Another Hell Thread

[kcinbama]

Going down, party time

My friends are gonna be there too

I'm on the highway to hell

Highway to hell

I'm on the highway to hell

Highway to hell

 

ASSUMING hell exists:

Will the flesh of our risen bodies burn and be continually regenerated to experience the pain eternally? I, for one, have a low tolerance for pain, so, this would make sense to me. What if our earthly bodies are cremated, what types of bodies will we receive to experience the pain of Hell? Will we be given new types of bodies for the sole purpose of experiencing this eternal pain? Just wondering out loud.

[GraphicsGuy]

We'll see won't we? Fundy season is in full swing here

 

Hahaha...reminded me of the old Bugs Bunny cartoon...

[GraphicsGuy]

It would be funnier if Elmer Fudd's sign said, "I give up REASON".

 

Damn! I wish I'd thought of that! You're SHARP today!

[walkthehawk]

Well I'm not going to BS you and say that it is easy for me to tell someone in person that they are in danger of going to Hell, but sometimes the truth isn't easy.

As I asked Acorn, how do you know it's the truth? Where's your proof that anything in the bible is real or that your interpretation of the scriptures is the only right one?

 

However, it is necessary.

That's not what Jesus said. He said to judge not lest thee be judged. Or are you saying Jesus' teachings were unnecessary? The bible also says that only those who have never committed a sin can cast the first stone, and to pick the shard out of your own eye before you pick the shard out of other people's eyes. So, have you never committed a sin in your life? Unless you haven't, then why don't you go pick the shards out of your own eye before you pick the shards out of ours since Jesus says you have no right to cast stones at us unless you have never sinned? Plus, Jesus said that he cannot forgive those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, so it's not like any of us could be saved now even if we wanted to be, according to your bible.

 

And Jesus also teaches that if no one in a town you go to wishes to convert, that you are to kick the dust off your sandals and move on to the next one. Clearly none of us here have any intentions of reconverting, so why are you defying Jesus' teachings and not kicking the dust off your sandals and moving on? See how it easy it is? You say your interpretations of the scriptures are correct, but I can just as easily take your same bible and twist the scriptures around to suit my own point of view, and unless you have proof that your view is the only correct one, you can't say my interpretation of the scripture is any less correct than yours, hence you have no proof that your beliefs are the only right ones.

 

It's hard because from the limited knowledge I know about Hell, it is a terrible place.

But according to your religion, your God created this hell. If hell is such a terrible place, then why do you worship a God that creates such a terrible place? Are you approving torture?

 

However, if Hell exists, and I believe that someone is in danger of going there, is it logical to say that I'm all of a sudden void of compassion for telling them.

What is not compassionate is that you have a God who SENDS people to hell. If your God is so all-loving and all-powerful, why does he need you to stop people from going to hell? Why can't he just do it himself and destroy hell all together if God really hates hell so much? Is God too weak to destroy hell and save us all or does God not care enough?

 

Standing idle while someone is running toward a cliff like a lemming and not shouting to them to stop and think is what I would consider lacking in compassion. What's more, I'm also showing them the way out of Hell.

Why are you saving someone from running towards a cliff that your God created in the first place? Since according to your religion, your God wants to send us all to hell because he didn't get his way, why are you defying God's will and trying to stop us from running off a cliff that your God wills for us to run off of? You seem to be under the impression that it's our fault for running off a cliff when it's your God's fault for creating the cliff to begin with.

 

As to your second point: do you read books, do you listen to people's teachings, or has all the knowledge that you have accumulated from the time of your birth until now just fallen from the sky like a baby from a stork, or has it just been produced in the context of a vacuum? No, I would submit that you have studied and listened, and then have considered what you have read and heard, and then come to a conclusion.

The difference between our studying of other people's books and teachings is that we actually study their teachings and search for proof that their teachings are correct and if there is no proof that their teachings are true, we don't believe them or at the very least don't go around demanding others to conform to them, whereas Christians just accept everything either their preacher or their emotions tells them at face value, and expect and demand other people to do the same. And trust me on this, I've been a Christian once myself, so I know how Christians come to believe in the bible.

 

Contrary to popular belief, there are many Christians who have done the same thing. You and I have just come to different conclusions.

No, the problem is that you have no proof that Christianity is the only correct teaching.

 

Well, I obviously have a lot to get to, and it certainly won't catch up tonight, but hopefully I can respond to a good portion of these.

 

Again, if you want to have a "how do I know that I know" debate, than I think that is a separate issue. You and I are talking about Hell, an aspect of the Christian theology that the Christain faith holds. Matter of fact, I don't even think the topic at hand was whether or not Hell exists (and that is not to assume that the person who started this thread believes that it does, because I know better), but rather if people can be compassionate while still explaining to people that without Christ they are going to Hell. All I'm trying to do is to stick to the topic, because this one is pretty heavy on its own.

 

I'm willing to answer any questions, just not that leads off topic and not 20 in one post.

[walkthehawk]

God created us with no sin. Adam, sinned by eating of the apple, and therefore brought sin into himself, and being the representative for mankind, brought sin into all mankind. So, who's to blame? I would say mankind.

Liar. That's not what Isaiah 45:7 says.

 

I FORM THE LIGHT, AND CREATE DARKNESS: I MAKE PEACE, AND CREATE EVIL: I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS.

Your own bible says that God created evil, so don't you dare lie to us and tell us that it's our fault.

 

I do not think I am lying here. You sight Isaiah 45:7, but I don't see anywhere in that passage where it says that God created man with no sin, which is what I said.

[The-Captain]

Well, I obviously have a lot to get to, and it certainly won't catch up tonight, but hopefully I can respond to a good portion of these.

