Guest Acorn Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 But yes, in light of what Jesus supposedly did for us on the cross, all of us exChristians most definitely deserve to spend eternity in hell for rejecting his gift of salvation. The Bible says it. The Christians believe it. At least, some of them do. And they preach it too if memory serves. If you were an Ex, then at one time you had to receive that gift. Its nonrefundable Once a child always a child. If God is God, the God that I serve, He doesnt turn His back. But, He will not disrespect your wishes either to believe what you believe. Always working in those unimaginable, branches in search for His own. He knows those that are His. And I think the thoughts of man/woman, are secret to God access only. Only God really knows the eternal destination for His own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category. Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are. Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone! When I think of God, hell, forgiveness, repentance etc. I always think of the parable where the two men went to the temple and one was begging God to forgive him, and the other was calm, collective and saying forgive this other man. I catchy part to me is that Christ said the first man was more justified than the second, not the only one forgiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category. Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are. Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone! When I think of God, hell, forgiveness, repentance etc. I always think of the parable where the two men went to the temple and one was begging God to forgive him, and the other was calm, collective and saying forgive this other man. I catchy part to me is that Christ said the first man was more justified than the second, not the only one forgiven And what exactly are you begging forgiveness for? Being born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using? I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions: I was just connecting the poster that said hell, hades, sheol, destruction, angry place of God, whatever wasnt in the Ot. It is talked about. Actually, it's not... only in the late antiquity readings of the OT or Greek translations of the same... the Aramaic mind had no concept of Hell until well after AD70... Hades is Greek, not Hebrew... So, you're talking bollocks, as always... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 If you were an Ex, then at one time you had to receive that gift. Its nonrefundable Once a child always a child. If God is God, the God that I serve, He doesnt turn His back. But, He will not disrespect your wishes either to believe what you believe. Always working in those unimaginable, branches in search for His own. He knows those that are His. And I think the thoughts of man/woman, are secret to God access only. Only God really knows the eternal destination for His own. And how the heck can you be so certain about this? It's based on your imagination. It's what you want God to be, and not what you surely know him to be. Seriously. Analyze yourself how and why you believe these things, and what it is that makes you think this. The Bible tell you not to lie, but the worst lie, is to deceive yourself. So the first one you have to be honest to, is yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 If you were an Ex, then at one time you had to receive that gift. Its nonrefundable Once a child always a child. If God is God, the God that I serve, He doesnt turn His back. But, He will not disrespect your wishes either to believe what you believe. Always working in those unimaginable, branches in search for His own.Wait, if you believe that we are once saved, always saved because we used to be Christians, then why are you trying to convert us or telling us that God was going to send his wrath upon us in your signs thread? You're completely contradicting yourself and you make no sense. He knows those that are His. And I think the thoughts of man/woman, are secret to God access only. Only God really knows the eternal destination for His own.Please read this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=22103 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Ok. Gods love and hell doesnt have anything to do with anything. Nothing personal, Ive heard that a billion times. I just never understood that logic, and it can be debated and discussed for years if kept going. But, I love my kid more than life, but if she chooses to do bad, its out of my control if shes not in my control. God did say to Cain if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. So, I have a messed up theory that raises eyebrows on both sides of the fence. Maybe God loves Satan. There are two conflicting views in your thinking. 