that didn't really happen.

 

The second experience...no idea, honestly. Could John have been controlling the board? I don't think he would have knowingly done so. If he did do it intentionally, he was a genius because he knew how to move it without applying force. That same day I played with a couple other people and it was obvious that they were controlling it. I'm sure this event had to be controlled by one or both of our minds, but I'm not sure how.

[Jun]

Sounds like a "No true christian" argument.

Whatever

It's true, it was the exact same argument they'd give.

 

Buddhists don't "believe" anything.

They believe all that stuff you just posted.

 

Who is "they?"

 

Do you exclude me from this "they?" I am a Buddhist, do you know what I practice/follow/teach/believe?

 

It appears you have a picture in your mind about what Buddhism is. But, my friend, have you actually practiced Buddhism? Have you read anything that the Buddha actually taught? Or are you basing your "knowledge" on what is presented by certain "forms" of "Buddhism" or simply from what you have read in books?

[Evolution_beyond]

The laws of physics according to the Greeks was that photons were emitted from the eye. Leonardo implied otherwise, Newton proved otherwise.

 

 

Huygens' laws said things were waves. Einstein thought otherwise (Photoelectric effect). De Broglie proved it was a wave. Seems things vary according how we look... Now, ,to me, is a model, not a law. The pointing finger, most certainly not the moon.

A lot of people suck that finger for comfort instead of looking beyond it. Mostly the religious.

 

Now don't start talking of sucking digits. You'll get me all worked up - I'm a foot fetishist :tongue:

[Nude Disintegrating Parachutist]

Hi Jeff, I noticed in another thread on alcoholism that you said that you have had a problem from an early age with alcohol to the point that you started self medicating yourself in order just to get to sleep at night. You indicated that by age 18 you considered yourself to be a full blown alcoholic and that this pattern continued, and from what you indicated, got progressively worse over the next twenty of so years until you were diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, where you were finally able to get handle on the alcoholism but were then saddled with the knowledge a mental illness and the medication needed to treat it. To me all of this combined from an early age on the surface and without of course being able to live within your skin and know your expereinces personally, would none the less lead me to wonder if these events in your life could possible have been a contributing factor in your experiencing events you perceived as real and deriving from a supernatural source? With things like DT's, sleep depravation, waking dreams (or dreams in general), medication and hallucination as possibilities to be consided.

 

Also just out of curiosity what was the first experience you can remember that you said to yourself, that ain't natural, in other words what (and at what age) was the first experience you can remember attributing to a supernatural occurrence, and was it before or after the drinking started? I imagine it would be safe to assume that that the Bipolar Disorder could very well have been with you since birth or at least from a very early age so this too has to be factored in when looking at these exeperiences early on in your life. And also when was the last supernatural event you experienced, or are you still experiencing events you think are supernatural in origin?

 

As for myself, in the 49 years I have existed on this planet I can honestly say that I have never experienced anything that I could attribute to the supernatural, whether it be gods and devils, ghosts and goblins, demons and wizards or anything with the appearence of a magical mystical spiritual nature that couldn't be attributted to fear, delusion or outright fraud (all which are hallmarks of religion in my view), or be explained in a logical, natural way. Are there things that occur that we are unable to explain? Sure, but the fact that we can't explain them (yet) does not mean they are by default supernatural in nature, it doesn't mean they arn't either but my view of the world has always been as a realist and for me, unless, and until the world is filled with events of the supernatural on par with those of the biblical stories of old, or events like in the Ghostbusters movies, you know: "Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling. Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria, flames, and most importanly of all a voice saying "Zuul" coming from out of my fridge!", in other words these events need to be able to affect my world in a real and tangeble way that can be experienced and aknowledged by not just myself alone but by all of humanity. Everyone has to be able to experience the same thing as I do, both believers in the supernatural and non-believers alike. If the events only manifest themselves to me alone and no one else can see them or they can't be experienced or verified in some tangible way for others, I have no choice in my way of looking at the world but to conclude it may not be real, at least until better and more verifiable evidence comes in. I can't believe just in case it might be true, this goes for ghosts and gods alike, to do otherwise to me would be fear driven and as such, dishonest.

 

In other words for me to accept that the supernatural (spiritual) exists in what I perceive as the REAL world, the evidence for the supernatual will have to be so overwelming and I will have to be able to completly rule out all alternative possibilities and explanations before I would be able to even consider accepting them as real events and not just events internal to myself.

[NotBlinded]

The laws of physics according to the Greeks was that photons were emitted from the eye. Leonardo implied otherwise, Newton proved otherwise.

 

 

Huygens' laws said things were waves. Einstein thought otherwise (Photoelectric effect). De Broglie proved it was a wave. Seems things vary according how we look... Now, ,to me, is a model, not a law. The pointing finger, most certainly not the moon.

A lot of people suck that finger for comfort instead of looking beyond it. Mostly the religious.

 

Now don't start talking of sucking digits. You'll get me all worked up - I'm a foot fetishist :tongue:

 

 

 

[NotBlinded]

notblindedbytheblight said -

Atheistic with regards to a "supernatural" god though right? What if "god" is perfectly natural?

 

Mmmmm. God, natural? As in an unseen guiding/universal energy? I know you don't mean as in the bearded sky-daddy of the Abrahamic religions.

 

Yes, an unseen guiding/universal energy.

 

Stop that you!

 

 

We just don't understand so we keep attributing this lack of understanding to the supernatural.

 

Bingo! In my travels through Asia I've seen lots of things that are taken as being ordinary and natural occurances that Non-Asians attribute to being supernatural.

I just knew we agreed.