Religion Is Made Up

[Grandpa Harley]

Ever get the feeling I never meet 'normal' people?

[sojourner]

lol well I dont know if I would know a normal person if I met one!

 

Wow reading that brings back memories of my early life. When I met my husband he was on staff at a small AG church that was going thru a church split. Everyone was taking turns demonizing everyone else and the board meetings were a sight to see.

 

You would think I would have gotten a clue way back then but I was falling in love!

 

sojourner

[Antlerman]

You touch on another area where I believe that Christianity has evolved in a wrong direction. Many Christians see salvation as just going to Heaven when we die. This is not only not scriptural, but it puts off life for the future and can make some become so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good.

I agree 100%. I'll also highlight this to underscore what I said before, that religion is carnal-mindedness. Let me briefly explain, it's all about "me". It's all about them getting saved. It's a selfish thing, and is not spiritual at all. Not to sound too rude here, but it is how I see it. It's all a big masturbation using Jesus as the object of their fantasies. I apologize it sounds so offensive, but I find this self-gratifying, self-justifying approach to religion to be rude and offensive to others. It is the height of selfish pursuits, and their religion is therefore carnality. I wonder how many of them would still be believers if the were told they will just be dead when they die? I suspect their numbers would fall off really fast. This is why in part I started that debate, "What does Christianity offer others in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?"

 

I am sure that you know that the Greek word that was translated as saved or salvation is either sozo or soteria. I believe that the best translation of this word in this context is "to be made whole". My understanding of the truth hidden behind the story of the fall relates to this understanding of what it means to become saved and it has nothing to do with"original sin".

Again I agree. The story of the fall is all about this sense of separation. It's worth noting that that story in Genesis was borrowed from the Sumerian's, so this to me speaks of a truth greater than divine revelation. It says something about man's awareness of this sense within himself that transcends one culture. I don't see this in any literal sense, that man and God are two separate beings having a distinct relationship to each other, but as the struggle of man's aesthetic response to his environment in light of conscious awareness of his own distinctiveness. Really, the fall of man was literally awareness. It's a pretty good symbolic language, and the marvel of it is that it shows man was aware of this way back. It's just their vocabulary. (of course the Hebrews co-opting the myth caused some confusion in its use of symbols not part of its culture, but that's another issue).

 

I have expressed before that I see man as created triune. We are a spirit by which we know God and the spirit realm. We have a soul by which we interrelate with one another in the areas of mind, will, and emotions. Finally, both our spirit and soul live in a physical body by which we expreience and interact with the physical world through our five senses.

Here I have some differences. What exactly is the spirit realm to you? A place of disembodied beings? This is where I have difficulty making use of that language. I suppose I can use the language of God and angels as poetic expressions of some emotive response to existence, but I can't build a whole system of doctrinal truth surrounding something that is clearly outside tangible knowledge. "God expects..." is something that I could never justify intellectually.

 

In the same sense, what you say above about the parts of our beings in a triune sense, is most clearly traceable back to certain individuals in history and ensuing schools of thought that have been handed down through doctrines and instilled into our thinking. There's equally seven parts of the human in other cultures, or two, of five, or a hundred. None of these are a real reality, but merely created constructs to hang abstract ideas on to. This is what I mean by not being too much of a literalist. When you're not, then you are open to other ideas, and can grow.

 

 

Man chose to exclusively know good and evil through the means of his soul and our spirit became darkened in the process. We became overdeveloped in this one realm of our being and became super-souled. In order to do this, we turned our backs to the spirit world and to our knowledge of God.

I would put this differently. I see man getting caught up in his industry and his created gods that they become a separate reality themselves to him. So much so that he looses touch with his own heart and the pulse of life itself. Awareness indeed cause the fall. The awareness of our own god-like nature to create worlds, and in our case our desire to bring our worlds and the world we live in together. We are aware of the separation, and our desire for true Beauty is built directly into our physical being. This is where we find God in silence, or in song where no construct of human thought treads.

 

Different language. One that works better for me.

 

 

In the religious language that I choose (as you would say), I believe that Jesus came to save the world by reintroducing us to the spirit and giving us the choice to be saved by coming back into balance in our being. We cannot become in balance by now becoming so spiritual that we deny our intellect or soulical self. This would create the same out of balance problem, but just in another way. We deny ourselves or our physical and soulical selves so our spirit can arise and take its rightful place in our trinity.

