Another Hell Thread

[GraphicsGuy]

I posted a new vid on YouTube:

 

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=0xUp0gbPVUc

 

In it I ask Xians the question, "Do I, personally, deserve to go to hell for eternity?"

 

It's a video I had been planning to make for a while, but wasn't able to really get my thoughts around it until some new comments popped up on my deconversion vids.

 

Fact is, I think it's a really good question. I wish someone had asked me it during my fundy days. Of course, I was so depressed and my self-worth was so shot that even as a Xian I believed I was totally deserving of hell. I am planning a follow-up vid and will bring that up.

 

Still, would I have said that anyone else deserved eternal hell? I don't know, but it would have made me think really damn hard.

 

So far this is quickly becoming my most-viewed vid and no one has said, "Yes, Mark, you deserve hell for eternity." Honestly, I don't think anyone will. I don't see how anyone with even a shred of compassion could say it and mean it or believe it.

 

Which comes to the topic of the follow-up vid...Why are human-beings more compassionate than the Evangelical Xian version of God?

 

 

EDIT: BTW, watch GrumpyChuck's vid response to mine...hilarious! He accidentally calls me "Mike" instead of "Mark", but I appreciated it none-the-less...I love Chuck, he's one of the best on the Tube...

[Guest bobjr]

Which comes to the topic of the follow-up vid...Why are human-beings more compassionate than the Evangelical Xian version of God?

 

As far as my opinion on whether you are hell deserving. Evagelistically, I would say let those without sin cast the first stone. As a human- being, I would say we already are in hell.

[GraphicsGuy]

By your response I am assuming you're a Xian. Can I also assume your personal answer is, "No," as well?

 

Or am I correct to expect hedging and hemming and hawing from Xians? Because that's the third no-quite-straight answer I've read.

 

Come on. Be honest. YOUR opinion. Do I DESERVE eternity in hell? Does anyone deserve eternity in hell?

 

BTW, if you consider earth hell then I feel really sorry for you. Life is pretty good when you accept it for what it is and make it what you want it to be.

[Guest bobjr]

By your response I am assuming you're a Xian. Can I also assume your personal answer is, "No," as well?

 

Or am I correct to expect hedging and hemming and hawing from Xians? Because that's the third no-quite-straight answer I've read.

 

Come on. Be honest. YOUR opinion. Do I DESERVE eternity in hell? Does anyone deserve eternity in hell?

 

BTW, if you consider earth hell then I feel really sorry for you. Life is pretty good when you accept it for what it is and make it what you want it to be.

 

 

No. You dont deserve eternity in hell.

 

Dont feel sorry for me. My life is appreciated and used in great joy. Hell is not my state of well being or mind, but the world I live in and around. Xian or not. There is hell in both worlds. I know that to be true. I might say that I live there already, but that doesnt mean that it steals my happiness.

[par4dcourse]

Quandry: Can I still tell someone to go to hell if it doesn't exist? Inquiring minds (and me) want to know.

Hey bobjr, think you're in hell? Try being an atheist in the bible belt.

[GraphicsGuy]

Och...*fingers jerk spasmodically over keys*

 

Houston, we have a problem.

[Guest bobjr]

Quandry: Can I still tell someone to go to hell if it doesn't exist? Inquiring minds (and me) want to know.

Hey bobjr, think you're in hell? Try being an atheist in the bible belt.

 

Try driving a cab in one of the top Methanphetamine traffic areas in America, when you dont use drugs. Thats just the job, in which I finally got out of.

[GraphicsGuy]

Try driving a cab in one of the top Methanphetamine traffic areas in America, when you dont use drugs. Thats just the job, in which I finally got out of.

 

Okay...you're in hell...

[Neon Genesis]

Dont feel sorry for me. My life is appreciated and used in great joy. Hell is not my state of well being or mind, but the world I live in and around. Xian or not. There is hell in both worlds. I know that to be true. I might say that I live there already, but that doesnt mean that it steals my happiness.

Proof that there's a God to be in a separated state of mind from please?

[SWIM]

Claiming you live in "hell" now, is only a negative perception. I have lived under hellish conditions in my youth, yet remained happy and positive. Humor makes a BIG difference.

