Miracles witnessed by Freestyle Fred

[Fweethawt]

I even had the pleasure of having a True Christian™ take a shit on me in that thread too. 

 

Ahhh.... Those were the good'ol days.

 

Do Tell

 

I don't remember all of the details of my extimony, nor do I remember all of the details of the plopping turds from the True Christian™ in that thread. I'll attempt to recall it as best as I can. I just hope that you can follow along, and that it actually makes sense.

 

Part of my extimony dealt with a time in my life when I was still a believer. It was the time when my wife almost died from Crohn's Disease / Ulcerative Colitis. After the DOCTORS got her condition under control through a short hospital stay and medication, we prayed for a healing. The family prayed for a healing. The entire church prayed for a healing. A group within the church did the biblical hands-on-annointing-with-oil thingy. Then I prayed. I prayed like I never prayed before. I prayed in gut-wrenching tears for my wife to be healed. I asked God to take my life if it meant that she would be healed.

 

To this day, she is still on the medication that keeps her disease dormant within her intestines. Sometimes when the disease flares-up, she has to increase her medication and there are times when she can get away with taking less medication, but eventually, the disease still lets her know that she must continue to take it otherwise she will die or have to go through an extremely humiliating surgery.

(I know, the Christian God thrives off of humility. Perhaps this is what he's waiting for? )

 

But anyway, Khan, after I explained about that section of my life in my extimony, a True Christian™ stepped in and showed me the error of my ways.

 

You see, I wasn't being selfish enough according to him (the True Christian™). My primary focus was supposed to be on myself and to make sure that things between God and myself were as they should be before I even worried about my wife. He even went so far as to say something along the lines of, "You should be worried about saving your own ass before you worry about your wife's ass." His use of the word "ass" was a direct insult to my wife's condition if you are familiar with what those diseases actually damage within the body.

 

So, that's pretty close to the shitting that I experienced in my extimony thread.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

If I'm imagining your description of the shooting star pattern correctly, they match perfectly the pattern of the bullet holes in my sisters chest when she was murdered. She didn't die right away though. She lived long enough after the shooting to still be conscious while her throat was cut. I'm almost positive that at the time, she was praying for a miracle.

 

Where was God then, Freddy?

 

Perhaps he was too busy sending shooting stars over concerts where loads of people are singing "rain down on me". Of course, it probably didn't occur to you that shooting stars are not rain. Let alone that what you call shooting stars, aren't stars at all.

 

 

That's terrible, Fwee. My aunt was shot in the head when I was five by her boyfriend -- a nice, typical coke dealer -- who ended up being killed himself by the dealers he held back money on. I don't remember her. I didn't even know what she looked like until my dad showed me his old copy of National Geographic; her and my grandfather (also dead) are sitting in a bar in Milwaukee. It was the August, 1980 issue; exactly a year before I was born. It's the only picture I have of her.

 

And I don't know what she was thinking at the time. I don't know what drove him to do it. All I know is, if she was praying for a miracle, obviously it didn't happen. A Lutheran living in sin obviously wasn't good enough for God's consideration.

 

Also, on the subject of God's wacky ways: a customer of mine was telling my boss about the eye operation one of her employees had to go through. I don't know what was wrong, but the girl had to have an eye removed, and she was terrified to go through with it. Well, when she had a check-up prior to it, the doctors scared her even more shitless by saying they thought she had cancer on one of her organs that might also need removal. So not only was she going to have an eye taken out, but an organ as well.

 

It was a false alarm.

 

The customer concluded by saying, "You see? God knew she was scared about losing an eye, so He sent her a bigger problem to freak out over so the eye really wasn't such a bad thing in the end. He knows what He's doing."

 

 

Yes. The next time you need a tooth pulled, God will make sure to send you an appendicitis scare, just to take the edge off your rotted molar. Because God is looking out for you.

[Caretaker]

But anyway, Khan, after I explained about that section of my life in my extimony, a True Christian™ stepped in and showed me the error of my ways. 

 

You see, I wasn't being selfish enough according to him (the True Christian™). My primary focus was supposed to be on myself and to make sure that things between God and myself were as they should be before I even worried about my wife. He even went so far as to say something along the lines of, "You should be worried about saving your own ass before you worry about your wife's ass." His use of the word "ass" was a direct insult to my wife's condition if you are familiar with what those diseases actually damage within the body.