 

Again, if you want to have a "how do I know that I know" debate, than I think that is a separate issue. You and I are talking about Hell, an aspect of the Christian theology that the Christain faith holds. Matter of fact, I don't even think the topic at hand was whether or not Hell exists (and that is not to assume that the person who started this thread believes that it does, because I know better), but rather if people can be compassionate while still explaining to people that without Christ they are going to Hell. All I'm trying to do is to stick to the topic, because this one is pretty heavy on its own.

 

I'm willing to answer any questions, just not that leads off topic and not 20 in one post.

 

This is GraphicsGuy's thread so I'll leave it to him to state what exactly we are discussing here. However I'm pretty sure that the question wasn't whether you could be nice while "explaining" to people that they are going to hell.

 

What I do think we were talking about were the implications of adhering to an idea totally unfounded in reality, and whether you thought GG (or anyone for that matter) was deserving of infinite punishment.

[walkthehawk]

See my post to The-Doctor in response to your claim that this is somehow a surefire way of gaging that someone has little to no compassion.

 

OMG...I never said it was a "surefire" method of gauging compassion nor do I even think that it is.

 

The question is, "do I deserve to go to hell for eternity.

 

You are telling me that you could look a non-Christian/non-believer friend in the face and tell them that they deserve to go to hell for eternity???????????????

 

Now get this clue as well. I wasn't trying to gauge human compassion. I basically can already tell you that MOST human beings will say that nobody deserves hell for eternity.

 

The next question is: Why does the Christian God seem to have less compassion than most human beings? The Bible is supposedly his holy word and it says that we are deserving of the eternal flames of hell.

 

My apologies for putting words in your mouth.

 

I am telling you that I have, and those people still know full well that I love them, because there is a way of explaining it to people without being vulgar, judgmental, crass, or arrogant. You don't just say, "You're going to Hell" and leave it at that. You show them what God has provided for us so that we may have communion with Him instead of an eternity separated from Him.

 

As to your question concerning God's compassion, I first of all submit that Him saying that we deserve Hell is compassionate, because he didn't have to warn us, and he didn't have to provide his Son to provide a way out.

[walkthehawk]

God created us with no sin.Adam, sinned by eating of the apple, and therefore brought sin into himself, and being the representative for mankind, brought sin into all mankind. So, who's to blame? I would say mankind. Quite frankly, I would think that it is us who need to get off our high horses and get rid of that pride that stops us from communing with our Creator. Sounds like they suffer from rebellion, or something...

 

Yet God knew it would all happen in the first place.

 

God made the fruit. God made the talking-snake. God made the people.

 

God set the stage, set the dilemma, and left the scene.

 

Gee...do you really think he was surprised?????

 

Yes indeed, he knew it would happen and he was not surprised. God did make the fruit and the talking snake and the people. He did set the stage and the dilemma.

 

No where in there however did you say that God created man with sin. That is the point that I was trying to make above, because it was questioned that God is to blame in all of this. There has to be human responsibility.

[walkthehawk]

Decide right now that you will no longer tell anyone that they are doing anything wrong. To heck with the topic of religion for the moment. Don't say that someone has a character flaw that they need to fix, do not do that until you have taken care of all your character flaws, be sure not to cast any stones, not even to easy targets like Brittany Spears. Because if you do, then you have no more right to use those Scriptures in your argument than you suppose I do. Not that I would use them in the way you did, because you have such a completely different interpretation of what those passages mean than what they actually mean (and if you want to open up another thread to debate that, by all means do so, but this is a debate about Hell, so let's keep it that way).

 

Until next time everyone, have a wonderful day tomorrow.

There's a big difference between me offering constructive criticism to someone with a character flaw and you damning us all to hell unless we do what you say, and that's I don't demand that they have to follow my advice. I merely offer my advice and if they don't want to follow it, then that's their own shit to deal with, not mine and I move on to handle my own life, nor do I torture them for all eternity if they don't listen to me. And quite frankly, I don't give a shit about Britney Spears, so why would I bother complaining about her? But you consider it your own personal business to butt into other people's lives and tell us to be clones of yourself, then when someone tells you to fuck off, instead of moving on with your own personal life like adults do, you start complaining, like some three year old that demands us to give them that toy they want and starts whining when they don't get their way. So can you grow up when you find out that the real world does not revolve around you, please? To quote Sojourner from another thread on these forums, "you cannot love your neighbor as yourself if you think you are saved and enlightened but others are not saved and enlightened."

 

And we don't believe in your bullshit bible, so unless you have proof that your views of the bible's scriptures are correct, then your whining in your posts means nothing to us, so proof of the scripture's authority is most certainly relevant to the discussion in this thread, since what we are discussing is a teaching in biblical scripture. And if there's a right or wrong way to read the scripture, then why can't Christians ever agree on what the meaning of the scripture says? If God is all-knowing, why didn't he use his magical powers to make sure his holy word was clear enough for us to understand? Surely wouldn't such an all-knowing God had realized ahead of time that we wouldn't have been able to comprehend his teachings?

 

1. I'm not the one damning anyone.

2. I as well only am the messanger, and people can accept or reject the Gospel. I can not force my view on anyone, even if I tried.

3. I do not ask people to be a clone of me, for that would be a huge mistake on my part and theirs. I would have them be clones of Jesus, or at least live the rest of their life attempting to do such.

4. What you call complaining I simply call debating the issue.

5. I do not believe the world revolves around me. I would need to repent if people I trust told me I did.

6. I would like to know where I was "whining". If after being shown that I was, then I will apologize for doing so.

7. If God is all-knowing (which I believe he is btw, to the person who pointed out my use of the word "if"), don't you think he knows better than me, or you, or anyone.

8. Many Christians have agreed on the central teachings. I pray that there would be more unity in the church however.

[walkthehawk]

Well I'm not going to BS you and say that it is easy for me to tell someone in person that they are in danger of going to Hell, but sometimes the truth isn't easy.

Truth? Really?

 

However, it is necessary. It's hard because from the limited knowledge I know about Hell, it is a terrible place. However, if Hell exists, and I believe that someone is in danger of going there, is it logical to say that I'm all of a sudden void of compassion for telling them. I would think quite the opposite. Standing idle while someone is running toward a cliff like a lemming and not shouting to them to stop and think is what I would consider lacking in compassion. What's more, I'm also showing them the way out of Hell.

 

I never said you were without compassion for wanting to "save" people from hell. In fact I would say that makes you more compassionate than the god you believe in. The idea is to try to think of this stuff outside of your box of blithe acceptance of dogma as "the way things are".

 

This is just ridiculous though, you say that people are "running toward a cliff like lemmings". I said it before, what was their crime exactly? Being born? And where did you get this idea that hell is a real place that everyone that doesn't think like you goes to?

 

As to your second point: do you read books, do you listen to people's teachings, or has all the knowledge that you have accumulated from the time of your birth until now just fallen from the sky like a baby from a stork, or has it just been produced in the context of a vacuum? No, I would submit that you have studied and listened, and then have considered what you have read and heard, and then come to a conclusion. Contrary to popular belief, there are many Christians who have done the same thing. You and I have just come to different conclusions.

 

Depends on what we are reading, as we all know not everything we are presented with is true. So what do we do? We compare it to reality and our own experiences. What exactly is your reasoning for accepting hell, sin nature, original sin, and your ideas of salvation as true?

 

I would submit that you know jack shit about anything having to do with cosmic orders and what happens to people after they die. Nothing to be ashamed of there, that just makes you like everyone else that has ever lived and died.

 

My point was that you are working with this entire world view based on a bunch of second hand "revelations" that are completely unsubstantiated in reality, and egregiously contradictory and contrived to boot.

 

Just to let everyone know, I'll try to get in here as much as I can, but I'm getting married soon, so that is taking up some time in my life. I look forward to the conversations we can have.

 

Congrats then.

 

Hope you have time to reply once we are all done piling on.

 

Edit: Just noticed this

 

Many churches do screw up the doctrine of salvation to make there members to not be confident of there position, and that is a crying shame.

 

 

Yes. Really.

 

I could never have more compassion than the God who would send his Son to die for someone like me, who is nothing more than a poor sinner. I could never have more compassion than the God who would die for me.

 

As regards to the crime, Matt 5:48, Romans 3:11-18, Romans 6:23. And though being born isn't the crime, Scripture does teach that we were born with sin, due to the original sin of Adam.

 

Hell exists based upon the explanation of Scripture on the matter. Now you may say, "well that's rich", but the authority of Scripture is a basic presupposition that I hold to, because it is God's word. Circular reasoning you say? I submit that at the end of the day the basic presuppositions that we use to shape our worldview are all justified by circular reasoning. One will say that I hold to nothing else but to the Scientific method. Why? Because we can only know what is true by what we see and can observe in action... circular. Another will hold to logic and say that is their number one presup... why?, because it is the most reasonable approach. Again, circular. The question at the end of the day is which presups lead to consistency and which lead to worldviews crumbling in themselves. That debate however I believe is best placed in another thread.

 

Thanks for the congrats. I'm trying as best I can to respond to each of ya.

 

I am curious about the throw up icon.

[Neon Genesis]

Again, if you want to have a "how do I know that I know" debate, than I think that is a separate issue. You and I are talking about Hell, an aspect of the Christian theology that the Christain faith holds. Matter of fact, I don't even think the topic at hand was whether or not Hell exists (and that is not to assume that the person who started this thread believes that it does, because I know better), but rather if people can be compassionate while still explaining to people that without Christ they are going to Hell. All I'm trying to do is to stick to the topic, because this one is pretty heavy on its own.

 

I'm willing to answer any questions, just not that leads off topic and not 20 in one post.

Expect that as I said before, hell and even the question of whether or not someone deserves to go to hell is a doctrine taught within biblical scripture, thus I think the authenticity of biblical scripture is most certainly relevant to the discussion. And unless graphicsguy disagrees, you cannot claim that I'm going off-topic since you were not the original topic starter nor are you a moderator. If graphicguys thinks I'm going off-topic in the thread, then he can tell me so and I'll apologize and back off. Until then, you can't claim I'm taking this thread off-topic anymore so than you taking this thread off-topic to attempt to convert us. Also, when someone says they're just saying what the bible says about hell when they state someone deserves hell, to us that comes across as a personal insult from you since we don't believe in your bible. Would you like it if we wrote a fairytale book that said whoever didn't believe in it went to hell and then went around telling you that you deserve to be tortured for all eternity in hell because you didn't believe in our fairytale book and that you have to accept it no matter what even though we can't prove our fairytale is true?

 

I do not think I am lying here. You sight Isaiah 45:7, but I don't see anywhere in that passage where it says that God created man with no sin, which is what I said.

Some translations of the bible will translate evil as "calamity", but it should be there if you check the King James version. But even then that's not the only place in the bible that says God is responsible for evil in the world. There are plenty of other verses too that states God is evil like Genesis 4:22 which says, "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil." Here God clearly states that he knows both good AND EVIL, so here's another verse that shows God is evil. Another example is in John 1:1-5 it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." These verses say that ALL THINGS were made THROUGH GOD, and that there was NOTHING that was made that wasn't created by God. It doesn't say that everything in the universe was created by God expect evil, but that God CREATED EVERYTHING. And if you want other verses that show God committing horrible and inhumane acts, I can gladly link you to them.

 

Even the Jews didn't believe Adam and Eve started sin since the Jews didn't believe in the same idea of the afterlife and sin that Christians do. The doctrine of original sin is an entirely original Christian concept. Surely if Adam and Eve created sin, then wouldn't have God told the Jews that? Why did he wait centuries to suddenly tell everyone "Oh yeah, you guys remember that Eve bitch? You guys are going to hell unless you do what I say and it's all her fault." That makes no sense for God to wait so long to tell his people something so important to their souls. And you claimed that God did not create sin but it was mankind's fault, but I pointed out to you with the verses I quoted that GOD DID CREATE SIN. HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE, SIN IS APART OF THE UNIVERSE, SO GOD MOST CERTAINLY DID CREATE SIN. EVEN THE BIBLE SAYS HE DID. So, can you stop with the lying and mental gymnastics already? We are ex-Christians, you know. You seem to be under the impression that we've never heard any of this before when we most certainly had a million times and we're telling you that you're saying nothing new and are wasting time here, so why don't you listen to Jesus and dust the sandals off your feet and move on? Or are you willingly disobeying Jesus' teachings? Some of us deconverted from Christianity because of what you are teaching us, so what the hell makes you think we're going to reconvert if you just repeat yourself enough times?

[walkthehawk]

God created us with no sin. Adam, sinned by eating of the apple, and therefore brought sin into himself, and being the representative for mankind, brought sin into all mankind. So, who's to blame? I would say mankind. Quite frankly, I would think that it is us who need to get off our high horses and get rid of that pride that stops us from communing with our Creator. Sounds like they suffer from rebellion, or something...

 

Nonsense. As has been pointed out earlier, God set the rules, and God knew what would happen. I repeat GOD KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN. Think about that for awhile instead of just blindly accepting the notion that mankind is to blame. Anyway, sin doesn't exist and hell doesn't exist.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever of some kind of perfect world existing and then a Fall. It is mythology.

 

Since you say you are getting married soon, seems to me you would have more important matters to attend to than coming on here wasting your time.

 

Well gee, I guess that's that than huh?

 

I do not disagree with you in the thought that God knew it would happen, but then that is not what I was saying. Again, what I said is that God created man with no sin. Sin enter humanity through humanity's actions.

[Neon Genesis]

1. I'm not the one damning anyone.

Yes, you are, otherwise you wouldn't be continuing this discussion.

 

2. I as well only am the messanger, and people can accept or reject the Gospel. I can not force my view on anyone, even if I tried.

Expect as I said before, we don't believe in your messenger, so to us YOU ARE THE MESSENGER.

 

3. I do not ask people to be a clone of me, for that would be a huge mistake on my part and theirs. I would have them be clones of Jesus, or at least live the rest of their life attempting to do such.

Again, we do not believe in Jesus, so unless you can prove to us that the mythical Jesus is true, then you are most certainly wanting us to be clones of yourself.

 

4. What you call complaining I simply call debating the issue.

Expect you are not debating. You're just quoting scripture at us and plugging up your ears and going "la la la la, I can't hearrrr youuuu..." when we try to argue back, hence you are complaining.

 

 

5. I do not believe the world revolves around me. I would need to repent if people I trust told me I did.

Then, why do you act like your views are the only correct views?

 

6. I would like to know where I was "whining". If after being shown that I was, then I will apologize for doing so

Oh, there's lots of examples. How about this one for starters?

 

Neon Genesis, I want to read your post a bit more thoroughly before I respond, because it is bed time for me, but until then I will say the following. Since you have used all the passages from Scripture concerning judging and planks in eyes and so forth, I want you to do me a favor. Decide right now that you will no longer tell anyone that they are doing anything wrong.

 

7. If God is all-knowing (which I believe he is btw, to the person who pointed out my use of the word "if"), don't you think he knows better than me, or you, or anyone.

Ah, the mysterious God's ways cop-out. Can you say at least something original or are you just wasting our time here?

 

8. Many Christians have agreed on the central teachings. I pray that there would be more unity in the church however.

Translation: I hope they become "real" Christians like me! Teehehehe!

[Ouroboros]

No where in there however did you say that God created man with sin. That is the point that I was trying to make above, because it was questioned that God is to blame in all of this. There has to be human responsibility.

Lets see. The first cause argument we hear so often, that everything that we know of and exists is traced back to one and one only cause for it all, and the argument is always that this first cause is God. Now, sin however, doesn't have God as a first cause according to Christians, but it's humans and the devil that "created" sin. So the whole first cause argument is starting to look a big weak here. Basically, not everything can be traced back through a serious of contingent steps to one single origin, because it's either God, Satan and Adam that are the first causes... or Jesus, or HS, or Bob, or the Spaghetti Monster, and so on. If Christians want to have the cake, they can not eat it at the same time! Either eat it or have it, but not both ways.

 

So which way is it? First cause and sin comes from God, or sin doesn't come from God and first cause is a bad argument?

[GraphicsGuy]

Fuck. I may as well talk to this can of OJ in front of me.

 

"Hey, can of OJ, do I deserve to go to hell for eternity?"

 

*silence*

 

"I'll take that as a 'no.' Okay, well do I deserve hell for, let's say, a few days maybe?"

 

*silence*

 

"I'll take that as a 'maybe.' Can of OJ, why are you more compassionate than God and the Bible and Xianity that say I do deserve eternal hell?"