 

Heaven, hell, or purgatory, they only exist in your mind. Wanna go to heaven? Walk through the door right now by laughing. Wanna go to hell? Keep staying in a depressed state of mind.

 

A life is a terrible thing to waste. Many people waste their lives worring about their lives, they worry so long, suddenly they are OLD and life is almost over.

 

When you are old, do you wanna look back on a fun filled life, making lemonade from lemons, seeing silver linings everywhere, or do you wanna look back on all the grief and heartache?

 

Your own saviour is as close as a mirror.

[Piprus]

***Sigh***

 

Hell didn't get mentioned in the OT...What the F'in bloody hell suddenly created the whole bloody damned concept of it in the NT???

 

The xian concept of HELL is completely spurious...there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to base a belief that such a thing exists.

 

There is no basis to believe that such an afterlife as "hell" is real, for anyone, for any purpose...

[necrosmith]

The idea of hell is incompatible with the concept of an all-loving god.

[Guest Acorn]

Claiming you live in "hell" now, is only a negative perception. I have lived under hellish conditions in my youth, yet remained happy and positive. Humor makes a BIG difference.

 

Heaven, hell, or purgatory, they only exist in your mind. Wanna go to heaven? Walk through the door right now by laughing. Wanna go to hell? Keep staying in a depressed state of mind.

 

A life is a terrible thing to waste. Many people waste their lives worring about their lives, they worry so long, suddenly they are OLD and life is almost over.

 

When you are old, do you wanna look back on a fun filled life, making lemonade from lemons, seeing silver linings everywhere, or do you wanna look back on all the grief and heartache?

 

Your own saviour is as close as a mirror.

 

Post #4

[Guest Acorn]

***Sigh***

 

Hell didn't get mentioned in the OT...What the F'in bloody hell suddenly created the whole bloody damned concept of it in the NT???

 

The xian concept of HELL is completely spurious...there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to base a belief that such a thing exists.

 

There is no basis to believe that such an afterlife as "hell" is real, for anyone, for any purpose...

 

?

 

Deut 32:22

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

(KJV)

 

Job 11:8

8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

(KJV)

 

Ps 9:17

17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

(KJV)

 

Prov 7:27

27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

(KJV)

 

Prov 15:11

11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

(KJV)

 

Prov 27:20

20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

(KJV)

 

Isa 14:15

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

(KJV)

 

7585 she'owl (sheh-ole');

 

or sheol (sheh-ole'); from 7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:

 

KJV-- grave, hell, pit.

 

Rev 1:18

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

(KJV)

 

 

86 haides (hah'-dace);

 

from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:

 

KJV-- grave, hell.

[par4dcourse]

Larry 1:1 Thoust bible is bullshit, thus sayeth me. (and brother jeff)

[R. S. Martin]

Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using?

 

I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions:

 

PROVERBS 27:20

KJV

 

²⁰ Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

 

New Revised Standard Version

^{20} Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied,and human eyes are never satisfied.

New American Bible

^{20} The nether world and the abyss are never satisfied; so too the eyes of men.

 

New International Version

20 Death and Destruction are never satisfied,

and neither are the eyes of man.

 

1890 Darby Bible

 

²⁰ Sheol and destruction are insatiable; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

DEUTERONOMY 32:22

KJV

 

²² For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

 

New Revised Standard Version

^{22} For a fire is kindled by my anger,and burns to the depths of Sheol;it devours the earth and its increase,and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

 

New American Bible

 

^{22} “For by my wrath a fire is enkindled that shall rage to the depths of the nether world,Consuming the earth with its yield, and licking with flames the roots of the mountains.

 

New International Version

 

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,

one that burns to the realm of death below.

It will devour the earth and its harvests

and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

 

1890 Darby Bible

²² For a fire is kindled in mine anger, And it shall burn into the lowest Sheol, And shall consume the earth and its produce, And set fire to the foundations of the mountains.

[Guest Acorn]

Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using?

 

I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions:

 

I was just connecting the poster that said hell, hades, sheol, destruction, angry place of God, whatever wasnt in the Ot. It is talked about.

[R. S. Martin]

Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using?

 

I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions:

 

I was just connecting the poster that said hell, hades, sheol, destruction, angry place of God, whatever wasnt in the Ot. It is talked about.