 

So, that's pretty close to the shitting that I experienced in my extimony thread.

Wow, this is like, up there with YoYo shitting all over Han's story...

[Christopher Carrion]

What makes an event a miracle? The intentions and individual interpretations of the observer. A Christian will see evidence for God in whatever they come across, as they have a marked intention in doing so. The atheist will not. Miracles are no more than this; people interpreting pre-existing events or phenomena to fit in with and reinforce their own preconceptions of what is, or what they would like to be.

[Fweethawt]

That's terrible, Fwee. My aunt was shot in the head when I was five by her boyfriend -- a nice, typical coke dealer.

 

I don't know what the murderer in my story did for a living. I do know that at the time of the murder, he was high and drunk. From what I heard, his wife turned him in when he came home with alcohol on his breath and blood on his clothes.

 

 

Why isn't there a God that stops bullets?

Can someone answer that question for me?

 

I mean, c'mon!

Superman can stop bullets, why can't God?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Fred,

 

Does it bother you that you are using excuses to cover all the inconsistencies in your belief?

 

 

Fred: My god does miracles for me.

 

Us: But what about the more important miracles that aren't being done?

 

Fred's excuse: My god is sleeping when it comes to the bigger miracles.

 

Us: And what about miracles claimed by other religions?

 

Fred's excuse: My miracles are really from god - miracles in other religions are from Satan or demons.

 

 

Upon what source are you basing your excuses? Or is this just your best guess at what's happening?

[Alice]

When I was a christian, there were two occasions I recall when I wondered if I had witnessed 'something miraculous'.

 

My Dad was 'healed' of a brain tumour in 1988. The tumour was very large when it was discovered and the medical diagnosis was that he had only months if not weeks to live - however they felt that there was some point in embarking on a course of radiotherapy - in an attempt to halt the growth of the tumour and give my Dad a few more months - possibly up to six months.

 

The treatment was accepted but at the same time the prayer letter machine started rolling and the elders turned up with the baby oil.

 

Half way through the treatment he had another scan and the tumour had completely disappeared.

 

The hospital staff were all amazed. The radiologist was visibly shaken. It was an amazing day - my Father was heavily into 'covenant' theology and when we left the appointment there was a vibrant rainbow arching over the hospital building. His consultant used the term 'miracle'.

 

He lived for another seven years after that - before a second tumour claimed him. I prayed half hearted prayers the first time - and full out 'I really believe you can do this prayers' - the second time.

 

The second story is this -

 

I was the social worker for a little girl who had been horribly abused by her mother and step father. Her paternal family were located and the plan was for her to be placed with an aunt. The aunt lived some distance away in a city I don't know at all. I was terribly stressed and disorganised at the time - and set out on an introductory visit for the child with her aunt with no map and no proper directions (I intended to buy a map enroute but stopped at three garages - ALL out of stock of the right map)

 

It's really important for introductory visits to go well - I started praying for help.

 

I left the motorway without a clue where I was going. At the first junction I came to I experienced pins and needles down one arm - my first thought was 'ohmigod -now I'm having a heart attack' - but this was followed by a strong feeling that I should turn left, as per the arm that was tingling. Having turned, my right arm started tingling - and this was accompanied by an urge to turn right. One part of me was believing that this was divine intervention - the other part was skeptical ... I remember praying something like ... 'ah hah - but what are you going to do if I need to straight over' at which point I experienced the same tingling down my back and into my butt. I navigated 11 miles and 9 turnings in this way and drew up outside the aunts house on time - without having had to retrace a single part of my route.

 

(I got totally lost on the way home)

 

When I recounted this expereince to my house group a few days later it was treated as a definite miracle.

 

This caused a major problem for me - you see when I located the little girls paternal grandparents they turned out to be pentecostal christians. They were a really lovely family. One of the first things her Grandma told me was how she had prayed that her granddaughter would be restored to them. She also told me how not a day went by that she didn't pray for the little girls protection.

 

But the reason she needed a social worker was because he step dad had been (amoungst other things) stubbing his cigarettes out on her chubby little legs.

 

Why did God answer the prayers of a scatty disorganised social worker who left home without a map and not the prayers of the Grandma?