Again, we mostly agree. Again also, I'd state it differently. Jesus, or Buddha, or whatever spiritual leader didn't/don't really reintroduce us to the spirit world, but perhaps help to awake what was already there. "Those that have ears to hear, let him hear." A friend of mine recently credited her path of spiritual pursuit to a couple individuals in her life. She had stated that if they had not talked to her, she would still be where she was without having given it further thought. I was quick to disagree with that, stating that it's something that is already inside and was already pushing itself against the soil to get out. All that others do is turn the soil a little, but the whole life and push of it comes from the individual themselves. "Guides" are probably far better terms, than "Saviors". In fact many early Christians did view Jesus as more a guide, than a savior. They were branded heretics of course!

 

Where I really agree is the idea of balance. Absolutely. That's my pursuit. Salvation is all about being freed from religion, or fear, or worries, or any other prison that holds our thoughts and hearts captive. All of those is what I would define as the carnal mind, not one where you embrace your physicality. Spirituality should include the physical as well.

 

I see all religous activity as different manifestations of man's attempt to once again know ourselves as we are. This inner knowledge of "something more" that we are meant to be is why Christians pray and worship, why Bhuddists meditate, why Native Americans eat peyote and sit in sweat lodges. In fact, it is why some become ghost busters and psychic freinds. These are all different ways to explore the part of us that has remained dorment for so long.

 

At least, this is how I see it at this point on my road to become a balanced son of God.

 

John

The only thing I would add is that there are many pursuits that achieve this for humans, from art, to music, poetry, ritual, silence, love, etc. These too are all manifestations of what is in the heart. This to me speaks of the naturalness of beauty in the universe. It's not a creation, it just is and we are part of that. As I said before, it's becoming the poem of life. Being life itself.

[sojourner]

Wow

 

Antlerman I loved that post. I wish I were as eloquent as you with language!

 

just beautiful

 

 

sojourner

[florduh]

When I first read the title, "Religion is Made Up" I thought, duh! How long could this thread last? How complex can it become?

 

As I followed the comments, I still haven't changed my mind. If you know your religion is made up, it is nonsensical to adhere to its teachings. There are plenty of people more than willing to tell you what god wants from you, how to live your life, and generally what to believe. It's all just made up.

 

So let's say I'm feeling a little spiritual and want someone to explain it all to me. Well, religious/spiritual leaders and writers don't know any more than I do. There are no facts involved, just guesses and feelings. When I find my true religion, it's just the musings of someone else who thinks and guesses like I already do. That's how I know it's the right religion.

 

Sorry, I don't get it.

 

- Chris

[Grandpa Harley]

"why Christians pray and worship, why Bhuddists meditate, why Native Americans eat peyote and sit in sweat lodges."

 

It's the same reason as people took Opium, Heroin, Morphine, Cocaine, LSD, etc... it introduces a chemical to the pink meat between our ears that makes us feel 'good' Wholly 'carnal'... Ecstasy is ecstasy, be it orgiastic or induced by sensory deprivation or running raw hide through your pectorals and swinging from a post to insane drum beats... hell, it's really just a form of menatal masturbation, just with a less messy orgasm. Endorphins.

 

TBH, the quoted comment just illustrates a pretty clear, not to say studied, ignorance of neuro-chemistry and physiology... argument from ignorance is no argument...

[hereticzero]

Ever get the feeling I never meet 'normal' people?

I don't think you ever meet 'normal' people either, GH.

[hereticzero]

lol well I dont know if I would know a normal person if I met one!

 

Wow reading that brings back memories of my early life. When I met my husband he was on staff at a small AG church that was going thru a church split. Everyone was taking turns demonizing everyone else and the board meetings were a sight to see.

 

You would think I would have gotten a clue way back then but I was falling in love!

 

sojourner

As a preacher's kid, I've seen a few splits in churches. Most of them, that I have seen, were due to charismatics coming into the church and trying to take control over everything from hiring new people to how the services were to be run. All they succeeded in doing were destroying the working organzation of the church and everyone quit coming and the church eventually closed its doors and sold the building. I know one church that split and then the charismatics changed the name of the church on the building and just assumed it was theirs. The problem was the church was owned by the Baptist Convention at the time. the charasmatic church failed again on that point and they were forced out of the building, which sat vacant for a couple of years. Sojourner is right, the church starts pointing fingers and name-calling prior to collapsing in on itself. The more power the christian church loses, the more desperate it will become. I can see another major conflict in the US over the church losing its political influence until it tries to take the country by force in order to suppress any voice against it. The church is devious. Watch any Pat Robertson show on the 700 Club. These morons do not stay on tv without the support of the majority of christian churches in this country and from gathering tithes from overseas as well. It is the evil empire and a franchise from hell.