 

 

I can see what you're doing, Acorn. I also think I know Piprus fairly well. When he says something there is usually a very good reason for saying it; his words are seldom empty. This time I cannot see his reason. Thus, I am asking for it. He seems to be wrong and his opponent seems to be right. Perhaps he means something other than we think he means.

 

I posted those verses in various versions to show that various words are used in various versions of the Bible. I am hoping this will help sort things.

[Guest Acorn]

I can see what you're doing, Acorn. I also think I know Piprus fairly well. When he says something there is usually a very good reason for saying it; his words are seldom empty. This time I cannot see his reason. Thus, I am asking for it. He seems to be wrong and his opponent seems to be right. Perhaps he means something other than we think he means.

 

I posted those verses in various versions to show that various words are used in various versions of the Bible. I am hoping this will help sort things.

 

Same thoughts here. I was a little shocked by the post. So. Im wondering if there was an underline to that as well.

[R. S. Martin]

***Sigh***

 

Hell didn't get mentioned in the OT...What the F'in bloody hell suddenly created the whole bloody damned concept of it in the NT???

 

The xian concept of HELL is completely spurious...there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to base a belief that such a thing exists.

 

There is no basis to believe that such an afterlife as "hell" is real, for anyone, for any purpose...

 

I'm reading your post again. You're absolutely right. The thing the religious people created after the bible was written does not exist. Even the thing the NT describes is not the HELL the fundies of today mean. I have not studied up on it but one of my professors told the class that that concept peaked only in the Middle Ages. That is extremely late when we're talking NT. If hell is real, then Adam and Eve should have been told about it. So should all the other religions. And they weren't and they haven't.

 

The worst thing that happened to Adam and Eve was having to work for their food and having to die after a very long and productive life. At least, Adam did. Eve was nothing but a baby machine to populate the earth. It gets really fuzzy where Cain's wives came from--whether they were his sisters or whether there were other people and Adam and Eve weren't really the first and only humans. But all of this is beside the point of this thread. None of these people were told that there was a hell awaiting them if they disobeyed god. They were told that they would get smart and that they would die. Those two things happened.

 

The one thing (if guilt for disobedience and shame for nakedness can be called human intelligence) happened right away and the other thing (death) took the best part of a millennia to happen. Now if you pull in the verse from Psalms that says "a thousand years with the Lord is as one day" they did die "the same day" as they ate of the forbidden fruit, as god said they would. However, once you start those kinds of word games with the Bible you can make it say exactly what you want it to say.

 

So here's the option: Either god lied about what would happen when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit or we're expected to juggled words around in the Bible to make it make sense. Either way, we get rid of hell because 1. the prophets as god's mouth pieces and Jesus being god in the flesh are lying OR 2. infinite punishment for finite errors by a loving god makes NO SENSE so we juggle words till we're rid of it.

 

BIOLOGICAL DEATH IS THE END.

[Guest Acorn]

***Sigh***

 

Hell didn't get mentioned in the OT...What the F'in bloody hell suddenly created the whole bloody damned concept of it in the NT???

 

The xian concept of HELL is completely spurious...there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to base a belief that such a thing exists.

 

There is no basis to believe that such an afterlife as "hell" is real, for anyone, for any purpose...

 

I'm reading your post again. You're absolutely right. The thing the religious people created after the bible was written does not exist. Even the thing the NT describes is not the HELL the fundies of today mean. I have not studied up on it but one of my professors told the class that that concept peaked only in the Middle Ages. That is extremely late when we're talking NT. If hell is real, then Adam and Eve should have been told about it. So should all the other religions. And they weren't and they haven't.

 

The worst thing that happened to Adam and Eve was having to work for their food and having to die after a very long and productive life. At least, Adam did. Eve was nothing but a baby machine to populate the earth. It gets really fuzzy where Cain's wives came from--whether they were his sisters or whether there were other people and Adam and Eve weren't really the first and only humans. But all of this is beside the point of this thread. None of these people were told that there was a hell awaiting them if they disobeyed god. They were told that they would get smart and that they would die. Those two things happened.

