Christianity Is Based On Astrology

[The-Captain]

If you did not believe what you are doing would be best for anyone you would not be doing it. And yet, I am not a bit offended by your being convinced in the way you see things. Perhaps it is part of the ex thing that you have less patience for those who still believe in God than I do for those who don't?

 

I'm not angry at you for having beliefs. But we are trying to discuss and examine them right? So most of what I wonder is what you base your beliefs on. I don't accept the spiritual/carnal argument,there is really no basis for it as I have seen. If we are to talk about these things you'll have to appeal to something that is recognized by the people you are talking with, as is its been a brick wall in all our talks thus far. You certainly don't have to, but I would like to be able to discuss these things outside of religious nomenclature.

 

Perhaps those who still believe remind you of those who once used their beliefs to control or manipulate you?

 

Yes that much is true, projecting will take place whether it is warranted or not. By taking the label of "christian", you have by default grouped yourself with the majority voice of christianity. Labels are problematic to say the least, as Ive said before you may want to consider divorcing yourself from that one. After all whats in a name?

 

And as a last bit, I hope you do get to talking with AM, not a debate necessarily but a discussion. And if you guys don't mind I'd tag along, that way you wont be the only one hitting the dictionary every second.

[Grandpa Harley]

Need I go on?

 

Hell, YEAH!

[Neon Genesis]

I think it is inherent in life that since we believe what we are doing is best for us that we believe others would benefit from the same. Have I not heard many on here say that I would be better off if I no longer held onto God or the Bible? If you did not believe what you are doing would be best for anyone you would not be doing it. And yet, I am not a bit offended by your being convinced in the way you see things. Perhaps it is part of the ex thing that you have less patience for those who still believe in God than I do for those who don't? Perhaps those who still believe remind you of those who once used their beliefs to control or manipulate you?

 

John

So, can we take this as you finally admitting that you are in fact here to convert us to Christianity and all that bullshit about "getting to know us" was a lie since you've just admitted that you think Christianity is best for us? How do you know what is best for other people? There you go again, making arrogant assumptions about people, and you wonder why people accuse you of pushing your beliefs on us. Just because we do something does not mean that we think everyone should do it. Maybe some people have suggested that you no longer hold onto the bible (funny that you don't even quote where someone said this to you), but just because some people have gives you no right to assume that we all have. There have also been many instances in this thread and in others where people, myself included, have stated repeatedly that we don't give a shit about what you believe, but it's your arrogance and hypocrisy that piss people off. Why is this so difficult of a concept for you to grasp? What works for one person doesn't work for everyone else as we all have different personality traits and we all have different emotional and intellectual needs. Wasn't it Jesus who said that we shouldn't bury our talents? What if our talents lie somewhere outside the way of living the bible insists we should live by? By insisting that your way of living is best for everyone, aren't you defying Jesus' command that we should not bury our talents by telling us that we should bury our talents and try to adopt your talents? If Christianity work for you, then great for you, BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL US THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR US AS IF YOU KNOW US BETTER THAN WE KNOW OURSELVES. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT US, SO STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DO. And can you please drop the Christian persecution complex already every time someone says something you don't like that's inconvenient for you? It's very annoying, childish, and immature. And as I've said before, CHRISTIANITY IS THE MOST POPULAR RELIGION IN THE WORLD, YOU ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED. If anything, you are the one who is persecuting us by coming here and telling us that you know what is best for us better than we know ourselves and by regulating women and gays to second class citizens and insisting that this is the best way for everyone to live.

[Kuroikaze]

I think it is inherent in life that since we believe what we are doing is best for us that we believe others would benefit from the same. Have I not heard many on here say that I would be better off if I no longer held onto God or the Bible? If you did not believe what you are doing would be best for anyone you would not be doing it. And yet, I am not a bit offended by your being convinced in the way you see things. Perhaps it is part of the ex thing that you have less patience for those who still believe in God than I do for those who don't? Perhaps those who still believe remind you of those who once used their beliefs to control or manipulate you?

 

Perhaps, but I think it goes further than me simply having no patience. As I've said before, I, unsurprisingly, know lots of theists, and am even friends with some of them, the fact that they believe in god doesn't bother me in the least, objectively speaking there is more going on here.

 

God has ordained as the one who sets the ordinances that a husband is over the wife in the Lord within a godly marriage.

 

things like this seem to make it clear that you think everyone should do it your way, and seem to be at total odds with statements like this

 

It is funny that no matter how many times I admit that my understanding of the Bible is subjective and only where I am today, I still get accused of trying to put my views on others.

 

In the end what irritates is that you appear hypocritical, you claim to be a universalist, but most of your beliefs smack of the same fundamentalism I used to belong too.

 

It also makes you appear dishonest. To be completely honest I have known, both on this site and in real life, Christians who like to say all the right things, who say things like "I'm not trying to convert you" but in reality are doing just that. In my experience there are a lot of Christians who will lie to someones face if they think it will win a convert. (after all it was apostle Paul who said he would become all things to all people so that some might be saved, essentially advocating this)

 

For instance you admit that religion is man made, and then claim to be a "bible believing christian," which not only seems like a contradiction, but is language usually used by fundamentalist. I can't speak for everyone, but it makes it seem as if you lying somewhere.

 

When you speak this way, it makes it seem (even if you aren't) that you are really here to teach us the error of our ways, or at least that you can't make up your mind exactly what you believe.

 

After talking with you for weeks, I still don't know exactly what you think about almost anything, because what you think seems to shift from post to post. Maybe you don't feel that way, but it's the way it looks to me, and quite a few others on this forum.

 

I guess what it really comes down too is that I just don't trust you Kratos, so much of what you say seems to be blatant contradictions that it makes it seem that you are hiding things, about yourself and your purpose here. I don't know you personally, so I can only go by what you post. As I've said, I've dealt with Christians of this type before, so I'm bound to be suspicious when what you say doesn't add up. Of course I could be wrong, perhaps the issue is more personal, and you seem to contradict yourself because you aren't quite sure what you believe.

[Grandpa Harley]

The Persecution complex has served the Christians well for more than 1900 years, first they persecuted each other, then they got power and took it out to the rest of the world... They're like the Borg, just with the dry sense of humour and charm removed...

[Eccles]

Christianity based on Astrology eh? What else is it based on? Countless myths and legends and borrowings from other cults like Egyptology.

 

On thing I would like to know: Why do so many people take the bible so bloody seriously? It is just another book of fables and legends and a poorly written one at that. People who have a veracious appetite for reading should stop reading that bible and read some science. They will learn some truth: That THERE IS NO GOD; NO CREATION.

[The-Captain]

Kratos I have a quote for you. It sums up my thoughts on absolutes, at the moment. I wondered if you could relate, if so "is" may be a poor word choice when stating beliefs.

 

"Is", "is." "is" — the idiocy of the word haunts me. If it were abolished, human thought might begin to make sense. I don't know what anything "is"; I only know how it seems to me at this moment.- Robert Anton Wilson

[Kratos]

I agree with the quote. The Bible describes our current state as "seeing through a glass darkly". Understanding truth is a dynamic process and journey. This is why I say that religion is made up because it claims to have the truth. Those who understand this know that we must not ever stop too long along the road. This leads to stagnancy and death instead of vitality and life.

 

John

[Ouroboros]

I agree with the quote. The Bible describes our current state as "seeing through a glass darkly". Understanding truth is a dynamic process and journey. This is why I say that religion is made up because it claims to have the truth. Those who understand this know that we must not ever stop too long along the road. This leads to stagnancy and death instead of vitality and life.

Agree.

 

The journey is the purpose.

[Grandpa Harley]

But we still know what the place of women and the status of gay folk 'IS', don't we John?

[Grandpa Harley]

Christianity based on Astrology eh? What else is it based on? Countless myths and legends and borrowings from other cults like Egyptology.

 

On thing I would like to know: Why do so many people take the bible so bloody seriously? It is just another book of fables and legends and a poorly written one at that. People who have a veracious appetite for reading should stop reading that bible and read some science. They will learn some truth: That THERE IS NO GOD; NO CREATION.

 

There is a view that the original Egyptian cults astrological in origin... the prevalence of 4,7, and 12 gives the lie to that... It's also logical for people who live in places that have clear skies a lot of the time to construct stories around the stars... Handy to predict on coming weather cycles as the seasons change....

 

BTW, do you mean 'voracious' meaning greedy or insatiable, not 'veracious' , meaning 'truthful' or 'accurate' (or even the old English use of the word 'nice')? you may do mean that but the sense implies 'insatiable' rather than 'accurate'

[Eccles]

I agree with the quote. The Bible describes our current state as "seeing through a glass darkly". Understanding truth is a dynamic process and journey. This is why I say that religion is made up because it claims to have the truth. Those who understand this know that we must not ever stop too long along the road. This leads to stagnancy and death instead of vitality and life.

 

John

 

I don't agree with anything in the bible. How can it describe our current state when it was written between 2,700 and 2,000 years ago by persons unknown. I agree with you John about religion being made up. Man was not "made by god". God was made by man.

 

I just wish that fucking bible could be forgotten.

[Neon Genesis]

I agree with the quote. The Bible describes our current state as "seeing through a glass darkly". Understanding truth is a dynamic process and journey. This is why I say that religion is made up because it claims to have the truth. Those who understand this know that we must not ever stop too long along the road. This leads to stagnancy and death instead of vitality and life.

 

John

But the bible IS A PRODUCT OF RELIGION, SO THE BIBLE IS MAN MADE. You cannot both be a bible believer Christian and believe that religion is made up when the BIBLE WAS COMPILED BY RELIGION, AND IT WAS RELIGION THAT DECIDED WHAT MADE IT INTO THE BIBLE. Tell me this Kratos, if the Council of Niciaea never decided that the verses about women being submissive and homosexuality being a sin were canon and those verses never made it into the bible, would you still believe that women should be submissive and that homosexuality is a sin? Do you believe these things are wrong only because someone told you they were wrong or do you believe they are wrong because they actually are wrong? And if there is some actual proof outside of your out-dated fairytale that these are wrong and evil, then please give us this proof. And if you truly believe that understanding the bible is a journey and that stagnancy is wrong, why do you insist that your views of women and homosexuality are the only correct ways of living and that other people's ways of living are wrong? Isn't that stagnancy? This is why I said you were a hypocrite because you claim religion to be made up and that it was wrong for your beliefs to remain stagnant but then turn around and claim to be a bible believer Christian and claim that talking snakes and magic apples really exist, when the bible was made by religion, and insist that your views of women and homosexuality must be stagnant for everyone, then turn around and claim that stagnancy is wrong.

[Kuroikaze]

Kratos, you claim to want to understand us, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, at least for one post.

 

You have stated that you have trouble understanding why we seem so angry, so I ask you to try this thought exercise to get an idea of where we are coming from.

 

Imagine that you live in a culture in which almost everyone worships a god, lets say Zeus, and you are one of the few who simple cannot accept that he exists. Of course that alone wouldn't bother you, but it doesn't stop there.

 

Its isn't just that these people believe in Zeus, they have temples for him everywhere, they talk about him constantly.

They will ask you loaded questions like, "what temple do you go to?" How do you answer them? If you are honest it sometimes starts them trying to convert you, which leads to arguments, and if you lie to avoid confrontation then you feel dishonest.

 

Your job is full of Zeus worshipers as well, and many of them talk about there religion openly in the work place, and again, they will ask you questions that make you uncomfortable, but you probably can't go to the boss and ask him to make them stop, because your boss also worships Zeus and he will probably just try to convert you as well, or if he is a real jerk, he may just decide he doesn't want a heathen in his workplace and find some flimsy excuse to fire you.

 

Of course sometimes you choose to debate them, but this is just more irritating. They say things like, "of course Zeus exists, where do you think all those lightning bolts in the sky come from?" When you point out that Lightning is a natural phenomenon caused by positive and negative ion's in clouds they act like you are crazy, and usually just say things like, "you are just using science as an excuse, the truth is that you are mad and Zeus for some reason."

Of course it isn't that these people are stupid, you could understand it, if these people were mentally retarded, but in any other topic of conversation these people are just as smart and capable as you, but as soon as the topic of Zeus comes up, it as if the logic center in their brain shuts down.

 

Everywhere you go, Zeus worship is shoved in your face, the populace passes laws that support beliefs held by Zeus worshipers, and make you feel like a second class citizen.

 

You are constantly made to choose between being honest with yourself, or keeping the peace with the people around you.

 

Of course, these people aren't bad, they are just doing what they feel is right, and are totally unaware of problems they are causing for you. Would you try to educate them, so they could understand that the way they practice their religion is causing other people pain? Of course many of them don't listen, and just get angry, claiming you are persecuting them by asking them to keep their beliefs to themselves.

 

 

Now, Kratos, tell me honestly, how would you feel if this were your life? Would you be angry? Who would you be angry at? Think about it.

[Kratos]

Kuro,

 

The situation you describe is common to man. It is just a part of living in human society. I deal with people asking me where I go to church and have to tell them that I do not go anywhere. Some want to know why and I avoid telling them that I do not think that God is in the church of today and I have followed His Spirit outside the church. I deal with people who get in my face and want to know what I believe about gays and I have to avoid the conversation so I do not get anyone mad or appear not PC. I have the JWs coming to my door like all the rest. I have people ask me where my wife works and when I tell them she is a stay home Mom, they want to know what I have against women in the work place. No matter what stands you take in your life someone will challenge that belief and try to win them to your side.

 

I suppose if you do not believe in God at all, it would make the difference appear more contrasted, but I really never loose a wink of sleep based on the fact that most of those around me believe that it is okay to kill babies in the womb. I totally disagree and hate being in the minority on such a life and death issue, but I have to accept that this is part of living in a free society. Others can believe differently and sometimes I am in the minority.

 

You think that Christians are contentious to unbelievers, you should see how they treat "their own" who have wandered off the reservation and encourage others to do likewise. I pastored in this town for over 10 years and am known through this identity and greatly anger the powers that be when I not only no longer go, but encourage others to do likewise.

 

John

[The-Captain]

I suppose if you do not believe in God at all, it would make the difference appear more contrasted, but I really never loose a wink of sleep based on the fact that most of those around me believe that it is okay to kill babies in the womb. I totally disagree and hate being in the minority on such a life and death issue, but I have to accept that this is part of living in a free society.

 

Oh no....please lets not get into this, I know this was just an example of belief that alienates you, but you gotta know thats one of those phrases guaranteed to start debates. And this poor thread has meandered off topic quite enough.

 

If you really want to get into that I'll start a thread for you, or you can cruise the umpteen different discussions of it on the boards thus saving us all time. And are you really in the minority on this issue, I always got the impression (perhaps b/c of location) that a lot of people were against it.

 

 

You think that Christians are contentious to unbelievers, you should see how they treat "their own" who have wandered off the reservation and encourage others to do likewise. I pastored in this town for over 10 years and am known through this identity and greatly anger the powers that be when I not only no longer go, but encourage others to do likewise.

 

Well...we do know what thats like, we all had to "go off the reservation" at some point to get here. Some of us have just gone further, and in different directions.

 

What are we talking about now anyways?

