Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Well, this subject isn't my bit either, so I'll just throw in some wrenches in the cogs now-n-then. But since I love sci-fi and such, of course this is attracting my attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Grandpa, Are you talking about Blavatsky (not sure if that is how her name is spelled)? sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Metaphysical - Gramps... not a logical possiblity There are numerous ways to store information on a molecule without adding a single atom of mass to it... change the magnetic moment, alter the distance on a molecular bond chaings a property et seq... the concept of superposition is just one and all the methods I know are 'quantum' Lets say the magnetic direction was one of the ways, you still would be very limited in amount of information. Take the idea of storing visual information. Even if you simplify it and make some compression, it would incredible large amounts of data. I don't know how to make a calculation of it, but it just doesn't sound feasible... but that's my opinion. And even if you could store it, you need some kind of process how the cognitive experience is transfered into the state of magnetic fields or such, and then the question still is, does it do this on all cells in the body or only on some? If all at once, at all times, then how is that possible? If only some, lets say in the brain, how do those cells get transfered to the sex cells so it can get inherited by the next generation? Or is the transference from a persons memory-cells done in some other fashion? Would everyone think it was okay if I moved these posts about this subject to the new thread I opened? link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Grandpa, Are you talking about Blavatsky (not sure if that is how her name is spelled)? sojourner that's the chap... could out swear a sailor and smoked cigars... I believe the epithet 'Colourful' could easily be applied to dear old Helena. Prima facie case of someone making up a religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Metaphysical - Gramps... not a logical possiblity There are numerous ways to store information on a molecule without adding a single atom of mass to it... change the magnetic moment, alter the distance on a molecular bond chaings a property et seq... the concept of superposition is just one and all the methods I know are 'quantum' Lets say the magnetic direction was one of the ways, you still would be very limited in amount of information. Take the idea of storing visual information. Even if you simplify it and make some compression, it would incredible large amounts of data. I don't know how to make a calculation of it, but it just doesn't sound feasible... but that's my opinion. And even if you could store it, you need some kind of process how the cognitive experience is transfered into the state of magnetic fields or such, and then the question still is, does it do this on all cells in the body or only on some? If all at once, at all times, then how is that possible? If only some, lets say in the brain, how do those cells get transfered to the sex cells so it can get inherited by the next generation? Or is the transference from a persons memory-cells done in some other fashion? Would everyone think it was okay if I moved these posts about this subject to the new thread I opened? link Live it up dear heart! and just bacuse we don't know and can't see a mechanism doesn't mean it's either not there or too complex... The Doctor agued it's too complex to be natural... well, that's a familiar refrain... where have I heard it before... ah yes... people say that about life forms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Damn, I think it worked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Jung Space - a state of mind where we think symbolicly... effectively, the 'place' the mind goes during 'mystical' experience, either endorphin or psychoactive drug induced where the conscious and the unconscious 'meet' and can have a two way exchange of information... it's then the conscious mind translating personal and cultural archtypes (the warrior, the villain, the deceiver , the saviour, the patient friend, the star crossed lover, the aged sage, the fool, the student, the journeyman, the paladin, the wounded king, etc...) for instance... This does seem to suggest that those who take drugs for this sort of experience are going there for more a pursuit of new perception, new insights, etc, and not the recreational drug use thing I was disputing in the criticism of the Peyote cultures. The intent is not to simply get high and trip out. Not sure what my thoughts are about the suggestion of this space, but my thoughts about beauty being an innate part of the system of life are not dependent on this. "P.S. It might work better next time if you wish to challenge me if you were a bit less insulting. Just asking." It may also work better if you didn't take it personally... just sayin'... but I'm still your cupcake Despite those many stolen nights of hot, steamy love we shared, there are limits to the abuse I'm willing to take at your rough, penetrating hands... darling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 If there is a collective memory in dna perhaps in that dark little center science does not know all the info about, what if in there is hidden a collective memory base, in each person running all the way back thru their generations. Just as in your own life you backfile things and at times something resurfaces and you instantly remember just as if you were reliving the event from your childhood. Often it is set off by a smell, or place or something. What is there is also a collective happening that is similar? And hence the retelling of the same stories and myths that inspire mankind all thru their history changed somewhat in each generation as they are 'inspired' when that inspiration is just a memory surfacing? just some thoughts I have but am a total blonde at this stuff sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Mostly in the adiaphora. There's a lot of stuff ripped off wholesale from Eastern thought, and it's usually lensed through the old cigar chomper herself... Well Gramps, thanks for teaching me a new word! Adiaphora. I have read "The Key to Theosophy", portions of "The Secret Doctrine" among other T.S. works. Are you specifically referring to the idea that humans eventually achieve a spiritual perfection? Agreed it was a lot of stuff from Eastern thought but I had never made a connection with universalism in its Christian sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Continuing on my thoughts, it is also very interesting to me how in our lives often we are drawn to certain cultures that we have no explanation for. I was always drawn to celtic and asian cultures. I did discover that in my ancestry there is welsh blood, have not looked to see if there is asian as well but I wouldnt be suprised. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 If there is a collective memory in dna perhaps in that dark little center science does not know all the info about, what if in there is hidden a collective memory base, in each person running all the way back thru their generations. Just as in your own life you backfile things and at times something resurfaces and you instantly remember just as if you were reliving the event from your childhood. Often it is set off by a smell, or place or something. What is there is also a collective happening that is similar? And hence the retelling of the same stories and myths that inspire mankind all thru their history changed somewhat in each generation as they are 'inspired' when that inspiration is just a memory surfacing? just some thoughts I have but am a total blonde at this stuff sojourner Or is the resurfacing and similarity coming from reaction to common circumstance? While genetic memory (in the sense we usually consider memory) is possible, my point is that it is entirely unlikely. Not that the compression and transmission of the data couldnt happen given what Gramps is saying. But the formats seem to be incompatible to me, neural networks and specific pathways to DNA? I would think its a physical impossibility, at the least an improbability. I'm not arguing that such a system would be too complex to arrive by natrual means. But has anything comparable or relevant been observed? I'm just asking not stating, I really dont know. Given what little I know of biology, genetics, and anatomy there seems to be no reason to think we have genetic memory in that sense. Just my thoughts Im out of my element here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Continuing on my thoughts, it is also very interesting to me how in our lives often we are drawn to certain cultures that we have no explanation for I have wondered the same thing, since I have an affinity for India that can't be explained by my background - English, Scottish and Norwegian. Almost enough to persuade me to reincarnation. Even my father questioned me on it. It beats me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Hey Doc Well I have no clue how it would work lol Just imagining here, no scientist obviously haha Wouldnt it be wild though if many of the diseases that are passed on genetically were found to be memory and there was a way to wipe the memory clean. Dreaming here sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Here's another problem, why do people get worse memory when they get older? Is this "cell memory" system only one way for personal experience, but only the other way for ancestry memory? Why doesn't this memory system take over and help the people suffering from alzheimer and dementia? Or would it be that this DNA memory is disabled somehow through illness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Is instinct genetic memory? While humans dont have that in abundance we do have some, aversion to spiders, fear of heights etc. Who knows though, maybe these things we are talking about are our instinct? Could cultural affinity be some form of human instinct? Its hard to look to nature for all our precedent, while we are still animals we seem to be taking a distinct evolutionary path. The path of the mind perhaps, rather than the path of resilience or proliferation? We might not be able to compare everything we do to other species because we are going into uncharted territory. Maybe culture, religion, aesthetics and all are becoming innate parts of our form of life? I ramble and my imagination runs away with me. But I think there are new things under the sun and mankind may be a step in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I dont know Hans, very interesting There is a time when our cells take on specific job descriptions right? And from then on they only access what is their own instructions in the instruction manual that is in cells, if I recall right that is. If there are built in dams if you will that keep a liver cell from suddenly reaccessing what it was like before he became specifically a liver cell and perhaps getting a hankering to revert. Then perhaps there are collective dams as well. do I make any sense at all? lol sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 I'm half Irish and a lot of Viking... neither culture appeals at any level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 BTW I think some of the Theosophy stuff belongs in the other thread... but I'm not sure... it's the jump point for this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Is instinct genetic memory? While humans dont have that in abundance we do have some, aversion to spiders, fear of heights etc. Yes, I think it would be, in a sense. The genetic code contains the blue-print for the part of the brain that would instill these fears. But the question is, is that blue-print encoded in the gene through some prehistoric person getting scared by a spider, or by beneficial mutations that got selected because those individuals that didn't have the genetic code would be killed off through poisonous spider bites? It's Darwin's model against Lamarck's. The Soviet union tried the Lamarck model by planting spuds in frosty ground to "evolve" it, or train it, to become frost resistant. But they failed severely, and people starved. One of many reasons why their 5 year plans wasn't that great. You have to have the right understanding of nature before you go on a five year stint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 and then there is the ability of parasitic fungi to affect behaviour of it's host moth such that it goes to the highest vantage point and dies to spread the spores, when the innate sense of the moth has it hide among leaves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 BTW, every culture seems to have a flying lizard archetype and a 'malign little people' one too... which could either point to a species memory, or to real little people and dragons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I dont know Hans, very interesting There is a time when our cells take on specific job descriptions right? And from then on they only access what is their own instructions in the instruction manual that is in cells, if I recall right that is. If there are built in dams if you will that keep a liver cell from suddenly reaccessing what it was like before he became specifically a liver cell and perhaps getting a hankering to revert. Then perhaps there are collective dams as well. do I make any sense at all? lol sojourner So the collective or shared memory would be stored in the liver? Then, would it make me smarted and get new accessible memories and knowledge by eating the liver? Didn't they used to think, long time ago, that the liver was the place of the soul? I think it was in some ancient times. Still, how would it go from the liver to the sex cells for memory-transfer for the offspring? And does this mean that my youngest child have more innate knowledge from my experience than my older son, or does my ongoing experiences somehow transfer to all my children throughout their lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 BTW, every culture seems to have a flying lizard archetype and a 'malign little people' one too... which could either point to a species memory, or to real little people and dragons... Indonesian hobbits and Pterodactyls? Who knows, it is very curious though. Its not like people have some empty part of them that only tales of mischevious little people can satisfy. Unless it was early mans attempt to explain where socks go when they disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Still, how would it go from the liver to the sex cells for memory-transfer for the offspring? And does this mean that my youngest child have more innate knowledge from my experience than my older son, or does my ongoing experiences somehow transfer to all my children throughout their lives? I dont know, you guys are the smart ones, I just have imaginative thoughts lol Doc you and Grandpa really cracked me up sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Doc you and Grandpa really cracked me up sojourner My day is done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts