Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 and since you're making wild assertions, prove it... prove we're not just an over engineered feeding, breeding, survival machine... after all it's a mighty high falutin' opinion for a bald ape who used to have an imaginary friend... Are you wishing to provoke me? Not overly... but it is a statement of fact for all of us... put as baldly as I could muster; we carry the prejudice that there is 'more to life'... so I'd like to see how any of us justify it... (and you know damn well I can state the counter case for the necessity of Jung Space to our survival, with anthropological back up if required:fdevil: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 and you know damn well I can state the counter case for the necessity of Jung Space to our survival, with anthropological back up if required I'm curious. I'd like to know, if you don't mind explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Explain which bit? However I'd prefer A-man's 'why we're special and it's not recreational' spiel plzokthnx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 and since you're making wild assertions, prove it... prove we're not just an over engineered feeding, breeding, survival machine... after all it's a mighty high falutin' opinion for a bald ape who used to have an imaginary friend... Are you wishing to provoke me? Not overly... but it is a statement of fact for all of us... put as baldly as I could muster; we carry the prejudice that there is 'more to life'... so I'd like to see how any of us justify it... (and you know damn well I can state the counter case for the necessity of Jung Space to our survival, with anthropological back up if required:fdevil: ) I'm not proposing any such thing as Jung Space. I do think that what I'm talking about is more than just play. You can reference all my posts about the aesthetic experience. Are aesthetics for the sake of "getting high" chemically? Frankly, who cares the underlying impulses? Can you likewise "prove" (since proof appears so important in the context of feeling free to experience living to some) that that is in fact what motivates all of these things? Even so, whatever the mechanisms that drive creation, the end product is something that is integral to the experience of life and our humanity. This is the problem I have with turning to pure rationality. It doesn't seem to want to acknowledge things that are born from the human genius that are "irrational" in nature. You can read all my recent posts about beauty to get a clearer picture of how I'm looking at this. I think there is evidence to support that view, but frankly I don't even see that as altogether necessary, since I see the argument for proofs to be somewhat besides the point in this context. I'm a relativist, you know? P.S. It might work better next time if you wish to challenge me if you were a bit less insulting. Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Explain which bit? However I'd prefer A-man's 'why we're special and it's not recreational' spiel plzokthnx No, I'm serious, I'm not sure what Jung Space is. Is it the same as synchronicity and collective unconsciousness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Jung Space - a state of mind where we think symbolicly... effectively, the 'place' the mind goes during 'mystical' experience, either endorphin or psychoactive drug induced where the conscious and the unconscious 'meet' and can have a two way exchange of information... it's then the conscious mind translating personal and cultural archtypes (the warrior, the villain, the deceiver , the saviour, the patient friend, the star crossed lover, the aged sage, the fool, the student, the journeyman, the paladin, the wounded king, etc...) for instance... 1950s it was found that Amazonian shamen could identify good and poisonous plants of unknown species to them, in unfamiliar territory, and previously unknown (to them) species, while under the influence of their hallucinogen of choice because the 'spirit' of the plants told them what their properties were. 99 times out of 100 they were correct about good eating, bad eating and medicinal uses. The most likely mechanism is that they picked up unconsciously the animal and insect behaviours around the plants and, on breaking the wall down between the conscious and unconscious mind (that is entering Jung Space) the information synthesised into something useful... I'd have to do some digging among my stacks to find the chapter and verse, but that's the thrust of it... there are other studies in Africa, Borneo, and other wild places that the same thing has been observed since the mid-19th C (the earlier stuff takes a lot more of the view it's devils, since it was missionary observed) The lead into abstract and religious thought from such usage of altered states then becomes apparent, as does the concept of 'beauty' which is an abstract of an abstract quality... and "P.S. It might work better next time if you wish to challenge me if you were a bit less insulting. Just asking." It may also work better if you didn't take it personally... just sayin'... but I'm still your cupcake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Ah. So it's the collective unconsciousness it's referring to. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Yes, sort of... I don't view it as collective, just mostly common... I doubt my archetypal warrior is the same as anyone one else's here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Okay. Kind of "shared" rather than "united"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Okay. Kind of "shared" rather than "united"? Pretty much... it's common by virtue of the way 100,000 years of breeding has wired us, overlaid by culture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I read a very interesting book by a guy that is a universalist that studied dna in college. He makes the point that cellular memory could be much more vast than we have thought. That locked in each cell could be a collective memory. I dont know if this theory has a name but if it could be true. Then wouldnt some folks possibly be accessing that memory? And if that is possible then we actually have access to every thought that has ever inspired mankind, rewriting them thru our own 'inspirational experiences' that are not all that subjective perhaps but rather we take what is there and rewrite it in our own language if you will? Has anyone else studied this or know of studies on it? sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I don't know. Personally, I have hard time buying into the genetic memory idea. There is however some clear evidence that there's a "dietary" memory. What we eat will effect the quality of genes for our offspring and can even give a health effect for several generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 sounds dangerously close to 'race memory' stuff of Bulwer-Lytton... Universalist thought does seem to rely a lot on Theosophy... As to individual cellular memory, that's a given... otherwise scars would vanish and you'd not get things like 'old football injuries' acting up since the body would simply go back to how it was. It remembers the injury. in a world with no cellular memory, God would heal amputees... One