 

John

[Grandpa Harley]

Cool... you're anti-choice too... loveliness goes on and on...

 

1) God's ordained order for the home - Women are a lower rank.

 

2) All gay folk are sinners

 

3) clear definition of life in the womb... so God's sovereignty comes into play. How do you feel about Infant ICUs? Are they against the will of god too? After all, if god had really wanted them survive, then they'd have had an easy birth... they'd not need human intervention to keep them alive, now, would they? Hmm?

[Kuroikaze]

*SIGH* I'm done, I don't even fucking care anymore.

 

Think what you want about me and mine Kratos, and I'll do the same.

[Grandpa Harley]

It's like Eel wrestling in ky jelly, isn't it?

[Neon Genesis]

Kuro,

 

The situation you describe is common to man. It is just a part of living in human society.

And you don't think you're guilty of pulling the same shit on us, too? Or do you think you're above mankind now since you already think you're above religion?

 

I deal with people asking me where I go to church and have to tell them that I do not go anywhere.

Or alternatively you could just not tell them.

 

Some want to know why and I avoid telling them that I do not think that God is in the church of today and I have followed His Spirit outside the church.

Didn't Jesus say to judge not lest thee be judged, so why are you judging these people? And what proof do you have God is in you but not in the church? There you go again with your judgmental arrogance.

 

I deal with people who get in my face and want to know what I believe about gays and I have to avoid the conversation so I do not get anyone mad or appear not PC.

Gee, maybe you wouldn't have to do this IF YOU HAD FUCKING PROOF THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS EVIL. WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF THE BIBLE SAID HETEROSEXUALITY WAS EVIL AND EVERYONE WENT AROUND TELLING YOU YOU WERE AN EVIL SINNER AND YOU HAD TO CONFORM TO THEIR WAYS WHEN THERE WAS NO FUCKING PROOF THAT IT WAS TRUE? Again, no one really fucking cares about your beliefs. What pisses us off is your insistence that we all have to obey you and conform to your ways just because you say so when you have no fucking proof.

 

I have the JWs coming to my door like all the rest.

Oh, poor baby.

 

I have people ask me where my wife works and when I tell them she is a stay home Mom, they want to know what I have against women in the work place. No matter what stands you take in your life someone will challenge that belief and try to win them to your side.

So, if you don't like it when people do it to you, why are you doing it to us? Wasn't it the bible who said to pick the shard out of your own eye before you pick the shard out of other people's eyes?

 

I suppose if you do not believe in God at all, it would make the difference appear more contrasted, but I really never loose a wink of sleep based on the fact that most of those around me believe that it is okay to kill babies in the womb. I totally disagree and hate being in the minority on such a life and death issue, but I have to accept that this is part of living in a free society. Others can believe differently and sometimes I am in the minority.

Last I checked abortion was still illegal in the U.S. and IT WAS YOU FUCKING CHRISTIANS GOING AROUND BURNING DOWN ABORTION CLINICS. Oh, and for the record, contrary to popular belief, THE BIBLE IS NOT PRO LIFE. http://www.evilbible.com/god%27s%20not%20pro-life.htm Again, you are proving my point that Christians can never agree on anything the bible says, thus proving that the bible does not contain the absolute truth about God.

 

You think that Christians are contentious to unbelievers, you should see how they treat "their own" who have wandered off the reservation and encourage others to do likewise. I pastored in this town for over 10 years and am known through this identity and greatly anger the powers that be when I not only no longer go, but encourage others to do likewise.

 

John

Again, if you know what it's like to be treated by other Christians, why are you fucking here treating us the same way? Why do you treat women and gays the same way other Christians treat you? Don't you realize your hypocrisy? And why do I get this feeling you're ignoring me?

[The-Captain]

AM,

 

I discern being led by the spirit by whether I feel life in my spirit or death in the same. When I feel death even on a portion of scripture, I know that I am not rightly dividing the word of truth as the spirit and the word always agree. Yes, it is very subjective, but the God I serve does treat us as individuals each on their own path.