 

Recently, as part of my big questioning - I told this story to my Mum. She said 'but you have been to that part of Birmingham once before' - apparently when I was about nine years old I'd been with them to attend a church service just a couple of miles away. I couldn't really remember it at all - although I did recall being car sick on a long journey someplace and she say's this was the occasion.

 

I guess I think now that the explanation for this lies in some part of my memory that I accessed that day. I prefer that explanation to thinking that God miraculously answered my prayer when he hadn't listened to the ones that mattered for this particular little girl.

[Ouroboros]

Well talking about the "strange ways of God", or "God does mysterious things".

 

In the first Church I belonged to, there were time for testimonies and I remember especially one of them.

 

This lady had broken her arm, and testified that she got to the hospital to cast the arm, and she had a chance to witness to one of the other patients. This was of course the acts of God to get to this patient and make her Christian.

 

My thought was (already that early in my walk with Jebus), why did God have to break her arm to make her go to the hospital, couldn't God just have told her, and she could just have walked there? It would have been less intrusive and destructive.

 

It's just like Jesus raising Lazarus. God has to hurt someone, so he can heal this someone so they can praise him for the healing.

 

My kids gets into fights, and the argument is always, who started. The one who started the fight usually has a bigger responsibility, and sometimes you can't know who did it. But when you do know, the person who started, has to end it. And of course the person should've never started at all. Now God he starts disaster willingly, and sometimes, if he feels like it, he might help a little bit to fix it.

 

He sends a tsunami and kills hundreds of thousands of people, and shows his mercy and powers only by showing how caring people can be to each other... is that really a miracle??? God! Don't frigging send a tsunami to begin with! You started the fight, and you shouldn't have!

[Ouroboros]

I don't know what the murderer in my story did for a living. I do know that at the time of the murder, he was high and drunk. From what I heard, his wife turned him in when he came home with alcohol on his breath and blood on his clothes.

Why isn't there a God that stops bullets?

Can someone answer that question for me?

 

I mean, c'mon!

Superman can stop bullets, why can't God?

Well didn't you know. Bullets are made by God. They are holy bullets. So they can't be stopped. Maybe we should ask the Devil instead?

[Caretaker]

To me Miracles are victories against unfavorable probabilities taken personally.

[Ouroboros]

ONE time in my mom's 25 year old marriage, a miracle did happen.... Praise God!  My male chauvenist step father DID THE DISHES!   Yes folks, he actually put them IN the dishwasher.  That to me was a sign from god above.

 

So that's why Hell is so cold today!!!

[Caretaker]

ONE time in my mom's 25 year old marriage, a miracle did happen.... Praise God!  My male chauvenist step father DID THE DISHES!   Yes folks, he actually put them IN the dishwasher.  That to me was a sign from god above.

Was this because the sink and counters were so full, that the only place he could put his Top Ramen bowl was the dishwasher?

[Guest FreestyleFred]

I obviously can't respond to everyones posts, but I will respond to some. Sorry if people get confused as to who made the posts...

 

Now that I know you are 17 I'll try not to be so snippy when I encounter your ignorance.

 

But holy heaps of turd Batman! At least read the Bible, before you try to go telling folks that were Christians longer than you've been alive, what's up.

I was not trying to tell them whats up, I simply asked where he had acquired the information. I was searching for information, which you gave to me. I never stated that he was incorrect in his statement, I simply asked for a source.

 

Sure, but I don't see you preachin' either.

How was I preaching? Is posting a rebutal to someone elses statements preaching? (assuming that you were referencing to me as being the one "preachin'"

 

You picked "sleeping" for your unaccountably uninvolved and uncaring Great Father.

I was not trying to make an excuse for God, I was simply trying to give an understanding for those with the argument of "Why doesn't God do huge physical miracles like the flood anymore?" If He was so uncaring, then there would be no good in the world. The world is a horrid and sickening place. (I also recognize myself as being almost sheltered in my small tourist town in NY, and I am truly thankful for not being in one of the worst places of the world) There is also much good in the world, that would be derived from God. (quite obviously a statement based upon my personal beliefs)

In your world, there is increasing pain and suffering, but there is no place where the good would come from, it is just there, and it is depleting. In my world good comes from God, and it is written that the world would increasingly get worse. I have something to look forward to at least, a better place. (Correct me if I am wrong on any of these points as well, for I am making assumptions about your personal beliefs)

 

If I could cry, I should be crying now that I know more about what your family has suffered.