1) God created Hell 2) Hell is just a default destination. Everyone will go there, unless they convert. The problem is that the first one, if God created Hell, it was an intentional and willful act by God to do so, and Hell is no default place at all. He made it the destination on purpose. That is not unintentional. God made it with a purpose. So what is the purpose? Everything has a purpose, isn't that what most Creationists say about the Universe and humans and such? So what is Hell's purpose if God created it? The second view that Hell is just a default destination and everyone goes there, unless God somehow rescues them from it, it means that this place is out of God's control. He can only save you through some magical contract (through faith) before your death, or you're lost for eternity. That shows a God that is not all powerful, or all willing to save all human beings, but rather a God that is slave under some other infinite and eternal force that is the real source of the creation of Hell. You see, to me, it sounds like either God created Hell, and he wants people to go there, and that is not a good God, or God didn't create Hell, and he's doing anything he can to save as many humans he can, but he's not powerful enough to undo Hell and make a better salvation plan for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using? I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions: I was just connecting the poster that said hell, hades, sheol, destruction, angry place of God, whatever wasnt in the Ot. It is talked about. Actually, it's not... only in the late antiquity readings of the OT or Greek translations of the same... the Aramaic mind had no concept of Hell until well after AD70... Hades is Greek, not Hebrew... So, you're talking bollocks, as always... So, are you saying that the word is false origin, in which makes the Bible fiction, you should go worldwide. If you were an Ex, then at one time you had to receive that gift. Its nonrefundable Once a child always a child. If God is God, the God that I serve, He doesnt turn His back. But, He will not disrespect your wishes either to believe what you believe. Always working in those unimaginable, branches in search for His own. He knows those that are His. And I think the thoughts of man/woman, are secret to God access only. Only God really knows the eternal destination for His own. And how the heck can you be so certain about this? It's based on your imagination. It's what you want God to be, and not what you surely know him to be. Seriously. Analyze yourself how and why you believe these things, and what it is that makes you think this. The Bible tell you not to lie, but the worst lie, is to deceive yourself. So the first one you have to be honest to, is yourself. Well. When it comes down to it, It says anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and also in the Ot, Slolmon prayed that anyone that turned toward the place he built to God, in turn he asked God to forgive. Unliteralisticly speaking, If someone asks for forgivenesss, to forgive them. God said ok to that If you were an Ex, then at one time you had to receive that gift. Its nonrefundable Once a child always a child. If God is God, the God that I serve, He doesnt turn His back. But, He will not disrespect your wishes either to believe what you believe. Always working in those unimaginable, branches in search for His own.Wait, if you believe that we are once saved, always saved because we used to be Christians, then why are you trying to convert us or telling us that God was going to send his wrath upon us in your signs thread? You're completely contradicting yourself and you make no sense. He knows those that are His. And I think the thoughts of man/woman, are secret to God access only. Only God really knows the eternal destination for His own. Please read this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=22103 And? Whats your point. Proof? Right? Ok. Gods love and hell doesnt have anything to do with anything. Nothing personal, Ive heard that a billion times. I just never understood that logic, and it can be debated and discussed for years if kept going. But, I love my kid more than life, but if she chooses to do bad, its out of my control if shes not in my control. God did say to Cain if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. So, I have a messed up theory that raises eyebrows on both sides of the fence. Maybe God loves Satan. There are two conflicting views in your thinking. 1) God created Hell 2) Hell is just a default destination. Everyone will go there, unless they convert. The problem is that the first one, if God created Hell, it was an intentional and willful act by God to do so, and Hell is no default place at all. He made it the destination on purpose. That is not unintentional. God made it with a purpose. So what is the purpose? Everything has a purpose, isn't that what most Creationists say about the Universe and humans and such? So what is Hell's purpose if God created it? The second view that Hell is just a default destination and everyone goes there, unless God somehow rescues them from it, it means that this place is out of God's control. He can only save you through some magical contract (through faith) before your death, or you're lost for eternity. That shows a God that is not all powerful, or all willing to save all human beings, but rather a God that is slave under some other infinite and eternal force that is the real source of the creation of Hell. You see, to me, it sounds like either God created Hell, and he wants people to go there, and that is not a good God, or God didn't create Hell, and he's doing anything he can to save as many humans he can, but he's not powerful enough to undo Hell and make a better salvation plan for us. Ok. Well. Maybe God created Satan, as to Christ spiritually. Yet, Satan did wrong, in lue of Satan creating hell. And God, seeing his people act in the nature of Satan, by choice/freewill; intervined with Christ as the bar of faith for those that want to do right and be unto God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category. Who's to blame? God created us that way. If anyone deserves anything, it's God who deserves to get off his high horses and get rid of that pride that stops him from commune with his own creation. Sounds like he suffers from postpartum depression, or something... Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are. And again I can submit that's a stupid religion. The only reason why that is a common theme in several religions, is just the same thing cult leaders us: fear. It keeps the members under control. It makes people afraid of leaving. We have several members on this site that went through a tough period, because they were scared of Hell. So in essence, they were believers because of Hell, not because of anything else. WalkTheHawk, consider this. Why is it so important to You, personally, why you have to be saved from Hell? Is that a self-preservation response or is it "love" (as many Christians wants it to be)? ---edit--- And Acorn, honestly, you live in a fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 And? Whats your point. Proof? Right?No, my point is 1)You're contradictory and hypocritical. In one thread, you say we don't deserve hell and that God is magically going to save us all because we are once saved, always saved, but then you turn around and try to use God's wrath to get us to conform to your beliefs in another thread and insist that you're the only right one and everyone else is wrong. And 2), you cannot say in one post that God's ways are mysterious, then turn around and explain God's ways to us, hence you are again, hypocritical and contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using? I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions: I was just connecting the poster that said hell, hades, sheol, destruction, angry place of God, whatever wasnt in the Ot. It is talked about. Actually, it's not... only in the late antiquity readings of the OT or Greek translations of the same... the Aramaic mind had no concept of Hell until well after AD70... Hades is Greek, not Hebrew... So, you're talking bollocks, as always... So, are you saying that the word is false origin, in which makes the Bible fiction, you should go worldwide. No, I'm saying that your reading of it is wrong, and you're aguing from a point of ignorance... it's old news... and you're still talking bollocks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category. Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are. Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone! You speak for yourself you raping, child traducing dick head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Ok. Well. Maybe God created Satan, as to Christ spiritually. Yet, Satan did wrong, in lue of Satan creating hell. And God, seeing his people act in the nature of Satan, by choice/freewill; intervined with Christ as the bar of faith for those that want to do right and be unto God. What?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I think he meant 'lieu' but even then it makes something between none and 'stuff all' sense... I think he's been tweaking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I think he meant 'lieu' but even then it makes something between none and 'stuff all' sense... I think he's been tweaking... You have to have the auto-spell-correction-goggles on, or maybe he meant lues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 This thread has moved rather quickly so it will take me some time to catch up. I wanted to highlight one thing that caught my eye. If you were an Ex, then at one time you had to receive that gift. Its nonrefundable FrogsToadBigGrin.gif Once a child always a child. If God is God, the God that I serve, He doesnt turn His back. But, He will not disrespect your wishes either to believe what you believe. Always working in those unimaginable, branches in search for His own. He knows those that are His. And I think the thoughts of man/woman, are secret to God access only. Only God really knows the eternal destination for His own. And how the heck can you be so certain about this? It's based on your imagination. It's what you want God to be, and not what you surely know him to be. Seriously. Analyze yourself how and why you believe these things, and what it is that makes you think this. The Bible tell you not to lie, but the worst lie, is to deceive yourself. So the first one you have to be honest to, is yourself. Well. When it comes down to it, It says anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, and also in the Ot, Slolmon prayed that anyone that turned toward the place he built to God, in turn he asked God to forgive. Unliteralisticly speaking, If someone asks for forgivenesss, to forgive them. God said ok to that Thats a very poor response Acorn, I'm not even sure what you are trying to say. If you are basing your entire view on the matter on one verse thats rather shaky. If I have to I'll dig up the countless verses that contradict that idea of salvation. But we are all familiar with the Bible right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Slolmon? as in the Schlong of Slolmon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Do they just make this stuff up as they go? I think so. The worst part about that particular poster was the quibbling over semantics. That really fucking irritated me...saying I was asking two questions, blah, blah, blah, blah. Talk about reading too much into it and putting words in my mouth. Does this person know how to do anything but waffle? Even after saying "alright here goes" s/he STILL does not answer the question. I