 

The one thing (if guilt for disobedience and shame for nakedness can be called human intelligence) happened right away and the other thing (death) took the best part of a millennia to happen. Now if you pull in the verse from Psalms that says "a thousand years with the Lord is as one day" they did die "the same day" as they ate of the forbidden fruit, as god said they would. However, once you start those kinds of word games with the Bible you can make it say exactly what you want it to say.

 

So here's the option: Either god lied about what would happen when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit or we're expected to juggled words around in the Bible to make it make sense. Either way, we get rid of hell because 1. the prophets as god's mouth pieces and Jesus being god in the flesh are lying OR 2. infinite punishment for finite errors by a loving god makes NO SENSE so we juggle words till we're rid of it.

 

BIOLOGICAL DEATH IS THE END.

 

Ok. Gods love and hell doesnt have anything to do with anything. Nothing personal, Ive heard that a billion times. I just never understood that logic, and it can be debated and discussed for years if kept going. But, I love my kid more than life, but if she chooses to do bad, its out of my control if shes not in my control. God did say to Cain if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. So, I have a messed up theory that raises eyebrows on both sides of the fence. Maybe God loves Satan.

[R. S. Martin]

***Sigh***

 

Hell didn't get mentioned in the OT...What the F'in bloody hell suddenly created the whole bloody damned concept of it in the NT???

 

The xian concept of HELL is completely spurious...there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to base a belief that such a thing exists.

 

There is no basis to believe that such an afterlife as "hell" is real, for anyone, for any purpose...

 

I'm reading your post again. You're absolutely right. The thing the religious people created after the bible was written does not exist. Even the thing the NT describes is not the HELL the fundies of today mean. I have not studied up on it but one of my professors told the class that that concept peaked only in the Middle Ages. That is extremely late when we're talking NT. If hell is real, then Adam and Eve should have been told about it. So should all the other religions. And they weren't and they haven't.

 

The worst thing that happened to Adam and Eve was having to work for their food and having to die after a very long and productive life. At least, Adam did. Eve was nothing but a baby machine to populate the earth. It gets really fuzzy where Cain's wives came from--whether they were his sisters or whether there were other people and Adam and Eve weren't really the first and only humans. But all of this is beside the point of this thread. None of these people were told that there was a hell awaiting them if they disobeyed god. They were told that they would get smart and that they would die. Those two things happened.

 

The one thing (if guilt for disobedience and shame for nakedness can be called human intelligence) happened right away and the other thing (death) took the best part of a millennia to happen. Now if you pull in the verse from Psalms that says "a thousand years with the Lord is as one day" they did die "the same day" as they ate of the forbidden fruit, as god said they would. However, once you start those kinds of word games with the Bible you can make it say exactly what you want it to say.

 

So here's the option: Either god lied about what would happen when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit or we're expected to juggled words around in the Bible to make it make sense. Either way, we get rid of hell because 1. the prophets as god's mouth pieces and Jesus being god in the flesh are lying OR 2. infinite punishment for finite errors by a loving god makes NO SENSE so we juggle words till we're rid of it.

 

BIOLOGICAL DEATH IS THE END.

 

Ok. Gods love and hell doesnt have anything to do with anything. Nothing personal, Ive heard that a billion times. I just never understood that logic, and it can be debated and discussed for years if kept going. But, I love my kid more than life, but if she chooses to do bad, its out of my control if shes not in my control. God did say to Cain if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. So, I have a messed up theory that raises eyebrows on both sides of the fence. Maybe God loves Satan.

 

 

 

 

You're not the first person to ask about that, i.e. whether God loves Satan. When you're thinking about an all-loving God and how to live out forgiveness regardless of evil treatment, etc., and compare how much of that I as a human am capable of doing on my own, and think that an almighty God must be capable of so much more, it just seems alien to God's nature not to love Satan.

 

As for the analogy of you and your daughter. You might have missed what I said about "infinite punishment for finite errors by a loving god." I underlined the important words. If you, as a finite parent, punished your child for life for stealing something from your dresser when the child was two years old, you would be more merciful than God. As a finite parent, your punishment would end either when you or your child died, whichever happened first. Given that many Christians teach that even young children must repent and be saved by faith, it seems that the "sins" of two-year-olds are enough to get a person condemned to hell for eternity.