I almost got tears in my eyes while reading it. I truly respect Hans for his will to survive and to push onward...as well as some of the other difficulties that many people have beared on this forum...

[Ouroboros]

In your world, there is increasing pain and suffering, but there is no place where the good would come from, it is just there, and it is depleting. In my world good comes from God, and it is written that the world would increasingly get worse. I have something to look forward to at least, a better place.

That at least is something I truly can say religion can offer that you hardly can get outside faith; the hope for a better world, in this or in the “next”. I can only hope to humanity’s strength and will to make the world better, but if it’s not there, and I see it missing, then my hope can only go to me, my family and the possibility of a future.

[Fweethawt]

Two comments from the same post...

1. The world is a horrid and sickening place.

2. There is also much good in the world

 

[Guest FreestyleFred]

I do believe in miracles Fred, I see them everyday. A miracle is that I am still alive, that I did not kill myself after years of medication and trying. A miracle is that I can find peace just by hearing wind blow through the trees. A miracle is that I do not know anyone who has been shot, murdered, in a horrific accident, or died a slow agonizing death (For anyone who I just mentioned, I am not trying to dramaticize, only make a point.) It will be a miracle if my fiancée can have children; she has a disease in her ovaries where they are damaged whenever she menstruates.

I too share some of those same miracles as you. I too went through years of medication for clinical depression, I went through multiple kinds, feeling like a test mouse. I too struggled with suicide, I was hospitalized for about 2 weeks (not a very long time, thankfully) because I was suicidal. It is a miracle that I am alive.

 

And buddy? I'm 17 also; I am getting ready to move out of my home. I have planned ahead so that I can take care of myself and my bride. No one on this board has a perfect life... and the post made by pitchu about drunks hit home other wise I would not be responding.

I am moving out in about a month. I am planning ahead as well, (I am not engaged yet, but quite obviously for my expectation that I will one day be wed) I work hard at my job to make money so I can support myself in college so that I may get the education in order to support a family, including myself. I pray that you have a good future ahead of you, and that you are able to leave the past pains behind you.

 

You see, the miracles you see... and that everyone else wants to see... are the ones that don't and can't happen. People don’t get healed, your god doesn’t step in and make bullets blanks, and he doesn’t put food on people’s tables or cure them of alchaholism.

I have heard a quite amazing testimony that did regard a miracle that you stated was impossible, it was about bullets becoming blanks. A guy, maybe in his mid 20s, told me one of the most amazing testimonies I believe I have ever heard. He had hunted a lot, I don't remember the details of the kind of gun or anything that he used, I just know that he had hunted a fair amount in his past. In all his hunting time he had never had a blank before. He became suicidal, he placed the gun to his head and pulled the trigger, it was a blank. Surely one could say that was coincidence, even though he had never gotten a blank before, it is obviously quite probable. He reloaded the gun and placed it to his head once again and pulled the trigger. Yet another blank. At that point he truly believed, and he never attempted suicide again.

(Talking to multiple people now, not just you) I understand your feelings, I was not posting my "miracles" as if they were the most amazing thing in the world, I simply was posting them because they somewhat astounded me personally. As I stated from the start is that they were situational. People keep attacking me and posting their life pains and stuggles, acting as if I stated that gas in my car, an ankle, and some shooting stars were the most amazing things I had ever seen, they are far from it. I apologize for people making the assumption that I hold these times in such high regards. I originally posted them as a reply to a question made asking me to post some physical miracles that I felt I had witnessed.

 

You all seem to continue to judge me, deeming me immature and ignorant continuously, expecting me to be a foolish teenager with the best life that goes out to the beach every day and plays. By these statements I am also not saying that I have had the worst life, I know and understand that I have had such an amazing life in contrast with the life of millions of others in the world. I understand that I have been sheltered throughout my childhood from the rest of the world and many of the pains of the world. I am not as unknowing as many of you seem to think I am. Often I may even deny some of the pains of the world, even knowing they are there-that is a personal flaw of mine, and sometimes I am forced to admit of the pain that lies out there in the world.