know, that's my friend Morgan that I was posting about. She's gone all spiritual trippy on me all of sudden. She was okay a month ago... She's not the only one either. Another fellow keeps doing the exact same thing on grumpychuck's vid comments. He's even gotten to the point of saying that he's going to make a vid response so he can "explain" things clearer. WTF????? I GET it! I just want a straight fucking answer though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Thallium poisoning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Sorry I haven't been back to this thread to respond Piprus, can you elaborate on what you mean? Which version of the Bible are you using? I'll do a few of Acorn's verses in a variety of versions: I was just connecting the poster that said hell, hades, sheol, destruction, angry place of God, whatever wasnt in the Ot. It is talked about. As you've probably concluded by now, "Hell" in the fundamentalist xian sense is not discussed in the OT. OT references to Hell are actually talking about Sheol, the hebrew gathering place for the dead. It was believed to be underground, but it was not a place of punishment. It was simply where you went after death. Rich or poor, good or wicked, young or old. It was, somewhat like the Greek Hades, a colorless, emotionless place of silence. It was ruled by the same Yahweh that ruled the world of the living. (Jewish Dictionary). The hebrews did not believe in "Hell" as punishment for the wicked. All OT versus mentioning Hell actually are talking about Sheol. (Thayer, 1855) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Global Charming: "To disobey an infinite authority is to commit a crime of infinite magnitude, and is therefore deserving of infinite punishment." Like Eric Cartmen of southpark, they want you to "respect his ah-thor-it-tie!" "infinite punishment"... for them to actually even let this cross thier mind, as even remotely "possible" is clinical evidence of brain damage imho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkthehawk Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category. Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are. Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone! I think it is better to examine the implications of the hell theology on a personal level, think first about what your understanding of hell is, and then consider whether you can consider anyone truly deserving of this. What little optimism I have holds out you would at least have a hard time saying to an individual that they deserve it for not following your way. The point is also to think about how it even makes sense, do you feel that you are deserving of hell, and if so why? You read it in a book? A pastor said so to you (and ultimately he read it in the same book). Thats a good enough reason for you to hold that all mankind is so contemptibly wretched that only eternal punishment is just, good, or benevolent? Well I'm not going to BS you and say that it is easy for me to tell someone in person that they are in danger of going to Hell, but sometimes the truth isn't easy. However, it is necessary. It's hard because from the limited knowledge I know about Hell, it is a terrible place. However, if Hell exists, and I believe that someone is in danger of going there, is it logical to say that I'm all of a sudden void of compassion for telling them. I would think quite the opposite. Standing idle while someone is running toward a cliff like a lemming and not shouting to them to stop and think is what I would consider lacking in compassion. What's more, I'm also showing them the way out of Hell. As to your second point: do you read books, do you listen to people's teachings, or has all the knowledge that you have accumulated from the time of your birth until now just fallen from the sky like a baby from a stork, or has it just been produced in the context of a vacuum? No, I would submit that you have studied and listened, and then have considered what you have read and heard, and then come to a conclusion. Contrary to popular belief, there are many Christians who have done the same thing. You and I have just come to different conclusions. Just to let everyone know, I'll try to get in here as much as I can, but I'm getting married soon, so that is taking up some time in my life. I look forward to the conversations we can have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkthehawk Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. Uh no, it doesn't become a personal attack. I phrased the question in that manner because Xianity makes the cold, impersonal, blanket statements all the time. "Xians go to heaven, unbelievers go to hell." Really easy to say when you're a Xian. So, I purposely brought it down to the personal level asking if I deserve to go to hell for eternity. Technically I'm not trying to argue philosophy or doctrine with the question. I am actually trying to gauge compassion and tolerance. BTW, are you GlobalCharming? Well in the words of the cowboy, "Have it your way, Dude." Consider the fact that sometimes "blanket" statements need to be said so that everything is covered... HA... I make funny... get it, blanket, covered!!! See my post to The-Doctor in response to your claim that this is somehow a surefire way of gaging that someone has little to no compassion. And though I believe I have plenty of charm, it is not on a global scale, so no, I am not GlobalCharming. I'm completely new