 

*silence*

 

"What's that? You think it's because Xianity is full of shit and I should drink more OJ? Fair enough."

[walkthehawk]

Neon Genesis, I want to read your post a bit more thoroughly before I respond, because it is bed time for me, but until then I will say the following. Since you have used all the passages from Scripture concerning judging and planks in eyes and so forth, I want you to do me a favor. Decide right now that you will no longer tell anyone that they are doing anything wrong. To heck with the topic of religion for the moment. Don't say that someone has a character flaw that they need to fix, do not do that until you have taken care of all your character flaws, be sure not to cast any stones, not even to easy targets like Brittany Spears. Because if you do, then you have no more right to use those Scriptures in your argument than you suppose I do. Not that I would use them in the way you did, because you have such a completely different interpretation of what those passages mean than what they actually mean (and if you want to open up another thread to debate that, by all means do so, but this is a debate about Hell, so let's keep it that way).

 

Until next time everyone, have a wonderful day tomorrow.

This is our website. You're stepping on our toes. Read this very, very carefully:

DO NOT MAKE ANY DEMANDS ON OUR ACTIONS ON THIS WEBSITE!!!

 

Have anyone here, or I, EVER gone to your Church and demanded changes in your practice or speech? The answer is NO WE HAVE NOT!

 

And why? Because we respect your existence and beliefs, and we respect your domain. But you obviously do not. That to me, is the cardinal "sin" of all.

 

Next time I will not be as gracious, but I will kick your hair butt out from this site, in an instant. Capice?

 

I am going to skip our previous post to this one so that I can address the one I am replying to now before I go to bed, because this is the one I wanted to address more than any other.

 

I did not say what I said here as a way of "demanding changes in your practice or speech". Even if I did do that, this is an Internet forum for crying out loud. What are you expected to do, say "Yes master". Please. I know better than that. What was meant by that was to point out how quickly people point to that Scripture, rip it out of context, and then suggest that they can use that passage against me, but the minute that I do the same thing, I get this post. My point is proven. A double standard is set. My point is simply to show that was an illogical attempt to disprove my point. Changing behavior was the last thing on my mind. Challenging thoughts was the point.

 

You are absolutely right. You, nor anyone else I imagine, has stepped into my church and done those things. Problem is I don't think I have either. I have taken quite a bit of flack for trying to point some things out. With that said, I invite you all to DerekWebb.com, where I do most of my posting. It is a Christian sight, and I assure you as long as there is no major vulgarity you will be able to make any point you would like. I do this because I truly think you would benefit from the dialogue, but to also show that I wold glady have you step into my world, as you have allowed me into yours.

 

I respect your right to your belief. I greatly disagree with them, and pray they will change over time. If I did not communicate effectively enough what my argument was, I honestly apologize. But I assure you that my intentions were not what you are making them to be.

 

I am going to bed now. I hope this isn't my last chance to post here, though I get the sneaking suspicion it might be. Have a good night everyone.

[Ouroboros]

I did not say what I said here as a way of "demanding changes in your practice or speech". Even if I did do that, this is an Internet forum for crying out loud. What are you expected to do, say "Yes master". Please. I know better than that. What was meant by that was to point out how quickly people point to that Scripture, rip it out of context, and then suggest that they can use that passage against me, but the minute that I do the same thing, I get this post. My point is proven. A double standard is set. My point is simply to show that was an illogical attempt to disprove my point. Changing behavior was the last thing on my mind. Challenging thoughts was the point.

Yes, a double standard is set on this website. Live with it. Behave or you're out. And you did tell a member of this community how to behave. That's my job, not yours.

 

You are absolutely right. You, nor anyone else I imagine, has stepped into my church and done those things. Problem is I don't think I have either. I have taken quite a bit of flack for trying to point some things out. With that said, I invite you all to DerekWebb.com, where I do most of my posting. It is a Christian sight, and I assure you as long as there is no major vulgarity you will be able to make any point you would like. I do this because I truly think you would benefit from the dialogue, but to also show that I wold glady have you step into my world, as you have allowed me into yours.

This purpose of this website (site, not sight) is to provide a safe haven for recently de-converted Christians (that is Ex-Christians for literally challenged individuals), and I have no reason, what-so-ever, to you give you any slack more than I want. Call it tyranny or dictatorship if you want, but I do sit with the control panel and the red-button.

 

I respect your right to your belief. I greatly disagree with them, and pray they will change over time. If I did not communicate effectively enough what my argument was, I honestly apologize. But I assure you that my intentions were not what you are making them to be.

Personally, I have not problems if you use your "Holy" Book for your arguments, but there are members here that don't like it, and I respect their wishes.

 

I am going to bed now. I hope this isn't my last chance to post here, though I get the sneaking suspicion it might be. Have a good night everyone.

One thing about this website (site, not sight) is that we are extremely lenient and allow a lot of crap coming from your community. However, there are limits to what I can and will allow. Get used to it.

[Grandpa Harley]

Neon Genesis, I want to read your post a bit more thoroughly before I respond, because it is bed time for me, but until then I will say the following. Since you have used all the passages from Scripture concerning judging and planks in eyes and so forth, I want you to do me a favor. Decide right now that you will no longer tell anyone that they are doing anything wrong. To heck with the topic of religion for the moment. Don't say that someone has a character flaw that they need to fix, do not do that until you have taken care of all your character flaws, be sure not to cast any stones, not even to easy targets like Brittany Spears. Because if you do, then you have no more right to use those Scriptures in your argument than you suppose I do. Not that I would use them in the way you did, because you have such a completely different interpretation of what those passages mean than what they actually mean (and if you want to open up another thread to debate that, by all means do so, but this is a debate about Hell, so let's keep it that way).