 

The next time you want to post something so petty as thanking your god for healing your ankle, making your car run farther, or making a few shooting stars appear, I would say to think about what a real miracle is.

I didn't start this thread. I didn't post these stating that they are amazing miracles. I believe the rest of my comments to this would also be located above.

 

He even went so far as to say something along the lines of, "You should be worried about saving your own ass before you worry about your wife's ass." His use of the word "ass" was a direct insult to my wife's condition if you are familiar with what those diseases actually damage within the body.

It sickens me to hear that someone would attack you and/or your wife like that. I am sorry to hear about her condition. But allow me to curtiously ask, is she not alive? Is it not better for her to have been able to have some form of control over her disease with medication than for her to have died? (my attempts at being more optimistic probably do not help in this situation, but I feel the need to post them.)

 

Why isn't there a God that stops bullets?

Can someone answer that question for me?

See testimony of person that I gave above.

[Amethyst]

I have heard a quite amazing testimony that did regard a miracle that you stated was impossible, it was about bullets becoming blanks. A guy, maybe in his mid 20s, told me one of the most amazing testimonies I believe I have ever heard. He had hunted a lot, I don't remember the details of the kind of gun or anything that he used, I just know that he had hunted a fair amount in his past. In all his hunting time he had never had a blank before. He became suicidal, he placed the gun to his head and pulled the trigger, it was a blank. Surely one could say that was coincidence, even though he had never gotten a blank before, it is obviously quite probable. He reloaded the gun and placed it to his head once again and pulled the trigger. Yet another blank. At that point he truly believed, and he never attempted suicide again.

 

Isn't it possible that being suicidal, he wasn't thinking clearly? I mean, be honest now. A housemate of mine killed himself by starting a fire, which he would not otherwise have done. People don't think clearly when they are about to kill themselves, and do things they wouldn't otherwise do, such as grab the wrong kind of bullets or something. It's only a miracle because you are looking for miracles. Yes, it's good that he didn't kill himself, but I would argue that perhaps there's another reason -- he didn't subconsciously want to die, and so his subconscious mind found a way out. That's not a supernatural event, study psychology if you don't believe me.

[Ouroboros]

You all seem to continue to judge me, deeming me immature and ignorant continuously, expecting me to be a foolish teenager with the best life that goes out to the beach every day and plays. By these statements I am also not saying that I have had the worst life, I know and understand that I have had such an amazing life in contrast with the life of millions of others in the world. I understand that I have been sheltered throughout my childhood from the rest of the world and many of the pains of the world. I am not as unknowing as many of you seem to think I am. Often I may even deny some of the pains of the world, even knowing they are there-that is a personal flaw of mine, and sometimes I am forced to admit of the pain that lies out there in the world.

 

I don't think I'm judging you, at least I'm trying not to, just because I've been in the same boat as you. And you didn't get immature or ignorant comments from me, since it takes a while before I hit someone with that. I think only two or three so far on this site, in total...

 

Miracles are more important to the person that gets them, because they only reaffirms his already established beliefs, and never contradicts them. You will never get a miracle that will prove to you that Buddhism is the true religion, or Islam or Judasim. So miracles, if such exists, are for you benefit only. Not saying that you shouldn't talk about them, but they will never be a proof for someone else that a certain deity exists.

 

For instance if I tell you I had a miracle, that the IPU (Invisible Pink Unicorn) suddenly made pancakes one morning. When I woke up, the pancakes were on the kitchen table, still hot. My wife is still sleeping and no one else is awake.

 

So this would be a perfect proof that the IPU made a miracle, but would this convince you? It would for me, if I believe in the IPU, but it wouldn't change your world view. Even worse, you probably would judge me instead, and tell me that it was the devil that did it, or maybe God did it to show himself to me. But you wouldn't concede to the point that the IPU did it...

 

Miracles are in essence a personal matter, which can be shared to other of same beliefs to give confirmation, but will result in denial from people of other beliefs.

That's just how it is...

[Guest FreestyleFred]

I would like to sincerely ask you Fred, what makes your miracle so special? Many in other religions have "miracles" that they believe confirms their faith. If any thing, perhaps it is a sign from the creator(s) that just believing is enough, not just one particular religion.

From your point of view, nothing would make them more special than that of an alleged miracle from other religious beliefs.

 

Fred,

 

Does it bother you that you are using excuses to cover all the inconsistencies in your belief?

 

 

Fred: My god does miracles for me.

 

Us: But what about the more important miracles that aren't being done?

 

Fred's excuse: My god is sleeping when it comes to the bigger miracles.

 

Us: And what about miracles claimed by other religions?

 

Fred's excuse: My miracles are really from god - miracles in other religions are from Satan or demons.

 

 

Upon what source are you basing your excuses? Or is this just your best guess at what's happening?

-Yes, He has done miracles for me in the past.

-What about the important miracles that are being done?

-Not exactly with bigger miracles, my reference was moreso towards more physical see with own two eyes style. (which is why I used the flood and the parting of the Red Sea as examples)

-Never said miracles in other religions are from Satan or demons, that would simply be my personal explanation for these situations. If another one of that religious belief wished to make an explanation of these miracles and as to why they belong to their religious belief only, then I would surely listen.

If someone came up to you with logical evidence that the world was flat, I am estimating that your original assumption would be that they are incorrect, but in all open-mindedness you may listen to their explanation of this evidence, but you would still have that presupposition of your facts. I feel the Bible is fact, and I feel the Christian God is fact, therefore I would have already made presuppositions, which would not make me closed minded, what would make me closed minded is if I wasn't willing to listen to those explaining their "miracles".

 

I didn't realize there were two earths? Unless by the word "world" you mean "reality". It's kind of offensive when Christians draw the line, "my world" and "your world", as though every thing that is deplorable comes from the unbelievers. It draws a line of intolerance and hatred, and is completely inaccurate.

 

Basically, you think that anything "good" comes from God because humans are incapable of nothing but evil and bad? So if God were to withdraw, the world would just be a cesspool of evil? What a bleak outlook.

By world I do not literally mean world, nor do I mean reality. By saying world I meant basically within their beliefs and viewpoints of the world around them. Such differences in the beliefs of two people can make the way they look at the world quite different.

Yes, I do think anything "good" comes from God, but I do not think humans are incapable of nothing but evil and bad. Humans are capable of both good and evil. Good is derived from God, evil is derived from Satan. But yes, if God were to completely withdraw, the world would be a cesspool of evil, basically like Hell in my assumptions.

 

Isn't it possible that being suicidal, he wasn't thinking clearly? I mean, be honest now. A housemate of mine killed himself by starting a fire, which he would not otherwise have done. People don't think clearly when they are about to kill themselves, and do things they wouldn't otherwise do, such as grab the wrong kind of bullets or something. It's only a miracle because you are looking for miracles. Yes, it's good that he didn't kill himself, but I would argue that perhaps there's another reason -- he didn't subconsciously want to die, and so his subconscious mind found a way out. That's not a supernatural event, study psychology if you don't believe me.

I get your standpoint, and yes, he may not have been thinking clearly. But would he have not noticed some form of error in his attempts later on in the future? Even if it was a subconscious error, could it not still be attributed to a God that these errors occured? Just throwing more ideas out there...

[Guest FreestyleFred]

I don't think I'm judging you, at least I'm trying not to, just because I've been in the same boat as you. And you didn't get immature or ignorant comments from me, since it takes a while before I hit someone with that. I think only two or three so far on this site, in total...

You aren't one of the ones I was really referring to. You have been very respectful to me and my beliefs, and I feel I have shown the same respect back to you with your own.

 

I do agree with the rest of your post, and you are 100% correct on them. It does only reaffirm your own belief. I feel that there may be some exceptions, for example if an extreme Bible prophecy were to be fullfilled...say, the rapture for example, that would be a more proving and convincing "miracle" would it not? Which leads me to a question for many of those on here. I know many of you are quite knowledgeable of the Bible and what it states. Now, if the tribulation period were to begin and along with it the Rapture occured, would you once again become a Christian? Would that be proof to you? If not, then why would it not be proof?

[chefranden]

Where do people get to where they feel so entitled?

 

Oh yea,    the part in the Bible that says women are to submit.  That clause makes them permanent slaves.

 

Here is a place to find out about it: The Culture of Make Believe, Derrick Jensen

 

Here is a place to find out what to do about it: Clueless at the Top by CHARLOTTE CHILDRESS, HARRIET CHILDRESS

[Ouroboros]

You aren't one of the ones I was really referring to. You have been very respectful to me and my beliefs, and I feel I have shown the same respect back to you with your own.