here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkthehawk Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 We are all deserving of Hell, and so therefore, you are deserving since you fit in the "all" category. Phrasing the question in such a way as to make it seem like a personal attack on you if someone says yes is unfortunate. The question instead should be instead are all of us deserving of Hell, and I will again submit that yes, we are. Not bad for a first post huh? Hello everyone! When I think of God, hell, forgiveness, repentance etc. I always think of the parable where the two men went to the temple and one was begging God to forgive him, and the other was calm, collective and saying forgive this other man. I catchy part to me is that Christ said the first man was more justified than the second, not the only one forgiven Please provide the passage of Scripture you are referring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Well I'm not going to BS you and say that it is easy for me to tell someone in person that they are in danger of going to Hell, but sometimes the truth isn't easy.As I asked Acorn, how do you know it's the truth? Where's your proof that anything in the bible is real or that your interpretation of the scriptures is the only right one? However, it is necessary.That's not what Jesus said. He said to judge not lest thee be judged. Or are you saying Jesus' teachings were unnecessary? The bible also says that only those who have never committed a sin can cast the first stone, and to pick the shard out of your own eye before you pick the shard out of other people's eyes. So, have you never committed a sin in your life? Unless you haven't, then why don't you go pick the shards out of your own eye before you pick the shards out of ours since Jesus says you have no right to cast stones at us unless you have never sinned? Plus, Jesus said that he cannot forgive those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, so it's not like any of us could be saved now even if we wanted to be, according to your bible. And Jesus also teaches that if no one in a town you go to wishes to convert, that you are to kick the dust off your sandals and move on to the next one. Clearly none of us here have any intentions of reconverting, so why are you defying Jesus' teachings and not kicking the dust off your sandals and moving on? See how it easy it is? You say your interpretations of the scriptures are correct, but I can just as easily take your same bible and twist the scriptures around to suit my own point of view, and unless you have proof that your view is the only correct one, you can't say my interpretation of the scripture is any less correct than yours, hence you have no proof that your beliefs are the only right ones. It's hard because from the limited knowledge I know about Hell, it is a terrible place.But according to your religion, your God created this hell. If hell is such a terrible place, then why do you worship a God that creates such a terrible place? Are you approving torture? However, if Hell exists, and I believe that someone is in danger of going there, is it logical to say that I'm all of a sudden void of compassion for telling them.What is not compassionate is that you have a God who SENDS people to hell. If your God is so all-loving and all-powerful, why does he need you to stop people from going to hell? Why can't he just do it himself and destroy hell all together if God really hates hell so much? Is God too weak to destroy hell and save us all or does God not care enough? Standing idle while someone is running toward a cliff like a lemming and not shouting to them to stop and think is what I would consider lacking in compassion. What's more, I'm also showing them the way out of Hell.Why are you saving someone from running towards a cliff that your God created in the first place? Since according to your religion, your God wants to send us all to hell because he didn't get his way, why are you defying God's will and trying to stop us from running off a cliff that your God wills for us to run off of? You seem to be under the impression that it's our fault for running off a cliff when it's your God's fault for creating the cliff to begin with. As to your second point: do you read books, do you listen to people's teachings, or has all the knowledge that you have accumulated from the time of your birth until now just fallen from the sky like a baby from a stork, or has it just been produced in the context of a vacuum? No, I would submit that you have studied and listened, and then have considered what you have read and heard, and then come to a conclusion.The difference between our studying of other people's books and teachings is that we actually study their teachings and search for proof that their teachings are correct and if there is no proof that their teachings are true, we don't believe them or at the very least don't go around demanding others to conform to them, whereas Christians just accept everything either their preacher or their emotions tells them at face value, and expect and demand other people to do the same. And trust me on this, I've been a Christian once myself, so I know how Christians come to believe in the bible. Contrary to popular belief, there are many Christians who have done the same thing. You and I have just come to different conclusions.No, the problem is that you have no proof that Christianity is the only correct teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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