 

Until next time everyone, have a wonderful day tomorrow.

This is our website. You're stepping on our toes. Read this very, very carefully:

DO NOT MAKE ANY DEMANDS ON OUR ACTIONS ON THIS WEBSITE!!!

 

Have anyone here, or I, EVER gone to your Church and demanded changes in your practice or speech? The answer is NO WE HAVE NOT!

 

And why? Because we respect your existence and beliefs, and we respect your domain. But you obviously do not. That to me, is the cardinal "sin" of all.

 

Next time I will not be as gracious, but I will kick your hair butt out from this site, in an instant. Capice?

 

I am going to skip our previous post to this one so that I can address the one I am replying to now before I go to bed, because this is the one I wanted to address more than any other.

 

I did not say what I said here as a way of "demanding changes in your practice or speech". Even if I did do that, this is an Internet forum for crying out loud. What are you expected to do, say "Yes master". Please. I know better than that. What was meant by that was to point out how quickly people point to that Scripture, rip it out of context, and then suggest that they can use that passage against me, but the minute that I do the same thing, I get this post. My point is proven. A double standard is set. My point is simply to show that was an illogical attempt to disprove my point. Changing behavior was the last thing on my mind. Challenging thoughts was the point.

 

You are absolutely right. You, nor anyone else I imagine, has stepped into my church and done those things. Problem is I don't think I have either. I have taken quite a bit of flack for trying to point some things out. With that said, I invite you all to DerekWebb.com, where I do most of my posting. It is a Christian sight, and I assure you as long as there is no major vulgarity you will be able to make any point you would like. I do this because I truly think you would benefit from the dialogue, but to also show that I wold glady have you step into my world, as you have allowed me into yours.

 

I respect your right to your belief. I greatly disagree with them, and pray they will change over time. If I did not communicate effectively enough what my argument was, I honestly apologize. But I assure you that my intentions were not what you are making them to be.

 

I am going to bed now. I hope this isn't my last chance to post here, though I get the sneaking suspicion it might be. Have a good night everyone.

 

Oh, do cut the Uriah Heep shit, you moron... false hand wringing and 'piteous sinner' crap doesn't butter parsnips... God's death, but you're an empty headed pile of festering dog's entrails...

 

[Deva]

God created us with no sin. Adam, sinned by eating of the apple, and therefore brought sin into himself, and being the representative for mankind, brought sin into all mankind. So, who's to blame? I would say mankind. Quite frankly, I would think that it is us who need to get off our high horses and get rid of that pride that stops us from communing with our Creator. Sounds like they suffer from rebellion, or something...

 

Nonsense. As has been pointed out earlier, God set the rules, and God knew what would happen. I repeat GOD KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN. Think about that for awhile instead of just blindly accepting the notion that mankind is to blame. Anyway, sin doesn't exist and hell doesn't exist.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever of some kind of perfect world existing and then a Fall. It is mythology.

 

Well gee, I guess that's that than huh?

 

I do not disagree with you in the thought that God knew it would happen, but then that is not what I was saying. Again, what I said is that God created man with no sin. Sin enter humanity through humanity's actions.

 

My whole point is that God is responsible for so-called "sin" and God made up the consequenses for sin. God is ENTIRELY to blame for the whole setup, NOT man as you allege. The foreknowledge of God bears directly on the situation you described.

 

You are very dismissive with your "Well gee...". We are certainly entitled to express our opinions, after all you came here, we are not on your site.

[Grandpa Harley]

and as I've pointed out many times before... 4 hours on the cross wasn't a 'bad' crucifixion... the average was 48 hours and some people lasted a week.

 

4 hours paid off who's sins and who to? God sacrificed God to God? Why?

 

If we're all still hell bound, including Walkthedog, then it was a piece of empty theatre....

 

 

Something old bumface hasn't explained... how anyone in the Gospels can talk of Hell, since there was no concept of a punishment after life (or even an afterlife according to some readings) in Aramaic thought and the concept couldn't be communicated and more than the Pirahã can discuss the science of very large primes, having no philosophical or linguistic structure to support numbers greater than three...

 

All well and good saying 'Jesus said it, I believe it' when Jesus couldn't have THOUGHT it, let alone said it...

 

Basically old Limping Dog is prosletysing something along the lines of the cult of Dionysos, since the Greeks and Romans had Hells... but the Aramic Semites did not...

 

 

as to the previous two posts!

 

TESTIFY SISTERS!!!!!!!!!

[walkthehawk]

Who created the Apple? Who created the rule? Who created the punishment for disobeying the rule? Who created Adam to be able to sin? And who knew what was going to happen and could prevent it?

 

First cause argument: everything has a beginning, and all traces back to God, hence sin, disobedience, evil, and hate all traces back to God.

 

God very well decreed evil, but he did not create it. Evil is not a substance, spirit, etc, that is to be created. Evil, according to the Scriptural definition, is a defect, the deterioration of something good. Scripture is clear that God is not the author nor creator of evil, but he does decree all things.

 

Doesn't the Bible say something like, perfect love drive out fear? So is God perfect love, and you have no fear of him, or do you fear him and he doesn't have perfect love?

 

There is fear that I believe you are speaking of, which is a fear of people, things, etc, and then there is a healthy fear that is reverence (for example, I did not fear my dad, but I certainly had a healthy reverence for him). The Scripture you speak of is referring to the former, whereas I am referring to the latter.