 

However, if you punished your child for life for stealing something from your dresser when she was two, you would be seen as a terrible tyrant and extraordinarily abusive. God is supposed to be loving. It makes sense that adults take responsibility for the direct consequences of their actions because someone must take the consequences. However, to punish a person for life for making a wrong decision just because some ancient book says we shouldn't do it, and nobody got hurt or disadvantaged, seems rather far-fetched. You mention Cain. He was jealous of his brother. That was rather stupid. But it was even more stupid of God not to help him deal with his jealousy.

 

By kicking Cain out of the home, God was not going to help him learn to deal with his problems. He only taught him that being honest about your feelings got you into big trouble. It is really no wonder that posterity had problems for many generations. That's just the way things work. A pattern of abuse develops in one generation and it will continue for ten generations unless someone breaks the cycle, according to the researcher.

 

To return to the question posited by graphicsguy in the OP, "In it I ask Xians the question, "Do I, personally, deserve to go to hell for eternity?" I grew up hearing that all of us would deserve to spend eternity in hell. So yes, you would deserve to spend eternity in hell and so would I. At least, so they said. It never made sense to me. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. According to the teachings I was raised with, there is a very real possibility that most of us will spend all of eternity in hell. After all, Jesus said only few would be saved. The only inconsistency in their teaching was the funeral services. Somehow, the preachers were always fairly sure that the deseased was at peace no matter how poorly the person had kept the rules of the church.

 

Even if the person was not a member in good standing the preachers refused to speak harshly. From a humanist perspective I am very grateful that they were decent in this respect. But from the perspective of a young woman trying to understand the religion, it did not make sense. They would say, "I'm not here to judge." Yet the day before the person's death they might judge the person and say all kinds of stuff about the evils of disobedience. How come, when the person actually is dead--the time when it really counts, suddenly the preacher stands dumb?

 

It was explained to me that it would be cruel to speak otherwise to the family of the departed and today I understand that. However, it is unbiblical. If they are going to live and die by the OT, they had better do funerals by the OT, too. Or perhaps it's time to do away with religion. But no, when I do that they pull out all the rules. One of the last things my mother said to me, before her final illness, was, "HELL IS REAL."

 

I just shrugged it off and didn't comment. A long time later I realized that she had said it especially for my benefit. Not exactly a pleasant final memory to have or one's mother. I guess she would say I brought it on myself. This is not the case. If I want peace with myself I don't lie about my beliefs. If I don't lie about my beliefs, I don't profess to be saved through the shed blood of Christ. If I don't profess that, then my family believes I will go to hell. They disbelieve that this is not a choice. There is little I can do about their ideas. Jesus was right when he said we'd have to be willing to forsake family for truth. But his followers, or whoever wrote the Jesus story, were wrong about what that truth is.

 

But yes, in light of what Jesus supposedly did for us on the cross, all of us exChristians most definitely deserve to spend eternity in hell for rejecting his gift of salvation. The Bible says it. The Christians believe it. At least, some of them do. And they preach it too if memory serves.

[walkthehawk]

We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category.

 

Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are.

 

Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone!

[The-Captain]

We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category.

 

Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are.

 

Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone!

 

I think it is better to examine the implications of the hell theology on a personal level, think first about what your understanding of hell is, and then consider whether you can consider anyone truly deserving of this. What little optimism I have holds out you would at least have a hard time saying to an individual that they deserve it for not following your way.

 

The point is also to think about how it even makes sense, do you feel that you are deserving of hell, and if so why? You read it in a book? A pastor said so to you (and ultimately he read it in the same book). Thats a good enough reason for you to hold that all mankind is so contemptibly wretched that only eternal punishment is just, good, or benevolent?

[GraphicsGuy]

Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate.

 

Uh no, it doesn't become a personal attack. I phrased the question in that manner because Xianity makes the cold, impersonal, blanket statements all the time.

 

"Xians go to heaven, unbelievers go to hell."

 

Really easy to say when you're a Xian. So, I purposely brought it down to the personal level asking if I deserve to go to hell for eternity.

 

Technically I'm not trying to argue philosophy or doctrine with the question. I am actually trying to gauge compassion and tolerance.

 

BTW, are you GlobalCharming?