 

John

 

I'd rather not bring this up again, but could you be more specific? Please try to use general terms rather than "christianeeze", I think I know what you're trying to say but it's been awhile since I had to use this jargon and those terms are rather nebulous to begin with. Maybe you could describe experientially what happens when you feel life in the spirit or death.

[Kratos]

I have no desire to start an abortion debate. I was just making a point that I also am in the minority on some issues in our society. Debating this issue would only prove what I already admit that I am in the minority on this. This is part of life and I do not bomb abortion clinics. I just accept that the laws do not always favor my beliefs. Why is this different than being in the minority in the belief of God? Part of life is being in the majority sometimes and in the minority other times.

 

I have tried to explain the difference between the mind of the spirit and the carnal mind, but you do not like this language. Discerning between soul and spirit is not something that can be explained. Life in the spirit means that the fruit of the spirit flow from the inside. You feel peace and joy and energy in your spirit in spite of where your soulical emotions are. I cannot explain it any other way. Maybe when AM has the time we will together come up with better and more neutral language.

 

John

[The-Captain]

I have no desire to start an abortion debate. I was just making a point that I also am in the minority on some issues in our society. Debating this issue would only prove what I already admit that I am in the minority on this. This is part of life and I do not bomb abortion clinics. I just accept that the laws do not always favor my beliefs. Why is this different than being in the minority in the belief of God? Part of life is being in the majority sometimes and in the minority other times.

 

I have tried to explain the difference between the mind of the spirit and the carnal mind, but you do not like this language. Discerning between soul and spirit is not something that can be explained. Life in the spirit means that the fruit of the spirit flow from the inside. You feel peace and joy and energy in your spirit in spite of where your soulical emotions are.

 

 

I cannot explain it any other way. Maybe when AM has the time we will together come up with better and more neutral language.

 

Yes lets do that....

[SWIM]

I agree with the quote. The Bible describes our current state as "seeing through a glass darkly". Understanding truth is a dynamic process and journey. This is why I say that religion is made up because it claims to have the truth. Those who understand this know that we must not ever stop too long along the road. This leads to stagnancy and death instead of vitality and life.

 

John

 

I don't agree with anything in the bible. How can it describe our current state when it was written between 2,700 and 2,000 years ago by persons unknown. I agree with you John about religion being made up. Man was not "made by god". God was made by man.

 

I just wish that fucking bible could be forgotten.

 

 

 

One of my all time favorite quotes:

 

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary for man to invent him..."

[Neon Genesis]

I have no desire to start an abortion debate. I was just making a point that I also am in the minority on some issues in our society. Debating this issue would only prove what I already admit that I am in the minority on this. This is part of life and I do not bomb abortion clinics. I just accept that the laws do not always favor my beliefs. Why is this different than being in the minority in the belief of God? Part of life is being in the majority sometimes and in the minority other times.

Expect we keep telling you, PRO LIFERS ARE NOT IN THE MINORITY, YOU ARE THE MAJORITY. JUST BECAUSE YOU MAY BE THE MINORITY IN WHATEVER AREA YOU LIVE IN, DOES NOT MEAN THAT PRO LIFERS ARE IN THE MINORITY IN THIS COUNTRY AS A WHOLE. AS A WHOLE, YOU ARE A MAJORITY.

 

I have tried to explain the difference between the mind of the spirit and the carnal mind, but you do not like this language.

I don't like it just because of the "language" you're using, I don't like it because you have yet to answer my question, if there is a right way and a wrong way to read the bible, why can't Christians agree on what the meaning of the scriptures is? ANSWER THE QUESTION. It's kind of hard to know what the difference between thinking "spiritually" and thinking "carnally" is when even you Christians can't agree on what is "spiritual" and what is "carnal."