 

Why didn't Jesus give you that peace from start? Why did you have to brainwash yourself to get to that position? Isn't that God's responsibility to make you feel safe and conviction? Maybe your doubt is a proof that your mind is trying to resist the delusion and mind-altering-religious-experience (and I don't mean that as a good thing)?

 

Who says he wasn't trying. Perhaps I was not responding. Perhaps he had to let me experience that doubt so as to work through it and see his true character. Brainwashing is forced, this was not. And I would totally agree with you that my doubt was proof of my mind trying to resist, but I would say it was because there is still sin in my life that I am being sanctified from.

 

Many churches do screw up the doctrine of salvation to make there members to not be confident of there position, and that is a crying shame. I would say that had more to do with the trouble we see today, that you spoke of, then the existence of Hell itself.

I'm not sure what you're saying. It's the churches fault that there's sin and problems in the world? Sure, I can agree to that. Lets get rid of them then!

 

The "trouble" I was referring to was people lacking confidence in the teachings of Scripture and how it applies to them. And I would certainly hope those churches repent of such ways, but if that is not to be, than don't worry, those churches will phase out in due time. Then they can be replaced by churches who strengthen there members, as opposed to weakening them and not helping them through tough times.

 

It can be.

 

If you have a real danger ahead, and you are trying to avoid an imaginary danger instead, you might not be able to avoid the first, real and present, danger. For instance, you're driving on the freeway, and suddenly you swerve to avoid the imaginary pit in the road, and you get yourself into a huge accident. It wasn't a good thing to avoid the pit that didn't exist. You need to live in reality, to be safe.

 

Compare that to: which religion is true?

 

Lets say only one religion is true, and only one kind of Hell exists. Now if Judaism is true, and Christianity is a false, heretic cult that mislead and will cause people to go to Hell. Then which religion is the narrow and difficult road to follow? If this is true, then you're going to Hell, and did your self-preservation help you or not?

 

You lost me with the religion situation. As to your driving analogy, I disagree obviously with your contention that the imaginary danger is imaginary, when in fact for those who are without Jesus very much not.

 

Second, Christianity is about more than "self-preservation", and again, we have many American churches to blame for people believing that is what it is all about.

Yes. Lets get rid of them all (except for yours, because only your version of Christianity must be the true one, since you feel so confident about it. And the other ones must be wrong because you are confident they are wrong. But of course all those other false prophets also feel confident about the opposite to you, but hey, it must be YOU that have the truth, not THEM! You have a small piece of narcissism between your teeth, maybe you should floss that before you continue...)

 

:sigh:

 

Those essentials of the Christian faith that have stood since the Church began are not just from me. Hello! Of course there will be differences among various doctrines, but if those are not essential to salvation, they can be disagreement among the Church.

 

Third, exactly what do you mean by "love" in this context?

Oh bummer! Love, of course you would catch on to that one. Oh, my God! God must exist, because I have no fucking clue what love is, and atheists can't explain or understand or use the word "love"! Oh, holy Jesus, you fantasy character of all ages! Take my heart into your imaginary love, that explains everything, by explaining nothing. Let me see the light and understand how I can harmonize Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Golden Compass, the Quran and the Bible to one Holy Babble.

 

You seriously think that "love" is such a difficult topic for a board who gets the "blessing" of discussing it only once every two weeks for years?

 

Love is an emotion, felt by your mind and body. It's both a chemical response, and also a response in the psyche on the "meta-physical" level (like Windows reacts to your mouse click. Is it the computer, or is it the Operating System?) to certain situation, based on familiarity, compatibility and much more. Also, love is a description of something we "like very much". These feelings and reactions has evolved in both the genetic and memetic level, out of need for selection of the most fitted partner, but also for the need of surviving by eating the right things or being inclined to make the right decisions before we had the ability to make rational analysis to the best decision. Utilitarianism and the Categorical Imperative wasn't invented when were still apes (and even before that).

 

So what?

 

I was just asking you to explain what you meant by love in that context. You're the one who seems to know me through and through in a matter of days to be able to know my motives and my heart to conclude that I must think you don't know crap from apple butter about love. Sorry you think that.

 

With that said, what do you mean by love in the context of what you just wrote. You said, what Christians hope it would be (paraphrasing). So what do you think I mean by love.

[walkthehawk]

sometimes the truth isn't easy. However, it is necessary. It's hard because from the limited knowledge I know about Hell, it is a terrible place. However, if Hell exists, and I believe that someone is in danger of going there, is it logical to say that I'm all of a sudden void of compassion for telling them. I would think quite the opposite.

 

OK, here is the problem that I see.

 

1.) You call hell "the truth". YET

 

2.) you admit you have limited knowledge and 3.) You are not even certain it exists.

 

Therefore, it is not at all logical for you to tell people they are in danger of going there. Why start scaring the crap out of someone and enslaving them to your religion over limited knowledge and ifs????? Do you go around scaring people over other things you're are not sure about? Do you also go around screaming "fire" in a crowded public place just in case, because fires do happen?

 

You think that it is fine for people to be scared over this one fact because you feel it is fine for you, just in case, right? But what if you ARE WRONG? You know there are people who live in agony and fear for their loved ones. They give up lucrative jobs and oodles of money supporting the cause of spreading your religion over the thought that people might be going to hell. Some people have developed anxiety disorders or depression related to the fear of hell. Other people have lain awake in mental agony wondering if their deceased loved one is at this very moment suffering the most unimaginable agony without hope of release for the rest of eternity.

 

Though I think inside you believe you have compassionate intentions, the fact of the matter is that what you are doing is irresponsible and cruel.

 

I admit I have limited knowledge because there's only been limited revelation by God about Hell. I mean, do you know all there is to know about the planet Jupiter, the inner workings of a cell, or about George Washington? I imagine not, but imagine just as easily that you believe that they all exist and work the way they are supposed to work.