of the more interesting areas is one of the great mysteries of endocrinology, where by a gland can respond to external stimulus faster than the nervous system could fire in response to the same stimulus... for example, if someone steps out in front of your vehicle while driving, your adrenal glands will respond before they could get a signal from the brain, and before your foot has got the signal to stamp on the brake or your hands to try and veer away from the person... but, according to 'conventional' wisdom, the adrenal glands have to get a signal from the brain to fire up... whereas the brain sends a confirmation to continue excreting adrenalin. That implies that a form of intelligence is not local to the brain, and is aware of what's going on 'outside' but without recourse to the wired telegraph of the nervous system. I've read theories about it being to do with the endogenous magnetic field, but nothing that really explains what's going on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I read a very interesting book by a guy that is a universalist that studied dna in college. He makes the point that cellular memory could be much more vast than we have thought. That locked in each cell could be a collective memory. I dont know if this theory has a name but if it could be true. Then wouldnt some folks possibly be accessing that memory? And if that is possible then we actually have access to every thought that has ever inspired mankind, rewriting them thru our own 'inspirational experiences' that are not all that subjective perhaps but rather we take what is there and rewrite it in our own language if you will? Has anyone else studied this or know of studies on it? sojourner I would think that memory would be quite beyond cellular DNA. Thats the province of the neural pathways of our cerebral cortex. Im no biologist but it would seem impossible for those configurations to be passed along through DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Depends on the encoding mechanism. BT have been working on encrpytion/decryption that encodes on single molecules of a lot lower complexity than DNA... there's no reason WHY you can't encode on any electro-magneticly active substrate material... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I guess there's two different things that has to be looked at regarding cellular memory, because certain behaviors and personality is transfered from generation to generation. But it's through selection of the best fitted at work, mutations that are beneficial and the next generation keeps that mutation because it gives them a slightly better chance of survival. In that sense, genetic memory works, but when it comes to particular memories, like that I ate a pancake this morning or drank some coffee or chatted online in this forum, those memories aren't stored in genetic code, it would be infinitely long if all memories were kept there, and which cell would be the super-storage DNA cell? And how would that individual/particular memory-cell be transfered to the offspring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Depends on the encoding mechanism. BT have been working on encrpytion/decryption that encodes on single molecules of a lot lower complexity than DNA... there's no reason WHY you can't encode on any electro-magneticly active substrate material... Possible yes. But occuring through natrual means? Doubtful. My but we are hijacking this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 sounds dangerously close to 'race memory' stuff of Bulwer-Lytton... Universalist thought does seem to rely a lot on Theosophy... Gramps, I would be interested if you could expand upon how Universalist thought seems to rely on Theosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 I guess there's two different things that has to be looked at regarding cellular memory, because certain behaviors and personality is transfered from generation to generation. But it's through selection of the best fitted at work, mutations that are beneficial and the next generation keeps that mutation because it gives them a slightly better chance of survival. In that sense, genetic memory works, but when it comes to particular memories, like that I ate a pancake this morning or drank some coffee or chatted online in this forum, those memories aren't stored in genetic code, it would be infinitely long if all memories were kept there, and which cell would be the super-storage DNA cell? And how would that individual/particular memory-cell be transfered to the offspring? Why linear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Why linear? I don't see how. It's roughly the same number of atoms in every DNA, for every generation. So are you suggesting that the memory is stored somehow on the quantum level with superpositions? Or are we talking about something metaphysical here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Okay. Lets have at it. Like most every other subject, this is interesting, and I'm curious about the different opinions regarding this topic. Maybe I should have put it under one of the other sections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 My but we are hijacking this thread... I blame Soj! You're okay Soj, no worries. I suggest that someone start a new thread about Cell/Genetic memory, Jung Space and ... whatever goes into whatever subject it would be... Problem is, thought isn't linear, neither is a subject... when you get into the the idea that anything is a thought construct you get into the nature of cognition, psychology, physiology (since our brain is an organ), memory, history or any of the allied subjects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Why linear? I don't see how. It's roughly the same number of atoms in every DNA, for every generation. So are you suggesting that the memory is stored somehow on the quantum level with superpositions? Or are we talking about something metaphysical here? Metaphysical - Gramps... not a logical possiblity There are numerous ways to store information on a molecule without adding a single atom of mass to it... change the magnetic moment, alter the distance on a molecular bond chaings a property et seq... the concept of superposition is just one and all the methods I know are 'quantum' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 sounds dangerously close to 'race memory' stuff of Bulwer-Lytton... Universalist thought does seem to rely a lot on Theosophy... Gramps, I would be interested if you could expand upon how Universalist thought seems to rely on Theosophy. Mostly in the adiaphora. There's a lot of stuff ripped off wholesale from Eastern thought, and it's usually lensed through the old cigar chomper herself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Okay. Lets have at it. Like most every other subject, this is interesting, and I'm curious about the different opinions regarding this topic. Maybe I should have put it under one of the other sections? Coliseum should be fine. I'm a little out of my league in this discussion, so I'll just jump in when I see something I can respond to. In the meantime I'll be sitting in the corner reading science books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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