 

I do agree with the rest of your post, and you are 100% correct on them. It does only reaffirm your own belief. I feel that there may be some exceptions, for example if an extreme Bible prophecy were to be fullfilled...say, the rapture for example, that would be a more proving and convincing "miracle" would it not? Which leads me to a question for many of those on here. I know many of you are quite knowledgeable of the Bible and what it states. Now, if the tribulation period were to begin and along with it the Rapture occured, would you once again become a Christian? Would that be proof to you? If not, then why would it not be proof?

You're correct. If the rapture would happen, or the New Jerusalem would be floating down from the sky with Jesus as it's master, it would truly change my conceptions.

 

And also if Mohammed would be coming back too, provenly born from a man, then both you and I would have to convert to Islam.

 

If the tribulation starts, and the mark of the beast etc, that would still be slightly weak to support a conversion, since it seems that some Christians tend to work for this to happen rather than fight it (Dubya working on the national ID card, with possible RFIDs). Which only makes sense, since they truly want the Revelation to come true. But if people force those events to happen, it's more proof of the religious people's will to enact and self-fulfill the prophesis, than the prophesis being told by God.

[Caretaker]

You aren't one of the ones I was really referring to. You have been very respectful to me and my beliefs, and I feel I have shown the same respect back to you with your own.

 

I do agree with the rest of your post, and you are 100% correct on them. It does only reaffirm your own belief. I feel that there may be some exceptions, for example if an extreme Bible prophecy were to be fullfilled...say, the rapture for example, that would be a more proving and convincing "miracle" would it not? Which leads me to a question for many of those on here. I know many of you are quite knowledgeable of the Bible and what it states. Now, if the tribulation period were to begin and along with it the Rapture occured, would you once again become a Christian? Would that be proof to you? If not, then why would it not be proof?

Yes, the name of this site suggests that some may be still bitter with Christianity, so some may be all to ready to jump down Christians' throats. I'm not one of them, as I really wasn't hurt by Christianity.

 

If a rapture were to occur, it will prove to me that something supernatural exists, but not necessarily Christianity. I mean, the existence of God is one thing, while the attributes given to him are another. For all I know, maybe God did inspire the Bible and Christianity is right on, or maybe he inspired the Bible to see how gullible people were. Maybe he could have inspired the Bible as a practical joke on Satan, or maybe vice versa. Or maybe it is the Islamic rapture.

 

With all these interpretations of the Bible, it is hard to say which one is true.

[Guest FreestyleFred]

If the tribulation starts, and the mark of the beast etc, that would still be slightly weak to support a conversion, since it seems that some Christians tend to work for this to happen rather than fight it (Dubya working on the national ID card, with possible RFIDs). Which only makes sense, since they truly want the Revelation to come true. But if people force those events to happen, it's more proof of the religious people's will to enact and self-fulfill the prophesis, than the prophesis being told by God.

Quite true. But, it is also obvious that not everything within Revelation can be forced to happen. (namely the natural disasters) So if people of the world were forcing things to happen in order to fullfill the prophecy, they would mess up the order of the seals and the order to which the prophecies were supposed to be fullfill, thus it would disprove the prophecies as perfect.

[Guest FreestyleFred]

If a rapture were to occur, it will prove to me that something supernatural exists, but not necessarily Christianity. I mean, the existence of God is one thing, while the attributes given to him are another. For all I know, maybe God did inspire the Bible and Christianity is right on, or maybe he inspired the Bible to see how gullible people were. Maybe he could have inspired the Bible as a practical joke on Satan, or maybe vice versa. Or maybe it is the Islamic rapture.

 

With all these interpretations of the Bible, it is hard to say which one is true.

The only error in that thinking is that if the Christian rapture were to occur, it would be Christians taken away. I am not informed of the Islamic rapture, but if it is similar to the Christian one, then if it were to occur it would leave the Christians all still here. So by looking at whom was taken up, then one could make a fairly informed decision as to which rapture it may have been.

 

Yes, it is sad to see all these different interpretations. A lot of it spawns from foolish denominations that can only seperate...(a whole different debate in itself) Thus, I choose to remain a non-denominational Christian.