 

And I used the word "if" as a way to set up a premise of a conditional statement, not because I am unsure. That is how an "if-then" statement works. Come on folks. I know you think that because I am a Christian I must have an IQ smaller than your shoe size, but trust me I know some things.

[walkthehawk]

God created us with no sin. Adam, sinned by eating of the apple, and therefore brought sin into himself, and being the representative for mankind, brought sin into all mankind. So, who's to blame? I would say mankind....

 

So god chose an arbitrary man to represent me. Had I been given the choice to represent myself, THEN you could talk about free will.

And all of humanity burns in hell forever since the schmuck ate a stupid piece of fruit? That is quite honestly the most hateful as well as stupid thing anyone could expect someone to believe.

 

The perfect catch-22. I give you free will, but the person I chose to use your free will for you in Eden made the wrong choice, based on his growling stomach. So gnash your teeth and sizzle, you and your unsaved children, too, heathen, cause you are born to burn.

 

I will never again buy into that evil swill. Never.

 

God is never arbitrary.

 

As to free will, I guess that also means that when we can choose how, where and when you were born, then we can also talk about free will.

[walkthehawk]

Heh got quite the backlog of rebuttals going. I doubt he'll be able to answer back to all of them, especially if he has a wedding coming up.

 

I'm working on it.

[walkthehawk]

Again, if you want to have a "how do I know that I know" debate, than I think that is a separate issue. You and I are talking about Hell, an aspect of the Christian theology that the Christain faith holds. Matter of fact, I don't even think the topic at hand was whether or not Hell exists (and that is not to assume that the person who started this thread believes that it does, because I know better), but rather if people can be compassionate while still explaining to people that without Christ they are going to Hell. All I'm trying to do is to stick to the topic, because this one is pretty heavy on its own.

 

I'm willing to answer any questions, just not that leads off topic and not 20 in one post.

Expect that as I said before, hell and even the question of whether or not someone deserves to go to hell is a doctrine taught within biblical scripture, thus I think the authenticity of biblical scripture is most certainly relevant to the discussion. And unless graphicsguy disagrees, you cannot claim that I'm going off-topic since you were not the original topic starter nor are you a moderator. If graphicguys thinks I'm going off-topic in the thread, then he can tell me so and I'll apologize and back off. Until then, you can't claim I'm taking this thread off-topic anymore so than you taking this thread off-topic to attempt to convert us. Also, when someone says they're just saying what the bible says about hell when they state someone deserves hell, to us that comes across as a personal insult from you since we don't believe in your bible. Would you like it if we wrote a fairytale book that said whoever didn't believe in it went to hell and then went around telling you that you deserve to be tortured for all eternity in hell because you didn't believe in our fairytale book and that you have to accept it no matter what even though we can't prove our fairytale is true?

 

You can make whatever book you want, and I won't take personal offense to it. But then again, since you inspired it, and you not being the Creator God of the universe, I guess you would have a harder time than me at claiming that it has any kind of authority over anyone's life. No offense, the same would be said of anyone else, including me.

 

I do not think I am lying here. You sight Isaiah 45:7, but I don't see anywhere in that passage where it says that God created man with no sin, which is what I said.

Some translations of the bible will translate evil as "calamity", but it should be there if you check the King James version. But even then that's not the only place in the bible that says God is responsible for evil in the world. There are plenty of other verses too that states God is evil like Genesis 4:22 which says, "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil." Here God clearly states that he knows both good AND EVIL, so here's another verse that shows God is evil. Another example is in John 1:1-5 it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." These verses say that ALL THINGS were made THROUGH GOD, and that there was NOTHING that was made that wasn't created by God. It doesn't say that everything in the universe was created by God expect evil, but that God CREATED EVERYTHING. And if you want other verses that show God committing horrible and inhumane acts, I can gladly link you to them.

 

As I said in a previous post, I do not disagree with the fact that God created all things, and that God decreed evil. I do disagree with the fact that God created evil, because based on what evil by definition is, and what it is not (a "thing" as you put it), God can not be held as the author or creator of it.

 

Even the Jews didn't believe Adam and Eve started sin since the Jews didn't believe in the same idea of the afterlife and sin that Christians do. The doctrine of original sin is an entirely original Christian concept. Surely if Adam and Eve created sin, then wouldn't have God told the Jews that? Why did he wait centuries to suddenly tell everyone "Oh yeah, you guys remember that Eve bitch? You guys are going to hell unless you do what I say and it's all her fault." That makes no sense for God to wait so long to tell his people something so important to their souls. And you claimed that God did not create sin but it was mankind's fault, but I pointed out to you with the verses I quoted that GOD DID CREATE SIN. HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE, SIN IS APART OF THE UNIVERSE, SO GOD MOST CERTAINLY DID CREATE SIN. EVEN THE BIBLE SAYS HE DID. So, can you stop with the lying and mental gymnastics already? We are ex-Christians, you know. You seem to be under the impression that we've never heard any of this before when we most certainly had a million times and we're telling you that you're saying nothing new and are wasting time here, so why don't you listen to Jesus and dust the sandals off your feet and move on? Or are you willingly disobeying Jesus' teachings? Some of us deconverted from Christianity because of what you are teaching us, so what the hell makes you think we're going to reconvert if you just repeat yourself enough times?

 

And you say I'm repeating myself.

 

Funny, but I don't recall the Isrealites of the OT having a different view of Adam and Eve than we do. So could you explain to me how the OT people (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc) felt differently about Adam/Eve and original sin than Christians do?