[Deva]

Since Antlerman brought up vocabulary, I confess to a hatred of Christianese - words that only Christians would use. I am prejudiced that way. The word "carnal" -- who uses it? Not in modern English do you hear it outside a Church or a Bible study of Paul. Terminology such as "travelling mercies" (from another thread) "Jesus in your heart", "Personal Relationship with Christ" "man is created triune". What the deuce do these things mean when dealing with day-to-day life?

 

I am even developing an aversion to the word "spiritual". I think it is basically meaningless, just like the word "God". No one knows what it means unless the person using it bothers to define it.

 

The story of the fall being a story of awareness is one that I can subscribe to as its deep meaning, but its a fact that hardly any Christians I have ever known would see it that way. This whole issue of language is a very difficult one. We could do an entire separate thread on it.

 

florduh said:

Well, religious/spiritual leaders and writers don't know any more than I do. There are no facts involved, just guesses and feelings. When I find my true religion, it's just the musings of someone else who thinks and guesses like I already do. That's how I know it's the right religion.

 

I think there is a lot of truth in that florduh, except that I think "just feelings" is a bit dismissive. It seems to me that feelings matter a lot to human beings. Life can slam a person down very hard, and religion is a way of dealing with feelings that otherwise might be very hard to cope with. Is it better than hard drugs? Probably so. Does it have anything to do with reality? In most cases, probably not, but do we make our own reality?

 

Just some rambling thoughts.

[Antlerman]

So let's say I'm feeling a little spiritual and want someone to explain it all to me.

That's actually the first mistake that make people vulnerable to hucksters: Wanting someone else to explain it.

 

Well, religious/spiritual leaders and writers don't know any more than I do. There are no facts involved, just guesses and feelings.

If they claim they have facts, then they know less than what might otherwise make them insightful.

 

When I find my true religion, it's just the musings of someone else who thinks and guesses like I already do. That's how I know it's the right religion.

In short, it's when you find what works for you. That actually is "being on the path". But the trick is finding what is really is you want, rather living by what others which has been programmed into us through culture. Separating that out and finding what that is, is the beginning of finding what works to make you fulfilled.

 

My religion is simple: There is no answer, only layers of truth that are always changing and shifting as we discover them. My core saying is from Shakespeare, "This above all: to thine own self be true." No one can tell you who you are. You have to explain it to yourself.

 

So in a sense, it is all made up, and the opening post seems to make that point.

 

"why Christians pray and worship, why Bhuddists meditate, why Native Americans eat peyote and sit in sweat lodges."

 

It's the same reason as people took Opium, Heroin, Morphine, Cocaine, LSD, etc... it introduces a chemical to the pink meat between our ears that makes us feel 'good' Wholly 'carnal'... Ecstasy is ecstasy, be it orgiastic or induced by sensory deprivation or running raw hide through your pectorals and swinging from a post to insane drum beats... hell, it's really just a form of menatal masturbation, just with a less messy orgasm. Endorphins.

 

TBH, the quoted comment just illustrates a pretty clear, not to say studied, ignorance of neuro-chemistry and physiology... argument from ignorance is no argument...

Do you believe the Native American Peyote cultures were about recreational drug use, like crack-heads?

[Antlerman]

The story of the fall being a story of awareness is one that I can subscribe to as its deep meaning, but its a fact that hardly any Christians I have ever known would see it that way. This whole issue of language is a very difficult one. We could do an entire separate thread on it.

It seems so sad that they wouldn't understand that. It makes what their whole redemption mythology is supposed to represent be a tad bit impotent. The whole thing is a human story that humans wrote in symbolic languages.

 

Yes, I'm planning to start my second thread on this in a little while. Just don't have the time to commit to it right now. It's just seeing past the literalness of the words, either literally true, or literally false.

 

P.S. Yes, I too am really annoyed with trite cliches, or little "sound bites" in the Christianese nonsense. The words are meaningless. Just as meaningless as any political rhetoric that barrages our ears and insults our intelligence.

[Kratos]

Do you believe the Native American Peyote cultures were about recreational drug use, like crack-heads?

 

AM,

 

I would probably just be another workaholic, non-practicing former Catholic if I had not read "The Teachings of Don Juan" by Carlos Castaneda in High School. Instead, I am a heretical Universalist still searching for what is real beyond what we can see and hear. LOL

 

John

[sojourner]

Deva,

 

I think its very good for those of us that really want to expand our horizons to call us on our 'christianeze'. Its very eye opening to hear ourselves thru others ears. I really blush when I realize how Ive talked for so long and some of the things I do and honestly when I first landed here I had no idea how so much of my language had become very tribal if you will.

 

looking forward to the new thread on communication and these languages

 

sojourner

[Grandpa Harley]

So let's say I'm feeling a little spiritual and want someone to explain it all to me.

That's actually the first mistake that make people vulnerable to hucksters: Wanting someone else to explain it.

 

Well, religious/spiritual leaders and writers don't know any more than I do. There are no facts involved, just guesses and feelings.

If they claim they have facts, then they know less than what might otherwise make them insightful.

 

When I find my true religion, it's just the musings of someone else who thinks and guesses like I already do. That's how I know it's the right religion.

In short, it's when you find what works for you. That actually is "being on the path". But the trick is finding what is really is you want, rather living by what others which has been programmed into us through culture. Separating that out and finding what that is, is the beginning of finding what works to make you fulfilled.

 

My religion is simple: There is no answer, only layers of truth that are always changing and shifting as we discover them. My core saying is from Shakespeare, "This above all: to thine own self be true." No one can tell you who you are. You have to explain it to yourself.

 

So in a sense, it is all made up, and the opening post seems to make that point.

 

"why Christians pray and worship, why Bhuddists meditate, why Native Americans eat peyote and sit in sweat lodges."

 

It's the same reason as people took Opium, Heroin, Morphine, Cocaine, LSD, etc... it introduces a chemical to the pink meat between our ears that makes us feel 'good' Wholly 'carnal'... Ecstasy is ecstasy, be it orgiastic or induced by sensory deprivation or running raw hide through your pectorals and swinging from a post to insane drum beats... hell, it's really just a form of menatal masturbation, just with a less messy orgasm. Endorphins.

 

TBH, the quoted comment just illustrates a pretty clear, not to say studied, ignorance of neuro-chemistry and physiology... argument from ignorance is no argument...

Do you believe the Native American Peyote cultures were about recreational drug use, like crack-heads?

 

Pretty much. An Endorphin high is really just a party in your head for one... so why paint getting peyoted out of your skull as 'noble savage' or overtly mystical... It's just another damned religion and religions are recreational... they serve no real purpose beyond crowd control and feeling better about the fact life is crap, then you die... it's like prayer... it only helps subjectively...

 

you got a positive spin on it?

[Antlerman]

Do you believe the Native American Peyote cultures were about recreational drug use, like crack-heads?

 

Pretty much. An Endorphin high is really just a party in your head for one... so why paint getting peyoted out of your skull as 'noble savage' or overtly mystical... It's just another damned religion and religions are recreational... they serve no real purpose beyond crowd control and feeling better about the fact life is crap, then you die... it's like prayer... it only helps subjectively...

 

you got a positive spin on it?

Why sure. The pursuit of the aesthetic. Alternative ways of perceiving ourselves and our world. Expansion of thought. All of which sheds light on ourselves, which helps the whole of humanity I believe. Why bother with anything that pushes the boundaries beyond the thought of basic functionality: Eating, defecating, maybe procreating, dying? Is all this about feeling better about life than that? Sure, but so is any pursuit that offers any form of aesthetic perspective. But then, is aesthetic perspective a luxury, or is in a necessity to survival? My argument is that there is more to life than just being a feeding machine.

 

I'll start with that.

[Grandpa Harley]

and looking at animals, it's the successful ones that play, they've got the 'not dying' bit sorted and it's time for 'fun', whether recreational sex, getting stoned, or writing the great american novel... it's just something to do between survival stuff and it floods one with endorphins... Seems to me it's just making up a new language to make it sound 'nice'...

 

why do lambs frolic? It serves no purpose... but it feels good... and in the end, it either feels 'good' or it doesn't... and since you're making wild assertions, prove it... prove we're not just an over engineered feeding, breeding, survival machine... after all it's a mighty high falutin' opinion for a bald ape who used to have an imaginary friend...

[Antlerman]

and since you're making wild assertions, prove it... prove we're not just an over engineered feeding, breeding, survival machine... after all it's a mighty high falutin' opinion for a bald ape who used to have an imaginary friend...

Are you wishing to provoke me?

[The-Captain]

Well this thread has taken a turn. Must be high noon.

 

I'll just sit on the sidelines for this one....

 

Anyone else wish this could go down in the Arena?

[Antlerman]

Well this thread has taken a turn.

 

I'll just sit on the sidelines for this one....

nah, there's not going to be a fight. Just checking the pulse.

[The-Captain]

Well this thread has taken a turn.

 

I'll just sit on the sidelines for this one....

nah, there's not going to be a fight. Just checking the pulse.

 

Oh nothing as primitive as all that. Its always interesting to see what happens when two educated minds with firm and polar positions meet.

[Antlerman]

Well this thread has taken a turn.

 

I'll just sit on the sidelines for this one....

nah, there's not going to be a fight. Just checking the pulse.

 

Oh nothing as primitive as all that. Its always interesting to see what happens when two educated minds with firm and polar positions meet.

he's just contrary.

[florduh]

florduh said:

Well, religious/spiritual leaders and writers don't know any more than I do. There are no facts involved, just guesses and feelings. When I find my true religion, it's just the musings of someone else who thinks and guesses like I already do. That's how I know it's the right religion.

 

I think there is a lot of truth in that florduh, except that I think "just feelings" is a bit dismissive. It seems to me that feelings matter a lot to human beings. Life can slam a person down very hard, and religion is a way of dealing with feelings that otherwise might be very hard to cope with. Is it better than hard drugs? Probably so. Does it have anything to do with reality? In most cases, probably not, but do we make our own reality?

 

Just some rambling thoughts.

 

I didn't mean to be dismissive as to the importance of feelings. We all want to feel good! I just intended to point out that religions spring from the subjective rather than anything based in known, or knowable, fact. That's what it means to say that religion is made up. Someone else's guesses and feelings about the "Meaning of Life" are no more valid than your own. We all make up our views of reality. Why adopt someone else's? When life takes a bad turn, believing that a god is watching over you, or that everything happens for a reason, or we are all one great immortal spirit helps you get through it. Doesn't make it true, but if you can believe it, it will help. I have a problem suspending my disbelief long enough to benefit from the supernatural solutions.

 

- Chris

[Deva]

I didn't mean to be dismissive as to the importance of feelings. We all want to feel good! I just intended to point out that religions spring from the subjective rather than anything based in known, or knowable, fact. That's what it means to say that religion is made up. Someone else's guesses and feelings about the "Meaning of Life" are no more valid than your own. We all make up our views of reality. Why adopt someone else's? When life takes a bad turn, believing that a god is watching over you, or that everything happens for a reason, or we are all one great immortal spirit helps you get through it. Doesn't make it true, but if you can believe it, it will help. I have a problem suspending my disbelief long enough to benefit from the supernatural solutions.

 

- Chris

 

Yes, why adopt someone else's views? That is a good question. You are as alive and human as they are, why are their views superior in these matters?

 

As far as religions being subjective rather than anything based in the "known" -- there are many philosophers down through thousands of years (especially in India) that have said its ALL subjective, everything is conceptual and the world, as it appears, is an illusion. No need for the "supernatural". There is no question about it-- our senses are limited. We know objects are not really solid, for example. Most of what is in the universe is empty space or now the scientists are saying dark matter.

 

I continue to be fascinated and impressed by the power of the religious imagination, if you will, to help people cope with the most difficult of life's circumstances aside from the "truth" of it or not.

[The-Captain]

Explain which bit? However I'd prefer A-man's 'why we're special and it's not recreational' spiel plzokthnx

 

Arena? Arena! Arena! Arena! A-REN-AAA!!

 

It would be damm cool if you guys had the time and energy for it.

[Neon Genesis]

As a whole, I can understand finding value in the symbols of myths even when we don't believe the myths to be true. After all, I pretty much do the same thing whenever I read fantasy and science fiction. The problem I have with this thread though isn't why we can't find value in fictional myths that we don't believe in but the problem I have is why is the bible needed? At this point the bible just seems redundant to me. If we accept that all religion is made up and that the bible is likewise also made up, then other religions are now just as valid as the bible is. It's been discussed in other threads that hardly anything in the bible is original and that the bible borrows heavily from other religions. If we accept that the bible is made up and is just as valid as other made up religions, and that it borrows heavily from previous older religions, why do we need to turn to the bible when we can find the same exact themes that are presented in the bible presented in other more original religions? I guess another way of looking at it is if religion was never accepted as real, would the creators of Mithraism had sued the bible authors for plagiarism and would we have bothered giving the bible any respect at all in the first place? I look at the bible as being like reading a cliched fantasy book. Sure, I could read a cliched fantasy book if I really wanted to and maybe even find value in the book's messages, but why should I bother with reading a cliched fantasy book when I could be reading a much more creative and original fantasy book that contains the same themes as the cliched fantasy book? I guess it all goes back to that saying that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." If you can still find value in a myth you don't believe in that isn't even original, that's great for you, but the bible's myth just doesn't have any value for me anymore. And why should I bother finding value in a cliched fantasy book like the bible when I can just as easily find other fantasy books that I think are more original and that inspire me more than what the bible does?